Racist or Not?

[daleduke17]

http://pantagraph.com/articles/2009/05/14/money/doc4a0adaccdaebc454444950.txt

I call this a racist bullshit. If white folks did this, like some commenters said, all of the "talking heads" from all over would be on this screaming racism.

Also, why is this even news? Aren't there enough REAL stories to cover instead of this tripe?

[crazylegs]

Of course it's racism, they're deciding to descriminate against a business purely on the colour of the owners skin.

[Greenday]

It's pretty racist alright, but it's not like you can tell someone where they can and can't shop. If they want to not shop somewhere because the owner is white, that is there right.

I do think if a large group of white people did this and announced it so publically, they'd be all over the media as horrible racists instead of progressive people.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I dunno. On the surface, yeah, it looks racist. But I think the motivation changes it. They aren't discriminating against white folks per se, they are trying to support black business and see how that goes. I see it more as an experiment or a social statment than anything else.

What if they were white and supporting only black owned businesses?

[kiwi]

What if they were white and supporting only black owned businesses?

but what if they were white and only supported white businesses?

I think that while the intention is good, it is actually incredibily racist in action.

You should not judge a business by the colour of the owner.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

But see, that's exactly my point. Nowhere does it suggest that they have a problem with white owned businesses. If they were racist and hated whites, and the article said as much, then yeah. Racist and nasty. But that does not seem to be the motive.

While I agree that race should not be a deciding factor in choosing who or who not to do business with, I think I am understanding that their motives are not based on who NOT to do business with, if that made sense. My understanding of it is that they are trying to put more dollars into black owned business to encourage it to thrive and grow.

I mean, the Chinese in the US have been doing it forever and nobody says anything about that. They are Chinese immigrants sticking together to support other Chinese immigrants. What is the difference?

(I can't believe I'm on the "racist side" of this debate.) :o

[Greenday]

Just because they word it different doesn't change what they are doing. What's left unsaid means just as much as what is said. Saying they are only going to buy from other black people is no different than saying they are never going to buy from white people.

[Cats]

I would also say it's racist. As for the intent? Sorry, not buying it. While the cause may seem noble on the surface, at the end of the day, I don't care about the skin color or the ethnic background of the pepole who own the buisnesses which I patronize. I care about the buisness practices.

Okay, so they're trying to put more dollars into the black buisness community. What's the point? A buisness isn't good or bad based only on the color of the people who run it. If a white person decided to only shop at white buisnesses to support their community (which is NO different) pepole would be SCREAMING racism (and as a white person myself, I'm not going to be a hypocrite, I would consider it so). Hey, it's the same type of cause, is it not? If it's racism if a white person does it, it's racist if any other demographic does it too.

I will say, however, that I don't think they're trying to be racist, and may not realize they are being so.

But on an ending note either way, when are pepole FINALLY going to listen to MLK and judge not by skin color but the content of character?

[Slytovhand]

Is it racist to buy American only? Is it racist to want to support your own country/team/group/state/city/whatever??

Is patriotism a form of racism?

I see what's happening in Fiji, and totally get it. Fiji has had a massive intake of Indian immigrants, to the point that now they have a very high percentage of Indians in their parliament, and they've been passing bills that help their fellow indian nationals, to the detriment of the born and bred native Fijians... so, the Fijian army (the majority of which is native Fijian) held a coup d'etat. (and, of course, the rest of the world screamed "You can't do that! It's undemocratic!!!")

So... racist? I understand why it's being suggested, but it's not much different to the way we normally do our business... we want to support someone with similar ideas/attitudes/beliefs/backgrounds as our own. This one just happens to be based on skin colour (and culture!!!) rather than, say... Yankees vs Dodgers... or Chelsea vs Arsenal supporters.

[Flyndaran]

Is it racist to buy American only? Is it racist to want to support your own country/team/group/state/city/whatever??

Is patriotism a form of racism?
....

Umm no. Racism is judging based on race. What you describe is nationalism.
In general I don't like any form of "-ism".

Also different nations have very different forms of product oversight. Product are different based on where they were made. Just look at the whole issue with poisonous crap made in China that would never have been allowed to be made in most other countries.

[Slytovhand]

Damn... yeah, ok. Shoulda said "Is patriotism a form of discrimination?"... is that better?? :)

[Flyndaran]

Damn... yeah, ok. Shoulda said "Is patriotism a form of discrimination?"... is that better?? :)

I would say that in theory, yes it is. In reality with large nations like the U.S. having so many unique cutlural regions, it's hard not to wander into racism or at least culturism when talking patriotism.

Besides, I consider patriotism as it is usually used, a delusion. No country is even in the ballpark of perfect, so it's a little silly to yell your love of one.
Rather than obsess over your nations' good ponits, try fixing their bad points.
That kind of patriotism I can get behind.

[protege]

It's good to see that racism is still alive and well in this country :rolleyes:

Seriously, this is no different than if white people decided to only support white-owned businesses. If that was the case, you'd have blood in the streets, and every media outlet would be screaming about it. Yet, this is OK? It's still racist, no matter *how* you look at it.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Because white is the majority, not the minority.

Let's put a different spin on this. Is it racism when Italian Americans did it/are still doing it? Italians are now considered white. They have not always been, but now they are. They look like everyone else, mostly, so when they do exactly what the folks in the OP's story is doing, is it racism? It's not based on skin color or appearance, it's based on culture.

So I guess what I'm asking is this: if black people blended into the majority the same as Italians (or Irish or Polish, or any other race once considered non-white in this country) would you still call it racist?

[DesignFox]

The guy refused to go to the doctor to take care of his stomach problems because the only doctor in the area is white.

The mother refuses to take the daughter to get a replacement earring because she can't buy that earring from a black person.

THAT'S clear racism.

I'm sorry, but there is no reason to be choosing where you buy stuff based on the skin color of the owner. Personally, I rarely know or care who owns the business as long as the service I get is good. If the service is bad, I don't go back there. Simple!

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, you know, that's a very good point. If they are saying "well, all other things being equal, I'm going to go with the black vendor to support black business in my community", that's a very different thing than saying "If my only option here is to business with whites, I'd rather, say, suffer my stomach problem."

Because then it's not specifically supporting a certain kind of business. It's a boycott of the other business.

Okay. You guys win. :D

[Boozy]

Racism to me implies more than just a desire to see your own (historically subjugated) race succeed. It implies a desire to see other races fail, or at least, achieve less than your own race.

This is clearly discrimination by its definition, but I don't see any malice here.

[powerboy]

Yes that is racism. If any other race done that. Then they would be labeled racist.

[Slytovhand]

The guy refused to go to the doctor to take care of his stomach problems because the only doctor in the area is white.

The mother refuses to take the daughter to get a replacement earring because she can't buy that earring from a black person.

THAT'S clear racism.

I'm sorry, but there is no reason to be choosing where you buy stuff based on the skin color of the owner. Personally, I rarely know or care who owns the business as long as the service I get is good. If the service is bad, I don't go back there. Simple!

Yeah, I'll pay that. BUT... just because those individuals chose that, doesn't mean that the concept is 'racist'. (not unless you want to start classifying any form of personal preference as discriminatory.

[DesignFox]

<snip>...doesn't mean that the concept is 'racist'. (not unless you want to start classifying any form of personal preference as discriminatory.

Well. Let's just say, as a white person, I prefer to go to white doctors. So, you're saying it wouldn't be racist for me to start a movement for all white people to start only going to white doctors? Because you know, we're supporting our own community.

I don't think so. Anyone who didn't know me would read that above paragraph and instantly label me a racist.

Having a personal preference is one thing. Taking your preference and creating a nation-wide "awareness" campaign is quite another.

[Slytovhand]

Is there a difference between 'Black' and 'African-American'? Is there a difference between 'white' and 'Italian/Irish/English/Dutch/German/etc etc'? So, if Italians can stick to their own community, and wish to see Italian-backgrounded business people, and Irish-Americans are can do the same to support 'the old home', why not 'African-Americans'?

Also, this campaign is pointing out a glaringly obvious socio-economic bias within the American nation... while African-Americans* make up 13.5% of the population, but they don't figure so high when it comes down to business ownership. In 2004, 24.7% of African-American families lived below the poverty level.[39] In 2007, the average African-American income was $33,916, compared with $54,920 for whites.[40] (Oprah) Winfrey remains the only African American wealthy enough to rank among the country's 400 richest people. (Wiki copy and pastes). If (hypothetically) an organisation was set up to help African-Americans stay out of prison and the criminal-justice system (for which they are highly over-represented given population rates), would that also be considered 'racist'?


Or, is it addressing a specific social situation??


(* personally, I don't really like the term 'African-American'. I don't use the term 'English-Australian', and I'm damn sure that most other cultures don't use similar epithets... now, if a person came from Africa, say only a couple of years ago, sure! But, when you're looking at 200 or 400 years ago, and have absolutely no links to your previous nation of heritage... let it go... please!)

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Okay. Here is where I"m going to get branded as a racist. Which is ironcic, considering what side of the argument I started out on.

I would say that the reason this concept is being now branded as racist is because the large majority of people who play the race card are black.

There. I said it.

Italians, Irish, Poles, etc. are now considered white because they insisted on being considered white and fought for that distinction. Blacks do not do that. Blacks CANNOT do that, most of them don't blend into the white population as easily as their Eastern European ("Black" European, historically) counterparts.

Go over to CS and see how many of the race card stories involve African Americans as opposed to any other race. I'm not saying nobody else does it, they do. But when you think "race card" you think "person of black african descent." So when that group does anything that can be considered racist, everyone jumps on them as hypocrites, and in many case, rightly so. (And, in my experience, nobody gets madder at them about that as other black folks.)

An Italian or Jewish person does it, nobody bats an eye. Because those are "white" people and they are simply suipporting their own community. A black person does it, well, they are then branded as just as racist as they claim everyone else is.

Just my two cents.

[Greenday]

An Italian or Jewish person does it, nobody bats an eye.

I don't know of any Italians who do that, as I've never heard of anyone in my area doing it.

But the Jews definitely do it here. ESPECIALLY the ones from New York that come down to the Jersey Shore for the summer. Those pricks are ruthlessly mean to non-Jews. They used to make my co-workers cry. So I'd get them back by telling them I was Jewish and that I could help them. Then after helping them, I'd let them know I was a Methodist Christian. Oh the rage that ensued.

In short, in my area, we hate HATE the New York Jews that treat the non-Jews like crap and only buy from other Jews.

[DesignFox]

Just to point out- people in the Jewish community, Italian community, etc. don't go to the media saying, "Hey look at us! We're supporting our own community!"

That's a distinct difference, too.

[AFPheonix]

Last time I got the race card pulled it was a middle-eastern man. v:(v

[crazylegs]

This is clearly discrimination by its definition, but I don't see any malice here.

Racism is acting in a prejudicial manner based purely on the ground of race.

There doesn't have to be malice involved, ignorance can be a significant factor as well.

The simple fact of the matter is they are treating another person less favourably simply because of the colour of their skin, and this is racism.

Imagine a world. A world where there are two equal shops of every type. The stores sell identical products, at identical prices, with identical levels of service. One company is staffed only by African-Carribean staff, the other by North European staff.

If I chose to patronise the stores (of all types) simply because they were staffed by North European, then I am treating a race less favourably simply because of their race.

If one store is closer than another, or cheaper, or has better service and chose them on those grounds then I am being objective in my choice, I am not allowing my prejudices to cloud my judgement, and act in an unfair way.

Stores should be shopped in based on their individual merits, not on the basis of the colour of the skin of their owners.

[Slytovhand]

Stores should be shopped in based on their individual merits

Following on...

I walk into a store, right next to the other that sells the exact same stuff, at the exact same prices. It's somewhere in the US or UK.

The one on the right is staffed by Aussies. The one on the left by Americans or Poms.

Neither staff at either store are rude, nor ignorant.

I still want to go to the Aussie store.

When I go to the Aussie store, I get a "G'day mate, how you going? How's back home?" etc etc.
Individual merit includes such subtle things such as how you're going to be treated. There is a slight difference in how you are treated.

I suspect many African-Americans would agree with me..(of course, many would also be lying or exaggerating certain experiences), hence the site.

[DesignFox]

Following on...

I walk into a store, right next to the other that sells the exact same stuff, at the exact same prices. It's somewhere in the US or UK.

The one on the right is staffed by Aussies. The one on the left by Americans or Poms.

Neither staff at either store are rude, nor ignorant.

I still want to go to the Aussie store.

When I go to the Aussie store, I get a "G'day mate, how you going? How's back home?" etc etc.
Individual merit includes such subtle things such as how you're going to be treated. There is a slight difference in how you are treated.

I suspect many African-Americans would agree with me..(of course, many would also be lying or exaggerating certain experiences), hence the site.

And in this instance, I'm not saying there's anything wrong in having a personal preference. But when you refuse to help yourself or your baby because there isn't an Aussie to help you, that would be racist.

If you don't go to the corner store because the owner is white- even though there isn't any place else you could go that isn't owned by someone white- thats racist.

Does my position make sense now?

[Slytovhand]

I thought I threw that caveat in somewhere..?? Oh well.

Yes, I agree... if your willing to hurt yourself or others in your control to avoid someone just based on skin colour??? Crap!!

(though, that thought does make me wonder... what if it's based on religious beliefs rather than skin colour??)

[daleduke17]

I thought I threw that caveat in somewhere..?? Oh well.

Yes, I agree... if your willing to hurt yourself or others in your control to avoid someone just based on skin colour??? Crap!!

(though, that thought does make me wonder... what if it's based on religious beliefs rather than skin colour??)


Now, if it is Kosher related, then I am a bit more ok with supporting based on religious grounds (Kosher is hella hard and important to the Jewish community if you didn't already know).

But, like someone else said, the Jewish community (along with the Italians, Arabic and others) don't really make a big deal out of shopping only at *insert descriptor here* stores.

[unholypet]

Out of curiosity, I went on their Facebook page. Read their links, read their supportive words, and even looked around my own town the next day, for black business owners.

I found two (living in a small town makes it hard to find ANYTHING), and was warmly greeted in one like the lady behind the counter has known me all my life, and was looked at strangely in the other, with the women working never making eye contact until the change was returned with a sneer. I bought some eggs in the first farmer store, and some neat little hairpins the second weave store. Yeah, strange for a white girl to be in a weave store (or at least it is here), but the women made me feel like I didn't belong.

That night, I went back to the Facebook and asked to join with a message, which read:

I really like the two stores nearby, even if one's workers made me feel uncomfortable (they had fabulous hair accessories I've never seen!). I'd like to join you group and show support for the stores, and leave some local map instructions for anyone else who wants to visit them, thanks!


Denied membership! I really was expecting to get denied, but they obviously don't need my support =p

Is that racist of them? Because I'm white I can't join?

EDIT: I went back and posted the above after I rejoined, and mailed the admins asking if I can stay joined.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

The dividing line for me is that judging on color is pointless, as that has more or less nothing neccissarily to do with culture anymore. Nationality, when taken beyond the point of 'What kind of culture do they have?' is equally stupid since plenty of untraditional people live everywhere.

Judging on culture is okay with me so long as you don't take it past what it is. Don't assume everything about someone going in because they are Italian, German, American etc. but keep in mind what kind of world they may live in and what kinds of people they might live around.

Meanwhile we have the ever increasing sense of culture being independant of everything except interests:

Bikers, gamers, sky divers, paintballers, hunters, film students, military enthusiests, furries, and countless others are starting to associate more with each other than with people who just happen to also be from Virginia, or Sweden, who may have grown up to be short, or whose skin has as much pigment.

[Slytovhand]

Unholy, did they give you a reason for denying you?

And did I read you correctly that you re-applied, and were then accepted? Or what??

But yes, that would, I think, certainly be racists. I mean, supporting one group over another (whether 'legitimately' or not, as Wingates pointed out) is one thing, but that's different to accepting people or not - in general situations. (I can see specific situations...).

It would also be rather foolish of them.... there is a fair amount of publicity surrounding this - turning someone down based on race isn't going to get them any browny points, and may lead to crap hitting their fan! (of course, they can always counter with "But that's what happens to us, and happened legally for a couple of centuries".... which is countered with "Great - so grow up, get with the times, and don't do back what was done to you - revenge of that sort just isn't needed!")

[MystyGlyttyr]

I just don't understand how this works because I don't understand what they mean by "black" businesses. I still don't quite grasp the concept of race. When I was younger I just thought it was an indicator of what particular shade of tan your skin was. Then it's what country you're from. Then it's what culture you're from. Then it's fuck I don't know I give up.

I mean, if I look at a person and see that they are substantially darker than most other people I've seen, then I assume they're probably black. If I find out later that they're actually Arab or just hitting the bronzer too hard, well...whatever. It's all just a collection of chromosomes and skin chemicals anyway.

How are they defining a black business exactly? Is it purely that the owner has to be black, even if all the employees are something else? Is it that the majority of the employees are black? I mean, if you have two offices, one owned by a black person but with 20 white employees, and one owned by a white person with 20 black employees, which one is the black business?

But then again, I completely misunderstood the controversy a while back about the labels of Master/Slave terminals in computers because I spent almost a year thinking that whole thing was because someone got too sensitive about BDSM...so I guess we have to consider the source.

[Slytovhand]

OT, but still... Mysty reminds me of when they changed that from Master/Slave drives, to Main and secondary (and Mainboards from Motherboards...). What's really silly about it, is effectively that's the type of relationship those 2 drives have!


On topic... humans still feel the need to identify with others. ("Yes, we are all individuals". "I'm not")

[Flyndaran]

I... I still don't quite grasp the concept of race. ....

That's because it doesn't really exist. It's a purely social construct and humanity's need to label.
Genetically there is more difference between two dark africans, than between either one of them and a white guy.
Genetically, middle eastern jews and arabs are indistinguishable.

[DesignFox]

<snip> I still don't quite grasp the concept of race. <snip>

More power to you. If more of us thought this way, we'd have a few less problems in society. :)

Actually, re-reading this, it reminded me of when I was a kid and I didn't understand the concept of "race" either. But, I've always been fairly innocent, one could almost say, too trusting and gullible when it all comes down to it. I never thought badly of anyone for any reason- unless they directly were mean to me.

Working with the public has slapped all that out of me. (although I do acknowledge my various prejudices and do my best to ignore them or disprove them to myself or at the very least not verbalize them)

*sigh*

If people at least didn't act on their prejudices things would be a step in the right direction.

[anriana]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lizhenry/3185596306/in/set-72157612897466679/

Top right.

[daleduke17]

More power to you. If more of us thought this way, we'd have a few less problems in society. :)


I think like that, but I had holy hell raised at me this past November by doing that. It was because I was thinking like that and NOT making a big deal about race.

So, damned if you do....damned if you don't.

[unholypet]

Unholy, did they give you a reason for denying you?

And did I read you correctly that you re-applied, and were then accepted? Or what??


Yeah, they did re-accept me, and then kicked me out AGAIN last week. No mails or notices, and I sent another questioning message via Facebook.

[thelong1]

Wow, this is certainly an interesting thread and people really have a lot of insightful, intelligent things to say about it. I think everyone agrees that its discrimination at least, but isn't racism just a form of discrimination? What is the difference between prejudice, racism, and discrimination? Scale?

[DesignFox]

Wow, this is certainly an interesting thread and people really have a lot of insightful, intelligent things to say about it. I think everyone agrees that its discrimination at least, but isn't racism just a form of discrimination? What is the difference between prejudice, racism, and discrimination? Scale?

Interesting question. I'm not going to go with the textbook definitions. I'm going to go with what each of those things means to me.

Prejudice- a mild form of well..pre-judgement. It means that I've made up my mind about the person without even talking to them. Just on a glance I think I know what I need to and (although I really really make an effort NOT to) I may act accordingly.

This often happens in my sales job. Because not being able to make a split second decision about someone CAN cost me more than it earns me. (and yes, sometimes I'm WRONG. either in a way that benefits me, or hurts me)

Racism- to me, is judging someone based solely on the color of their skin or their religion. It can go hand in hand with prejudice, but to me is more extreme because you aren't taking in any other information- just the fact that their skin tone is lighter or darker, or that they worship a different ideal of "god" than you.

To me, someone can be prejudiced without being a racist.

As for discrimination- this is an outright action based on prejudice or racism. Without any other information other than that which is presented on first meeting you are acting in a certain manner towards another person. It doesn't necessarily have to be a "bad" thing, but it certainly can be.

Everyone deserves a chance. I think we all can agree. But there are certain situations where one can't necessarily be blamed for taking a first glance and saying, "aw hell no." (i.e. reports of a bad neighborhood, so not going around there alone at night...or seeing someone with a shirt that has a derogatory slogan and so not talking to them because you don't agree, etc.)

To me, what these people are doing is racist, because they are flat out refusing to do things based on the color of another person's skin.

I'll use my own example of a personal prejudice that I have. I am a woman. And when I go to the OBGYN, I prefer to see a woman. I'm sorry. Personally, I feel that if you're gonna poke around my girly-bits, you outta have a set of your own or else you can't really be sympathetic.

Now. If I got sick, and there were absolutely ZERO female OBGYN doctors or certified nurse mid-wives, I wouldn't REFUSE to see a male. I mean, obviously, he had to go to med-school. He must know his shit or else he wouldn't have that DM after his name.

But given a choice, I see a woman.

The people in the OP? Well, the guy refuses to go to the doctor because he can only see a white doctor.

The woman won't buy another earring for her poor baby girl because no jewelers in the area are black.

They aren't making a decision based on a preference. They are flat-out refusing to care for themselves just because the only people that can help them are white.

THAT'S the difference to me.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

DesignFox.. all I have to say is: YES!! :D

But in addition to that, and I'm not directing this at anyone, but it's important to remember that while race has no scientific basis, it does have a social basis in that there are people of every 'ethnic background' that choose to perpetuate the racial divide.

If you want to help make the world 'colorblind'? All you have to do is BE what you WANT... be an example and encourage others to follow suit.

[thelong1]

DesignFox...well said. I thought that "As for discrimination- this is an outright action based on prejudice or racism." was also a great concept. I think you're right. People can have racist thoughts about someone but it doesn't seem like you can have really discriminatory thoughts. "I think I'm not going to let them rent that apartment because they are (race/gender/age/religion/sexual orientation)". I think the action part is the key difference. Its not really discrimination if it doesn't happen, but it can be racist or prejudicial behavior without having an action or having to happen.

[Flyndaran]

Yeah, they did re-accept me, and then kicked me out AGAIN last week. No mails or notices, and I sent another questioning message via Facebook.

And right they were. They could have caught teh white!