4th amendment rights

[squall]

I have a topic that really does not fit in any categories in the forums, so I put it here.

I recently used my Constitutional 4th amendment right not because I have something to hide or because I was doing anything wrong, but because I felt like it and was going to be late for work. I was sitting at a stoplight. A police car stopped behind me at the light. Commonly what officers do in my town when they are stuck at a light is to run the license plate and records of the people directly in front of them just to see what they can ticket/arrest them for. And the police in this town love to do searches. After years of putting up with this, wasting my time with searches that never yield anything because I don't carry contraband, I did something different. Mind you I don't make moving violations, I am just a little lazy about registering and inspecting my car on time. Yeah, real lazy I know. Sometime back I watched a video about using your 4th amendment rights to benefit you whether you break the law or follow all laws. It is very informative and has somewhat cheesy acting, it is fun to watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA&mode=related&search=.

Anyways, I go pulled over sometime back for having expired inspection. I was in a hurry to get to work, so I probably seemed a little focused and hurried with getting the ticketing process over with (a very easy ticket to fix if you get if inspected within 10 days). The police officer noticing my slight agitation at being stopped, asked me if I had been drinking:

me: No.

officer: Are you sure?

m: Well actually, I'm wasted off my ass. (Just kidding, I didn't say that) No.

o: Then you won't mind if I search your vehicle.

m: Oh, that won't be necessary. No search.

o: ??? You don't want a search? Is there something you are hiding? (I don't think this is the answer he is used to hearing)

m: No. I'm going to be late for work soon, I don't have time for it.

Officer gives me a glum look, his shoulders rise and fall and he lets out a sigh. He then says sternly "OK, you have a good day sir." He dejectedly walks back to his cruiser. But he forgot something. Before he had tried to search me, he had the ticket for my inspection all filled out and ready to give to me. He had been waiting on my signature. In his frustration, he forgot about giving me the ticket to sign. I sat a moment and wondered if I should let him just walk away and forget about giving me the ticket, or ask for it. I decide to do the helpful thing and ask him if he had forgotten to give me something. He's like "Oh...oh yeah." He gives it to me.

I think he was not used to being refused a search too often. He was a young cop, younger than me I'm sure, and I'm only 25. I think there are alot of people who don't know their Constitution well enough to know that they have a right to keep private the contents of their possessions from the police and the government, as long as they don't give probable cause of wrongdoing or have contraband out in plain view. As much as I like watching the show "Cops", it capitalizes on the ignorance of people who are stopped for unrelated offenses and end up getting booked because they let the cops search them. I've seen some cracked out drivers who could have gotten away with only a traffic citation if they had just refused a search, but I doubt stories like that get aired. They know the shit is in their glove compartment, or fanny packs, yet they let the search happen, and pretend to wonder where the stuff came from. It is entertaining to watch I'll admit, but it does not have to happen at all without a warrant, assuming it is not in plain view or you got reefer smoke pouring out the windows.

My point is, whether you are doing something illegal, you are in a hurry, or don't like being accused of hiding something, fight back with your right to be safe in your possessions, plead the 4th amendment. You can't get in trouble for doing it, you can avoid trouble by doing it. This includes not only your vehicle, but your home. They will not tell you about your 4th amendment right, your ignorance is their bliss. They may try to side-step you, use your open door as an invitation. Close that door and plead your 4th amendment right. No warrant no search.

[rahmota]

I'll agree that a person needs to be willing and ready to protect their privacy adn their property and invoking your rights is one way to do it. But the bad thing is that it has to be done carefully and judiciously as in the current political environment a person who does so can wind up in a lot more touble than not.

Yeah while an officer may know about the law/constitutional rights but more often than not he is either one who has the attitude that I am the law and you will obey and doesnt care about your rights or they are one who is a believer in the rightness of their actions and that only the guilty have a reason to hide. A very difficult place for a person to be. Especially if it is somethign that somehow winds up dealign with "homeland security" or some other hot point.

I am very surprised that you did not have more trouble from that officer than you did.

Modern society has forgotten too much and the balance of power has shifted to of the rich and corporate elite, by the rich and corporate elite, for the rich and corporate elite.

[Banrion]

If the suspicion is strong enough, and depending on the reason for being pulled, denying a search can only make things worse for you. For example: you were speeding lets say 85 in a 65. A cop pulls you over and is going to write you a ticket. Something tells him your hiding something. He asks to search the vehicle and you decline. Now instead of just giving a ticket, he ups the charge to wreckless driving which is and arrestable offense. So now you are under arrest, and search pursuant to arrest is always legal, unless you can prove the arrest was illegal as well.

*I use the 85 in a 65, because Connecticut recently passed a law that does make 20+ miles over the speed limit an automatic wreckless driving charge. A cop who is on your side will usually write a ticket for 84 mph, but if you give him a reason to be a hardass, he can be.

[CancelMyService]

If only the 4th amendment had as strong a lobby as the 2nd.

I like the whole "denying a warrantless search = you have something to hide" argument too. No one would ever trot that one out if/when someone exercises any other constitutional right. Maybe it just means you don't want someone nosing through your shit because they're fishing for something to ticket and/or arrest you on.

[Aldous]

I know in New Jersey that there is a law saying that if you are pulled over, and the officer asks to search the car, you don't have the right to say no. I don't know if that's everywhere, but that's what I heard in my Driving Class.

[rahmota]

I dont think I've heard about that in Ohio but I do know that all an officer has to do is show that he had probable cause to be suspicious and he can put you in the back ofhis car while he and any other offciers or dogs he feels necessary come and search you car, your person, your passengers etc.... Your refusing to acqueisce to a search could also fall under that probable cause.

A rather sad state of affairs.

[blas87]

If you have nothing to hide, just let them search and make asses of themselves.

I still have not yet been pulled over for my cracked windshield or out brake light.

But trust me, as soon as a cop does decide to go after me for it, their first assumption is going to be that I am either a) drunk b) have a warrant out or c) have drugs on me.

If a cop is going to make stupid assumptions like that about me and proceed to search, I'd rather him find nothing and feel like a total worthless ass afterwards.

[Greenday]

I know in New Jersey that there is a law saying that if you are pulled over, and the officer asks to search the car, you don't have the right to say no. I don't know if that's everywhere, but that's what I heard in my Driving Class.

What part of NJ do you live in? I've never heard of such a thing. I thought it was universal that if a cop asks to search your car, you have to right to say no. Though the cop can hold you until they get a warrant to search your car.

[CancelMyService]

If only the 4th Amendment had as many supporters as the 2nd. You have the right to tell someone they can't nose through your stuff looking for reasons to arrest they have a warrant.

[squall]

I guess my point with this argument is that if you INDEED are hiding something illegal, it absolutely WILL NOT HELP YOU in any way to have them search your vehicle and find it. You go to jail. If you say no and they have no absolutely clear indication that you have whatever it is, it WILL HELP you to say no. As far as I am aware, they cannot seize your vehicle until a warrant is issued, giving offenders time to do whatever they need to make the problem go away. When it comes down to going to jail and not going to jail, asserting your 4th amendment right can make ALL the difference, tacked on misdemeanors aside. And besides, getting a search warrant means alot more paperwork on their end, especially when it turns out they just wasted their time and found nothing incriminating. Never a desirable option for police.

[CancelMyService]

It just bothers me that a lot of people (including cops) think asserting your 4th amendment rights = you're guilty and/or hiding something. No one would dare assert someone with a thousand guns is preparing for a crime spree, they're just exercising their god-given rights to have more arms than most small nations.

[rahmota]

I'm not quite sure why or how this has slipped over into a discussion or slights against the second amendment and its suporters. But I'm not sure its all that nice. A person has the right to own as many firearms as they wish and ther eis nothign wrong or criminal or criminal intent in that. Just because a person owns 1 or 100 firearms means nothing. It is the actions the person takes that should be what is judged upon.

And that is one of the reason the 4th amendment was thought of to keep the authorities fm goign into a person's home and seeing firearms or knives or whatever else might be considered signs of illegal intent. It is for the protection of americans that all the bill of rights must be equally enforced.

Too bad american society has been allowed to slip as far as it has to where anyone who disagrees with the popular opinion is considered borderline crazy or worse.

[Nightwolf]

their first assumption is going to be that I am either a) drunk

Yep, you're on the mark with this one.

Didn't know about the fourth amendment thing for vehicle searches. I just don't analyze the amendment rights that much. I've had a few times that my car has been searched with no results. One time I almost got searched but made an ass out of the cop before he could insist.

I got pulled over for "Rolling" through a stop sign. It's not like I ran right through it, but I did slow down to a point where I was almost stopped. Apparently I was so involved in my discussion with my then GF, that I didn't even realize I had only "rolled" through it.

So, I got pulled over, and the first thing the jackass asks me is...

Cop: You been drinkin tonight?
Me: Nope
Cop: Oh really, shines light in the back of the car, then whats that open can of beer doing on the floor in the back?
Me: What beer can?
Cop: That one right there!
Me: OH! That purple can that says "FANTA GRAPE?"
Cop: Uh....yeah.....uh.....
Me: Can I go now?
Cop: Yeah, but next time stop when you see a stop sign.

What a jackass.

[CancelMyService]

I'm not quite sure why or how this has slipped over into a discussion or slights against the second amendment and its suporters. But I'm not sure its all that nice. A person has the right to own as many firearms as they wish and ther eis nothign wrong or criminal or criminal intent in that. Just because a person owns 1 or 100 firearms means nothing. It is the actions the person takes that should be what is judged upon.

And that is one of the reason the 4th amendment was thought of to keep the authorities fm goign into a person's home and seeing firearms or knives or whatever else might be considered signs of illegal intent. It is for the protection of americans that all the bill of rights must be equally enforced.

Too bad american society has been allowed to slip as far as it has to where anyone who disagrees with the popular opinion is considered borderline crazy or worse.

I mentioned it because the 2nd Amendment is considered nigh untouchable, yet the other Amendments tend not to have that same respect. No one thinks (or would dare mention if they do think) you were doing something wrong by exercising your 2nd Amendment rights, but they would if you used your 4th or 5th Amendment right.

It's just ridiculous how we as a society allow anyone claiming any type of authority to do whatever they want without question.

[Boozy]

No one thinks (or would dare mention if they do think) you were doing something wrong by exercising your 2nd Amendment rights, but they would if you used your 4th or 5th Amendment right.

Hmm...that's very true. I'd never thought about that before. Doesn't seem right, does it?

Although "pleading the 5th" is pretty specific...if you do so, people are probably right to assume that you're hiding something.

Not so with exercising your 4th amendment rights. There are lots of reasons to deny a search of your property, even if you have nothing to hide. Hell, I'd do it just to be a bitch. :p

[rahmota]

Well I'll agree that the second gets the most press time. But there are organizations that are there to protect the others. And believe it or not the NRA does care abotu and encourage its members to work to support the entire bill of rights not just the second.

The only thing is the press and media dont sell papers if you hear Citizen exercised their 4th amendment rights and was hiding nothing.

!st amendment rights exercised today as church leaders spoke out against the government.

Its usually used in conjunction with like Boozy said bad people plead the fifth to avoid getting into trouble. You see that sort of behavior in all the popular media. Watch law and order and see how they react when a person denies them a search request, CSI is another one guilty as heck of that. It shows people being bullyed into letting the cops search them and viola it shows why they where tryign to avoid being searched they where hiding something. So that puts a precedent into the minds of peopel that if you have somethign to hide is only when you can invoke your rights.

Its the way the media movies, tv shows, internet, games, books, everything shows the invocation of your rights as somethign a guilty person does to try and hide from the eyes of the heroic law enforcering good guys....

Sad thing is if you have to invoke your rights its already too late as the bad guys are not going to care.

[CancelMyService]

Well I'll agree that the second gets the most press time. But there are organizations that are there to protect the others.


Yeah, but those groups (like the ACLU) are usually labeled as evil and "America-hating" because they tend to point out how a lot of the laws passed in the last 6 years or so are patently unconstitutional.


And believe it or not the NRA does care abotu and encourage its members to work to support the entire bill of rights not just the second.


Yes, but the NRA clearly focuses a great deal of it's efforts on the Second. If they really had interest in all the Amendments they wouldn't support so many candidates that favor unconstitutional laws just because they had the "correct" views on gun issues.


!st amendment rights exercised today as church leaders spoke out against the government.


This is actually a hot button issue for me. Personally I don't fee churches should be tax exempt, but since they are they should not be used for political purposes. When you're in a building where you're taught what you hear there is the undeniable word of God, it's really not the place for politicking, which happens a great deal in PA.



Finally, while I do like crime shows (especially the Law & Order franchise), they do go out of their way to illustrate that the cops are always correct and you should always allow them to conduct a search. Doing otherwise is a dead giveaway that you're the criminal and/or have something hidden.

[rahmota]

Yeah, but those groups (like the ACLU) are usually labeled as evil and "America-hating" Yep those in power hate to be reminded of their abuse of power. So they set up a negative propaganda campaign and this is the result of it.

Yes, but the NRA clearly focuses a great deal of it's efforts on the Second. If they really had interest in all the Amendments they wouldn't support so many candidates that favor unconstitutional laws just because they had the "correct" views on gun issues true the NRA does set the rpiroitiy on protecting the second amendment higher than they probably should (and I'm a life member sayign this) but there is the ILA (Institute for Legal Action) http://www.nraila.org which is there for the grassroots and legal actions adn they do get involve in situations supporting the rest of the rigts, especially where they interconnect with the 2nd..

Personally I don't fee churches should be tax exempt, but since they are they should not be used for political purposes

Agreed as to that. The example I used was the first one that came to mind that would combine the various aspects of the 1st amendment. Personally if a church wants to become involved in any way shape or form in politics then it should give up its tax exempt status. Of course I also think churches should be more tightly regulated as to their actions and supports involving politics in general otherwise they should be liscenced.

[EmiOfBrie]

I know in New Jersey that there is a law saying that if you are pulled over, and the officer asks to search the car, you don't have the right to say no. I don't know if that's everywhere, but that's what I heard in my Driving Class.

Even if there is such a law, it's unconstitutional. Constitution trumps state laws.

[MadMike]

Personally if a church wants to become involved in any way shape or form in politics then it should give up its tax exempt status.

George Carlin said something like that once. "If they're so interested in politics, let them pay their fucking admission like everyone else!"