Draft

[Aldous]

The powers that be here in the U.S. have been talking about it, so what do you think. Personally I'm scared as hell, because I know that the draft is gonna be instituted in 2008, right before he leaves office. Right when I'm eligible to be drafted. Is this war really going to turn into the next Vietnam, just with the word Terrorism in place of Communism? What do you all think about the idea of the draft, will it work, or will this just be a flop of a last-resort?

[Rapscallion]

While there are plenty of unemployed around, they shouldn't have any problem attracting people to fight. There were talks on that basis when I was younger and we were going into Iraq the first time - can't see it happening.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

I highly doubt Bush will restart the Draft. If he chooses to do so right before he is booted out of his position, Congress will shoot him down.

If they DID restart the draft, and for some unknown reason I got drafted, I'd skip town, go to Australia, and go live with Comi. There are wars I'd fight for, and there are wars I wouldn't. This is one I don't support at all.

On that note, end of my spring semester, in my Public Speaking class, I did a speech on how America should have compulsory military service for all able-bodied men. Before the age of 25, every male has to have served at least one year in the military. This way, EVERY guy has to serve. The rich and the poor both join. Then we'd never hear about low military reserves again.

[rahmota]

Well while I am from a military family and am proud of my military relatives I am even more proud because they are volunteers and willingly choose to do the things they have to do. They may not agree with the politics or the reason wfor those actions but they do them in the name of freedom and the belief that right or wrong they are making a difference and doing something good, somehow.

Which is one of the core values of having a volunteer military. While in many cultures compulsory military service is as much a part of growing up as getting your first beer or going to school in America things have always been different. It has always been the belief that a person fights the hardest and most valiently for something they believe in. Not something they are told to believe in but something down deep in their heart that is a part of them

I happen to agree with that POV. Which is why I will always think and feel that compulsory military service is a bad idea for america. Yes it does mean that the poor are vastly over represented in the military as for many that is the ONLY way out of a bad situation and those who are born with a silver spoon dont want to get their hands dirty. But that also means that when the stuff hits the fan the military will be motivated, capable and dedicated to their beliefs.

Oh and about HR 393 The Universal National Service Act of 2007 introduced by Charles B. Rangel is probably going to be a dead bill. But he does have an interesting motive for introducing it at least. Making the military more equal in its representation of all american social classes and regions. And by doing so hoping to prevent the wasteful usage of the military by having the power broker's kids be available to be sent into the front lines.

But considering how Dubya's a draft dodger himself I doubt the draft would come into play anyhow.

[AFPheonix]

Our fighting force became infinitely more effective and lethal once we got rid of the draft the last time. Who wants people who really don't want to be there dragging down the rest of the men?


On the other hand, what I'd LOVE to see would be compulsory civil service for a year or so out of college. Go out and help with schools, Peace Corps, etc. I think that would be a great levelling field and give everyone some good mileage right as they're getting ready to go out on their own.

[rahmota]

AFP: Oh most definately one of the most dangerous people is a motivated believer.

And civil service can take many forms, helping to rebuild the gulf coast, helping clean thigns up here in america. Think of some of FDR's service programs back in the 30s. That would be a nice thign to see.

[powerboy]

I think that they should send the criminals that are on death row. If they make it back, then they become free again. There should be no draft, whats-so-ever.

[rahmota]

powerboy:I think that they should send the criminals that are on death row. If they make it back, then they become free again. There should be no draft, whats-so-ever

Ummm while I agree prisoners can be an interesting resource under certain circumstances. Giving some of the guys behind bars high powered military hardware and setting them loose in another country might be ummmmm creating more issues than they would resolve. Yeah there might be some who would see this as an opportunity to serve their country and pay for their crimes. But I would place a bet on a good many of them would fade into the countryside and become as big a problem if not mroeo so than the insurrgents we're already having to deal with.

Morally I have little problem with prisoners being used to support society though. Just not in an armed capacity, especially if they are in there for violent massive crimes.

[Will-Mun]

Seriously, any word of a Draft coming back and I'm moving to Canada, eh?

I am unemployed, 22, and not in college, I'll be the FIRST name out of the freakin box.

I'm not a coward, I just don't have any interest whatsoever in fighting... I would not fight in a war I DID believe in, because I am not a soldier. I also have a problem with power trippy authority figures.

Now, if my boss asks me to grab something from the back room? Cool... I have some jack-hole drill Sargent screaming at me to give him 20 push-ups, I'm just not going to respond to that.

And I believe compulsory service is just a really, REALLY, bad idea for the same reason I will move if the Draft comes. I should not be put into the position where I am forced to do something I don't believe in...

[rahmota]

Well compulsory service could come in many ways beside fighting if it was done properly. Look back at FDR's Civillian Conservation Corps (Part of his New Deal program that we need to see a revival of). They basically built most of the infrastructure in america's national parks among other things.

It could be being involved in education, rebuilding the gulf coast (You know the republicans and corporate amerika wont do it/dont care to do it) helping clean up urban decay, doing the same thing in national and state parks. All kinds of other options.

[MadMike]

This topic comes up occasionally on other message boards, and even in the local paper.

Some of the people who support it do so because they believe that our elected officials won't be so quick to go to war if they know their sons and daughters could get sent overseas to die.

The huge, gaping hole in this logic (and this is one you could drive a Mack truck through) is that the sons and daughters of the rich and powerful will be the last to be drafted (if ever.) How many congressmen's sons got sent off to Vietnam? I'm guessing that the answer is somewhere in the neighborhood of "very few", if any.

I'm not so worried about myself, as I'm probably too old, and definitely out of shape and overweight. But I have a son who's 13, and 5 years goes by pretty quick. Some people say that Bush's war could still be going on by then.

[ArenaBoy]

Draft comes up you can bet I'm fleeing to Canada. There's no point in forcing people to fight and there's no point in forcing people to fight in something that goes against what they believe in.

[AFPheonix]

Well compulsory service could come in many ways beside fighting if it was done properly. Look back at FDR's Civillian Conservation Corps (Part of his New Deal program that we need to see a revival of). They basically built most of the infrastructure in america's national parks among other things.

It could be being involved in education, rebuilding the gulf coast (You know the republicans and corporate amerika wont do it/dont care to do it) helping clean up urban decay, doing the same thing in national and state parks. All kinds of other options.

Most definitely. My grandpa was in the CCC, he has a lot of stories from those days and it did a great job straightening him out (...well....kinda ;) )
Besides the fact that it would give youths a great life experience, maybe give some a good taste of volunteerism, plus job experience. I can't really think of anything bad about having to do a stint of public service.

[Will-Mun]

Most definitely. My grandpa was in the CCC, he has a lot of stories from those days and it did a great job straightening him out (...well....kinda ;) )
Besides the fact that it would give youths a great life experience, maybe give some a good taste of volunteerism, plus job experience. I can't really think of anything bad about having to do a stint of public service.

Except the fact it's compulsory. If you want to volunteer, thats great... Peace Corps, public service, all that stuff is good, and makes you feel good because you're voluntarily giving your time to do better for someone, or something else.

But when you force back breaking labor upon someone its very very wrong. It feels like punishment. I may seem like a lazy asshole who doesn't care about giving to others... But I'll be damned if the government who prides itself on it's peoples rights and freedoms forces me into civil service of any kind.

[AFPheonix]

Except the fact it's compulsory. If you want to volunteer, thats great... Peace Corps, public service, all that stuff is good, and makes you feel good because you're voluntarily giving your time to do better for someone, or something else.

But when you force back breaking labor upon someone its very very wrong. It feels like punishment. I may seem like a lazy asshole who doesn't care about giving to others... But I'll be damned if the government who prides itself on it's peoples rights and freedoms forces me into civil service of any kind.

Since when would, say teaching in an ESL class be back-breaking labor?

[Will-Mun]

Since when would, say teaching in an ESL class be back-breaking labor?

When I burst a blood vessel in frustration, fall back, and break my back on a desk. :D

And you completely missed my point. Compulsory service is wrong, no person should be forced into doing any service without cause. I have the right to choose what I do with my time. If I want to volunteer, I will...Don't volunteer FOR me.

And in all honesty, I would rather do labor than teach anyone English as a second language... English is one of the more fucked up and confusingly backwards commonly spoken languages there is.

[AFPheonix]

Oh no, I didn't miss your point in the least. I just happen to think a little differently, is all ;)

I was also just elaborating on my own point that civil service wouldn't be all chain gang work out on the railroad. It could take a lot of different forms.
I guess I think of it as an extension of school, which in this country IS compulsory. I just consider it to be a hands-on learning experience that happens to do some great things for others while we're at it. More fun than trigonometry, and chances are you'll remember it better than the difference between sine and cosine in the long run.

[rahmota]

Wil-mun: I can see your point. I am definately a big fan of personal liberty and responsibility. Try and force me to do somethign I dont wish to do and I'll get my back up worse than a grumpy mule.

But I can also see the point AFPO and others are making. Compulsory service doesnt automatically equate out to military service. Not to mention that this country has forgotten a lot of civic pride and duty to their communities. No offense to you if you are young but a lot of american society and youth are greedy selfish lazy bums who only care about getting their own hot thing and dont give a rats arse about their community, their state, their neighbors, their country or the world and humanity in general. Maybe doing some service for their neighbors could reinstill some pride, some selfworth and an understanding of the world around them or at least open some eyes that they are not the end all and be all of the universe.

And with gangs of youth wandering around bored and getting into trouble, unemployed workers of all ages trying to do what they can to support themselves and their families, and college students coming into the real world with no real useful skills and common sense to back up their book learning doing something useful and worthwhile with their lives might not be a bad thing.

So how about instead of compulsory service the government sponsored, supsidized and rewarded those who participate with a wage, medical benefits, education benefits and all stuff but anyone who didnt participate would get jack and have to make it on their own. Yeah arose by any other name but it would come down to you being able to choose to participate and get a real world skills and serivce with pride.

Actually I think a lot of the rights and freedoms we have as citizens are wasted by people who have no clue how those rights and freedoms where earned and how fragile they really are. What I would like to see would be a setup where service equals citizenship. For all people. You could still choose to not serve and you would still have many of the same rights and capabilities of anyone else. For most people it wouldnt be noticable. Just if you where not a citizen you wouldnt have the right to vote, social security or other public funds and assistence etc....Read some of Robert HeinLein's works especially "To Us The Living" for a better example of what I'm talkign about.