Abortion Rights for Fathers?

[AdminAssistant]

Greenday brought this up in another thread.

Let's say we've got an unmarried couple, who have unprotected sex, and pregnancy results. The father has zero say in whether or not the mother chooses to keep the child or terminate the pregnancy.

I absolutely 100% agree with this. There are situations when a woman might be forced to become pregnant, but not want to be. There are rape and incest cases where the woman would be otherwise forced to carry the child to term (this is why I'm against parental notification).

Besides, at that point, (speaking as a woman) this is MY body and only I get to decide what happens to it. Giving the father of the embryo rights harkens back to the days when women were men's property.

[McDreidel09]

I believe it is the woman's choice. If they want to talk it over with their partner, then they should be able to. Forcing a woman to get consent from the father of the child is not right IMHO. In some cases, the woman does not know who the father is. Some were raped by someone they didn't know, or they don't want to tell the father of the baby about it.

Personally, I would not get an abortion, but I don't care if someone else does. That's not my business.

[Slytovhand]

Continuing the argument then, if there was a previous agreement about no kids, and she gets pregnant (even 1 in a million chance sort of thing... all precautions taken - except for, you know, not actually having the sex in the first place!), and he wants one thing, and she wants another... in this case, she wants to keep the child.

So - question... what responsibility should he be forced to take in regards to said child and the mother? Should he be required to pay to help them live?

If he's got no rights at all in regards to the abortion or adoption of the child, shouldn't he at least have this one right... to give up all rights from that time on for that child?

[Greenday]

Honestly, I don't know what limits or boundaries to put in place to make it equally fair for both the man and the woman. And in all likelihood, there is absolutely no way to make it so it is equally fair.

If the man wants the child, but the woman does not, you cannot force her to carry the the baby to term.

If the woman wants the child, but the man does not, you shouldn't be able to force him to completely alter his life from what, in some cases, may be extremely promising to nothing. If I'm not living my life to the fullest potential, I'm wasting it. And if I have safe sex and do everything to have fun while using protection and still get a girl pregnant, unless she is the one I'm meant to be with, then I'm not giving up my life. Is that selfish? Damn right it is. If I'm not living my life for ME, why waste my time living as a mindless drone?

[AFPheonix]

It's kind of a patient's rights issue. I'm the one that's going to have to have the procedure, so ultimately it's my call.

As for child support, at that point, it really shouldn't be about who wanted what, it should be about the welfare of this now existing human being who is going to need assistance for a certain number of years. I would hope that couples would be adult enough to be able to talk about the whole issue, that the female would be willing to not accept child support if she was able to go it alone or the father would be willing to provide it in the interest of the person that is now half his.

Thankfully, since not all couples can manage grown-up conversations, courts can help measure out those sticky situations.

[Greenday]

Kinda stretching it, but according the Decleration of Independence, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. Forcing a man to give up his life definitely takes away his right to the persuit of happiness.

[Sylvia727]

Nobody forced the guy to have unprotected sex. If the woman lied about or sabotaged the birth control, then that's entrapment and he should have the right to surrender all rights and responsibilities, but if a couple has an unplanned pregnancy, then the guy should absolutely be held at least as responsible as the gal. I say "at least" because men tend to have more earning power than women. No man has the right to be a deadbeat dad (or woman to be a deadbeat mom, but that's much less common). It doesn't matter that he wasn't ready-- maybe she wasn't ready either, but she's having the same responsibilities as him.

A man has no right to force a woman to undergo an abortion, both because it is a surgical procedure and because it is a moral right. If he doesn't want kids, he needs to take responsibility for his own life and wear a condom or get snipped. If he trusts the woman to take her pills, and she forgets or they don't work, that's a shame, but it doesn't absolve him. He let her do both their jobs of birth control; that doesn't lessen his responsibility. On the flip side, if a woman aborts and her partner believes in life before birth, then that's a horrible and avoidable tragedy. Make sure your partner shares your beliefs before you risk pregnancy.

Biologically, women have the greater control over the reproductive process, and it will be pretty damn hard for science to change this, not just in individuals but across all of society. I can't feel bad for men, though, since this means that women have the greater burden of childcare, which drives many single mothers into poverty. And if one looks at history, pregnancy is the main, if not the only, reason women were/are disenfranchised. In many cultures both historical and modern, women were/are seen as nothing more than broodmares and servants, and it boils down to the fact that women are biologically tied down with pregnancies, and because of that they are socially tied down with childcare. If it takes a while for men to receive reproductive equality, step back and look at how long it took for women to begin to receive economic equality, and we're still not there.

[Boozy]

Forcing a man to give up his life definitely takes away his right to the persuit of happiness.

Until government agents start holding guns to the heads of men and forcing them to ejaculate into fertile women's vaginas, no one is "forcing" men to do anything at all.

Courts don't have the ability to force anything of a father other than paying child support. And that is scaled to the size of the man's paycheque.

There are consequences to having vaginal intercourse. If you honestly feel that a pregnancy would destroy your life, then don't ejaculate near a woman's vagina.

[Greenday]

Courts don't have the ability to force anything of a father other than paying child support. And that is scaled to the size of the man's paycheque.

Yea, not always. I could be going to school to be a doctor, which would make lots of money. The court could tell me I have to quit and get a permanent full-time job or get rich quick, otherwise I could go to jail. I still believe looking out for number 1 is much more important.

[DesignFox]

Y<snip>I still believe looking out for number 1 is much more important.

No offense, Greenday, but don't have sex then. That is not a fair burden to put on the woman- or the child that you would be -in part- responsible for creating.

And as far as I know, the courts can't tell you to quit school and give up your dream of being a doctor. You may have to work harder. Your life may not be as easy and carefree as it once was. But...well...neither would the woman's. And you can bet that child's life won't be a bed of roses if you up and walk away from it.

I think this is one instance where life is never going to be fair. But to me, the welfare of the child should come before the welfare of the parents. The child has no choice in the matter. The parents did.

And yes, it would be ideal that the partner that WANTS the baby takes full responsibility for it. But in this imperfect world, I feel it is in the best interest of the child that the law insists one partner help the other. There are far too many cases of one partner taking off and being deadbeats as it is (and this mostly happens to women, who at a certain point during or after the pregnancy can do nothing to improve their financial circumstances- since sometimes they cannot physically go to work).

[Greenday]

No offense, Greenday, but don't have sex then. That is not a fair burden to put on the woman- or the child that you would be -in part- responsible for creating.

And as far as I know, the courts can't tell you to quit school and give up your dream of being a doctor. You may have to work harder. Your life may not be as easy and carefree as it once was. But...well...neither would the woman's. And you can bet that child's life won't be a bed of roses if you up and walk away from it.

I'm not having sex. Or, I am, but pregnancy cannot result from it. I'm being responsible about it. I don't believe it'd be a fair burden on the woman or child if I got a girl pregnant, nor do I believe it'd be a fair burden on me. There really is no pleasing everyone if either person doesn't want to have kids.

The court cannot tell you to quit school and give up your dreams, but they can sure as hell make it impossible to do so by forcing you to make payments that you could only do so through quitting school.

[MystyGlyttyr]

The only thing I have to add is that in cases that aren't explicitly rape, no one forced the girl to have sex, either. Everyone is talking about the man and what he did, but she had to lay down and open her legs, too. And suppose a woman raped a man and got pregnant? He's screwed in every sense of the word because A) no court is going to believe him (or at least it'll be a very rare judge who does), B) a woman who would do that would probably chase him down for child support, etc.

I know that's an extreme, but I'm just getting a little edgy about everyone talking all about the father and what he wasn't forced to do and not mentioning the mother. She has to know that she has a chance to get pregnant too...AND she is the one who typically has access to the best kinds of birth control...so she's at LEAST just as culpable in getting pregnant if not more so. Is that fair, no, but until they come up with a form of pill birth control for men, then that's how it is.

And I don't consider a man getting fixed "his" birth control. There's a major difference between a surgical procedure that affects you for the rest of your life and swallowing a pill every day or getting a shot every week that you can at any time choose to stop swallowing or getting (when it's being used purely for birth control purposes and not other medical reasons).

[kibbles]

I agree 100% with Mysty. In many things (such as this), everyone seems to talk about how the man should have done this or that; but, how about the woman?

Another example (probably a little off topic) is when you hear woman talk about daring the friends to go to strange men and slap their butt; but, get all offended when the same behavior is directed towards them. I just don't get it, LOL!

[DesignFox]

Oh don't get me wrong Mysty, I'm not saying the woman is absolved of responsibility, either. What I said to Greenday certainly applies to the woman also. But it takes two to tango. You both get to deal with the consequences of your actions. Not just one or the other.

And guys aren't limited to getting snipped. They CAN put a damn condom on for god's sake. Granted, it's not necessarily as effective as the pill- yes they can break and all that.. blah blah blah. But it certainly protects the guy more than doing nothing and hoping for the best. And anyway- for the prevention of STD's- you should be using one, regardless. (yes yes if you're married, monogamous, been tested there are exceptions- I'm generalizing). Oh- and I almost forgot about spermicides.

You can certainly layer on the protections. And there are options available to both sexes to protect themselves. Or either partner can choose to abstain.

It is not the child's choice to come into the world- only the two adults can decide to have sex. Only the woman (hopefully listening to her partner and taking his decision into account) can decide to a) bring that child into the world b) give that child up for adoption or c) abort the pregnancy and prevent the creation of an unwanted child.

If the multiple methods of birth control myself and my partner use would happen to fail, I would expect that my partner would be there to help me and not up and ditch me because, after all, looking out for #1 is the most important thing in the universe. The trust goes both ways. The relationship goes both ways. Both parties are equally responsible for their actions. And if it is a true partnership- that's how it should be.

Again. Not that life is fair. And people can be selfish, lying pricks- both male and female.

[Boozy]

I know that's an extreme, but I'm just getting a little edgy about everyone talking all about the father and what he wasn't forced to do and not mentioning the mother.

I think everyone's talking about the father because the thread title is called "Abortion Rights for Fathers".

And the fact that the mother will have to do one thing or another about the child growing inside her is a no-brainer... she's literally forced to make a decision at some point.

[Evandril]

Kinda stretching it, but according the Decleration of Independence, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. Forcing a man to give up his life definitely takes away his right to the persuit of happiness.

'Life' does not refer to what you do on a day to day basis...It refers to the act of breathing on a regular basis. If they take that away to 'help' the child, something is seriously wrong. That would also be the only way to take away your right to *PERSUE* happiness. You can lock me in a cage in the most horrible conditions possible...I can still persue happiness...Unlikely I will BE happy, but that was never promised.

If you want to have sex, and you don't want to take precautions, then be prepared to support a child or two for life. I don't care what sex you are, or who was supposed to be 'taking care' of that detail...If you, yourself, are not taking precautions, or they are not enough...You do what is needed. Is it 'fair' that you *cannot* make things equal between the sexes? Nope, but it *IS* a fact. All the laws in the world will not make Pi equal 3, no matter what politians may think about th matter

[kiwi]

This is a situation that will NEVER be fair, but you know what... life isn't fair and it never will be

but the fact of the matter is, the pregancy is taking place in the woman's body and that means she has the choice like it or not.

If you are not prepared to face the consequences of your actions then cross your legs ladies and gents. There will always be a chance, no matter how small that if you have sex a pregnancy could occur. Even if the girl is taking birth control correctly, even if you use condoms and spermacide and every contraceptive out there, it could still happen.

You have sex knowing that fact... so deal with it.

[Cat]

What a great topic to discuss!!

Ok, as ya'll might now, I am female, and decided to be child free....this may cloud my opinions.

This is a hard topic to give a black and white answer to, but I'll give this one situation:

The duo do the deep, with or w/ protection (it can fail), she is now preggers. They are not a committed couple, whether its a 1 night stand, a fling, what have you. She decided to keep it, he doe not want kids. I think in this situation he should not be forced to give support, if he does, cool, but he should at least that much say.

Now, if they are indeed a committed couple, she gets preggers (planned or not) and then he decides not to have kids, well, then I can see demanding support. They are in it together.

Its a tough situation with no clear cut answer....but an interesting one.

Now me, I never will have kids. I tell potential long term relationship this, prety much one Day 1. I use 2 types of protection, and will get my tubed tied as soon as I can a doc to do it and when I can afford to.

Wow...long post, sorry....but this was a great topic :)

[McDreidel09]

Kinda stretching it, but according the Decleration of Independence, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. Forcing a man to give up his life definitely takes away his right to the persuit of happiness.


That's the exact attitude my dad takes on. He had unprotected sex with my mom when she was 16 and a few months after her 17th birthday, I was born. 4 years later, he had unprotected sex with her and out came my sister.

When I was in eighth grade, he moved to FL because he didn't get to live his life.

My mom doesn't believe in abortions and she couldn't give my sister and me up.

So, I have a father who is not really there for me because he needs to live his own life. How does that help the child? It doesn't. I've been pulled into the counselor's office many times because of issues and now I have attachment issues.

Think that one over again. You have sex, even protected, there is a chance a conception occurs. Women are expected to step up. Why isn't the man expected to step up?

[Greenday]

Women are expected to step up. Why isn't the man expected to step up?

Seeing as how women have the option to end a pregnancy, I believe they have an out.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

No offense, Greenday, but don't have sex then. That is not a fair burden to put on the woman- or the child that you would be -in part- responsible for creating.



Thank you. You beat me to it.

Here's the thing...a woman cannot walk away from it. So a man shouldn't be able to, either.

If you 100 percent, no compromise, no discussion do not want a child, then do not have sexual-hide-the-salami-intercourse. That is where babies come from. Yes, I realize that humans have sex for pleasure and not just for procreation. However no matter how great sex is, it's not worth altering the rest of your life for if that is what you don't want. And there are plenty of ways for a couple to share intimacy that will not lead to pregnancy.

So here's a question for you guys out there who all think the burden of birth contol is on the woman: The only way she can be absolutely 100 percent certain that she won't get pregant and be faced with an enormously life-altering decision to make, is to not allow you to put your penis in her vagina. She knows you can walk away from it. She also knows she cannot. So she tells you that she's not risking that. What do you do? Do you stay with her and respect her choice or do you dump her for a chick willing to risk everything she wants in her life for your night of pleasure?

[DesignFox]

Seeing as how women have the option to end a pregnancy, I believe they have an out.

I think they would have an out if it weren't for the stigma attached to a) un-married women getting pregnant (although we do see this changing) or b) abortion in general.

Men have a much easier out simply because no one looks at a man and knows he knocked someone up.

Women have to wear it on their bodies- it isn't exactly a secret when a woman is carrying a baby. And if the "morally superior" would keep their noses out of other women's uteri we wouldn't have an evil stigma attached to the idea of someone choosing to have an abortion. (Now granted, I don't think women should be encouraged to use abortion as a means of birth control. BUT I feel that if women and men are properly educated, it would be a rare consequence)

So, while I agree with you in theory, Greenday, it's not that simple.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Let's address the abortion thing, I meant to mention it.

When I say a woman can't walk away, I am taking that into account. Even if she chooses to have an abortion, she still can't walk away. It's her body and her ultimate choice. I don't think any woman can choose that step and remain entire unscathed.

I'm not saying a woman should never have an abortion, ever. I'm just saying that the cavalier attitude towards it is extremely damaging. Her decision, no matter what she chooses, will be hanging over her head to some extent for the rest of her life. That's what I mean when I say she can't walk away.

The stakes for women are much higher. That is not fair, but it's the way it is. Life's not fair.

The fact that men need to face this, too is also not fair, but it's the way it is. Life's not fair.

[tropicsgoddess]

I still think that if a woman wants to get an abortion, it should be her decision and her decision alone. After all it's HER body.

[Pedersen]

I've stayed out of this one, since it's a bit overly sensitive for me. However, RK's comments here seem to say that men can just walk away, and be unscathed. That's a blanket generalization, and far from true.

I've had three of the women in my life pregnant during the time I was with them.

The first one we gave up for adoption. I never even saw the girl who was my daughter. I couldn't let myself see her, because if I did, I couldn't give her up, and I needed to do that for her sake. I could not have been a good father at that point in my life. I don't think about her every day, but I do think about her quite frequently. She's 14 years old now. I hope she's living a good life, and that things are going well for her. It's very unlikely I will ever know, though, since I'll likely never see her. And that hurts me still. I wonder what she looks like. I wonder if her adoptive parents have managed to succeed, and give her a good life. I wonder what her first name is, even. I will likely never know the answers to those questions.

The second one, there was a miscarriage. I was ready. I wanted to be a father. I wanted to help bring up a child. And then came the miscarriage. The worst part of it was that I had to be the strong one, the one who held her up. I never got to cry. I put my emotions in a box, put the box in some dark corner of my mind, and lost the key. I've never found it since. That still leaves a hole in my heart to this day.

The third one... We had to have an abortion. My wife is incapable of carrying to term due to the medications she must take to control her arthritis (she was diagnosed with it before she turned 25).

I think about each of these incidents often. Each of them hurts in its own unique way. Will the daughter I gave up for adoption ever seek me out? If she does, will she find me? If so, what will I do?

And what about the two that never were? One of them, the universe took this away from me. Something so precious, and it was gone. Nothing I could do to affect anything. All I could do was watch a dream die. And the other? I couldn't ask my wife to go through nine months of hell with what her arthritis would do to her. So, again, I watched the dream die. I even helped it happen. And the pain from that...

I tell myself to this day that I don't want children. I tell myself that my life is better for me, and for them, because I'm too selfish. I say it often enough that, most times, I even manage to believe it.

RK, your post implies long term emotional scarring happens for women, but men can just walk away without issue. For some, that is undoubtedly true. You have no idea how wrong you are for the rest of us, though.

And I hope, for your sake, you never do manage to understand it fully.

[Nyoibo]

Sex makes babies, it takes 2 parties to do that, either or both parties can walk away from it, but yeah, if you really don't want to have to deal with the prospect of an abortion, guys don't stick your schwingschwong in their hoopajoop, and women, don't open your bajingo for business.

It's not exactly hard to go without sex, take a cold shower or something.

[Cat]

Ya know....its debates like this that make me so ticked that I cannot go and get my tubes tied...that bs attitude "but your female, you will want kids." Nope, not me, not ever. A guy can get snipped (I think it fairly easy to get this done, but lacking a penis, I never asked a doctor if that is so), but gals? Nope....we have to pop out a few first. But that is O/T


I will still maintain the guy should have a right in whether he wants to rear a child, if we truly want equal rights, it has to go both ways. This is why you really need to talk to your partner, before you dance.

(ugh now I have to go to work and can't comment til I get back home)

[Boozy]

RK, your post implies long term emotional scarring happens for women, but men can just walk away without issue. For some, that is undoubtedly true. You have no idea how wrong you are for the rest of us, though.


I think she's very well aware that not all men are like that. She's happily married to the father of her child, after all.

All I got from her post was that if a man was the type of person to be able to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy unscathed, then there is no physical reason he can't. That's it.

[Greenday]

It's not exactly hard to go without sex, take a cold shower or something.

For the record, that doesn't work.

Ya know....its debates like this that make me so ticked that I cannot go and get my tubes tied...that bs attitude "but your female, you will want kids." Nope, not me, not ever. A guy can get snipped (I think it fairly easy to get this done, but lacking a penis, I never asked a doctor if that is so), but gals? Nope....we have to pop out a few first. But that is O/T

DAMNIT! I KNEW I forgot to talk to my general practitioner last week. God knows when I'll be able to see him next too.

[blas87]

I definetly would get snipped as early as you possibly can, Greenday. God knows, I'd hate to be the poor girl you accidently knock up and go running from the hills away from when she delivers you the bad news because this baby will "ruin your life" and be a detriment. That poor girl will probably have to pay for that abortion all on her own or borrow the money, or she'll have to carry that baby to term, the physical and mental changes all taken into consideration as well (WHICH MEN DO NOT GAIN WEIGHT OR GET STRETCH MARKS AND CAN STILL DRINK, SMOKE AND EAT FISH, I THANK YOU!) all the while knowing that you wouldn't bother taking any responsibility for something you both knew could happen from having sex.

I am on the Depo shot and I make my boyfriend wear condoms. There is still a SLIGHT possibility that I could still get knocked up. I'm ready to deal accordingly. Am I going to be upset if I get knocked up? You fucking bet I will be. Will I think my life is over? Probably. But I will be a fucking adult about it and go over my options and pick what path is best for me. If my boyfriend were to try to run away, you can bet I'd be chasing him down and I'd break his legs while he was trying to run. You do NOT run away from your responsibilites in life. Even if you go down the abortion path, you do NOT pretend it never happened and try to avoid the fact that the pregnancy did happen. Sometimes you have to be a fucking adult.

Unless you want to wear 2 condoms at a time and have your girlfriend on the Depo shot as well, you better damn well be ready to accept that no matter what, there is always a SLIGHT chance pregnancy could happen. I am living proof that birth control can fail.

If you cannot handle the fact that there is always an eensy beensy tiny little chance that conception could occur, DO NOT HAVE SEX.

[Greenday]

Two condoms at the same time is actually a bad idea. The friction between the two help destroy eachother.

I don't do vaginal intercourse anymore. I don't want to deal with the issue of pregnancy so I'm being smart enough to make sure it can't happen. I don't hook up with random girls so I wouldn't find myself in the situation where I would ever feel the need to do such a drastic thing. And if I was married, and accidently knocked my wife/fiance/girlfriend up, I'd stay with her and go with her choice.

But until I'm at a time where I can really do such a thing, I'm not having sex. I'm not taking my chances. I'm waiting till I graduate college and have a full time job and a serious girlfriend that I could spend the rest of my life with. Because that's what I'd do if I got my girlfriend knocked up. I don't want to have any regrets about who I spend the rest of my life with so I'm not going to do anything that could put me in the position where that could happen.

I thank you for attacking my character. As you can read in my post, I'm not dumb enough to put myself in the position where this situation would arise. Maybe my posts sound bitter because I think men do not have any decent valid options. If they want nothing to do with the baby, they either become a complete jackass and run, or they are stuck paying child support for the next 22 years, with no say whatsoever on it. blas, I've always enjoyed reading your stories on the board. I will continue to do so. But don't assume just because I care so much about my life that I'm an idiot and a jackass.

[blas87]

I sincerely apologize for how offensive I came across to you, Greenday, as I have always considered you a friend on both of these boards....and sometimes, you and I seem to be in the minority on opinion against everyone else on here. I'd really hate for that to be broken.

I just get really, really touchy when it comes to this type of thing. The way you posted in the previous pages made it seem like you'd be the type of guy who would run off.

Look Greenday, I understand you and I are a lot alike. Both of us want to go to school and have careers, and neither of us want a baby getting in the way. And no, there is nothing selfish about that, and neither is wording that way. I have often been heard quoting "I will never let a man or a baby get in the way of my dreams", and I mean it. However, I also realize that if there were to ever be an accident, that I cannot just shrug it off and treat it like a detriment. That I have a responsibility to do something about it.

Before you just clarified above, you worded so it seemed that you'd give no consideration to the girl or the situation at hand. And I do sincerely apologize, as trust me, I'd be infuriated if I ever got knocked up, and I'd feel my life was over (at least for a little bit).

I really did not mean to bash your character. I got very touchy about the subject of dead beat dads and took it way too far and bashed you instead. I am very sorry.

And yes, I know 2 condoms is a bad idea. They taught us that in 10th grade :)

[Greenday]

Thank you. I was posting more on my opinions of how fathers just don't seem to have any rights. I just forgot to mention what I'd actually do in that situation.

[blas87]

I've never even heard of a guy wanting to keep the baby and the girl wanting an abortion. But then again, there's a lot of other "common" things that I've never heard of or witnessed. Most likely because of my sheltered, small town redneck upbringing. I'm not doubting it happens, I've just never seen it.

I think the main reason men aren't given much of a chance is because they aren't the ones who physically carry the baby for 9 months in their ever-expanding uterus, gaining tons of weight, getting stretch marks, vomitting like crazy the first few months, getting nauseated at the most normal of smells, craving the silliest food combinations, etc etc.

It also doesn't help that we live in a society where a lot of men do try to run and hide when they knock a girl up, and sometimes it takes wage garnishments and even jail time before a guy will even consider stepping up. I don't doubt there are deadbeat mothers, as MadMike's ex is a prime example of that. It's probably just because we rarely hear of it.

[Sylvia727]

I've never even heard of a guy wanting to keep the baby and the girl wanting an abortion.

My friend. Her dad paid his one-night-stand not to have an abortion. He was desperate; she'd lied about her birth control but he didn't want to let his baby die. This guy let the baby momma have free room and board at his place for years until she got bored and left. Then he paid her to surrender all parental rights to the child. Did he "buy" his daughter away from her mother? Oh yes. Was the best thing that ever happened to her? Oh hell yes. My friend is the only good thing that's ever come from that woman, and she's much better off without that influence in her life. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but it does happen.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Pedersen, first of all, I'm so sorry you have that pain in your life. You are not the type of person I am talking about. I have a male friend haunted by that same grief. I don't know if it was an abortion or a miscarriage. I don't ask and it doesn't matter. It's a horrible loss, a big hole in the guy's psyche. That's all that really matters. So yeah, I understand, at least on the level that I can, that men suffer that sort of loss as well.

But Boozy is right...I am simply saying that a lot of men (actually, a lot of women, too) have this cavalier atitude about abortion that they can just do that and never think about it again. It very rarely works that way, particularly for women. That life is inside them, it's not the abstract concept that it is for a lot of men.

I know fathers, WONDERFUL fathers, even, for whom an unseen child is an abstract concept. It's not abstract for women, it's part of their bodies.

Even if a woman chooses abortion, she still is the one who has to undergo it, suffer the pain and physical trauma of it, and then most likely be haunted by it for the end of her days. The man may, too, I'm not saying he won't. But it's not his body it's happening to. And there are far and away too many men who never think about it again.

[AdminAssistant]

Mom miscarried between having my sister and me; it would've been a boy. Dad definitely suffers from it - he always wanted a son, was told he would have one three times. Twice he got girls and the one time he was going to get a son, it was taken away from him.

You know, I see this cavalier attitude towards abortion in the media, too. I seem to remember an episode of Sex in the City where the girls are all eating lunch together and tallying up how many abortions they'd each had. They were joking about it. Sad.

[kiwi]

where the girls are all eating lunch together and tallying up how many abortions they'd each had. They were joking about it. Sad.

one of my friends at school had 3 abortions by the time she was 16, she thought it was a laugh and that it made her cool and sexy somehow because soooooo many guys wanted to sleep with her and that made her better than the "loser virgins".

I always felt very sad for her. To have to validate herself by sleeping around.

Im prochoice but that doesn't mean I think it should be viewed as a good thing, it can be very tramatic for all involved, physically and emotionally.

[the_std]

Y'know, I'd rather see people making light of their abortions than not having the chance to get them at all.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Y'know, I'd rather see people making light of their abortions than not having the chance to get them at all.

Agreed. Plus in some ways, it's better that women who would not make good mothers in ten billion years have them, even if they're using them as a form of birth control, rather than birth a child and then neglect, abandon or abuse it.

Two things. First of all, my mother miscarried a baby between myself and my older brother. Both my parents still think of him/her; they never knew what gender the baby was. It took my mother a year or so to get over it, then she had me. An abortion is really an artificial miscarriage, and if a woman suffers badly during a miscarriage, then to me someone must be made of stone to not feel at all during an abortion, even if she chose to have one. A man might suffer along with his girlf/wife, but ultimately, it is her body and the damage is done to her body and mind. The man can sympathise, but he can't really ever understand.

Second, I would never have children of my own. Even my mother agrees with me that I'd make a terrible mother and it would be catastrophic for me to have kids, on account of having had depression and of my AS. Plus, I'm far too selfish to want to ruin my body in that way, or to give up all my money and spare time. However, both my boyf and I are taking all precautions to stop this from happening. He always uses a condom and I take the pill. In the past, we had a scare; straight to the chemist we went to get the morning after pill the morning after the condom split.

Now, to the topic. It's a fact that until medical science figures out a way to incubate a fetus after removing it from the mother's body, that the onus on deciding its fate rests solely with the mother. As people have already said, it is her body, she that must carry the baby for nine months and take the risks involved in birthing it, NOT him no matter how attached he might be to it. Therefore, he has no right to either try and force a woman to have an abortion, or to force her to give birth. No, it's not fair, but life isn't fair, either.

[guywithashovel]

Many ultra liberal, flag-waving feminazis seem to be of the opinion that the choice to have an abortion is all on the woman, since she is the one who carries the baby and gives birth to it.

Okay, fair enough. That's your opinion.

But I don't think they realize that the same logic can be used against them if they try to hit a guy up for child support. She carried the baby and gave birth to it, SHE can pay for it. And yes, I do realize that I've probably ticked some people off in a major way by saying that, but you know what, it needs to be said.

Of course, the counter argument is probably going to be, "Well, when she's pregnant, it's HER body, and that evil, evil man who stuck his nasty peepee in her (at her own consent) should not have any control over her body." In actuality, though, she is pregnant with something that BOTH of you created. So unless the woman is pregnant because she is raped, this argument does not hold water.

[AFPheonix]

One small problem with your stance, Shovel. The father helped to make a new individual, whether he wanted to or not. Guess what, he/she is there now, and part of being a big boy or girl is taking responsibility for your actions. You made the choice to take part in a behavior that caused reproduction, you get to deal with the fallout and make sure that this new human being gets a decent start in life.
It's not about the mom or the dad, it's about the kid.

[Nyoibo]

For the record, that doesn't work.


I know, it's supposed to be a warm shower. :p


Oh, and why can't pregnant women eat fish? :confused:

[guywithashovel]

One small problem with your stance, Shovel. The father helped to make a new individual, whether he wanted to or not. Guess what, he/she is there now, and part of being a big boy or girl is taking responsibility for your actions. You made the choice to take part in a behavior that caused reproduction, you get to deal with the fallout and make sure that this new human being gets a decent start in life.
It's not about the mom or the dad, it's about the kid.

I was making an analogy moreso than taking a stance on child support. I actually do think that if a parent---be it a father or a mother---helps create a life and then gets up and leaves, then he or she should pay child support.

The point I was trying to make is that so many people seem to take the stance that "its the woman's body, so she alone decides whether or not to have the abortion." I was pointing out that this same line of reasoning could be applied to the child support issue, and is therefore faulty.

[Lace Neil Singer]

One small problem with your stance, Shovel. The father helped to make a new individual, whether he wanted to or not. Guess what, he/she is there now, and part of being a big boy or girl is taking responsibility for your actions. You made the choice to take part in a behavior that caused reproduction, you get to deal with the fallout and make sure that this new human being gets a decent start in life.
It's not about the mom or the dad, it's about the kid.

This. It seems pretty unfair, not to mention immature, to make a child suffer just cuz you're mad at the mother for allowing it to be born without your consent.

Also, I'd say that any woman who deliberately tricked a guy into getting her pregant would deserve to have to raise the child alone; however, ultimately, it's not the mother who would suffer in that case, it would be the child.


The point I was trying to make is that so many people seem to take the stance that "its the woman's body, so she alone decides whether or not to have the abortion." I was pointing out that this same line of reasoning could be applied to the child support issue, and is therefore faulty.

Not really; you can't compare what is a risky medical procedure, on both sides (birth or abortion) with a legal issue. Being forced to either give birth or go thru abortion is not comparable in any way with being forced to pay child support, so there's really no point in making the comparison.

[AdminAssistant]

Oh, and why can't pregnant women eat fish? :confused:

Short answer: mercury.

I believe that farm-raised fish, in small quantities, are okay. Seems like Sis still ate catfish - but that was a few years ago.

[DesignFox]

<snip>
I'm not saying a woman should never have an abortion, ever. I'm just saying that the cavalier attitude towards it is extremely damaging. Her decision, no matter what she chooses, will be hanging over her head to some extent for the rest of her life. That's what I mean when I say she can't walk away.

The stakes for women are much higher. That is not fair, but it's the way it is. Life's not fair.

The fact that men need to face this, too is also not fair, but it's the way it is. Life's not fair.

I'm glad you addressed it from this angle RK, because I forgot to in my previous post. While I do think many women have more issue with it because of the stigma attached, I agree that whether or not that stigma existed, women would still struggle with the decision. It's not easy. No matter what the circumstance. I personally hope I never have to make that kind of decision.

<snip>

RK, your post implies long term emotional scarring happens for women, but men can just walk away without issue. For some, that is undoubtedly true. You have no idea how wrong you are for the rest of us, though.

<snip>

We know this isn't true of all guys, Pedersen. I wouldn't even say its true of most guys.

And I'm sincerely sorry to hear of your loss.

Thank you. I was posting more on my opinions of how fathers just don't seem to have any rights. I just forgot to mention what I'd actually do in that situation.

Thanks for clearing that up. Like Blas, I was definitely misinterpreting your first posts. I think it's awesome that you are taking precautions and wanting to stand by your woman.

Now if everyone did that, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion....

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I know, I, too am glad Greenday cleared that up. And I am blown away by his uncommon attitude towards the matter. It really is pretty much like mine.

I wasn't going to let a short time of fun set me up for a lifetime of hardship. So I didn't play. It's not always the popular option, but so be it.

Takes guts, Greenday, and I know that from personal experience. Good for you.

[Greenday]

I know, I, too am glad Greenday cleared that up. And I am blown away by his uncommon attitude towards the matter. It really is pretty much like mine.

I wasn't going to let a short time of fun set me up for a lifetime of hardship. So I didn't play. It's not always the popular option, but so be it.

Takes guts, Greenday, and I know that from personal experience. Good for you.

There's plenty I can still do sexually without doing anything that risks pregnancy. It's really not a challenge.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

There's plenty I can still do sexually without doing anything that risks pregnancy. It's really not a challenge.


That is exactly right. I'm with you, it's not like I was a prude when I was younger. I just avoided the thing that would cause me to get knocked up. It wasn't that hard.

[AFPheonix]

I was making an analogy moreso than taking a stance on child support. I actually do think that if a parent---be it a father or a mother---helps create a life and then gets up and leaves, then he or she should pay child support.

The point I was trying to make is that so many people seem to take the stance that "its the woman's body, so she alone decides whether or not to have the abortion." I was pointing out that this same line of reasoning could be applied to the child support issue, and is therefore faulty.

Ultimately it kind of HAS to be the woman's purview on whether she gets the abortion, simply because I'M the one that's going to have to take the drugs to cause contraction to remove the tissue from my uterus, I'M the one that's going to have to get a shot in my cervix to numb it, I'M the one that's going to get a speculum shoved up up my hooha to crank me open like a garage door, and I'M the one who gets a hoover vac up there to suck everything out.
Kind of like it's ultimately your decision to get your tonsils removed, regardless of how your mate feels about it. Not completely, but there's some similarities there.

Of course, a mature couple will talk to each other about it, and be truthful about it ahead of time. A mature female will take the concerns of her mate at the time into consideration as she ultimately makes the choice, along with what is ultimately going to be best for her physically, mentally and emotionally.
I guess the moral of the story is make sure that if you're going to boink, boink girls that are up front and honest with you.

[Nyoibo]

Short answer: mercury.

I believe that farm-raised fish, in small quantities, are okay. Seems like Sis still ate catfish - but that was a few years ago.

You Americans got some messed up fish.

[powerboy]

RK, your post implies long term emotional scarring happens for women, but men can just walk away without issue. For some, that is undoubtedly true. You have no idea how wrong you are for the rest of us, though.




Pedersen, I am like you on one thing. I too had an ex that mis-carried. Her and I both were ready to be parents and wanted it. Do I think about it at times? Hell yes I do. I would have had a daughter, which I always wanted and still want one.

I actually think that abortion should not even be an option. You don't want a child, give it up for adoption.

[Cats]

I'm mostly pro-life, so I don't exactly believe in abortions unless there's extenuating circumstances (such as rape or the health of the mother/child would compromise quality of life). For the record though, I do not think abortion should be illegal either (since that won't stop people from getting them, but it will put a brick in the gears of having them be "safe").

If a man who's pressing for abortion cause he doesn't want to support the child should be told to suck it up, then I feel the woman should too.

Yes, I do know woman are a lot more effected (physically and emotionally) by a pregnancy and abortion/miscarriages, but unless you were raped, you TOO played in that role of doing the naked dance.

I'm with blas, if you are not fully willing to accept the consequences of your actions (ones that you are FULLY aware of) when there are risks (even if they are small), then keep it in your pants. there are other ways to be intimate other than vaginal intercourse. If you need ideas, there's aways the Kama Sutra or internet porn.

I know not everyone shares my views on abortion. In a comitted relationship, honestly I think potential pregnancy and how to handle it should be discussed beforehand, as well as if the issue DOES in fact happen. I think the father SHOULD have a say, since they BOTH created that life, but ultimately, in the event of a disagreement, it should be up to the woman since she has to deal with the physical ramnifications of the decision in the end, not the father. Of course there are fathers who do feel the emotional burden of an abortion, but due to the circumstances that is life, the woman is forced to bear more of a burden.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I actually think that abortion should not even be an option. You don't want a child, give it up for adoption.

You're a man, so you're never going to have to make that choice. Also, in case you didn't know, pregnancy takes a terrible toll on the body. Women who are preparing for motherhood will put up with the physical aspects of pregnancy and childbirth, cuz they will get the child at the end that they want. However, I am not going to put my body thru hell as well as risking my life and health, both mental and physical, just to placate someone who thinks that adoption is the answer to an unwanted pregnancy. Also, not every baby given up for adoption gets a lovely set of parents and a great life; there are thousands of kids sitting in children's homes, or being shoved from foster home to foster home. I am doing everything I can to prevent being infested with a parasite; I'm sorry, but I don't see why I should go thru all that trauma just to satisfy a few liberals, who put the rights of a fetus over the rights of a woman to be more than an incubator.

[AdminAssistant]

Actually, Lace, in America it's the conservatives who put the rights of the fetus over the rights of the woman. Something about how Jesus told them so. And in the great state of Arkansas (my home state) they just passed a law that unmarried couples could not adopt or foster children - a law designed to target gay couples without actually "discriminating" against them. So, even fewer choices for the kids there.

I'm not a fan of abortion, I pray I never find myself in a situation where I have to have one. But I'm also not going to be a nun. And there are rape cases - and a rape victim should not be forced to carry a child. If you want to eliminate abortions, then get ready to hand out a lot of rusty coat hangers, because desperate women will just take the matter into their own hands.

The real solution is preventing unwanted pregnancies, through better education, better birth control availability, etc. Not to mention telling guys that wearing condoms doesn't make them less of a man and that no does mean 'no'. It doesn't mean 'maybe'. And girls should be told that if a guy doesn't accept 'no' for an answer, that is permission to hit said guy violently and repeatedly in the balls until he accepts that answer.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I didn't mean liberal as in a political party; just as in "bleeding heart" liberals who scream if a woman dares to want to get an abortion, but show little or no interest in caring for all the thousands of unwanted kids already here.

In any case, making something illegal doesn't stop people from wanting it; and I for one would prefer that women can go to a nice, safe, clean clinic and receive counselling and care from trained professionals... rather than visit a struck off doctor in a backstreet armed with knitting needles and gin. Or attempt to abort themselves using soapy water and a syringe, risking a fatal air embolism.

This makes good reading for anyone who thinks that making abortions illegal is the answer: http://socialistworker.org/2005-2/562/562_06_Abortion.shtml

[Boozy]

I think "liberal" must mean something different on this side of the pond. Pro-choice people here are usually labelled "liberal", whereas pro-lifers are "conservative".

Hard-core socialists are another ball of wax. After all, the political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle.

Let's chalk this one up to language differences and get back to the real debate. :)

[Lace Neil Singer]

Yay. XD

Anyway, I always think that abortion threads are a bit like opening a can of worms; there's always people on both sides of the issue with very strong views on it. I don't really see how one woman choosing to abort a fetus is anyone's business but her own or possibly her partner's. I understand that it must suck for a guy who's girlf goes and gets an abortion against his will, but let's face it, it's not an equal playing field and never will be, so ultimately, her rights override his.

[Pedersen]

In any sense, nothing they are saying is based on any kind of life experience. These heinous opinions they are expressing are nothing more than the bullshit they are regurgitating from women's studies textbooks, feminist literature, and misandrous periodicals such as Cosmo and Ms.

I'm going to hopefully save you from some of the shit storm you've just brought on yourself by pointing out that you are wrong. Go and read the replies to my own post, and you'll see that what is being discussed in those phrases is not what you have taken from them.

They are discussing the fact that, for a male, the option physically exists for him to simply disappear. He can choose to remove himself. He has the physical capacity (though not necessarily the mental or emotional) to refuse to deal with what has occurred. The woman who is pregnant does not. She must decide how she will deal with it.

Something that I do find interesting is how divided on gender lines this issue is. Men are saying "Your body, but my life is extremely affected by your choice, and I should therefore get some say in what happens." Women replying in this thread are overwhelmingly stating "My body, my choice, deal with it."

I've seen another thread about circumcision which did much the same, but with most women taking the opposite tack of saying "Who cares?" and most men saying "My body, why don't I get a choice?"

To me, it's an interesting study in contrasts. Everybody wants control of their own bodies, but seems unwilling to allow everybody else to maintain control of their own bodies. Both genders do it. Anyway, back to the main topic.

Men always have the physical ability to walk away. Most of us don't have the emotional ability to do so. Denying us any input on what happens when both parties have caused a pregnancy seems wrong to me. And don't say "The guy made his choice in advance" because so did the woman (except in cases of rape). Once that happens, both parties should have some amount of say in what happens next. I just don't know where that dividing line should be.

[DesignFox]

<snip> But all these insinuations that fathers have no connections with their unborn children are really getting under my skin. I guess that's why I made the snide remarks I made earlier.

I don't think a single woman that posted in this thread said those words.

Considering my own response to Pedersen's situation, I take extreme offense to your comments. I suggest you go back and read between the lines.

The only point I was making is that a woman is not only emotionally invested in carrying a baby to term, but also extremely physically invested. And while a guy can hide his involvement, a woman has no choice but to wear it on her body.

So, while I strongly believe the decision should be a joint one (and as I've stated before, in a truly committed relationship it will be) since the woman has to undergo the physical trauma and stress and suffer the social stigmas that come along with being knocked up... sorry- she's got the bigger say.

That being said, I'm glad that you do take a vested interest in the well being of your future partner and children. That's very admirable.

[guywithashovel]

I don't think a single woman that posted in this thread said those words.

Considering my own response to Pedersen's situation, I take extreme offense to your comments. I suggest you go back and read between the lines.

The only point I was making is that a woman is not only emotionally invested in carrying a baby to term, but also extremely physically invested. And while a guy can hide his involvement, a woman has no choice but to wear it on her body.

So, while I strongly believe the decision should be a joint one (and as I've stated before, in a truly committed relationship it will be) since the woman has to undergo the physical trauma and stress and suffer the social stigmas that come along with being knocked up... sorry- she's got the bigger say.

That being said, I'm glad that you do take a vested interest in the well being of your future partner and children. That's very admirable.

Looking back, I'll say that I shouldn't have loaded my last post up with so much bile. It's just that I got pretty worked up over what I thought was being said (and what I still think was being said by some), especially considering what my family has been through lately.

And actually, when it's all said and done, I would probably agree that in a situation where the two people are not married, but the girl ends up getting pregnant, that she would probably end up with the bigger say. But where that line should be drawn is tricky.

I probably will check back, but I'm probably going to try to leave this thread alone for now. It's really getting to me. Sorry for the offense.

EDIT: I just went back and deleted my offensive post. I apologize again for letting my emotions get out of control.

[Pedersen]

One thing further has been bothering me about this thread.

Male options for contraception are exceedingly limited in comparison to female options. What if we adjust the situation a bit, and explore those options for a minute?

Men can abstain, use condoms, or get a vasectomy. What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

[telecom_goddess]

One thing further has been bothering me about this thread.

Male options for contraception are exceedingly limited in comparison to female options. What if we adjust the situation a bit, and explore those options for a minute?

Men can abstain, use condoms, or get a vasectomy. What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

Well I guess that depends. If he's single then he has no one else to answer to BUT he should disclose that information early on in a relationship. If he's already in a relationship then I think it should be discussed first....although I guess he should have the final decision since it IS his body and all.

[AdminAssistant]

What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

I have zero problem with that. His body, his decision. If he's single, he should mention it decently early on in a relationship. If he's in a relationship, it would be ideal if he discussed the matter with his significant other.

I seem to remember a discussion of a male birth control pill, and people were arguing against it, saying that men - particularly in their teens and twenties - would not be responsible enough to take a pill everyday. I think that's BS, myself.

[Greenday]

I seem to remember a discussion of a male birth control pill, and people were arguing against it, saying that men - particularly in their teens and twenties - would not be responsible enough to take a pill everyday. I think that's BS, myself.

LOL cause all women are? That makes sense. For both sexes, there will always be people who take meds correctly, and those who are irresponsible.

[DesignFox]

<snip> What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

I feel that it's his body, so that's his decision.

If the guy really doesn't want kids, he should make that known to his partner- especially if he's undergone the vasectomy.

Just like women should disclose their thoughts on reproducing, so too should the guys.

If I was unable to bear children for any reason- by choice or not- I would feel very strongly about letting my partner know. I wouldn't want to get into a committed relationship, only for my partner to really really want his own kids and then find out I'm unwilling or incapable of bearing them.

[Boozy]

How do people feel about that?

That's fine with me.

In fact, if a man is that certain he doesn't want kids, it's the most responsible thing to do. In my opinion, he doesn't have to consult anyone, even if he's married. He needs to inform his wife that there will be no children in their future, and let her decide if she wants to stay with him. But there's no need for any "negotiations". A child shouldn't be brought into the world just because one partner nagged the other into submission.

[tabbyblack13]

I personally believe that everyone has a right to control there reproductive systems. If a man wishes never to have children then a little snip in the nether regions should be an option. The same for women too. It doesn't matter the age of the person, it should be open for all.

As for abortion rights for the fathers. I don't want to cruel but the fathers need to stay out of it. Abortion is a very important choice for a woman and the fathers need to understand that it isn't easy. Women have abortions for many reasons.

If the father didn't want the child he will still have to pay if she chose to have the child. He should have the option to pay less if he decides to wave his parental rights.

[AFPheonix]

I actually think that abortion should not even be an option. You don't want a child, give it up for adoption.

Not even when you find out you're going to give birth to this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly)
How about this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exencephaly)

I wouldn't make a woman bear something into the world that's going to pretty much die right away, why would you? There's many reasons for abortion in this world, not just because a gal doesn't feel like getting saggy tits.

No, I don't think the father should stay out of the discussion, either. If it is the product of an abuse situation than sure, he can go stuff himself. But normal relations, the father is allowed to have his opinion, he's allowed to express it to his mate. He is, after all, part of the whole thing so he's allowed to put his oar in too.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Being forced to carry a child and give birth must be terribly traumatic, both physically and mentally; almost in a way akin to being forced to have sex. It's a very rare woman who wouldn't be affected at all at being denied her right to not have a child that she doesn't want. That kind of view is heading backwards to a more intolerant time, and shouldn't be around today.

[DesignFox]

I encourage everyone who has an opinion on abortion to read The Cider House Rules.

Don't cheat and watch the movie. That waste of celluloid misses the point of the novel entirely.

The book is not for the faint of heart, but, aside from being a really good story, it makes you think twice about a lot of things in life.

[AdminAssistant]

I'd also recommend Keely and Du a play by "Jane Martin" (well known to be a pen name, but not know who it actually is). It's a very powerful piece on abortion.

[Seshat]

Men can abstain, use condoms, or get a vasectomy. What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

Fine with me. Ditto for a woman getting sterilised. I think either should be able to do so freely.

As I've said in abortion threads, in my ideal world, contraception is reliable, reversible, harmless and cheap. And available to both genders. Parents have the option (and IMO, strong recommendation) to get their kids contraception circa puberty, and people get it reversed when both parties agree they want to have kids.

This sort of world would make the whole abortion issue almost moot. The two major reasons for abortion in this world would be medical issues, and rape during the time someone was fertile.



But we don't have that perfect, fair world. And in this imperfect world, I think a person should have the right to choose not to carry a baby. See any of the abortion threads for the list of complications of a normal pregnancy. Some are horrific!
I also think that in this imperfect world, a person shouldn't be forced to have elective surgery done on his/her body.

I chose gender-neutral terms for that because it is a gender-neutral thing for me. Noone should be forced to face the complications of pregnancy, nor of elective surgery.
Sheer physical practicality denies fathers the same rights as mothers. And I'm sorry about that.

However, I do believe that the decision about keeping the baby or not should be made by the couple, in cooperation with their moral advisor/s of choice, and their medical advisor/s of choice. Only if the couple are unable to come to an agreement, should the mother's choice override the father's. And they and their advisor/s should do everything they can to come to an agreement.


Since fathers don't have the same rights, I think something should be doable to try to find a compromise position.

If the final decision is abortion, the father should help fund it, and help the mother through the physical aspects of it. And both should be offered counselling support. Equal counselling support - as has been pointed out, the father may have wanted to have the kid!

If the final decision is adoption, the father should help the mother through the pregnancy and its aftermath, and both - again - should have counselling support. And if the mother gets a pregnancy-caused problem, the father should help the mother through that as well.
This help may be financial, especially if the pregnancy or its complications renders the mother unable to work. It should certainly be physical, pregnancy can be bloody hard on a woman's body. And both should have emotional support, from each other and from the community.

If the final decision of one parent is adoption and the other parent wants to keep the child, the parent who wishes to keep the child should be allowed to (presuming there's no history of abuse, neglect etc). The parent who chose to adopt the child out forgoes all rights & responsibilities.
The other becomes a sole parent - and freely chooses to do so, knowing the situation.


.... and you know, that just clarified to me what the obligation should be of a father who wants the child aborted, when the mother doesn't. Why should his obligation be any greater than that of a parent who chooses to give their child up for adoption?
So again. Support during the pregnancy and for pregnancy complications. And then he signs over his rights to the child just as he would if he were adopting the kid out.
Yes, this gives him more responsibility than a woman has if she chooses the elective surgery of an abortion. But I think this is probably fair - a woman having an abortion has the risk of surgery complications. The man helping a woman through a pregnancy has a nine-months-or-so commitment.
I think that's as fair as biology is going to let us make it.

[Peppergirl]

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but I find it EXTREMELY ironic that women supposedly 'have control of their own bodies', but the VAST majority of them who consult a doctor about sterilization before the age of 30, are given a whole load of BULLSHIT about it by doctors. :rant:

But let a guy in his 20s, even VERY EARLY 20s, decide to get a vascectomy - no FUCKING PROBLEM in most cases. Makes me sick.

Sharing an EXTREMELY personal story:

Some of you know I have two boys. I am 40 and my boys are 22 and almost 19. I had them VERY young, obviously. I was married for nearly 15 years to the father of my second child. He is 2 years older than me.

When I was about 23 or 24, I became pregnant again. My kids were 6 and 4 and I was not happy because I knew I didn't want anymore. I could barely handle the two I had! For the record, I *was* using birth control with both my second and third pregnancies.

I was waffling, going back and forth on the issue of abortion. My now ex-husband didn't want anymore kids either, so we were really struggling with the decision.

Ultimately, the decision was made by someone other than us. I suffered a miscarriage in my second month. I was secretly relieved, because the decision had been taken care of. Sounds cold, but I knew I wasnt ready for more.

After I healed, I consulted my doctor about getting my tubes tied. I was 23 or 24 at the time, married with TWO kids and I knew I didn't want any more children. He refused...yes FUCKING REFUSED to do it, based upon my age!!

Yes, I switched doctors. Ultimately, it was easier to just have my ex husband (who was 25 or 26 at the time) get a vascectomy. No questions asked, of course.

Granted, this was in the early to mid 90s, but I'm appalled to see that apparently the double standard regarding sterilization is STILL alive and well by some physicians. :(

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yeah, that is pretty appalling. I understand why doctors do that...it's not really their decision to make, frankly, but I do understand what they are basing that on...but the double standard is mind boggling.

I have a friend that had a vasetomy at 17. No, that is not a typo. Seven Fucking Teen years old. True story. I didn't think it was possible to have such a thing done that young. Can you even get a tattoo at that age?

If he'd been a girl, you think I'd have a story to tell about it now? How can they make a ruling like that based on gender?

Mind blown.

[Seshat]

$METOO on the whole double standard regarding sterilisation. (mega, mega metoo)

But this thread is on fathers and abortion rights. Whoever wants to talk about the double-standard on sterilisation, please make a new thread on it.

Thanks.

[Cats]

To add even further insult to the injury of a woman not really having choice, unless things have changed in the past few years, a lot of insurance companies will NOT cover birth control pills for women, but WILL cover a few Vigara a month for a man. So a man has full control over his ability to be sterilized and can get cheap pills to help him get it up, but a woman has to suffer and fight to keep herself from having children she does not want to have? WTF?

Granted, I do know it is easier and less ricky to sterlize a man. However, I don't think doctors should be even allowed to refuse sterilze a woman. Yes, there are risks, and it aint cheap. But if a woman agrees to it, why the hell not? It's freaking easier to get liposuction, a face lift, 3 nosejobs and breast implants for pete's sake!


As for a man's choice to sterlize himself, I feel the same as abortion...in a commited relationship, it should be discussed, but his body, his final decision.

[Slytovhand]

Just a quick note:

I'd say there is far too cavalier an attitude towards sex, let alone abortion.

[AFPheonix]

To add even further insult to the injury of a woman not really having choice, unless things have changed in the past few years, a lot of insurance companies will NOT cover birth control pills for women, but WILL cover a few Vigara a month for a man. So a man has full control over his ability to be sterilized and can get cheap pills to help him get it up, but a woman has to suffer and fight to keep herself from having children she does not want to have? WTF?

Granted, I do know it is easier and less ricky to sterlize a man. However, I don't think doctors should be even allowed to refuse sterilze a woman. Yes, there are risks, and it aint cheap. But if a woman agrees to it, why the hell not? It's freaking easier to get liposuction, a face lift, 3 nosejobs and breast implants for pete's sake!


As for a man's choice to sterlize himself, I feel the same as abortion...in a commited relationship, it should be discussed, but his body, his final decision.

My state passed a bill in which insurers based out of our state had to cover birth control pills. But even before that, far more insurance companies than not covered birth control, and very few covered viagra. It's only been in the last year or so that I've seen companies start covering it, and at that it's maybe 4 tabs a month if the guy's lucky. (I work in a pharmacy)
I don't know about Wal-Mart or Kroger or whatever, but my chain's little discount plan covers several types of birth control at a lower price than ED meds. It will discount on both, so yay equality for the sexes, I suppose.

Getting tubes tied is indeed riskier than getting a vasectomy, but now that Essure is out, perhaps we'll see a change in doctors willingness to do the procedure. It's about as risky as putting in an IUD and it's a pretty quick office procedure to have it done.

[The Shadow]

But let a guy in his 20s, even VERY EARLY 20s, decide to get a vascectomy - no FUCKING PROBLEM in most cases. Makes me sick.

You know, it really irritates me when people take hearsay or anecdotes like this and try to pass them off as proof of some kind of universal and absolute truth.

The fact is, there are many - possibly even most - doctors who absolutely will not perform a vasectomy on men under 30. One man I know who's in his sixties now, got his when he was 34 and he had to do a bit of searching before he finally found a doctor who was willing. On his quest he encountered a doctor who said he didn't perform them on unmarried men, another said he wouldn't perform one on a man who didn't have at least a few kids and told him "come back in a few years after you've had some kids". He eventually found one who would, but even then he had to use a bit of persuasion to convince the doctor he was making an informed decision and understood what he was doing.

I'm not saying younger men can't get a vasectomy. In fact, I got mine when I was 27. But I had told my doctor I was pretty sure I never wanted kids of my own and I'm a person with an inheritable disability and I didn't want to risk passing that on to any offspring so even if I should change my mind later, I would still opt for this and have to look for alternative means of becoming a dad. I've always wondered if it would have been just as easy to get it were it not for all those factors.

I'm not denying that members of the medical community can still be very condescending and paternalistic to women and that women don't have as much choice and reproductive freedom as they should...they don't and I think there's a lot of unnecessary obstacles in their way and make no mistake...male privilege is still very much the order of the day. But that doesn't mean that men can just go out and get vasectomies willy-nilly.

[jackfaire]

but until they come up with a form of pill birth control for men, then that's how it is..

MT DEW!!! j/k

[jackfaire]

My dad passed away years ago it is relevant because a year and a half after it happened I was with my mom and she started crying. It all came out when her and my dad were first together she had gotten pregnant.

She never told my dad and she went and got an abortion. He lived the rest of his life never knowing he would have had 5 children instead of 4.

I still don't know if it was right or wrong that he didn't have a choice. But you know what when my mom got pregnant with my brother (second pregnancy) my dad didn't run.

She got the abortion because she thought he would.


Edit:

The second pregnancy was only a little over a 1 year or so later.

[fireheart17]

I hate the double standard thing as well. I do want a child further down the track, but given that I'm on antidepressants and such, I'm not sure my body could handle being pregnant at this stage.

As for the male's right to abortion, essentially it is the woman's body, so it is her right to choose whether she wants to abort the child or not. However, I'm still for the opinion that counselling is a requirement prior to abortion.

[Fashion Lad!]

This is such a tough call because it's ultimately up to the mother because it's her body. But, I do think father's should have some choice in it.

I'm not going to argue in defense of father's-to-be who don't want the child. I can't.

If I found myself in the situation where the girl I got pregnant doesn't want the baby and I do, I'd probably sue for my DNA. The law recognizes it's mine after the baby is born and DNA is matched.

I can't really speak too much on the subject because it is ultimately up to the woman. I don't carry a baby for 9-10 months, she does. In the end, if I really want that child I just have to accept the fact that she is the only one that can give it to me.

[Flyndaran]

I'm a man, and believe a man should have absolutely positively ZERO input on the WOMAN'S choice to get an abortion. My girlfriend has no right to make my medical decisions, so why should I her. I have a right to tell her how I feel about abortions, her, and everything about life, but no right to put any kind of pressure that might affect her choice.
A baby would be dangerous for my love muffin. I might have wanted kids if our sexes were reversed.. then again I would be a lesbian, so why would I shack up with a dude?