"Mean Mom" jailed

[IDrinkaRum]

Mom caught on tape dragging her child on a leash out of a store (http://www.parentdish.com/2009/08/04/parenting-can-be-a-drag-for-woman-who-keeps-child-on-a-leash/?icid=main|aimzones|dl3|link5|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.par entdish.com%2F2009%2F08%2F04%2Fparenting-can-be-a-drag-for-woman-who-keeps-child-on-a-leash%2F)

The mother is now being charged with child abuse, is in jail and waiting trial.

There have been a few times when Child Rum has been on her leash and I've had to scoot her along on the floor. Especially when she has thrown one of her supremely fantastic meltdowns and she doesn't want to get up.

The last meltdown she had, she wasn't on the leash, so I had to fight her to pick her up and place her on her feet before we could leave.

The kid probably threw a fit when she told him they were leaving the store, and he refused to move, so she probably said, if you don't move with me, I'll drag you. He tried to call her bluff, but lost.

Now, I can see if she dragged him all over the store/mall/parking lot, purposely dragging him into things that would cause serious injury. Then, I think she should be charged wtih something.

But for being a parent, who needed to get an uncooperative child out of the store? No, I don't think she should be charged.

[Flyndaran]

Dragging is far too dangerous to be okay. If she could drag the kid that fast, then she could simply pick the brat up and walk away.
Ticket worthy but certainly not worthy of wasting a court's time or jail space. That's for non-violent drug offenders, don't you know?

[kibbles]

From the video, I think she is getting what she deserves.

[violetyoshi]

She should've used one of those wrist leashes. Aside from that, well, more parents should be getting what they deserve, for letting their child rage in public. That puts children at risk too.

[DesignFox]

I dunno. The mom isn't hitting the kid, she didn't drag him into anything, she isn't running off, and the kid doesn't seem to be in any sort of pain or distress.

One of the posters over on the news site said they could see their kid ASKING them to drag them like that, because it might be fun. (I could see a kid doing that)

I think this is another example of "mind your own goddamned business."

If she was beating the child, bruising him, cursing at him throwing him around, or dragging him angrily and rubbing his face against the floor, I'd be inclined to do something about it.

But calmly dragging him along on his back? C'mon. He probably threw a fit. Mom said, "You come quietly or I will drag you." He refused to walk. So she dragged him.

It really doesn't look like anything cruel is going on in that video.

[Greenday]

Since I can't view videos at work, where is the leash attached to the kid?

[Boozy]

It's hard to tell where it's attached exactly, but the kid appears to be holding on to it with his hands. At least, that's what I'm making out.

Personally, I'd have picked the kid up and carried them out. Sometimes it's hard to do that if they're kicking at you in full tantrum mode, but this little one appears to have taken to Gandhi-style passive resistance. :D

[kibbles]

Personally, I'd have picked the kid up and carried them out. :D

That would have been a better thing for her to do. But one thing I didn't think of that was mentioned here, is it possible the child asked to be dragged like that because it was fun?

If the mother did it because she couldn't be bothered to pick her child up, then it is absolutely cruel; but, is there more to the story?

[Greenday]

If the kid had wanted to be dragged around, I honestly don't believe she'd end up in jail for it. Just sayin...

[Lace Neil Singer]

She should've used one of those wrist leashes.

Personally, I don't agree with those; I think the wrist leashes are more dangerous than the ones that are attached to the body. If a child suddenly pulls his arm back, he would get a nasty jerk on his arm which could have dire consequences.

Take my little brother for example. His right shoulder was loose in its socket for a while when he was growing up and dislocated at times. A wrist leash would have made that all the more likely to happen.


I think this situation is a perfect example of why people need to mind their own fucking business and keep their big fat noses out unless there's a case for real cruelty, such as if the mother was punching her child or kicking him. Ironically, the child is probably suffering a lot now cuz his mummy has been taken away from him; that kind of emotional hit could even cause him serious issues in later life.

[anriana]

I think this is another example of "mind your own goddamned business."

I think this situation is a perfect example of why people need to mind their own fucking business and keep their big fat noses out unless there's a case for real cruelty, such as if the mother was punching her child or kicking him. Ironically, the child is probably suffering a lot now cuz his mummy has been taken away from him; that kind of emotional hit could even cause him serious issues in later life.

The police and the court system that is holding the woman in jail probably know more about what is "real cruelty" than we do. Who should be minding their business here? Someone in the store saw what they thought was child abuse, they called the police, the police dispatched someone, the officer arrested the woman, and the courty system charged her with a felony and declined to release her. I'd much rather people report felonies than "mind their own business" and have a child Kitty Genovesed by their parent. And you knwo what else causes severe issues in a child's life? Felony child abuse.

The article the blog post links to says "The child had visible marks on the neck from the incident" so I would surmise the child is either being dragged by the neck or had the leash wrapped around their neck somehow. Of course, it is also labeled as three months ago, so who knows.

[Flyndaran]

Personally, I don't agree with those; I think the wrist leashes are more dangerous than the ones that are attached to the body. If a child suddenly pulls his arm back, he would get a nasty jerk on his arm which could have dire consequences.

Take my little brother for example. His right shoulder was loose in its socket for a while when he was growing up and dislocated at times. A wrist leash would have made that all the more likely to happen.


I think this situation is a perfect example of why people need to mind their own fucking business and keep their big fat noses out unless there's a case for real cruelty, such as if the mother was punching her child or kicking him. Ironically, the child is probably suffering a lot now cuz his mummy has been taken away from him; that kind of emotional hit could even cause him serious issues in later life.

You criticise the woman, and then say that people should mind their own bussiness. That seems like mixed messages to me.
I think she should get some kind of public nuisance ticket or something, but not jail time.
Overt violence is not the only type of child abuse.

[IDrinkaRum]

It looks like to me at the very end, before the camera is turned down to the ground, that the kid stands up.

If the kid is throwing a fit and won't go with his mother, then I don't see it being a big deal with the mother dragging him to get to their destination.

The mother is not doing any of the following: zigzagging him all around the displays, isn't violently dragging him hard against walls/customers, isn't getting into his face and screaming and spitting at him, isn't hitting/pinching/punching/poking/etc. him.

He is not in any kind of harm. Nor is he screaming for any sort of help.

As other posters have said: Mind your own business.

[Lace Neil Singer]

You criticise the woman, and then say that people should mind their own bussiness. That seems like mixed messages to me.
I think she should get some kind of public nuisance ticket or something, but not jail time.
Overt violence is not the only type of child abuse.

What are you talking about? I'm not criticising her at all; I quoted violetyoshi's post about wrist leashes and gave my opinion on them, NOT ON ALL LEASHES. Please read my post properly before jumping in and posting something erroneous.



The mother is not doing any of the following: zigzagging him all around the displays, isn't violently dragging him hard against walls/customers, isn't getting into his face and screaming and spitting at him, isn't hitting/pinching/punching/poking/etc. him.

He is not in any kind of harm. Nor is he screaming for any sort of help.

As other posters have said: Mind your own business.

Exactly. It seems as tho we're in a world where people are afraid to disclipline their kids out of fear of nosy busybodies reporting them to the police/child protection services. In the meantime, both organisations are too busy to get to the real, genuine cases of abuse cuz of having to plough thru timewasting crap.

[anriana]

Exactly. It seems as tho we're in a world where people are afraid to disclipline their kids out of fear of nosy busybodies reporting them to the police/child protection services. In the meantime, both organisations are too busy to get to the real, genuine cases of abuse cuz of having to plough thru timewasting crap.

Yeah, felony child abuse is such timewasting crap. Instead they should be out dealing with... SUPER felony child abuse?

[Flyndaran]

What are you talking about? I'm not criticising her at all; I quoted violetyoshi's post about wrist leashes and gave my opinion on them, NOT ON ALL LEASHES. Please read my post properly before jumping in and posting something erroneous.
But the woman in the video was using a leash that wasn't around the body. Perhaps you should view the video before jumping in about my jumping in.


Exactly. It seems as tho we're in a world where people are afraid to disclipline their kids out of fear of nosy busybodies reporting them to the police/child protection services. In the meantime, both organisations are too busy to get to the real, genuine cases of abuse cuz of having to plough thru timewasting crap.

If you really believe that dragging children around by body parts, etc. is not child abuse, then I and many others disagree. We aren't denying parents the right to discipline. That's misinterpreting our view.

[Greenday]

Child abuse is child abuse. Just because she didn't slam the kid into displays and walls doesn't change a thing. Instead of just picking the kid up, she dragged the kid which absolutely constitutes as physical violence.

[Lace Neil Singer]

If it were abuse, the child wouldn't be lying there passively like he's doing. Maybe you're saying the child is stuffed/drugged then?

I can't view the video. My browser is currently blocking stuff like that cuz of some shitty script on a Gaia ad that redirects me to a virus.

Also, I just love it when everyone jumps down my throat, despite the fact that I'm not the only person to hold this view. :rolleyes: If you like abuse labels so much, then stick one on yourself.

[kibbles]

If the mother dragged her child like that just because she didn't have patience enough to be a mother than I definitely agree that it's abuse.

[powerboy]

If it were abuse, the child wouldn't be lying there passively like he's doing.

Yes exactly. It is not child abuse, that I can see. What I want to know is, did the child ask to be dragged? What was going on, before the person started filming it? What happened afterwards? It did look like the kid stood up at the end.



Also, I just love it when everyone jumps down my throat, despite the fact that I'm not the only person to hold this view. :rolleyes: If you like abuse labels so much, then stick one on yourself.

Oh yeah. Have a different opinion and every ones starts to hate. Its BS. Or better yet, everyone start assuming something. Then when proved wrong, they get all pissy about it

[BroomJockey]

Oh yeah. Have a different opinion and every ones starts to hate. Its BS. Or better yet, everyone start assuming something. Then when proved wrong, they get all pissy about it

Not the point of this thread.

[AdminAssistant]

It's not abuse; it's that mother's way of dealing with her bratty child. My mom would've yanked me up, pulled my pants down, smacked my butt, and then carried me out to the car. That's not abuse, that's punishment and parenting. Of course, these days some busybody would call the police on her. And then people wonder why kids misbehave, when parents aren't even allowed to publicly discipline anymore.

[kibbles]

Dragging a child using a leash intended for their safety to the point that marks are left on the child's neck is not punishment and parenting, it's abuse even if the child was being bratty. And whoever did call the police and thought to video tape what was happening, was smart in my opinion.

[DesignFox]

People wonder why I don't want kids....:rolleyes:

[powerboy]

I also want to know, did the mom forcefully dragged him around the store? By watching the video, it does not look like it. Maybe the child was tired and sat down. she didn't realize it and walked off. The child thought it was fun being dragged. Judging from the video, I do not see any child abuse going on.

[IDrinkaRum]

Believe me, when Child Rum had her spectacular, full-out, lay down in the middle of the aisle screaming melt down, I wish I had her leash on her so I could just drag her with me.

Instead, I had to lean down, dodge long legs and long arms and try to pick her up. All the while she's screaming, crying and carrying on like I'm Jason/Freddy/Michael Meyers all rolled into one and everyone is looking at me like I'm a bad parent because I'm either not able to keep my child in line or that I'm abusin her. (Even though I was the one that ended up with bruises).

I have seen parents smack their children in the head, on the butt, on the mouth, on the hand, and no one is screaming child abuse at them.

The only reason she is being jailed/awaiting trial is because this was caught on camera and sent all over the internet. Otherwise, this would be a non-issue.

[Greenday]

The only reason she is being jailed/awaiting trial is because this was caught on camera and sent all over the internet. Otherwise, this would be a non-issue.

Oh, I thought it was because society usually refuses to blow the whistle on that kind of thing. Most people want someone to do something about it, they just don't want to do it themselves. This time someone stood up for what they believed.

[Nyoibo]

Dragging a child using a leash intended for their safety to the point that marks are left on the child's neck is not punishment and parenting, it's abuse even if the child was being bratty.

Not necesarily, do you have any idea how easy it is to leave marks on someone?

And if that was a game to the kid and the parent's getting charged for that, then you better start charging parents for other games 'aeroplane'? well, that has to be abuse, you're flinging a kid around by their limbs and leaving red marks on them, that has to be abuse.

[tabbyblack13]

People wonder why I don't want kids....:rolleyes:

I second that.

I was looking at the video and from what I can tell it looks like it is a harness style. I have seen children do the same thing in the store where they go limp and try to get there parents to pick them up. Its like picking up a cat that is mad at you. The kid was full clothed so no rug burn and the kid might have stood up in the end. This is something my Mom might have dealt with my older brother because of his personality as a child.

[kibbles]

Not necesarily, do you have any idea how easy it is to leave marks on someone?

And if that was a game to the kid and the parent's getting charged for that, then you better start charging parents for other games 'aeroplane'? well, that has to be abuse, you're flinging a kid around by their limbs and leaving red marks on them, that has to be abuse.

I believe I already stated in a previous post that it is not abuse if it was some sort of game to the child. But, if the parent was doing it out of frustration (instead of just picking up the child), then I think it is abuse.

So, no where in any of my posts did I state a parent should be charged if it was a game and left marks, done accidentally as part of a game is a whole lot different than marks left after something is done out of frustration IMO.

[violetyoshi]

I just saw the video of this on Nancy Grace, and when you see a big enough version of the video, you can see the child putting it's hands towards it's neck like it's going "STOP! STOP!" So clearly I see the child as being harmed by this, it's very disturbing.

[DesignFox]

I've watched this video three times. I still disagree that this is abusive. If you watch really closely, the kid stands up once the mom turns the corner. She didn't drag him very far before he finally decided to stand himself up and walk with her.

If she said, "walk with me or I'll drag you" and then did just that, it seems the kid learned his lesson and stood up to walk. As a parent, if you make a threat, you have to make good on it or else the kid just learns it can get its way by being a jackass.

Also, I love what we are teaching our children with this type of shit. Throw a big enough fit and some random person will call the cops! No need to behave or listen to your parents. Just report them!

Unfortunate things occasionally happen. Once in awhile a child really is being abused. But I DOUBT that 90% of the people we see in public disciplining their children are abusers. Unless I see something truly disturbing I am not going to "err on the side of caution" and report it. False accusations cause way more damage to a family unit and simply clog up our already overburdened systems with garbage they don't need to be worried about. Let's go out and get the real abusers- people who beat their kids and break their arms, people who do serious emotional damage, people who sexually abuse their children. THOSE are the people that need to be looked at, evaluated and arrested!

Even if this truly was a case of the mother getting frustrated, she obviously didn't do any lasting damage to the kid. (he stood up all by himself and walked next to her afterward). She probably won't do it again, and chances are, since she made good on her threat and it caused the kid considerable discomfort, he'll probably never require that treatement again! (well, certainly now she may never discipline a kid ever).

(generic you, not aimed at any one person)
Sorry. If it makes you uncomfortable, if you wouldn't do it to your kid, FINE. Don't do it to your kid. Aren't you a wonderful person.

Stop picking on parents who do what they gotta do.

If I ever got out of line in public, I got warned. If I kept pushing it, I got popped one right in the middle of the store/restaurant. My dad once got fed up with some antics of mine and he warned me. I didn't heed the warning so he lunged across the table, grabbed me by the collar and plunked me in my seat. Of course, by today's standards, he'd probably have been arrested for "grabbing me by the collar and choking me." People on the internet would be saying, "well, he should have gotten up and picked her up properly, how dare he treat his kid like a dog!" Give me a fucking break.

You know what I learned after that incident? SIT IN YOUR FUCKING SEAT AND BEHAVE! Never did cause a problem after that one incident. Hell, I don't even remember him doing it- he's the one who told me about it.

This is why we have all the problems we have today. You can't do a goddamn thing without someone overreacting. Even if I someday decide I want kids, I probably won't have any. I won't be able to discipline them or try and bring them up properly because every move I make will be scrutinized by Jane Nosybody, and CPS will be banging on my door.

I refuse to raise a brat.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Exactly. That is probably why there are so many rude, badly behaved, entitled people around, cuz of this very thing. That child who's being allowed to cry and screech in public will grow up to be that bratty teen who hits his parents when he doesn't get his own way and verbally assaults customer service staff.

Finally able to watch video, seeing as Gaia sorted out aforementioned fake antivirus direct thing, and I was able to remove my blocks. I am still not seeing the abuse. The child got up and walked after; also, the leash was obviously on a back harness and not around the child's neck, as some people are thinking.

I remember misbehaving in a store once. My dad clipped me round the ear, then picked me up and put me in the car with my little brother, who was also misbehaving and also got hit. Guess nowadays, people would be filming the incident on their phones and rushing to call the police, cuz "OMG! That father hit two of his kids!" We were playing up, and stuff got knocked off shelves, so deserved it. Another time, my mum dragged my little brother by the wrists accross a shop floor, cuz he was throwing a tantrum and refused to move. My mum could in no way have picked him up; she's not very tall and he was flailing his arms and legs around. Suppose that too is abuse; wait, my little brother has grown up well and is now teaching English to foreign students in Thailnad. Must be some mistake.

As I touched on before, this child is probably suffering cuz of his mum being taken away and locked up. Guess if something really bad does happen to him, like an uncle touching him inappropiately, he won't be telling anyone any time soon, cuz he won't want his mummy locked up. Kids think that way; they think it's their fault that something happens.

[Greenday]

I've watched this video three times. I still disagree that this is abusive. If you watch really closely, the kid stands up once the mom turns the corner. She didn't drag him very far before he finally decided to stand himself up and walk with her.

I am still not seeing the abuse. The child got up and walked after; also, the leash was obviously on a back harness and not around the child's neck, as some people are thinking.

So what it seems to me is that you guys are saying that as long as the damage isn't permanent, it's not abuse. I'm kind confused about that. If I walked up to my little cousin and kicked him, would that then be ok as long as it doesn't have lasting damage?

[Rapscallion]

There's a difference, I suppose, between assault with intent to inflict injury and action to demonstrate that aberrant behaviour is not going to be tolerated.

Dragging a child in the middle of a tantrum across the floor is not, by my reckoning, abuse. Just kicking/punching for no reason is.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

I just don't see the difference because even with dragging a child, you are going to physically hurt the child when there is a much better, more obvious alternative (just picking the kid up).

[Nyoibo]

So what it seems to me is that you guys are saying that as long as the damage isn't permanent, it's not abuse.

Are you saying that any form of physical punishment is abuse?


I'm kind confused about that. If I walked up to my little cousin and kicked him, would that then be ok as long as it doesn't have lasting damage?

No, that would be an unprovoked assault and I'm not even going to bother pointing out the differences in that situation and the one in the video and how what you said makes a bad analogy.

[kibbles]

I just don't think because a child is being bratty, that should be a gateway for a parent to do what they want because "hey I am frustrated". I never said a pop on a clothed behind was abuse, or picking a child up was abuse.

But obviously what this woman did was, or else the police investigation would prove her innocence and she wouldn't be in jail now.

[BroomJockey]

But obviously what this woman did was, or else the police investigation would prove her innocence and she wouldn't be in jail now.

And everyone charged is always guilty. Obviously.

when there is a much better, more obvious alternative (just picking the kid up).

And obviously, the mom's fully capable of picking up a child who doesn't wish to be picked up, and carrying him far distances. No chance the kid would flip out and start screaming and hitting if picked up, or the mom's got a bad back for lifting, or anything like that.

[kibbles]

And everyone charged is always guilty. Obviously.

Never said that anywhere in my post. But I believe what she did was abuse, and now she is suffering the consequences of her actions.

And who knows, maybe more stuff will come out in the trial that will either prove her innocence or further prove her guilt.

[BroomJockey]

Never said that anywhere in my post.
Yes you did.

or else the police investigation would prove her innocence and she wouldn't be in jail now.

That means "She was investigated, and charged, so she's guilty."

And what comes out in the trial is irrelevant. You said the investigation was enough. I hope no one ever accuses you of anything, with enough superficial evidence to support a charge. You'd be forced to plead guilty.

[kibbles]

I hope no one ever accuses you of anything, with enough superficial evidence to support a charge. You'd be forced to plead guilty.



I fully admit it was my fault in the way I worded my post. What I meant was that if there wasn't something there that (in my opinion) the police investigation wouldn't have had enough evidence to go forward with the trial. And no I don't mean that because someone is charged they are automatically guilty; but, in this case I think she is guilty.

Not saying anything about guilt or innocence for the moment; but, there was something there that apparently warranted further investigation.

[Lace Neil Singer]

We're not discussing that at the moment tho, real or imagined. What we have is the act itself and, to my mind, that is not abuse. You must be a wonderful person if you've never suffered a single moment of frustration or acted in the heat of the moment.

Maybe later on there'll be an update; evidence of actual abuse might come out, or the mother might be suing the police for wrongful arrest. Would you still be taking the stand you are if the second comes to pass rather than the first?

[kibbles]

You must be a wonderful person if you've never suffered a single moment of frustration or acted in the heat of the moment.

Never said I didn't have a single moment of frustration or acted in the heat of the moment, I haven't said that at all. But one thing that I can say is that I have never dragged a child across a store by a leash/harness that was designed to protect them.

Also, I have said repeatedly in previous posts that the police should check out to make sure this wasn't just a game that the child like the play. But, unless I see evidence to the contrary, I think she is guilty.

[violetyoshi]

I notice it's the people who were physically disciplined coming to her defense. "It worked for me, and the problem is kids aren't being treated badly like I was" sounds more like being envious of kids not being treated roughly, like you were a child.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I notice it's the people who were physically disciplined coming to her defense. "It worked for me, and the problem is kids aren't being treated badly like I was" sounds more like being envious of kids not being treated roughly, like you were a child.

Actually, no. I'm in no way envious of the spoiled brats I see around; I pity them, cuz one day they will be adults and have to make their way in the real world. Cuz their parents are not giving them the tools they require to survive, their path will be a rocky one.

For the record, my parents stopped physical punishment once I and my brothers were old enough to understand non physical punishments; such as being grounded, not having pocket money, being given extra chores etc. Toddlers and very small children live in the present and don't understand the consequences of their actions unless correction is given straight away.

A two year old would be bewildered at not being allowed to watch Bob the Builder; he wouldn't remember that the punishment was given half a day ago cuz he threw a tantrum in the supermarket. Whereas a ten year old banned from watching a favourite programme will certainly remember what he did wrong, and probably make an effort not to repeat the offence.

[Greenday]

I'd like to point out that I, along with most of my friends, were never physically punished and we all turned out to be the best kids in my high school class. None of us are troublemakers. We generally respect authority as they deserve it. So it's completely possible to raise kids without physically punishing them.

[BroomJockey]

So it's completely possible to raise kids without physically punishing them.

Kids are all different. Some don't respond to anything else. I'm not advocating whoopin' a kid who doesn't listen, but I'm also not going to cry abuse at a quick spank or a mom dragging her kid a few feet unless I get a *lot* more detail.

[DesignFox]

Different types of punishment work for different children. I don't judge people who don't hit their kids, just as I don't judge people who do.

I'm not advocating abuse. I'm saying that you need to do what is right for your kids without fear of repercussion from nosy busy-bodies. And the hugest problem with kids is that they can get away with murder because people who don't know shit about the situation go and instantly call the cops or scream "abuse." Kids quickly learn that they can just throw a fit and get what they want because there won't be any consequences for their actions.

I'm sick of it. This is not the first, nor I'm sure the last story I'll hear of a kid getting into trouble, getting punished, etc. and the parents or authority or victim getting blamed or arrested over it.

[Greenday]

I guess I've been to instilled with how the justice system should work. She was found guilty by a judge so most likely she was guilty.

[BroomJockey]

She was found guilty by a judge so most likely she was guilty.

Found a more recent article, and didn't share? Shame on you.

The 37-year-old woman has yet to go to trial for the charge, but she is getting pummeled in the court of public opinion.

[Cat]

I was never physically punished, my 'rents more or less were spineless (mainly because they were unable to deal with my bro's....."issues," but that isn't relevant here)

I've seen the video a few times, the mother might have been stupid for dragging the kid, but I don't see abuse either.

[Greenday]

Found a more recent article, and didn't share? Shame on you.

I was under the impression to go to prison you have to be found guilty of a crime.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Actually no; ever hear of remand?

Dammit; where the hell is Crazylegs when we need him?

[Tanasi]

I was under the impression to go to prison you have to be found guilty of a crime.

Don't you know that jails and prisons are full of innocent folks???

[BroomJockey]

I was under the impression to go to prison you have to be found guilty of a crime.

Prison, yes, jail, no. You go to jail when you're in the "drunk tank," for pete's sake. If it's a child abuse case, they'd probably not grant bail. Thus you sit in jail until your trial is over.

[Flyndaran]

...
A two year old would be bewildered at not being allowed to watch Bob the Builder; he wouldn't remember that the punishment was given half a day ago cuz he threw a tantrum in the supermarket. Whereas a ten year old banned from watching a favourite programme will certainly remember what he did wrong, and probably make an effort not to repeat the offence.

Normal 2 year olds aren't brain damaged. Maybe my brothers and I were unusual, but we had functional memories from 6 months on.

[BroomJockey]

Maybe my brothers and I were unusual, but we had functional memories from 6 months on.

That's incredibly unusual. Doctors say long term memory doesn't really start to form before 3 years of age.

[Flyndaran]

That's incredibly unusual. Doctors say long term memory doesn't really start to form before 3 years of age.

There's long term, and then there's looong term. I don't remember deatails from when I was two now. But at two I certainly could predict likely outcomes from past experiences.
At around two months I figured out that crying got parents to come to me. I would cry, wait a moment to hear if someone was coming. If not, then I would cry again. My mother refused to believe I could do that until an uncle proved it to her. I also made jokes when I only knew a couple of words.

[DGoddess]

Oh, I thought it was because society usually refuses to blow the whistle on that kind of thing. Most people want someone to do something about it, they just don't want to do it themselves. This time someone stood up for what they believed.

IMO if the woman who videotaped it was really concerned, she would have not have taped it but instead been trying to pick the child up and call the mother out on her behavior.

It sounds to me as if the woman w/the phone cam just wanted her 15 minutes worth of fame.

As for the Mom, I think felony abuse is way too extreme. I heard today more details on this on HLN and she's saying she's suffering from lupus and pneumonia. Experts had come on and said that if she were really as sick as she says she is, not only would she not have had the physical strength to pick up her child, dragging him along would have been extremely difficult to do.

But dragging a child along who refuses to cooperate and is acting in bratty fashion (as the reports are claiming - the child was acting up in the vehicle after removing his seatbelt while Mom was still driving apparently) . . . years ago she might have been able to get away with it more. Nowadays if you even attempt to correct a child, there's that risk of being accused of abuse.

A better approach IMO would have been if she had simply taken the child straight home and dealt with him there.

[Nyoibo]

I really think society's getting pathetic, why don't we just wrap all the kids in cotton wool and stick them in a warehouse until they're adults, they can't play on playgrounds because they might get hurt, can't have bark chips, they might get a splinter, can't discipline a child, they'll have issues, poor wittle bubsy might get a owie, being dragged a few feet like that isn't abuse, at best it's fun for the kid, at worst it's a parent who maybe needs to rethink some things a little, being thrown across a room, slammed against walls, having an adult sit on a kids chest and punch it in the head, that's abuse.

[kibbles]

I don't think it's pathetic to not agree with a child being dragged across a store out of sheer frustration. Now, I am not advocating for the mother to be thrown in jail for live or even receive jail time at all. If she is proven guilty and this is an isolated incident I think she should serve some type of community service/anger management type of deal.

JMO of course.

[Flyndaran]

I don't think it's pathetic to not agree with a child being dragged across a store out of sheer frustration. Now, I am not advocating for the mother to be thrown in jail for live or even receive jail time at all. If she is proven guilty and this is an isolated incident I think she should serve some type of community service/anger management type of deal.

JMO of course.

My opinion as well. This comes from someone that suffered spankings as a child, a couple with a switch. Funny, how I feared my mom's hand more than my dad's switch. It was the fact that I could literaly see how much it hurt him to "discipline" me, while my mom struck from anger.

Violence begets violence too often to condone it for children.
I don't know how many parents I've seen striking children while angry.
Spanking might work if the parent wasn't angry or emotional at all. But who could strike a child without anger?

[DesignFox]

I dunno. My SO and I were both spanked as children. Neither of us are violent people. I don't ever remember my father striking me out of anger. My SO only remembers one time his father struck him out of anger- he was a teenager at the time, not a small child... and he told his father if he did it again, he'd give back as good as he got. His father never struck him again, and my SO didn't step out of line again.

Different things work for different kids. Parents are also human and make mistakes. Unless a parent is repeating their mistakes, or just being a fucking douchenozzle, they don't deserve to be put in jail or scruitinized for every little action.

This is exactly why kids are shit bags, today. This is exactly why everyone and their brother is an entitlement whore. This is why everyone has "special snowflake" syndrome.

People need to take responsibility for their OWN actions. Children learn to accept responsibility when they are shown that their actions have consequences- and oh boy! They might be negative! Imagine that!

[violetyoshi]

My opinion as well. This comes from someone that suffered spankings as a child, a couple with a switch. Funny, how I feared my mom's hand more than my dad's switch. It was the fact that I could literaly see how much it hurt him to "discipline" me, while my mom struck from anger.

Violence begets violence to often to condone it for children.
I don't know how many parents I've seen striking children while angry.
Spanking might work if the parent wasn't angry or emotional at all. But who could strike a child without anger?

I was at Disneyworld one time, when I was younger and saw this father spanking his son, who's face was beet red and the child was not just crying but screaming in total fear and terror.

This is why I'm so adamant against spanking, you see something like that, a parent who is supposed to be protecting their child harming it, well most people would see that as wrong.

I find it fascinating that people who have been spanked are so adamant about convincing others that the way they were raised, was a good way to be raised. I'm thinking maybe they're either trying to convince themselves that it was reasonable to be hit every so often, or that they're jealous that this generation of kids are taught not by the rod but by caring and understanding.

[Nyoibo]

I'm thinking maybe they're either trying to convince themselves that it was reasonable to be hit every so often, or that they're jealous that this generation of kids are taught not by the rod but by caring and understanding.

Or maybe we're sick and tired of seeing this generation that's being "taught" by caring and understanding turn out to be entitled namby pamby little shits who need a good swift kick up the arse to get their heads out of them.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Agreed. My parents only used physical correction as a last resort, or as a correction for doing something vile and dangerous. Example; playing with matches, running out into the road, hitting the dog, pushing a sibling down the stairs. Try and reason with a toddler about why he shouldn't play with matches or pinch the dog and I doubt you'll get very far.

As for jealous, don't make me laugh. Seriously, that's reminiscent of some teenage slag saying that other girls are jealous of her ability to get boys, when in fact they feel sorry for her lack of respect for her and her body. I had very good parents, with whom I get on extremely well nowadays, and I can honestly say that whenever I drove my parents to punish me, either physically or mentally, I deserved it. I may not have thought this at the time, but I know now.

Children are all different; what works for one won't necessarily work for another. Naughty corner and being sent to room would not have worked for me; I liked to be on my own and often just retreated into my own imaginary world. Whereas for some kids, who are extroverted, being put in the naughty corner is a very realistic punishment.

[Flyndaran]

Or maybe we're sick and tired of seeing this generation that's being "taught" by caring and understanding turn out to be entitled namby pamby little shits who need a good swift kick up the arse to get their heads out of them.

There's a huge difference between teaching through intelligent understanding and complete disregard for rules that is the real problem of today's youth.

Though, since every single generation of adults throuout history has condemed "modern" youth's behavior in need of swift discipline, I do take all this criticism with a grain of salt. :)

[violetyoshi]

Or maybe we're sick and tired of seeing this generation that's being "taught" by caring and understanding turn out to be entitled namby pamby little shits who need a good swift kick up the arse to get their heads out of them.

This is why they call it the cycle of violence. You weren't taught any skills on how to handle situations as a child, other than to treat others violently when they get out of line.

[BroomJockey]

There's a huge difference between teaching through intelligent understanding and complete disregard for rules that is the real problem of today's youth.

Because they've been taught breaking rules has no consequences. Schools can't do anything, or parents raise hell. Parents can't do anything in public, or strangers raise hell. Delayed punishment is useless punishment.

[DesignFox]

Because they've been taught breaking rules has no consequences. Schools can't do anything, or parents raise hell. Parents can't do anything in public, or strangers raise hell. Delayed punishment is useless punishment.

Yup. Can't punish a horse or a dog minutes or hours after the fact. Punishment needs to happen within seconds or the animal doesn't have any clue *why* the punishment happened.

Small children are exactly like little animals. They require a lot of patience, a lot of repetition, a lot of praise when appropriate, and a swift and correct punishment when they are out of line.

Just like animals, different forms of reinforcement work with different types of children. It is up to the parent to decide. Unless the kid is in serious distress (suffocating, bones being broken, spending an unusual amount of time in emergency rooms...) it is nobody's business but the parents how that child's discipline is being handled.

Kids who don't need to be spanked, but still are respectful and wonderful? Fantastic. I think we all agree we'd *rather* see that. However, many of us needed a good crack across the cheek or bottom now and then. It's just how we were. I don't hate my parents for it in the slightest. I'm glad! I *maybe* remember one or two times that I was actually slapped. If it was more than that, I really don't remember. I just know I was always a good kid, other people's parents liked having me around, and I seem to have turned out ok as an adult.

At least, I haven't landed myself in jail. I have a healthy respect for authority (without being a mindless sheep). I have respect for my elders. I have a good work ethic. Did well in school. AND I take responsibility for my own actions.

I say, let parents do their jobs. I know far too many young people who need a good healthy dose of taking what's coming to them. You don't learn if someone is always sheltering you from the consequences (good and bad) of your actions.

[Flyndaran]

Because they've been taught breaking rules has no consequences. Schools can't do anything, or parents raise hell. Parents can't do anything in public, or strangers raise hell. Delayed punishment is useless punishment.

I know. I've read the stuidies about consequences needing to be within about an hour to truly be understood on an emotional level.
No one is arguing no punishment. That's a strawman argument.
We simply believe that violence is not necessary or useful.

[Nyoibo]

This is why they call it the cycle of violence. You weren't taught any skills on how to handle situations as a child, other than to treat others violently when they get out of line.

Bwahahahahaha.........bahahaha... Oh, wait, you're serious? I have friends who are youth workers, councellors, shrinks, I've looked after kids for years, we're all really good at it to, and know what we all have in common? Yup, we were all spanked as kids *gasp* "No, how is this possible?" you say? Because what I just quoted you on is the most inane load of bull**** I've ever read.

[Rapscallion]

I know. I've read the stuidies about consequences needing to be within about an hour to truly be understood on an emotional level.
No one is arguing no punishment. That's a strawman argument.
We simply believe that violence is not necessary or useful.

Any anti-spanking crusader ever come up with a working alternative?

Rapscallion

[Pedersen]

Any anti-spanking crusader ever come up with a working alternative?

Rapscallion, I am positively appalled at your behavior. You actually asked for results? Don't you know that results don't matter when we're protecting children?

Now, go, sit in a corner, and think about what you've done, and how you've shamed all of us.

The nerve, asking for actual results. I've never seen such behavior here, and hope never to do so again. And you'll note that I am not advocating any spanking, since we all know how reprehensible that behavior is.

[BroomJockey]

No one is arguing no punishment. That's a strawman argument.
We simply believe that violence is not necessary or useful.

It's not a strawman argument. The fact is, there's limited available options for discipline in public spaces. If you remove physical punishment (nice appeal to emotion, constantly calling it violence, btw) you severely limit the options more than usual. Further, yelling and screaming is just as abusive as excessive physical force. If a child is in no mood to listen to a lecture, then the only options left are isolation, or ignoring. Ignoring a tantruming child in public is a sure way to annoy every person in screaming radius. Isolation, if you're there alone, isn't really much of an option most of the time either. If you're shopping, or at an appointment, or something else you simply cannot pick up your kid and leave. That means you have *no* immediate punishment options.

QED by advocating zero physical punishment, you advocate situationally no punishments.

[Flyndaran]

...
QED by advocating zero physical punishment, you advocate situationally no punishments.

No I am not. It is violence if you did it to an adult. It doesn't magically become non-violent when done to your child.
You are inducing shock and pain in order to force compliance. That has other names which I won't mention, but it is violent by definition.
Maybe some kids aren't capable of learning through logic, but need corporal punishment to learn important lessons. You may want to repremand children with violence, but don't cover me in lies about it.

[violetyoshi]

Bwahahahahaha.........bahahaha... Oh, wait, you're serious? I have friends who are youth workers, councellors, shrinks, I've looked after kids for years, we're all really good at it to, and know what we all have in common? Yup, we were all spanked as kids *gasp* "No, how is this possible?" you say? Because what I just quoted you on is the most inane load of bull**** I've ever read.

I'm sorry could you try saying that coherently? I couldn't understand your gigglegasm babble of a response.

Any anti-spanking crusader ever come up with a working alternative?

Rapscallion

Time out, positive reinforcement, teach kids why what they did wrong was wrong, pause and take some time to cool off and then regard the child again..

http://parenting.ivillage.com/tp/tpbehavior/0,,njb0-2,00.html

Of course, all those options, require consistency and effort over time. Why bother with that, when you could be lazy and just spank your kid?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Time out would have had zero effect on me, and I already knew that pushing my brother down the stairs was wrong, but I did it anyway. As for waiting and pausing; yeah, that would have been really helpful cuz I probably would have been out the house by that time.

Once again, there is NO SUCH THING as a blanket punishment for all children. If your "theory" is correct, last night when a chav started having a go at me for no reason, I should have started a fight with him and started hitting everyone around him. Nope; I just told him to eff off or I'd tell the landlord and he'd be out on his arse. But, according to you, since my parents smacked me as a child, I should be applying violence to everything? LMAO.

[Rapscallion]

Time out, positive reinforcement, teach kids why what they did wrong was wrong, pause and take some time to cool off and then regard the child again..

http://parenting.ivillage.com/tp/tpbehavior/0,,njb0-2,00.html

Of course, all those options, require consistency and effort over time. Why bother with that, when you could be lazy and just spank your kid?

Chap I know - his ex-girlfriend is a trained nanny. I saw the results of 'the naughty step' she used.

Child in question was on there every so often. He ran over, kicked his sister hard, and then ran and sat on the naughty step before anyone had a chance to react.

Different strokes for different folks. Not every child is going to react well to every method of training.

Rapscallion

[Cat]

My 'rents did that time out crap. I didn't mind it it, I had my books. It did not work on my brother.

Neither of us was spanked, yet he hit me, my friend, and my mother. (This is an OLDER brother.....he was well his teens when he did this)

He required harsher punishment that neither parent had the balls to dish out.

[Nyoibo]

I'm sorry could you try saying that coherently? I couldn't understand your gigglegasm babble of a response.

Your statement was inane and ignorant, coherent enough?


1. Be firm and be kind.
A child is more likely to hear what you're saying if you use a neutral tone.


The hell they are, using a neutral tone just demonstrates to the child that the situation is not important.

5. Give explanations, not threats.
By giving your child a brief explanation of why she needs to do as she's told, you give her a reason to behave.


A two year old will barely understand "Fire bad, tree pretty" when playing with matches.

7. Give incentives.
Inspire your child to cooperate with phrases like, "It's time to go. Why don't you go down the slide one more time and then let's hustle. I want to get home in time to make cookies."


Excellent, teach the child to expect rewards for doing anything and only a "neutral" talk some time in the future. I bet children are quaking in their boots.

8. Be flexible.
If your little one asks, "Can I just finish watching this show before we go?" be reasonable. If you have the time to spare, make room for your child's requests. This is a great way for kids to learn about the art of negotiation


Ah yes, negotiate the rules, "please officer..."

9. Drop out of power struggles.
Nothing is as frustrating or less productive as having a showdown with your little one. Invite your child to cooperate by saying something like, "I've got a problem. I want you to wear a clean shirt and you insist on wearing the same old one every day. How can we solve this problem?" Your child is more likely to cooperate if he comes up with the solution


Ah yes, the "Mummy will cave if I argue long enough" reinforcement.

[AdminAssistant]

Time out would have had zero effect on me

Me either. I liked going to my room, it was quiet and that's where my books were. And, for the record, the only time I was well and truly spanked, as in, with a belt, was when I'd done something seriously wrong, like lying. Those are the only ones I remember, and they weren't done in anger, either. They were the, "Wait until your father gets home" type deals. I know I was popped on the behind some as a toddler, but I don't remember those. But I was a brat out in public. I hated going shopping, so I'd either tug at Mom (hoping to physically pull her towards the door) or go hide in racks of clothing.

Big Sis got into a lot more trouble than I did, but I was also witness to all her punishments. I didn't want to screw up in some of the ways she did, since I knew what the consequences would be.

Things like positive reinforcement, time out, all that's great. But when you are stuck with a situation like a toddler throwing a spectacular, screaming, tantrum...There just ain't a whole lot you can do. A child that is throwing themselves on the ground because you won't buy them Froot Loops is not a being you can reason with.

[kibbles]

What I don't think is fair is that as soon as someone says that are against spanking, they are automatically thought of as people who coddle children and will let theirs run wild. While there are people who don't discipline their children at all, it is fair to remember that not every person against spanking will let their children run rampant. JMO.

[BroomJockey]

No I am not. It is violence if you did it to an adult. It doesn't magically become non-violent when done to your child.

For the record, I was never spanked, or physically disciplined. Hell, I was barely ever disciplined at all. I was damned near a model child growing up. I was sent to my room maybe twice. And I don't have kids, so I've no opportunity to express my own experiences on discipline, but from everything I've heard, a proper spank wouldn't even qualify as violence on an adult. It doesn't magically become violent when done to a child. A proper spank is done with an open hand, and no follow-through so that it's simply quick, abrupt contact that barely even stings, let alone causes pain.

And you magically ignored the rest of my post, where I said that if a child is in a tantrum where you can't reason with them, and their in a situation where they can't leave, you've now neatly removed any possibility of actually punishing a misbehaving child. And a sporadic reinforcement schedule creates absolutely the worst and most difficult to correct behaviour patterns. So you ARE advocating lack of punishment for children in certain situations. Deny it if you want, but try and actually explain why, or what a parent could do, rather than just saying "don't tell me what I'm saying." Because if you can't come up with another option, that IS what you're saying.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I can't see the abuse, It's just not there.

It's as if everything as much as mildly unpleasant has become 'violence'. Negative reinforcement works sometimes, positive reinforcement works sometimes. Neither works all the time, so sooner or later you're going to need do something which is, frankly, unkind.

Mean? Yes. Abuse? no. Parents sometimes do mean things to their children because it's necessary. Not all children can or will respond to reasoning, to say nothing of the fact that not all people are capable of reasoning with children in the first place.

It's not nice, but that doesn't make it abuse. Abuse is something truly over-the-top. Something that does lasting damage, is unprovoked or unnecessarily painful.

Pulling a kid for a few feet by a harness isn't any of those things. So let's please get past that punishments are unpleasant and get to the meat of the matter, was this excessive?

Reason why it probably isn't:
1: child doesn't seem to be in pain
2: harness, not leash/collar
3: child got to their feet shortly thereafter

Now, that isn't enough, I'll be the first to admit it, because we're supposed to be approaching situations from a standpoint of innocent until proven guilty. Seeing as we have no proof, we can't really get past the 'what if' scenario. So if the kid was throwing a tantrum, and this was what this mother resorted to, fine, looks like it worked anyway. If, however, the mother is dragging the kid about because he sneezes, that's excessive, but still not abuse IMO. Bad parenting maybe, but not abuse.

[IDrinkaRum]

Sending Child Rum to her room when she's naughty doesn't help out. When she's naughty and mad that she's being punished, she becomes ... violent ... towards inanimate objects. She has pulled all the sheets off her bed (including the mattress cover) and then grabbed her full-sized mattress and pull it off the boxspring and throw it on the other side of the room, and then tackle her boxspring to the point of flipping it onto her side and using the bottom of it as a ladder. I tell her she's an X-Man and her mutant power is extreme strength. She thinks it's all fun and games.

As for picking her up whilst in the middle of a tantrum? Yeah, did that once. Once. I don't want to experience that again. The elbows. The knees. The hands. The ear-drum piercing screams as I get close to her to pick her up. It's not fun. And I don't bruise easily. And I was bruised after that. If it weren't for my glasses, I might have ended up with a black eye due to a flying elbow.

[Flyndaran]

...
And you magically ignored the rest of my post, where I said that if a child is in a tantrum where you can't reason with them, and their in a situation where they can't leave, you've now neatly removed any possibility of actually punishing a misbehaving child. And a sporadic reinforcement schedule creates absolutely the worst and most difficult to correct behaviour patterns. So you ARE advocating lack of punishment for children in certain situations. Deny it if you want, but try and actually explain why, or what a parent could do, rather than just saying "don't tell me what I'm saying." Because if you can't come up with another option, that IS what you're saying.

I had a temper as a young child. When my parents spanked me, not only did I not stop, but I also enacted revenge on household items later.
Hitting kids is violent abuse, end of discussion. Trying to say that hitting kids is ok if not painful would have no effect on tempermental children anyway.
Either you are forcing compliance through intimidation and pain, or you aren't. Make up your mind please.
Also, defending physical violence perpetrated on preteens by defending it against toddlers is changing the goalposts.

[BroomJockey]

Either you are forcing compliance through intimidation and pain, or you aren't. Make up your mind please.
Also, defending physical violence perpetrated on preteens by defending it against toddlers is changing the goalposts.

No one's defending violence perpetrated on preteens. Are you sure you're in the right thread? This is about punishment on toddlers-youth about 6. Unless I'm really horrible at judging ages, there's no way the kid's even that old. Keep to the actual topic, k?

And as for the first, you're the one continually equating spanking to violence. Just because your limited experience and imagination cannot encompass the idea of spanking which isn't intended to welt doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My position's clear from the start, you're the one unable to grasp it.

[Flyndaran]

No one's defending violence perpetrated on preteens. Are you sure you're in the right thread? This is about punishment on toddlers-youth about 6. Unless I'm really horrible at judging ages, there's no way the kid's even that old. Keep to the actual topic, k?

And as for the first, you're the one continually equating spanking to violence. Just because your limited experience and imagination cannot encompass the idea of spanking which isn't intended to welt doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My position's clear from the start, you're the one unable to grasp it.

At six I could name the solar system's planets in order of largest to smallest and from distance average to the sun. Even at that age, I didn't think Pluto was a real planet. That is not toddler by any means. Again, maybe my family is odd, so what I call logical thinking small child, you call toddler.
What's the point of a non-painful spanking? I can't imagine how it would or could stop an irrational misbehaving child.
Please, on this board I have proven that logic can persuade me to change my opinion.

[Nyoibo]

At six I could name the solar system's planets in order of largest to smallest and from distance average to the sun.

What the hell does that have to do with anything, I know a parrot that can recite Shakespeare.

[AdminAssistant]

At six I could name the solar system's planets in order of largest to smallest and from distance average to the sun. Even at that age, I didn't think Pluto was a real planet. That is not toddler by any means

Well, I could read at four and was generally more intellectually advanced than my peers in elementary school, but that didn't stop me from being a bratty kid sometimes, especially since I didn't have good social skills (the main reason my parents didn't push for me to be moved up grades).

[PepperElf]

they could see their kid ASKING them to drag them like that, because it might be fun.
That's a good point. some kids are weird.

background: i was sent to work in security on my last ship and had a set of handcuffs to carry but no key and i couldn't find a key. so i gave up and ordered my own set of cuffs jsut for the key.

i still have the cuffs and showed them to my little nephew. he insisted i cuff him.
so yes i put handcuffs on him - but only for a minute or two and they were loose enough that he could have pulled them off.

he thought it was the coolest thing ever.



but as for the video.... dragging a kid in public in my opinion is not safe. you don't know what's on the floor... or if there's any thing sharp lying around. sometimes someone drops a pin and you're so busy walking out you don't notice it.


do i think that woman is specifically a child abuser? i don't know. i'm inclined to think not.
i think she just let herself get caught up in her emotions and anger and made a wrong choice.


the whole incident just reminds me of the military and the "commercials" (PSAs) they run on the military TV channels...

like the "don't shake your baby" commercial, or the one that says if you're angry, "it's ok to let your baby cry"

though in all of those situations, the baby is driving the parent crazy at home and not in public.

in public it's a lot harder on a parent these days because... no matter what you do, if your child is having a meltdown there's going to be *someone* looking at you like you're a messed up parent.

[Flyndaran]

What the hell does that have to do with anything, I know a parrot that can recite Shakespeare.

I learned them myself rather than through simple rote parroting. I could also tell you a few facts about each planet. I also deduced that my teacher had hung Jupiter upside down. She didn't appreciate getting corrected by a six year old, but nevertheless fixed the placard.
I also taught myself some reading when I was three.
I just don't think most pre-teen kids are capable of "understanding only the rod". If they have tempers like I did, then hitting only makes them angrier and choose retaliations.

[Nyoibo]

I also deduced that my teacher had hung Jupiter upside down. She didn't appreciate getting corrected by a six year old, but nevertheless fixed the placard.

Technically there is no wrong way up as in a zero gravity environment there is no up. :p

[DrFaroohk]

I don't think there's anything wrong with dragging a child. Dragging a child across a bed of sandpaper is wrong, but a regular old floor? The way I see it - the child forfeits the right to walk or be carried in a civil manner after they throw a tantrum like that. Next time they come to the store she can try again. Maybe next time she'll remember "Oh wait, I remember when I started acting like a little cuntrag before, mama dragged me out of the store and it was uncomfortable. Glad I remembered it, I'm not gonna do it again. I love you mommy!"

[Greenday]

Leave out the "love you mommy" part and that may be true, sometimes. I don't know too many kids who would appreciate being dragged around on a leash enough that they'd say they love their parents because of it.

[DrFaroohk]

Reading more of these posts, I'm seeing a lot of anti-spanking. That's cool. I don't spank mine, even though I sometimes feel its necessary.

My biggest question to the non-spankers is exactly how do you handle your children? How do you make them listen to you and do what you tell them?

The biggest problem I run into with my 5 year old is that he has realized he can "raise the stakes" farther than I will. In my day that never would have happened. I might raise the stakes a bit, say if my parents wouldnt let me watch this new TV show. I might get upset, and they'd say "Fine, you're gonna act like this, no TV tonight at all." So I might get a little more upset, and they'd say "Fine, you're gonna act like this, it's bedtime. Go to bed. NOW."

At this point, I could either A) continue to be a douchetard, or B) obey and go to bed. I knew that if I chose option A, they would be quick to descend upon me with a firm hand and sharp words. I didn't like getting spanked, and I quickly learned that they could trump any tantrum I might throw.

With mine, he knows that if he chooses option A), it won't lead to anything significant. He can keep being a douchetard, because he knows nothing serious will happen. Oh sure, he might not get to have a snack before bed. OOOOOH BF DEAL. He might also not get to watch a movie before bed. OH NOES! WHAT A HORRIBLE ORDEAL FOR A CHILD!

Even timeouts don't work. I got sick of timeout being playtime for him, so I tried a new rule: Timeout means you sit on your bed and do nothing for 5 whole minutes.

Even that turned into a joke. What the hell? He knows I can't do anything of real consequence to him. Seriously what am I going to do when he doesn't listen to that? NOTHING. Because there's nothing I can do to him. Except for removing his privileges. I can take away his movie and his toys and his snack, but in the end I"m just punishing myself because now, with no toys or anything, he's gone into super-meltdown mode, and now the baby is awake and I'm annoyed and mama is annoyed and we can't do anything about it.

Does anyone else see where I'm going from here? It's hard sometimes. If you get a really good kid, you're lucky. You get one that has to turn every stupud little thing into a monumental argument, good luck to you!

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I actually burst out laughing when I watched the tape.

I"m a terrible person.

Those leashes come with comfy little harnesses. Pulling on one, even pulling hard, will most likely not injure the kid. They hook on snugger than a backpack and don't pull on any one place, at least mine is like that.

That looked a lot more safe than pulling on his little arm, which could dislocate his shoulder. I've seen parents snatch kids up by their arms, which can really injure them.

The lady wasn't jerking on the leash, she was pulling him in a steady, safe speed over a smooth surface. He was not being injured. He was, however, learning that throwing himself down on the floor and playing Ghandi in order to keep Mommy from walking anywhere doesn't work so well as he thought it might.

Would I do that? No, probably not. But I wouldn't automatically assume she's a child abuser if I saw someone else doing it. Kids can act like little shits in public. The same people that called the cops would be all pissed and indignant if her kid was running around like an undisciplined animal.

People (mostly people who either don't have kids, or have feral kids they never discipline) think every act of discipline is a child abuse, and then bitch about how kids are so terrible to be around.

DrFaroohk, I don't know what to tell you. I'm luc ky enough to have a good kid, although she does have her moments. believe you me. She has been spanked on very, very rare occasions. Spanking over here consists of a light swat on the butt, once. I don't even have to swat her hard enough to sting, she is so offended at the indignity of it that just popping her lightly is enough. It gets her attention, and I've only done it in instances where immediate and extreme discipline was needed. I don't even have to do it very often, the warning of "Do I need to pop your bottom?" is 99% of the time enough to straighten her out.

My sister's boy, however, is much harder to discipline. She doesn't swat him, ever. I don't know if he's tougher to discipline because he's a boy, or because he's just more onery, or because he knows he's never gonna get swatted. No way to know.

I think sometimes if time out and taking privledges away is not working, you maybe ought to try something else. The danger with physical punishment, however, is that you don't want to be out of control with anger when you do it, because you HAVE to be in absolute control you don't do something you don't mean to do. I'm fortunate enough to be an older parent, so my fuse is a lot longer and burns a lot slower. In my younger days, I might have had to enforce a "no spanking" rule on myself, I was a hothead.

But yeah, you do have to be able to live with the consequences of your discipline. Sometimes it sucks for you, too, but that's just the way it is. Consider it taking one for the team. If the kid realizes you won't follow through with a punishment because you'll suffer, too, you're done. So never make a threat you won't or can't follow through on. (I once had to call friends and tell them I couldn't come out to swim in the pool and do a campfire jam with them because I told my girl that if she refused to take a nap, we couldn't come over. Had to follow through. Sucked. But you know what? Next time, she took the damn nap. .)