KFC Twister causes brain damage? [Archive]

IDrinkaRum

08-03-2009, 08:53 PM

11-year-old girl from
Australia and her lawyers are suing KFC for giving her a salmonella infected Twister which in turn caused her brain damage. (http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2009/08/03/kfc-chicken-twister-causes-brain-damage-says-11-year-old-sui/?icid=main|aimzones|dl3|link5|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wal letpop.com%2Fblog%2F2009%2F08%2F03%2Fkfc-chicken-twister-causes-brain-damage-says-11-year-old-sui%2F%0D%0A)

Greenday

08-03-2009, 09:31 PM

Hey, it's what the doctors said caused it. KFC is majorly screwed on this one.

Boozy

08-03-2009, 11:39 PM

Yeah, I can't see much of a defense for KFC being mounted here. They screwed up bad, and it's going to cost them.

Greenday

08-04-2009, 12:36 AM

KFC is a horrible, horrible company as it is. Ever see the treatment the chickens get? Some of them aren't even dead when boiled.

Nyoibo

08-04-2009, 02:47 AM

KFC is a horrible, horrible company as it is. Ever see the treatment the chickens get? Some of them aren't even dead when boiled.

That's pretty rare, most of them are just still in their death throws.

BroomJockey

08-04-2009, 03:10 AM

Some of them aren't even dead when boiled.

MMmmm, delicious cruelty. The 12th secret spice.

Flyndaran

08-04-2009, 06:05 AM

KFC is a horrible, horrible company as it is. Ever see the treatment the chickens get? Some of them aren't even dead when boiled.

Ahhh man. That would leave supermarket chicken and Popeye's. I hate Popeye's. The one here makes it more like chicken flavored grease than anythin appetizing.

DesignFox

08-04-2009, 11:10 PM

MMmmm, delicious cruelty. The 12th secret spice.

I Lol'd. :o

anriana

08-05-2009, 12:55 AM

KFC is a horrible, horrible company as it is. Ever see the treatment the chickens get? Some of them aren't even dead when boiled.

Animal cruelty in the food industry is so pervasive that I find it odd for an omni to call out one specific company on it.

BlaqueKatt

08-05-2009, 02:06 AM

KFC is a horrible, horrible company as it is. Ever see the treatment the chickens get? Some of them aren't even dead when boiled.

1-KFC does not raise chickens-does maccas or taco bell raise cattle, no they're restaurants-they buy meat from suppliers-tyson and pilgrims pride are the main two suppliers.

KFC supplier accused of animal cruelty (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/20/business/20chicken.html?ex=1248062400&en=7711f10385347672&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland)
"An animal rights group involved in a long legal dispute with Kentucky Fried Chicken about the treatment of the 700 million chickens it buys each year"

2-they are not "boiled alive"-they are sent into an electrified water bath to stun them before they are killed-so yes they are alive.

trust me you don't want to know how cattle are slaughtered(my great uncle ran a slaughterhouse).

You want cruelty-visit a "kosher" slaughterhouse-to be kosher the animals have to bleed to death-without being stunned.

Greenday

08-05-2009, 11:36 AM

anriana

08-05-2009, 12:24 PM

Yes, I understand how kosher works. And I know most animal farming for food can be cruel. But the KFC supplier goes beyond excessive. KFC knows what's going on and by continuing to use that supplier, they are supporting the torturing of the animals.

But so are the majority of companies that use meat in some fashion. It's cool that you care about it but I don't understand the consistency. Did you see an ad campaign or something that specifically targeted KFC?

Greenday

08-05-2009, 12:46 PM

Just something my friend pointed out to me a while ago. Haven't touched KFC since (then again, I haven't eaten KFC regardless in a long time). It's just from what I've heard and researched, that KFC is worse than other companies.

Nyoibo

08-05-2009, 12:52 PM

But so are the majority of companies that use meat in some fashion.

I was going to take exception to that comment, but then remembered you're in the US, and I have no clue what the situation is there.

Flyndaran

08-05-2009, 01:19 PM

I was going to take exception to that comment, but then remembered you're in the US, and I have no clue what the situation is there.

We're horrible, but compared to the chinese we are freaking animal worshipers. I can never unwatch those images.

AdminAssistant

08-05-2009, 02:11 PM

Well, I don't eat KFC because it tastes nasty. That's not what fried chicken is supposed to taste like folks. *bleh*

BroomJockey

08-05-2009, 02:55 PM

That's not what fried chicken is supposed to taste like folks. *bleh*

No, but it IS what KFC is supposed to taste like. 10 out of the 11 secret spices are "lard." The last one is salt.

Lace Neil Singer

08-05-2009, 03:01 PM

MMmmm, delicious cruelty. The 12th secret spice.

LMAO... I know I shouldn't, but damn, that was funny. XD

I never eat KFC cuz it's disgusting. Besides, the chippy near where I live does the most amazing Southern fried chicken. :D It takes a little longer to cook but is so worth it.

AdminAssistant

08-05-2009, 03:47 PM

No, but it IS what KFC is supposed to taste like. 10 out of the 11 secret spices are "lard." The last one is salt.

:roll:

I was explaining to a friend from Philadelphia the magic that is Southern cuisine, and that my Mom made amazing fried chicken. He said, "What, like KFC?" After the beating, I explained to him that true Southern Fried Chicken is never, ever, EVER deep fried. It's pan fried, in a cast iron skillet, preferably in shortening. Mom's is unique, because she removes the skin and just coats the meat in flour...no soak in buttermilk or fancy batters. And it is crisp and juicy without being too greasy.

Dammit now I'm hungry! :(

Flyndaran

08-05-2009, 07:58 PM

:roll:

I was explaining to a friend from Philadelphia the magic that is Southern cuisine, and that my Mom made amazing fried chicken. He said, "What, like KFC?" After the beating, I explained to him that true Southern Fried Chicken is never, ever, EVER deep fried. It's pan fried, in a cast iron skillet, preferably in shortening. Mom's is unique, because she removes the skin and just coats the meat in flour...no soak in buttermilk or fancy batters. And it is crisp and juicy without being too greasy.

Dammit now I'm hungry! :(

I hate anything cooked in shortening. It tastes like naval sweat and plastic.
I love KFC, eventhough I also like home made pan fried chicken. How my love muffin also hates the skin is alien to me. It's the best part.

Tanasi

08-08-2009, 09:01 PM

I love it when these "food" cruelity conversations get started. How many of you have ever had a hand in raising anything that you eat??? Toting it home from the store doesn't count. KFC receives it's chicken just like everyone that cooks chicken, they don't kill it, just as McDonald's doesn't kill the cattle they serve. If you don't like how a chicken is killed then I suggest you find a source of live chickens and dispatch them as you see best, providing you have the courage to do so.
From a business perspective it's not in the farmers, processor nor stores best interest to damage their product in any way. Does bad things happen yes but it's the exception not the rule. Also remember that those videos that PETA is so proud of are heavily edited, and Lord knows PETA's hands are blood free.

Flyndaran

08-08-2009, 11:29 PM

BroomJockey

08-09-2009, 01:10 AM

Implying that those of that don't like animal cruely are cowards is VERY offensive.
Yeah, or he could have meant that actually slaughtering an animal is difficult for most people to bear, nowadays, so unless you're out there slaughtering your own animals, you're leaving it to others who will do it as they see fit, and it may not jibe with your sensibilities.

Stop comparing us to PETA. They do not represent us anymore than the chinese bastards that skin and cook cats alive represents your kind.

O_o Never expected a racist comment from you, Flyn.

Flyndaran

08-09-2009, 01:38 AM

...
O_o Never expected a racist comment from you, Flyn.

It's a hatred of a nationalistic "culture", not racism. I hate the disgustingly common practice in China of skinning and boiling alive of mammals. I would stare down anyone that find that an acceptable means of food preparation.

Rereading my post, I admit that it comes off racist. That was definitely not my intent. All populous ethnicities can, and do, run the gamut from saintly to demonic. This is just an example of the latter.

Nyoibo

08-09-2009, 03:25 PM

I love it when these "food" cruelity conversations get started. How many of you have ever had a hand in raising anything that you eat???

Yup, raised sheep for own consumption and I've worked in an abattoir and egg farm.

Lace Neil Singer

08-09-2009, 06:48 PM

When I went to the college I did my Animal Care NVQ in, I went to the sheep farm next door several times to work with the lambs. I also helped care for chickens, even raising chicks in an incubator. Yup, still eat lamb and chicken.

As far as killing, I've drowned birds that my late cat half killed a few times and can honestly say it didn't affect me at all. I'm pretty sure I could kill a chicken. My hatred of KFC has nothing to do with cruelty, either real or imagined and everything to do with it just tasting nasty and being basically pure fat and salt.

Flyndaran

08-10-2009, 10:55 AM

...
As far as killing, I've drowned birds that my late cat half killed a few times and can honestly say it didn't affect me at all. I'm pretty sure I could kill a chicken. My hatred of KFC has nothing to do with cruelty, either real or imagined and everything to do with it just tasting nasty and being basically pure fat and salt.

That's not something to brag about. We should always feel something when killing, no matter how necessary. As a child my family had chickens just for eggs. I still felt a loss when taking thier unborn children. Animal and all other forms of cruelty come from a lack of respect for life.

BroomJockey

08-10-2009, 07:06 PM

I hate the disgustingly common practice in China of skinning and boiling alive of mammals.
Is boiling them alive really that common? It seems like that would be a horribly inefficient manner of cooking a mammal, due to their usual size. Any references for just how often this is?

That's not something to brag about.

Sure it is. Lace could likely survive in an agrarian society. Someone who's having trouble taking eggs from chickens is probably going to have a rough time if anything happened to isolate themselves from society.

Flyndaran

08-10-2009, 07:20 PM

Is boiling them alive really that common? It seems like that would be a horribly inefficient manner of cooking a mammal, due to their usual size. Any references for just how often this is?

Sure it is. Lace could likely survive in an agrarian society. Someone who's having trouble taking eggs from chickens is probably going to have a rough time if anything happened to isolate themselves from society.

Humans suck at living alone. Saying that my death might be a few days sooner than yours isn't a claim to embarassment. It's a claim to stay in touch with other people.

The fact that those people aren't run out of town tarred and feathered right before spending hard time in jail says that it isn't that uncommon. When given half a chance people will treat eachother horribly let alone creatures that can't fight back.

Cat

08-10-2009, 07:25 PM

That's not something to brag about. We should always feel something when killing, no matter how necessary. As a child my family had chickens just for eggs. I still felt a loss when taking thier unborn children. Animal and all other forms of cruelty come from a lack of respect for life.

I kinda want to raise chickens for eggs....( I don't want rooster....I will have my omlete unfertilized :-) ) Only problem is, I don't eat chicken, and I've read that hens really only have a few good laying years in 'em.

I have seen a documentary about the boiling cats alive...I forget if they said it was a common practice or not....still....I burst into tears seeing it.

Nyoibo

08-10-2009, 07:39 PM

As a child my family had chickens just for eggs. I still felt a loss when taking thier unborn children. Animal and all other forms of cruelty come from a lack of respect for life.

Unless you had a rooster and were taking fetilized eggs, you weren't taking their unborn children, you were taking what ammounts to their menstruation.

I kinda want to raise chickens for eggs....( I don't want rooster....I will have my omlete unfertilized :-) ) Only problem is, I don't eat chicken, and I've read that hens really only have a few good laying years in 'em.

It depends on how much they lay but a few free range birds will probably lay for about 3-4 years, caged birds usually lay for about 3 years before their productivity goes down to much for them to be comercially viable, but they still lay just not 1-2 eggs a day.

Flyndaran

08-10-2009, 08:11 PM

Unless you had a rooster and were taking fetilized eggs, you weren't taking their unborn children, you were taking what ammounts to their menstruation.

....

I know. We had a rooster that wasn't very nice... so the females pecked him to death.

AdminAssistant

08-10-2009, 08:21 PM

"The world is little more than a revolving buffet with weather" - George Carlin

One of my neighbors growing up was like a grandmother to me. She had quite a few chickens in a very large enclosure, with a little place for them to lay eggs. I used to love shoving clover and grass through the chicken wire, seeing if they'd eat it. I remember gathering eggs, and one time when...one of the chickens was "retired". I don't remember the circumstances, if it was a laying hen that was no longer laying, if it was a hen that had been injured or sick...I was just a kid. (Some of the best fried chicken I've ever had, btw).

I'm not going to feel guilty about eating animals below me on the food chain. If you're willing to be the one wielding the cleaver, more power to you. I'd rather pay someone else to have it done, but I'm familiar enough with the cycle of life and death that...I'd do it if I had to. As far as other cultures...I'm hesitant to say. Because then, where do we draw the line? I've not heard of boiling cats alive, but I've watched many episodes of No Reservations where sea creatures when into the boiling pots still alive. I mean, it would be like Hindus taking the Western world to task for the terrible way we treat our cattle. To them, it's a sacred creature. To most of us, it's a walking steak with a glass of milk. To us, a cat is a cute fuzzy creature and pet. To a poor Chinese person, it's a source of protein.

BroomJockey

08-10-2009, 08:26 PM

I'm not going to feel guilty about eating animals below me on the food chain. If you're willing to be the one wielding the cleaver, more power to you. I'd rather pay someone else to have it done, but I'm familiar enough with the cycle of life and death that...I'd do it if I had to. As far as other cultures...I'm hesitant to say. Because then, where do we draw the line? I've not heard of boiling cats alive, but I've watched many episodes of No Reservations where sea creatures when into the boiling pots still alive. I mean, it would be like Hindus taking the Western world to task for the terrible way we treat our cattle. To them, it's a sacred creature. To most of us, it's a walking steak with a glass of milk. To us, a cat is a cute fuzzy creature and pet. To a poor Chinese person, it's a source of protein.

There is no part of this I disagree with, and it's said more eloquently, too.

I hate you :p :D

Flyndaran

08-10-2009, 08:26 PM

...
I'm not going to feel guilty about eating animals below me on the food chain. If you're willing to be the one wielding the cleaver, more power to you. I'd rather pay someone else to have it done, but I'm familiar enough with the cycle of life and death that...I'd do it if I had to. As far as other cultures...I'm hesitant to say. Because then, where do we draw the line? I've not heard of boiling cats alive, but I've watched many episodes of No Reservations where sea creatures when into the boiling pots still alive. I mean, it would be like Hindus taking the Western world to task for the terrible way we treat our cattle. To them, it's a sacred creature. To most of us, it's a walking steak with a glass of milk. To us, a cat is a cute fuzzy creature and pet. To a poor Chinese person, it's a source of protein.

I may not be religious but I always loved the quote by god of that which you do unto the least of you, you do unto me. Compassion is never wrong.
Killing to stay alive is always right. Those two are often mutually exclusive, but nevertheless important human truths.

You can't really ask where we draw the line, do you? Unnecessary cruelty is always wrong! Boiling an animal alive is fucked up when it's done to a simple "biological robot" like arthropods, not to mention thinking feeling mammals.

Cat

08-10-2009, 08:30 PM

According to the documentary I saw....it wasn't the poor eating the cats (though I cannot say they don't) The cats were served to the elite in some fancy resturaunt.

I really wish I could remember the doc and when I saw it.....I know my posts have little merit with facts to back 'em up.

Edit: ( I won't say any more on the cats, since I cannot be unbiased.....I can never be unbiased when it come to cat harm)

Lace Neil Singer

08-10-2009, 11:02 PM

I don't see why I should weep buckets over what is basically lunch. If I were stranded on a desert island, it would be merely survival to kill and eat living things.

Flyndaran

08-11-2009, 06:17 AM

I don't see why I should weep buckets over what is basically lunch. If I were stranded on a desert island, it would be merely survival to kill and eat living things.

So if we were stranded on an ice floe, and I needed to eat, I could kill you? I shouldn't weep because you would basically be lunch?
Never hear of a necessary evil? Killing is at best a necessary evil. No one should ever become entirely comfortable with taking lives.

AFPheonix

08-11-2009, 07:50 AM

I know. We had a rooster that wasn't very nice... so the females pecked him to death.

Heh. There is a reason behind the phrase "hen-pecked" ;) We've never had hens kill roosters though, they've eaten all their tail feathers before, but not killed them.

We do have one little shitter somewhere in with the big layers who is breaking eggs though.... >:(

IDrinkaRum

08-11-2009, 12:41 PM

I may not be religious but I always loved the quote by god of that which you do unto the least of you, you do unto me.

God also gave Man dominion over all of the animals in the world. Basically making Man to be above all of the other creatures of earth. God then told Man that he could do whatever he wanted to do with the animals. Therefore, technically, it is my God-given right to eat meat. :p

Lace Neil Singer

08-11-2009, 12:42 PM

So if we were stranded on an ice floe, and I needed to eat, I could kill you? I shouldn't weep because you would basically be lunch?
Never hear of a necessary evil? Killing is at best a necessary evil. No one should ever become entirely comfortable with taking lives.

Firstly, you wouldn't kill me; I would have killed and eaten you long before we got to that stage. Second, you're missing the point completely. I'm not going to argue the toss with you, as you always seem to jump down my throat whatever I say, so I'll just say this; you don't like killing and cry and bawl whenever you take eggs from chickens. Great. More power to you. However, I don't feel a thing when I perform a mercy killing on a bird that my cat mauled halfway to death. I also could quite easily see myself killing chickens if I lived on a farm, or if I were living in a community that required it. Neither is right or wrong, just different viewpoints.

In any case, for all you know, plants could be screaming every time you pick their fruit, or walk on them. Does that mean you'd starve yourself to death if you found that out?

Tanasi

08-12-2009, 08:29 PM

Implying that those of us that don't like animal cruely are cowards is VERY offensive.
Stop comparing us to PETA. They do not represent us anymore than the chinese bastards that skin and cook cats alive represents your kind.

Guess what I don't like animal cruelity either, but until I'm willing to stand there and make sure the processing plants don't make the mistakes of unintentional cruelity I don't think I have much room to complain. If you want to buy your eats from a store, then complain about how they got there and then not be willing to lend a hand then yes I think those folks are cowards and hippocrits.
Whether PETA is your rep or not there are very very few people out there that don't have some blood on their hands. I don't have a problem admitting that I have blood on my hands, I've killed before and I'll kill again. My problem is with those that want to preach while wearing leather shoes, leather belts while driving cars with leather seats. Don't tell me my shit stinks and yours smells like roses.
The definition of cruelity varies place to place. Some find just having pets to be extremely cruel, while others don't have a problem eating the brains of a living monkey. Of the critters I raise to be eaten I dispatch them as quickly and painlessly and possible.

As far as killing, I've drowned birds that my late cat half killed a few times and can honestly say it didn't affect me at all. I'm pretty sure I could kill a chicken. My hatred of KFC has nothing to do with cruelty, either real or imagined and everything to do with it just tasting nasty and being basically pure fat and salt.

I would suggest instead of drowning the birds that you pull their heads off. I know if I was going to die very soon I'd much rather be decapitated than drown.
I don't have a problem with you dislike of KFC I don't see you as a hippocrit.

fireheart17

05-09-2012, 12:45 AM

This is a necrobump, but I thought it was necessary.

A little followup reveals that the court ruled in favour of the girl and KFC has been ordered to pay something like $8 million in damages.

BlaqueKatt

05-09-2012, 01:22 AM

This is a necrobump, but I thought it was necessary.

A little followup reveals that the court ruled in favour of the girl and KFC has been ordered to pay something like $8 million in damages.

which is sad because while it was salmonella, there was no salmonella found at the restaurant, or the suppliers, and salmonella can take from 6 to 72 hours for symptoms to manifest, but people panic and think salmonella=chicken, when the species of salmonella that usually causes the symptoms this girl had(I do not know as the article merely said a "common strain" was isolated, there are 200+ strains of salmonella, many are "common") is usually found on peanuts, or in rotted meat, not under cooked chicken, or in chicken at all.

When I had salmonella it was from mayonnaise, not chicken.

LexiaFira

05-09-2012, 01:53 AM

oh but logic doesn't fly in courts BlaqueKatt!
the last place we went to was KFC and we all got sick so its there fault!
regardless if it was or not, its just this kind of logic that gets by as of late

Mytical

05-09-2012, 07:37 AM

Well .. lets see. I was raised on a farm. So I have done a fair share of killing for food. My ancestry is Native American, so I have a deep respect for life (regardless if this is true or not for most Native Americans, it was how I was raised..to believe that Native Americans have a deep respect for life..so that is how I acted).

However, I feel sorrow even if I kill an insect. I do not wish to harm anything. This does not cause me to go vegan or anything, but it does mean I do not wish to kill my own food. Can I? Absolutely. Will I? Only if absolutely needed.

Lace Neil Singer

05-09-2012, 10:19 AM

I would suggest instead of drowning the birds that you pull their heads off. I know if I was going to die very soon I'd much rather be decapitated than drown.
I don't have a problem with you dislike of KFC I don't see you as a hippocrit.
Ah, but decapitation isn't necessarily a quick death; it has been theorised that a person can live several minutes after decapitation. As for drowning, it only took a few seconds. I've also drowned a budgie; this was back when I worked in the pet centre. Said budgie had scaly face; my manager's bright idea was to let the bird die slowly. My collegue and I, however, didn't want it to suffer so we took it out back and drowned it.

Some people think that's cruel and I'm without heart; however, if I were a budgie suffering from scaly face (http://www.birds-online.de/gesundheit/gesparasiten/grabmilben_en.htm) and knew I was doomed to suffer til my beak fell off and I died, I would choose to be drowned rather than go thru that.

Rapscallion

05-09-2012, 12:26 PM

Theorised, sure, but the best reckoning I've seen is about twenty seconds at most before unconsciousness is complete, often sooner due to shock. The sudden drop in blood pressure is pretty hard on the system and brain death may be a while later, but unconsciousness is pretty fast.

Rapscallion

Lace Neil Singer

05-09-2012, 01:30 PM

telecom_goddess

05-09-2012, 04:12 PM

Unrelated, I'm sure, but I once read about this tribe which executed people by tying their head to a tree, pulling it down and letting the tree decapitate them. Spending your last few seconds of consciousness flying thru the air can't be a bad way to go... XD

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Are you serious? That would be HORRIBLE.

As for KFC I got food poisoning there once myself. I didn't care for them in the first place and that clinched it. I think they are a source of food poisoning and them paying out is a good call.

Andara Bledin

05-09-2012, 04:35 PM

Unless you test your food, you can't say for sure that you got food poisoning from someplace specific, and unless you get tested yourself, you can't even say you got food poisoning for certain. A lot of cases of suspected food poisoning turn out to be things like people passing colds to other diners.

Now, that doesn't mean you should patronize KFC. If you don't like them, you don't like then, and you shouldn't feel the need to justify that fact.

^-.-^

Tanasi

05-09-2012, 09:15 PM

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Are you serious? That would be HORRIBLE.

As for KFC I got food poisoning there once myself. I didn't care for them in the first place and that clinched it. I think they are a source of food poisoning and them paying out is a good call.

One of the stranger methods of execution by hanging was kinda the reverse of what we see on TV. The executee would stand on a platform or ground with the noose around their neck. The rope was run up thru a pulley then over to another pulley with the other end of the rope attached to a very heavy suspended weight. The weight was released and the sudden yanking was supposed to have the same effect as dropping. Personally I don't think either method would be one that I would select.

Nekojin

05-09-2012, 09:38 PM

Personally I don't think either method would be one that I would select.

Bullet to the head would be my choice. If I were to be executed, that is.

Lace Neil Singer

05-09-2012, 09:44 PM

One of the stranger methods of execution by hanging was kinda the reverse of what we see on TV. The executee would stand on a platform or ground with the noose around their neck. The rope was run up thru a pulley then over to another pulley with the other end of the rope attached to a very heavy suspended weight. The weight was released and the sudden yanking was supposed to have the same effect as dropping. Personally I don't think either method would be one that I would select.

I could also cite the Halifax Gibbet, which was the first version of the guillotine and had a curved blade. The rope was cut and the blade fell. An amusing side effect of the blade shape was sometimes to send the head flying into the air, occasionally landing in someone's lap. XD

Pagan

05-09-2012, 10:26 PM

Unrelated, I'm sure, but I once read about this tribe which executed people by tying their head to a tree, pulling it down and letting the tree decapitate them. Spending your last few seconds of consciousness flying thru the air can't be a bad way to go... XD

I could also cite the Halifax Gibbet, which was the first version of the guillotine and had a curved blade. The rope was cut and the blade fell. An amusing side effect of the blade shape was sometimes to send the head flying into the air, occasionally landing in someone's lap. XD

There must be something seriously wrong with me. I chuckled at both of these.

Although, if I did have to be beheaded, of all the methods, I would choose the guillotine. Guy with an axe could have bad aim and then you wind up with the two whacks and subsequent sawing of gristle that it took to assassinate Mary, Queen of Scots.