Illegal immigration...

[Boozy]

...is the cause du jour for closet racists.

Its become completely unacceptable for politicians to rally the redneck population around hatred of black people. So they've turned on Mexicans now because they can veil that prejudice into an argument against "illegals".

"Illegals" = Mexicans, aka people who aren't white.

I suspect I'll get people responding who say they have a problem with illegal immigration and aren't racist. And I'll believe you - if you have made the effort to develop a real understanding of US immigration and security policies and find them lacking.

But I just can't shake the feeling that the people making the most noise about this issue are basing their opinions on skin colour.

[Greenday]

You sure it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that illegal immigrants hurt America's economy? It just happens that Mexicans happen to be the majority of this problem. Every dollar an illegal makes and sends back home, into another nation, is hurting our economy. They sure as hell don't deserve free health care or any other government type of support. If they don't pay taxes to the government, why should the government spend money to help them?

And for another matter, I think there needs to be harsher punishments for illegal immigrants who commit crimes within the US. Many times, the criminals will be given a choice to either stand trail or to just be sent back to wherever they come from. The obvious choice is to be kicked out, as they can just come right back in and continue whatever crimes they are doing. One such example was a man from Mexico, who illegally came into America, and during his stay, committed a few murders. He is given the option to go back to Mexico, which he does, and then guess what happens. That's right, comes right back in illegally again, and commits murder again. He never should have even been given that opportunity.

Greenday, who's not racist, because he hates everyone.

[AFPheonix]

Hurt the economy? HURT??
The economy RUNS on these people's backs, especially agriculture. Just about every job that white people work relies on the grunt work that these people put in.
I believe we get MORE illegal immigrants from Canada, and we also get a huge amount from Asia, too. Do you ever hear complaining about the whities or the asians that are here illegally? No, of course not.

Do we need immigration reform? Yes, yes we do. Guess what, a wall ain't gonna cut it. If the US is so concerned about hispanic immigration, how about we start helping the countries that so many people are coming from turn into places that the immigrants don't need to leave to live? Now THAT'S something I have yet to hear any of the pols suggest.

[Greenday]

We have to help ourselves before we should start helping other people. Out of the 300 million plus Americans inside America, at least 14.4 million are unemployed. Compare that to Mexico's almost 3.5 million. America's unemployment rate is 4.8%. Mexico's is 3.2%. Or what about Canada? 2,136,969 unemployed. As far as jobs go, America needs the biggest fixing. When a small minority of people own the majority of the income of this country, something is messed up.

I agree a wall wouldn't do much. At best, it'll just create some jobs to build it, but there's other stuff we could build instead of a stupid wall. Like an American version of the Autobahn.

[Boozy]

When a small minority of people own the majority of the income of this country, something is messed up.

And you can bet your life on the fact that this small minority is doing everything in their power (under the table, of course) to prevent any major crackdown on illegal immigration.

They need these people to work in their factories and clean their houses. Right now they are able to pay illegal immigrants far less than minimum wage to do it. Wal-Mart is a major offender.

The biggest misconception seems to be that jobs are somehow finite, so people coming into the country (illegally or otherwise) are taking these jobs. Obviously, we know that's not true. Population growth and immigration create jobs.

[AFPheonix]

Exactly. And these are the jobs that a lot of Americans who are jobless who have already had cracks at them and frankly just don't take because they are dirty, repetitive, are physically demanding, and don't pay well. It makes being a McD's drone look good.

I'm not talking even house cleaning, although that's definitely one. I'm talking shelling seafood, picking berries, etc.

[ShockQueen]

I agree that, for the most part, Mexicans (as well as any race) are decent, hardworking people. I have no problem with those who contribute to our economy in a positive way (paying taxes and taking accountability and at least TRY to get in the right way), but those who just sneak over, take our money and ship it back "home", and get away with not paying taxes - those are the ones that I have issues with.:mad:

[NightAngel]

I live in an area that is highly populated with immigrants. I'm quite sure that many of them are here illegally- then again many others are here legally. There's no way you can know for sure just by looking at them. What I have seen is horrible intolerance, name calling, racial slurs, etc. being hurled at them.

Illegal immigrants quite often do work that most Americans deem themselves 'to good' for. I have, as yet, to find even one American- no matter how needy of work- who will go out and work the orange crops. It's hard, hot, long days, thankless, very low paying labor.
Try suggesting that job to someone American born and raised- it isn't received well or they assume you're joking.

Then you have to take into account that while they may be sending money home to support their families they are also spending money here. They have to eat, sleep and be clothed. So, in that they are supporting our economy and they are paying sales taxes and the the like. Trust me- they shop at the same places I do. They are my neighbors, my customers, my co- existors.

Personally, I really don't have a problem with them.

[Aldous]

I have don't a problem with anyone who decides to come over illegally since it could take years to get here legally. As long as the illegal ones don't raise too much of a fuss. Meaning that once they get here, not to raise a riot that no one speaks their language, and not go for a quick fix when it comes to cash. Anyone who's willing to work, go for it. You're not taking American jobs, since how many times do we see "Americans" (Read: white) working the fields? I worked with a few Illegals, and I can say that I would rather work with them, despite the language barrier than with anyone else. They did their job, rarely complained, and learned enough englsih to get by, and even hold a decent conversation. Those people I respect. I also respect the company for paying them normally, normal wage, with taxes taken out. Not under the table, no taxes etc. I think that there should be harsher punsihments for company's caught paying illegal immigrants under the table, even though they are illegal, because that would give incentive for the company to hire anyone, and not just cheap labor. Now the Mexican situation could have been solved in the 1800's, if you believe in Machiavellian principles, and taking over the entirity of Mexico after the Mexican War. But that's another discussion (One I got into some serious trouble for in school, because it was "racist," when I brought it during a discussion of illegal immigration from Mexico)

[Fuzzykitten99]

I have don't a problem with anyone who decides to come over illegally since it could take years to get here legally. As long as the illegal ones don't raise too much of a fuss. Meaning that once they get here, not to raise a riot that no one speaks their language, and not go for a quick fix when it comes to cash. Anyone who's willing to work, go for it. You're not taking American jobs, since how many times do we see "Americans" (Read: white) working the fields? I worked with a few Illegals, and I can say that I would rather work with them, despite the language barrier than with anyone else. They did their job, rarely complained, and learned enough englsih to get by, and even hold a decent conversation. Those people I respect. I also respect the company for paying them normally, normal wage, with taxes taken out. Not under the table, no taxes etc. I think that there should be harsher punsihments for company's caught paying illegal immigrants under the table, even though they are illegal, because that would give incentive for the company to hire anyone, and not just cheap labor. Now the Mexican situation could have been solved in the 1800's, if you believe in Machiavellian principles, and taking over the entirity of Mexico after the Mexican War. But that's another discussion (One I got into some serious trouble for in school, because it was "racist," when I brought it during a discussion of illegal immigration from Mexico)

What you just said is a direct slap in the face to every hardworking LEGAL immigrant who worked their asses off to ABIDE BY THE FEDERAL LAWS of this country.

So it takes a few years to become a citizen. Deal with it, and when you become legal, take the appropriate paths to maybe get the ball rolling on a quicker citizenship process. Apparently those who have gone through the process weren't deterred by the length. They were proud that they were following the laws.

I can see why some would risk their lives to come here for jobs that they can't find in their country. However breaking the federal laws isn't the way to go.

And those who say that illegals take the jobs other Americans won't, are full of themselves. Do they really think that if I was being paid $15 at my last job and I am looking for a new job, do you really think I am going to search for a job that pays only $6-7 when I know my skills and knowledge in various fields are worth more? Is working at McDonalds below me? No, as I worked there for 6 years from freshman year of high school through about age 21. I would take a job there again if it would support my family sufficiently, but it would not. So I would then have to work two jobs to do that. Why, would I work two jobs and see my family less, if I am able to be hired at one job for the same or more than what I was making at a previous job? Most individuals apply for the jobs that pay the most, not so much the type of job, as they should know what the job they're applying to involves.

Not only that, is many of the jobs you also talk about, are typically jobs that don't require vast knowldge or skills. The jobs usually pay what the market dictates, which is the number of workers available with those kinds of skills in ratio to the number of jobs that are open for those people. The more you have to know and/or do, the more they are likely to pay. I worked my way up to making $15/hour before I quit my job to stay home with my boys. I didn't start out making that, nor should I have.

Why do you think truck drivers, construction workers, and heavy equipment operators get paid what they do? Because of not only skills and knowldge and often certification and licensing, but supply and demand. Right now, damn near everyone going through college wants something to do with computers or some sort of office job. Your point about being afraid of hard work and getting dirty is kind of true in this case. It is all about job prospects of your chosen field. In too many cases, people say "Oh, I want to do X job for a career" , not taking into account the demand for those kinds of workers. Then they complain about unemployment and no jobs. So whose fault is it then? Certainly not the government's and contrary to what some believe, not President Bush's either. He didn't make you major in the field that you did.

My husband has his Class A License, and has certifications in several pieces of heavy equipment. He has never set foot inside a college classroom and was a C+/B- student at best in high school, yet he makes $25/hour, far more than the average entry level college grad. But he didn't start there either, as a 19yo kid straight out of high school. He started making around $9 for his first employer. He gained knowldge and experience while working with them, and got trained on one thing after another. His current employer trained him on a class A truck and he passed his test and has been driving them for over a year.

He is now getting job offers from places like FedEx and UPS and such practiically begging him to come work for them, because Class A licensed drivers are in short supply. Problem is, he'd have to take a cut in pay to do it.

I guess the bottom line is, if illegal immigrants have the skills and knowldge to be able to obtain higher-paying jobs, what are they doing crossing illegally in the first place?

[rahmota]

Well considering how american jobs are going south of the border anyhow I wonder why they feel the need to sneak over here. We should be sneaking over there to work in our factories! Especially as jobs are finite, rare and difficult to find in america regardless of what kind they are.

Personally I dont care one way or the other either close the borders compleately and build a wall that would make the berlin wall pale in comparison or open the borders totally and forget the difference between legal and illegal. But at least pick a system that makes sense, is cohesive and coherent and above all else works better than the hodgepodge of chaos we have now.

[AFPheonix]

And those who say that illegals take the jobs other Americans won't, are full of themselves. Do they really think that if I was being paid $15 at my last job and I am looking for a new job, do you really think I am going to search for a job that pays only $6-7 when I know my skills and knowledge in various fields are worth more? Is working at McDonalds below me? No, as I worked there for 6 years from freshman year of high school through about age 21.

I think you missed my point. I wasn't talking about being a McD's grunt. I was talking about jobs that suck even harder than being a McD's grunt.
Do you live in a rural area? If you do, how many white people do you see out picking strawberries in the hot sun?
How many white people do you see standing on street corners to get picked up to go buck hay for a day?
I DO live in a rural area. I see zero white people doing these things. There's a reason why, it's because these kinds of menial jobs suck ass, but are entirely necessary. Someone's got to do it, these guys are willing and they work fucking HARD.

[rahmota]

AFP: That must be a regional thing. I live in rural SW Ohio. I see 90% of the people doing the things you are talking about being caucasion (whites) with probably another 8% african american, amerind, and other making up the other 2%. People are damned glad to do those jobs around here and its a matter of pride to say you are a farmer. I mayself have done my time on the haywagon pulling bales up and tossing them in the barn. Maybe around the urban areas where people have it easy thats the attitude just not around here.

Although one of the local major companies (DHL/ABX) managed to get themselves in trouble by having illegal mexicans bussed into their wilmington facilty from Dayton to sort mail and packages for under the table pay. INS came in arressted and deported all of them and several of the management types got into deep water over it. They where not the first nor only ones to do so in this area. In my awareness most companies only use illegals so they can get away with not paying fair wages and benefits like they would if they hired american citizens.

I mean I got no problem with someone who works within the system and pays their dues but a lot of the illegals come over are exploited, are used in place of american citizens (whomever they are) in jobs that are hard to find and replace and are only available in finite numbers or come over here and commit crimes or jump on our welfare system that is supposed to help the citizens of america not just anyone who happens to stroll across the border. The system as it stands now is broken and needs to be fixed. And the more I think about it the more I like putting a ditch or a wall or something up and making it harder for illegals to get into this country from any direction.

[AFPheonix]

Perhaps it is a regional thing, although it sounded like it was the same story over in Night Angel's neck of the woods.

The Pacific Northwest has a lot of berry fields and a lot of plant nurseries. When my sisters and I were kids, they used to bus us to the strawberry fields to pick. I guess we tended to get in too many berry fights, because now all I see are migrant workers out in the berry patches.

When INS started cracking down more on illegals, we had a lot of crops here that just flat out didn't make it in out of the fields before they went bad.

[Fuzzykitten99]

I think you missed my point. I wasn't talking about being a McD's grunt. I was talking about jobs that suck even harder than being a McD's grunt.
Do you live in a rural area? If you do, how many white people do you see out picking strawberries in the hot sun?
How many white people do you see standing on street corners to get picked up to go buck hay for a day?
I DO live in a rural area. I see zero white people doing these things. There's a reason why, it's because these kinds of menial jobs suck ass, but are entirely necessary. Someone's got to do it, these guys are willing and they work fucking HARD.
The Mcdonalds' job was just my own example. I would take any job, if I was unable to find any work AT ALL in the field that I desired at the salary level desired. I think you missed my point that it's not that Americans refuse to do the work, its just that if I have the opportunity to do something better for more money, do you really think I would turn it down for a lower-paying one? No one is forcing those workers to stay in that particular job. They can go and apply for whatever they choose. If they are not qualified to do better work, then that is their problem, not your's, not mine, not the President's. Honestly, if the berry-picking job paid better or equal to the mcD's job and those are the only two that I had to choose from, then you betcherass I would take the berry-picking job. Why? Because I prefer to work outdoors and I don't mind physical labor. But as the McD's job probably pays more and is still manual labor, which do you think I am gonna pick? I'll make a small sacrifice if it means a higher wage to support my family.

It isn't even just Americans who prefer to choose to do the better of two things. It is human nature to strive for the higher pay, the best working conditions, the company that offers the best benefits, etc. Human nature is programed to go for the best of everything when possible.

If someone works in a berryfield for several years, and they are getting paid virtually nothing, no one is forcing them to work there. They CAN go and find another higher-paying job. They have NO reason to complain about the hard job they have, when they volunteered to do it.

[Boozy]

It isn't even just Americans who prefer to choose to do the better of two things. It is human nature to strive for the higher pay, the best working conditions, the company that offers the best benefits, etc. Human nature is programed to go for the best of everything when possible.

Which is why when you live in a country that offers no jobs whatsoever, and your family is starving, and the state police are possibly harassing you for speaking out against your corrupt government, and you fear for your life and the lives of your family, you brave the sometimes treacherous journey to America where picking berries in a field, while a difficult job and low-paying by American standards, will provide you with food and shelter and relative safety.

There are few illegal immigrants who, when faced between living illegally in America and living with fear and despair in their native countries, will choose the latter. You are right - its human nature.

You've implied that these migrant workers "complain" - I suspect they actually just keep their heads down.

Let's worry less about those who come here illegally, who are doing exactly what we would all do in their situations, and focus on what America can do to improve the conditions in other countries. America is the richest nation in the world, and yet gives less as a percentage of their GNP for foreign aid than any other industrialized country in the world. And US foreign and economic policy is largely to blame for these conditions to begin with.

[Puckishone]

Point the Firste:

It is human nature to strive for the higher pay, the best working conditions, the company that offers the best benefits, etc. Human nature is programed to go for the best of everything when possible.

When I worked in HR, I can't tell you how many times we saw applicants who, quite seriously, were only applying because of the pay (the company was the highest-paying in the area for janitorial work). They wanted the pay but balked at shift work (which was mandatory, since this was in a hospital). They wanted the pay but turned their noses up at having to clean up patient-care areas (again, big sign on the front door with "HOSPITAL" in big letters). They wanted the pay and hoped to do as little work as possible in the process. And this included whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, women, men, young and old: they came for the money, pure and simple. So in my opinion I'd say that the nature of humans is to get the most bang for the least buck.

Pointe the Seconde:

Just because someone earns $X and not $Y is not necessarily an indicator of the complexity of the work or a reflection of the person's skills...I know a number of scientists who earn less than I do (as a CSR) and yet are highly educated and skilled individuals. Geographical and market differences have a lot to do with this, as does the profession and industry involved.

Ye Olde Conclusion:

My sympathy for illegal immigrant workers eroded greatly when the first rally promoting their "rights" marched through our downtown area during rush hour. To break the law by coming to any country illegally and then have the gall to demand your rights is just beyond the pale, IMO.

[rahmota]

First off: I'll agree with Puck about the "rights marches" I look at those and all I see is an easy pickings for INS. Just get the big net and one stop shopping. If you are here illegally keep your mouth shut and dont broadcast it by causing a ruckus marching down mainstreet at high noon. It dont work in the real world just in the movies. Although it does show how far american society has come in relation to other countries in that the big net is generally not used.

And now Fuzzy:no one is forcing them to work there. They CAN go and find another higher-paying job. You are again operating under the assumption that 1: There are other jobs available to these people in their area. 2: That if there is other jobs available being illegals they cannot always work these jobs so therefore the "available" jobs really are not as available as first look thought. and 3: No one is forcing them to work there. By limiting the availability of work permits, using INS as a threat, or otherwise limiting the options one has it may not be the same as forcing someone at gunpoint but a lack of options is still forcing someone to take the only options available.

AFP: Maybe it is regional. I dont know. Ohio is far enough from the mexican border I guess and we have enough of our own surplus workers that we dont use migrants. Also most farms in Ohio are family owned and not big company farms so the ones who work the farm are usuaally the family members and any friends or neighbors/associates who need work.

[AFPheonix]

do something better for more money, do you really think I would turn it down for a lower-paying one? No one is forcing those workers to stay in that particular job. They can go and apply for whatever they choose. If they are not qualified to do better work, then that is their problem,


If someone works in a berryfield for several years, and they are getting paid virtually nothing, no one is forcing them to work there. They CAN go and find another higher-paying job. They have NO reason to complain about the hard job they have, when they volunteered to do it.

Again, I think you missed my point. I'm not saying that migrant workers are bitching that they aren't moving up the ladder (although there are several that I know that started out as berry pickers, jumped at the chance for citizenship the last time amnesty was offered back in the early 90's, and now run their own business), I'm saying that complaining about migrants taking American jobs is a cop out. They're not really taking any jobs that a white american would touch. However, the jobs that they are doing are entirely necessary not only for local economy, but also for the national one as well.

And yes Puck, I agree with you that it was idiotic of those marchers to wave Mexican flags in the flipping US, wanting rights that they aren't privy to, as they are not citizens.
I did notice that there really weren't any asians out there, though. Chinese migrants know to keep out of the spotlight, I suppose.

[powerboy]

First off: I'll agree with Puck about the "rights marches" I look at those and all I see is an easy pickings for INS. Just get the big net and one stop shopping. If you are here illegally keep your mouth shut and don't broadcast it by causing a ruckus marching down main street at high noon. It don't work in the real world just in the movies. Although it does show how far American society has come in relation to other countries in that the big net is generally not used.




I agree with you on that. The city that I am in, will higher the illegals over the legals.

Companies want to have all the money that they can. So there fore, they will pay as little as they can.

[CancelMyService]

Firstly, I think the OP was right when she (hope I got the gender right) said that immigration is the new codeword for racists. Not that everyone who has an issue with it is racist, but it certainly has allowed racist minded people to come out of the woodwork and speak freely as long as they make sure they use the word "illegals" instead of blacks/hispanics/etc.

Secondly, the companies that hire the illegal immigrants by and large get a pass unless they get caught doing something stupid, like when Verizon hired illegals to run their fiber optic cables around the Pittsburgh area and then they got caught driving a piece of shit truck with like 7 dudes inside. While people go back and forth trying to crucify immigrants, the companies who hire them laugh all the way to the bank.

Thirdly, it's funny to see so many people in this country being all "RAHHH IMMIGRANTS!!" since unless you're Native American, you come from immigrants. Not all of them legal. Hell, sometimes the legal ones got shit on too. My family experienced the joy of businesses posting NO IRISH NEED APPLY signs, which is ironic considering the current debate.

[Rapscallion]

Thirdly, it's funny to see so many people in this country being all "RAHHH IMMIGRANTS!!" since unless you're Native American, you come from immigrants.

There's some thought that the Native Americans originally came from Mongolia over the ice bridge to Alaska. Several similarities exist, such as lack of facial hair etc.

I guess we're all immigrants from somewhere. When seems to be the important part.

Rapscallion

[Nightwolf]

I really don't think this has a lot to do with skin color as much as it does other issues. Like many mentioned in previous posts. Like the example of companies hiring these workers over legal US citizens to save money. Thats just a whole level of unethical crap I just can't stand.

I personally have a major issue with illegals when they come over, make no attempt at becoming a citizen, and then commit crimes thinking they have a "right" to our system when they aren't even a citizen. THATS where my major beef is.

[CancelMyService]

Skin color has a lot to do with it since a vast majority of the people upset at immigrants seem to only focus on Hispanic ones. When someone rails against "illegals" they aren't usually talking about the Asian lady at the nail salon who may or may not have done all the paperwork to be here legally.

[AFPheonix]

We get more illegal immigrants from Canada yearly than we do from the countries south of us. Oddly, I've never heard one peep about building a wall along our northern border before....

[Boozy]

We get more illegal immigrants from Canada yearly than we do from the countries south of us. Oddly, I've never heard one peep about building a wall along our northern border before....

Hee hee. My (Canadian) uncle was an illegal immigrant in the US for a while. He's a high-ranking executive with a major corporation...due to government bureaucracy, it took so long getting his work visa in order that he ended up living as an "illegal" in Detroit for a year and a half.

We had a lot of fun at his expense over that one. :D

[Nightwolf]

Skin color has a lot to do with it since a vast majority of the people upset at immigrants seem to only focus on Hispanic ones.

I assume this is because of the vast majority of political and media coverage on this. I agree that we don't hear enough about every illiegal in this country from other areas, but could it be that the biggest concentration of offenders is coming from the same area?

I could actually see the same argument coming from anywhere if it was as big of a case. Remember the big deal with Cuba and all the immigrants floating over on boats? I'd like to think that really wasn't color either. I really do think it's where the biggest concentration is coming from at present time. But of course, this is all just my opinion formed by what i'm fed through the bullcrap machine that is known as "the media"

[CancelMyService]

Well the Cuba stuff was more an offshoot of the Cold War and "OMG COMMIEZ~!" than immigration and potential racism (although that may have been an added bonus for some).

I'd be more willing to believe the current fuss is not racially biased if it wasn't for the fact that there are two countries bordering the US, and we want to build walls and have crazies with guns patrol the one that 1) Is shorter 2) Hasn't been a known entry point for terrorists 3) Has brown people on the other side.

[blas87]

I think the whole point is that my great and great-great grandparents came to this country to Ellis Island in the early 1900s LEGALLY. They traveled to find farming type jobs (yes, grunt work). But they flourished.

I am not being racist, I am just merely pointing out that during the enormous European immigration of the early 1900s, you didn't see looters and "illegal alien pride" parades and the ridiculous things you see illegal immigrants doing these days.

It's a whole other discussion in itself, but if any of the European immigrants committed a murder or other crime of any sort, he or she would do the proper time. There was no choice of going back.

[Boozy]

I am not being racist, I am just merely pointing out that during the enormous European immigration of the early 1900s, you didn't see looters and "illegal alien pride" parades and the ridiculous things you see illegal immigrants doing these days.

Those days saw the formation of Irish and Italian gangs and the beginnings of organized crime.

Most Irish and Italian immigrants didn't want to become criminals in their new homeland, but racism often prevented them from getting jobs.

[Greenday]

Those days saw the formation of Irish and Italian gangs and the beginnings of organized crime.

Better organized than the unorganized crime we see today. Hell, gangs these days will shoot ANYONE without reason.

[AFPheonix]

Gangs are a form of organized crime. There's quite a few of the older gangs that have gotten quite crafty and are making a lot of money off of the drug trade.

"Unorganized" crime as you put it has its roots in other problems and isn't nearly as insidious as organized crime. Your standard street thug might mug a few people on the street. The Mob infiltrated Government on several levels.

So, I will have to heartily disagree with you. Neither are a good thing, I will grant, but I'd rather take one stupid street tough who gets his stupid ass shot over something stupid over the wolf in sheep's clothing who's hobnobbing with one hand and shaking down other people with the other.

[rahmota]

Over on the draft thread I posted this thought and it would work here too.

Service grants citizenship.

Right now a person is born they get the "right" to drive, vote, have access to food stamps, afdc, all sorts of free govt programs, as well as full protection of the constitution and bill of rights of the united states of america. You cross the border you fill out some papers you wait and then viola you have the same rights as someone born here.

Most americans havent really earned their rights either but thats a rant for something else. But an easy way for an outsider to gain citizenship would be to use them, their skills and their abilities in some sort of compulsory service. Be it military, or civil. You serve 5 years and then you get your citizenship. During that 5 year period they are taught civic pride, duty and a sense of citizenship as well as the language, laws and practical aspects of america. (somethign I think some americans could use as well) Yeah this might seem to some to be just a cheap source of labor and conscripts for the military as no doubt a lot of people would take that route for one reason or another but it is not much different than having corporate america exploit illegals. And at least this way they gain their citizenship through honest work and not just sneaking in.

Anyhow its just an idea thats been rattling around and finally escaped. SO what do you think?

[Greenday]

rahmota, that sounds a lot like one of the early scenes from Starship Troopers. I mean, it plays a huge part of the movie so I wouldn't be surprised if that gave you the idea.

[rahmota]

Greenday: yeah that is one of my major inspirations. A lot of the political ideas Heinlein had and which run through his works make a good bit of sense to me.

Some of the works like To Us the Living, Starship Troopers and The Moon is Harsh Mistress have social ideas that could work if given a chance in reality.

[Greenday]

I honestly like the idea. You actually have to do something for the country to gain citizen ship. You have to actually EARN your way.

Would you like to know more?