Mexico protests border patrol firing tear gas across border

[rahmota]

Apparently The mexican government is getting bent about the US Border Patrol firing tear gas canister across the border at youth who have been throwing rocks and in some cases bottles at american Border Patrol Agents trying to stop illegals from crossing the border near the town of Tijuana.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0145697920080201?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews

Launching tear gas does not contribute in any way to a climate of understanding and collaboration," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement issued late on Thursday.


Um lets see here. People including kids and teens are throwing rocks and bottles across the US border at patrol agents. Patrol agents are trying to uphold US law by stopping illegal immigrants basically invading our country. They fire a tchnically non-lethal tear gas grenade back across the border to try and drive the rock throwers away. The mexican government protests and calls it bad form.

Umm what exactly do they want the Border patrol to do? Use live ammo? I mean there are countries in this world that would be lobbing fragmentation AP grenades back at them or opening up with the 60s. At least tear gas is mostly non-lethal.

Maybe if Mexico would try and slow down or stop the flood of people trying to invade the US then we wouldnt have to start building a frakkin wall along our border and use tear gas.

This is rather interesting though and slightly humorous in a odd way. Here we are with our military bulk 1000s of miles away from home and we are having a border skirmish with Mexico. So do oyou think the Border Patrol can handle the Mexican Army or what? Should the Border Patrol go over to live rouds to stop them or should we just say forget it and open the doors wide.

Personally I see this getting worse before it gets better and there will be live rounds fired again.

[AFPheonix]

The reason we're getting mass migration up from Central and South America and Mexico are multifold.

One, mass corruption, at least in Mexico, makes it difficult for people to get much done without graft. Same thing with a choking buraucracy.

Two, poor development in rural areas keeps the poor impoverished and prevents a growing middle class. There's a huge disparity between the rich and poor in the countries south of us.

Three, organized crime, especially in Mexico, means less farming for decent cash crops and more farming for plants for drugs. Also, extortion and further corruption.

Four, NAFTA lends a hand in undercutting farmers, since it's cheaper to import our corn than it is to grow their own.

I'm sure there's more, but I think we'd be better off helping Mexico and other countries address those problems than working on superficial things like lobbing tear gas over the border and building walls. Ultimately, working towards long term solutions fixes the short term ones.

[CancelMyService]

I'm sure there's more, but I think we'd be better off helping Mexico and other countries address those problems than working on superficial things like lobbing tear gas over the border and building walls. Ultimately, working towards long term solutions fixes the short term ones.

This is all true, but it's easier for politicians to score points by saying how they're TUFF ON IMMYGRANTZ rather than forming policy that solves the root problems that cause illegal immigration in the first place.

I guess actual problem solving isn't sexy enough for sound bytes or to rally the base.

[Boozy]

Um lets see here. People including kids and teens are throwing rocks and bottles across the US border at patrol agents. Patrol agents are trying to uphold US law by stopping illegal immigrants basically invading our country. They fire a tchnically non-lethal tear gas grenade back across the border to try and drive the rock throwers away. The mexican government protests and calls it bad form.

I understand where you're coming from, but there is a big difference between teenage kids throwing rocks and US government representatives throwing tear gas.

These teenagers do not represent the Mexican government or their foreign policy. The border agents are employed by and carry out the policy of the US government and its people.

The US needs to tread very carefully here. Lesser things have been construed as acts of war. I don't see that happening here, but I can understand both sides.

[Seshat]

I guess actual problem solving isn't sexy enough for sound bytes or to rally the base.

That is SO true. :(

As long as the USA (and the rest of the developed world) presents a wealthy image and looks like it's a great place to live, then people whose living environment sucks will try to go there.

Would you like to live in a shantytown in a corrupt city, or would you prefer to live in a climate-controlled apartment in Midwest USA? Where would you prefer to raise your children?

Now me - I've had Google headhunt me and try to get me to move to the USA. No thanks, I prefer it here. But then, I've got a comfortable home that's appropriate to the climate, I've got good public transport, good medical care, and all the perquisites of a first-world country.

Get the developing world up to at least 'second world' standard, and you'll cut the flow of illegal immigrants. Give them the same living standards as the USA, and immigration will approximately equal emigration.

(Of course, a lot of ecologists tell us that the Earth simply won't support six billion people at US living standards. So there's a pretty problem.)

[AFPheonix]

This is all true, but it's easier for politicians to score points by saying how they're TUFF ON IMMYGRANTZ rather than forming policy that solves the root problems that cause illegal immigration in the first place.

I guess actual problem solving isn't sexy enough for sound bytes or to rally the base.

As soon as idiots can manage to vote for someone who actually understands and can implement policy instead of "for the guy I'd like to go have a beer with", we can get some shit done.
Until then, we're fucked.

[rahmota]

I'll agree that the root causes of a lot of the world's problems need to be dealt with in the long term. Unfortunately it is kinda hard to deal with the long term issues when you are flooded with short term problems. Sort of like trying to change the oil on a car when you're still driving it. Gotta get the problem stopped or at least controlled enough to be able to affect it.

Yes Mexico has a buttload of problems. So does america and the options are if they wont clean up their house then we have to do it for them. But we have to get our house cleaned up first.

I'll agree that sounding tough on immigration is cool in the minds of politicians. But something does need to be done. I would love to see a program where immigration can be dealt with in a humanely and legal manner but the way to do that is definately beyond me. And I imagine it actually is beyond a lot of the people that are supposed to be thinking of this too. Do you have any ideas?

Boozy: yeah I understand that things are rather provactive right now. But both sides are being provacative. The mexicans are throwing stones at US agents so that drug dealers, illegals and who knows what else can sneak across the border while the BP is dealing with the rock throwers. And instead of addressing the issues that AFP listed they whine and complain about the US inhumane treatment. Lob a few frags across the border the way the rest of the world would deal with this sort of situation or a rocket attack or two like what happens in Palestine and that would give them a reason to whine.

I'll agree that the US needs to tread carefully here. the way the international community regards the US is already on thin ice and the US keeps tap dancing. But I sincerely doubt this administration is goig to back down on their policy and I know from what I've read a lot of the border states are not going to be happy to back down even if the feds do. Whomever gets into the white house next is going to inherit a mess and depending on how they do it they may wind up peeving off the border states or continuing the situation iwth Mexico. Either way as usual thigns are goin to get uglier before they better I am betting.

I would like to see this resolved peacefully. I would not really like to see a wall or DMZ built between Mexico and the US. but if Mexico wont clean house and get their people under control or do somethign besides help these people come up into the US then we do have the right to defend our borders.

Seshat:(Of course, a lot of ecologists tell us that the Earth simply won't support six billion people at US living standards. So there's a pretty problem.) Thats okay. thanks to the republicans wh're workign on lowering our standards quite nicely....:rolleyes:

[Greenday]

I like how the Mexican government is whining about us using as humane as possible weapons to protect ourselves from VIOLENT protesters. Alls I hear is whine, whine, whine, but I don't quite see the Mexican government trying to do anything about it. As you pointed out, rahmota, we COULD be using lethal force like most other countries.

As for us going to all these other countries and helping them solve their problems, America has a crapload of its own problems to deal with. Our problems need to be our #1 priority. As I've always said, people can't help you with your problems if you refuse to help yourself.

[CancelMyService]

What I want to know, is how did immigrants from Mexico suddenly become like the largest problem of our times only in the last 3-4 years or so? If this was such a major ordeal, how come it didn't become the central focus of the Republican party until they needed a scapegoat after literally everything they've done blew up in their faces?


I guess Reefer Madness: The Musical had it right -


Lecturer: When danger's near, exploit their fear!
Parents: The end will justify the means!

[AFPheonix]

Yep, that's pretty much it. Of course, Canadian illegals are all right because, well, they're white. Asian illegals are ok because they blend in well and make us excellent americanized chinese food.

Them thar hispanics though, are stealin' our jobs! (shakes fist)

Getting my tongue out of my cheek now, however, I DO feel bad for a lot of the families who get in the way of the people coming up. They do have a legitimate claim about being victimized by illegals as they have been stolen from and pets killed to keep them quiet.

Work with your eye on the horizon, and the stuff by your feet will get fixed too, and probably better than it would have if you'd focused on your feet to begin with.

[Greenday]

It's kind of hard to compare illegal Mexican immigrants to illegal Canadian immigrants. I mean, what's the ratio of those two? Gotta be a big difference.

[Seshat]

As for us going to all these other countries and helping them solve their problems, America has a crapload of its own problems to deal with. Our problems need to be our #1 priority. As I've always said, people can't help you with your problems if you refuse to help yourself.

I disagree in part: I think you can help other people with their problems while resolving your own. However, I accept that other people don't necessarily agree with me. I also accept that moving governments is a huge task.

That said, there are small things that make a big difference. Perhaps instead of a string of Christmas lights, you could buy mosquito netting or schoolbooks (http://www.oxfamamericaunwrapped.com/) for someone in need. I often buy Christmas and birthday presents from Oxfam Australia's fair trade shop (http://www.oxfam.org.au/shop/). Here's some American Fair Trade shops (http://transfairusa.org/content/WhereToBuy/). You may already be buying from them, or have some of them conveniently close and no dearer than comparable non-Fair Trade products.

[AFPheonix]

I'm having trouble finding stats, but I did find this:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

[Sylvia727]

Maybe I'm seeing this too simplisticly, but... one group of people attacked another group. If one threw a rock hard enough and hit someone in the head, they could die. So it was a very real threat. The attacked group responded with less violence (i.e. less risk of death) than was shown by their attackers. This is the behavior I expect from my government's representatives--to solve a problem by being the better person.

If someone sees a flaw in that argument, please, point it out to me. Because I can't see anything wrong in that scenario.

[rahmota]

Okay I dont know about and cannot speak for others but I've been concerned about illegals for a time. Its just recently when things have started getting a bit more blatent and in your face with "immigrant rights" that its become a lot more of a burning issue.

I personally have no issue with an immigrant based on planet or country of origin, skin color, religion or whatever. There are rules to get into the country. If they cannot play by the rules to even get into the country then why can I trust someone to play by the rules about anything else? A lot of them may be coming here to just try and better themselves or try for their share of the already shrinking american pie but theres still a good percentage who arnt but the whole sneaking into the country taints anythign else they ever do.

I have no idea what the ratio is to southward illegals crossing from canada and the northbound illegals coming from mexico. I can't find much if any info on that other than it seem like more are coming from the south. Either because thats where all the attention is or because there is a real difference.

AFP: Exactly a lot of the ranches and farms on the border have had major issues not only with the pets getting stolen, eaten or guard animals getting killed, stolen vehicles. But also trash, there has been dead people found who couldnt make it across the desert and I mean its just an ugly situation from everythign I have read or seen. And not just the minutemen are getting bent about this.

Seshat: Part of the problem is that a lot of people are having trouble keeping their own personal heads above water so trying to help others is problematic if it means goign out of their way. Other people higher up the social ladder are wanting to keep their own stuff together or dont care about their own countrymates so how can they be expected to do anythign for someone from another coutry and lets not even start about how big business and big government work hand in hand to not care about anythign other than their own concerns. This is a very selfish and shallow world we live in for the most anymore.

Sylvia: One of the problems is that this is going across an international border. Which complcates thigns a bit. Basically you have the gist of things though. If it was two groups from the same country then there might not be the same kind of concern/issues depending on how thigns went down, but since it is the nationals of one nation attackign the government agents of another in support of an illegal action then it makes the situation a bit more complicated. Which means that things need to be treated with sensitivity and tact. Not something this country is famous for in its international dealings.

Especially as King George is wantign another 2 billion in his budget to make the borders more secure and calls it a homeland security issue. Wanting to expand the fencing and have more agents as well as more beds for illegals awaiting deportation. They are hoping to have 670 miles of fencing up by the end of this year. This on a 1900 mile border.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I disagree in part: I think you can help other people with their problems while resolving your own. However, I accept that other people don't necessarily agree with me. I also accept that moving governments is a huge task.

Assisting other countries is fine, but what Greenday is getting at are major problems we're specifically having here in the US right now. This one of the main reasons for the dissatisfaction Americans of all political persuasions are feeling. We are putting ourselves seriously into debt---our national deficit is huge---and the majority of that money is going to countries our military is occupying. Meanwhile we have

1)a major, historic, culturally important city, destroyed more than 2 years ago, that we haven't even begun to clean up. The government beauracracy and red tape holding up the rebuilding of New Orleans is astounding. The government seems to think that American businesses will deal with it. Unfortunately, New Orleans is a historically economy-poor but culturally-rich city---American businesses have no interest in helping poor and middle class people rebuild their houses. There is nothing in it for them. It needs serious government programs for at least a few years to help the city get back on its feet. Nearly all of the assisted lower income housing has been destroyed. The prime real estate that housing occupied, many in the most historic parts of the city, is now being fought over by corporations who want to build condos, casinos, and other things for the wealthy. The locals are fighting tooth and nail, but they do not have the power or capital of corporations, and the government is ignoring the whole mess.

2) infrastructure that is in bad shape. We had a major bridge collapse in Minnesota which only highlighted the problem. We have been diverting funding from our infrastructure to other things, pork barrels, politician's pet projects, etc. for over 20 years. Parts of the country experience rolling blackouts and water contamination from overtaxed, overextended sewage and electric grid systems, and we have a lot of highways, bridges, and other structures in serious need of maintenance that is not getting done. In fact our aging infrastructure partly caused the New Orleans disaster---the levees were old and neglected, and they failed. Last month my uncle's entire neighborhood in Fernley, Nevada, was flooded when an aged levee broke during a storm.

3) Our schools are so short of funding that the teachers send kids with lists of things to buy first week of school. In some places they have to put things like toilet paper on the lists---because the school doesn't have enough money to stock it! This happens to my cousins and my sister's kids every year. The teachers here are paid so little that many of them can't even afford to buy a house for themselves, they have to go through charitable programs. We have a terrible teacher shortage right now; it's especially bad in places with a high cost of living, as the teachers can't even afford to rent in the places they teach.

If these problems are not *seriously* dealt with in the next couple of decades, the standard of living in America is going to plummet.

[Boozy]

It is undoubtedly true that the US is up shit creek without a paddle.

But I'm not letting them off the hook for years of economic warfare perpetrated against developing nations around the world, including Mexico. I'm not going to get into it much here, because it would seriously derail the thread, but US foreign policy has played a huge role in creating the corrupt governments and unstable economies in Central and South America - where most illegal immigrants come from. I'm not overstating it when I say that in many cases, these people are fleeing situations of America's making.

By all means, focus on your own problems. But could you at least have some compassion for those left in your wake?

[AFPheonix]

Not only that, but a lot of the fixes that would help us would help a lot of our other neighbors. The farm bill is a prime example. Fixing that problem would not only reinvigorate parts of our own economy and middle section of the country, it would help out the countries we're undercutting.

A lot of our problems come from lawmakers who are not taking a long term view of how to interact and deal with our own problems and those of our neighbors. It's not popular to take the time to do something right that may not show the fruits of labor right away. Unfortunately, it's still the right way to do it.

[Seshat]

Meanwhile we have

1)a major, historic, culturally important city, destroyed more than 2 years ago, that we haven't even begun to clean up.

My immediate and first thought was actually Baghdad. Being part of the cradle of civilisation and all. But I do agree that New Orleans is also important.


<snippage>
If these problems are not *seriously* dealt with in the next couple of decades, the standard of living in America is going to plummet.

Agreed. And it's an issue of spending priorities: I agree that your wealthiest people are screwing over the rest of you.

But please note when I suggested things that individuals can do, I suggested forgoing a luxury - a string of Christmas lights - rather than a necessity. I didn't suggest that people who are trying to choose between ramen and heating should buy ramen for someone else: and I would never do so.

America - as a whole - has excess. It's distributed poorly within America, and I do believe that the whole world, including America, would benefit if some of it was distributed outside America as well.

Australia also has excess, though less than America does. As my health permits, I do attempt to help distribute Australia's excess better both within and outside Australia. I do this by contacting my local politicians (and sometimes other peoples' politicians) and drawing their attention to problems both local and international. Or I assist lobby groups that act in my spheres of interest, taking some of the administrative work from people who are better than I at asking corporations for charity funding. (I'm lousy at that.)

I know that those techniques are supposed to work in America as well as here. I don't know what the reality is, but those of you who are interested may want to give it a try.

Plus, of course, those of you who are interested may want to look into whether you can get Fair Trade goods as cheaply and easily as other goods; and those of you who can afford luxuries may consider (only consider! It's your money, your choice) the luxury of buying schoolbooks for a kid who can't otherwise afford them.

[Greenday]

Oddly enough, this got brought up in my Intro to Microbiology course. My teacher compared illegal immigrants to bacteria. What's wrong with the two? They both are harming the bodies they are entering.

Ok, ok, crappy explanation, I just found it hilarious that he started talking about illegal immigration in that class.

[Boozy]

My teacher compared illegal immigrants to bacteria.

What a charming man. I'll bet his parents are so proud to have raised their son to equate human beings with bacteria.

[Greenday]

What a charming man. I'll bet his parents are so proud to have raised their son to equate human beings with bacteria.

He's from somewhere in Africa. I can't quite remember which country though. Not sure if he mentioned.

Actually, there are a lot of parallels between humans and bacteria. And he DOES have a point. Microbes and illegal immigrants both invade into areas without permission. That's about as far as into illegal immigration as he got though. I just wanted to mention it because of how ironic that he mentioned illegal immigration, in a microbiology course, while we were having this discussion.

[AFPheonix]

If he's going to describe immigrants to bacteria, I'd probably go with the symbiotic relationship we have with out intestinal flora.
It's a nasty job, but somebody's gotta do it. And without them, we'd have some seriously runny shit goin' on.

Good lord, he should stick with what he knows. If he wants to soapbox, rant about people not finishing courses of antibiotics or doctors who prescribe antibiotics for every little thing, regardless of whether it's an actual bacterial infection or not.

Also as a microbiologist, he should know that the vast majority of the bacteria in and on our bodies are harmless, if not beneficial.

[Amethyst Hunter]

If he's going to describe immigrants to bacteria, I'd probably go with the symbiotic relationship we have with out intestinal flora.
It's a nasty job, but somebody's gotta do it. And without them, we'd have some seriously runny shit goin' on.

Also as a microbiologist, he should know that the vast majority of the bacteria in and on our bodies are harmless, if not beneficial.

A lot of immigrants, illegal or not, will do jobs that the average American won't do: stuff like cleaning restrooms and the like.

I disagree with giving illegals health benefits like cheap/free medical care (unless it's a serious life-or-death emergency); I agree that if one can afford to do so, one should attempt immigration through legal channels, and there should be programs (and one such has already been proposed through active military service) that help illegals legitimately obtain legal status. I also agree that regardless of the immigration situation in any part of the world, immigrants should attempt to learn some of the country's primary language for dealing with work-related and other such matters - doesn't mean they can't speak their native tongue at home or with friends, but assimilation will go easier if they also know their adopted home's primary language.

As far as the Mexican border goes, as others have mentioned, it's a pretty shitty standard of living down there no matter what the pretty tourism pictures try to paint. Female immigrants are told to take, even given, birth control for their trek across the border - rape is such a serious problem there that it is a GIVEN most if not all females coming into the US will at the VERY LEAST experience an attempted assault of some type. Human trafficking (along with drugs and God knows what else) is a big business in that locale.

[rahmota]

The issues TPG pointed out are the tip of the iceberg here. yeah the US may have done quite a bit of stuff over the years. But if the US tried to fix each and every problem that it caused that would bankrupt us more than ever. And the prblems here at home would still never get taken care of or fixed.

Yeah compassion is a wonderful luxury that the world could use a lot more of. but its a luxury that only those who are not already living in a world of shit can have. People who are barely keeping their own head above watter have to think about securing their own position before they can reach out and help anyone else or they are both screwed.

Also to be perfectly honest intellectually I or the average american knows there are people in mexico or south america living in midevil conditions or worse. That yeah the US did a lot of BS over the years. Oops oh damn too bad so did a lot of other nations in that regard over the history of humanity. We can't go around fixing everything, even the stuff we as a nation did, singlehandedly. Esocially when our own house is in such a messed up state.

Our own infrastructure has been abused, ignored and forgotten about. our own social structures are in a pitiful state. This country needs a major enema thanks to the raping and pilalging of things by our ow social elites. And if we dont fix the problems in this country soon then immigrants are probably going to be coming up here goin WTF? We left these conditions to come here? If things dont get worse.

And around here I dont see any illegals working the fields. I dont see mexicans cleaning toilets. I see american citizens doing these jobs. The whole BS of americans being "too proud or "too good" for those kinds of jobs at least in the area I live and move in is just BS. Maybe in the cities thats true. Maybe elsewhere in the country thats true. just not around here. Folks are more than willing to work to earn their keep in this world.

And i gotta agree with greenday that his professor has a point. Infectious bacteria and Illegal immigrants do have similar behavioral patterns. Yeah making the comparison in a microbiology class was kinda wonky but still apt.

[Seshat]

Our own infrastructure has been abused, ignored and forgotten about. our own social structures are in a pitiful state.

If the majority of your infrastructure is as poor and neglected as the Louisiana levees, then yeah - you've got a good point.

From the outside, America looks wealthy, with extensive infrastructure and a good deal of luxury. Even someone from another comparatively wealthy country who's been to the States a few times (me) sees a good deal of wealth and luxury, even among the lower working class. If that's illusory, though - you've got a lot to do locally.

You have the only wealth that really matters: well-watered arable land. Protect that: whether things go well or poorly for you in the rest of this century, you'll need it.

Good luck.

[rahmota]

yeah a lot of it is very illusionary wealth. You got the got rocks who actually have wealth. you got the middle class trying to look like they are one of the got rocks. The lower middle class trying to hang on to what they got and not fall down the ladder (Thats where I am) while still having something nice now and again. You got the upper poor trying to look like their middle class at bet to trying to avoid being totally rama noodlepack for the family dinner. you got the poor who are just trying to stay alive then you got the under the overpass crowd that everyone else jus wants to forget about or hide from the tourists.

You got multimillion dollar sport stadiums beinng built on taxpayer money while the streets to there are filled with potholes and the bridges are left to rust. The regulatory agencies in charge of inspecting things are overworked, underbudgeted, understaffed. The freeways where built in the fifties and sixties. The air control system is a hodgepodge of ultra tech going down to 40s tech. The power grid began back in the 30s. Bridge built to carry hundreds of cars a day are being used to carry thousands a day.

And as for the land with urban sprawl and "required" development of the infrastructure and all sorts of small noodle farms and housing developments for the growing population even that is in danger. No one wants to live in the city as the schools suck, crime sucks, health care sucks, emergency services suck. But they dont want to adapt and take care of the country they want to brign the city to the country and somehow think it'll all work out and be good when they do so.

Things may look pretty and all peachy keen but its like a used car you scrape the fresh paint off and you find a lot of rust spots and bondo. And I mean yeah compassion would be wonderful buts its a luxury a lot of people cant afford. I mean if you're on a sinking ship you have to make sure you have you and your people safe and secure first before you can go save the world.

[Seshat]

Mmm. I'd noticed the urban sprawl issue. You've got the only wealth that really matters - arable land - and you treat it like dirt.

(Yeah, okay. I love using that pun. Sue me.)

I guess part of the problem is that I tend to assume that the multimillion dollar stadiums are a use of excess wealth. Around here, people will cheerfully nag until the potholes are fixed: go anywhere, and there's neat patches of bitumen, or orange spray-painted markings showing that the council road crew (or sidewalk crew) has been by planning the next round of patches, or witches' hats and neat-edged holes, or just the beginnings of wear showing, before it deserves the orange-paint treatment.

I guess I sometimes forget how different our cultures are.

[protege]

If you really want to see bad roads, come to Pennsylvania. Seriously, our potholes are legendary. Part of the problem is PennDOT. These fools spend more time leaning on shovels, than actually using the damn things. The other, is that our roads were built to save cash. The asphalt and concrete isn't quite thick enough--because of that, it tends to wear out faster. While we're dissing our favorite transit agency...keep in mind too, that the roads in many areas around Pittsburgh, simply weren't designed to handle the traffic.

Now they're trying to expand the highway system, including widening our parkway to 6 lanes...and are running into congestion problems. How? At the time, very little was along the road. Now, there are shopping centers, office buildings, and other things that *cannot* be moved to accommodate.

We have the illusion of wealth here too. Take downtown Pittsburgh. Sure, it *looks* wealthy--lots of skyscrapers, expensive cars, etc. However, the city has been having some serious cashflow problems, mainly because the wealthy do *not* live inside the city limits. Many stay out in the 'burbs.

As such, many of the city neighborhoods are falling apart. Some of it is because there simply isn't the cash to repair things; some of it is because the people there have no pride in their neighborhood. The rest, is because the neighborhood is a crime-infested shithole--why would anyone want to take a risk to invest there (by buying a building, or rehabbing a place) when it'll probably get vandalized or have a hard time getting residents?

[Greenday]

If you really want to see bad roads, come to Pennsylvania. Seriously, our potholes are legendary. Part of the problem is PennDOT. These fools spend more time leaning on shovels, than actually using the damn things. The other, is that our roads were built to save cash. The asphalt and concrete isn't quite thick enough--because of that, it tends to wear out faster. While we're dissing our favorite transit agency...keep in mind too, that the roads in many areas around Pittsburgh, simply weren't designed to handle the traffic.

Seriously, just look at the turnpike. It's a bunch of potholes covered with plywood.

Ok, ok, maybe not plywood, but the section I always drive on is in bad shape. It's always under construction, and it never seems like there is any progress with it. What's going on with that?

[ThePhoneGoddess]

Mmm. I'd noticed the urban sprawl issue.

I touched on this on a thread of Rahmota's on CS a while back. Except for a few urban spots, we are totally dependent on our vehicles. Our suburbs are built around car ownership, unfortunately.

A lot of our land may look arable, but it is not farmable. One of the biggest problems we have in the west is water shortages. In fact, I personally believe that Phoenix AZ and Las Vegas NV will have to be abandoned within the next 200 hundred years or so. Those two cities and Los Angeles all get the majority of their water from the Colorado river system, and it is slowly being drained dry. Los Angeles is on the sea, so if they can get a good seawater reclamation system going, they'll be all right when it finally runs out. The other two, however, are SOL.

Phoenix, especially, has problems. Arizona is a very conservative state; their Republicans are usually in control, and condequently Phoenix has absolutely no water restrictions rules in place. (Water restrictions are seen as a whiny-environmental-liberal thing to do.) The city 1) has some of the worst public transportation of any major city in the US. You cannot survive without a vehicle there. and 2) they have golf courses everywhere. In the desert. With lots of water fountains and such, at the golf courses and at many of the fancy hotels in Scottsdale. And because the tax laws in Phoenix are favorable to businesses, the place is growing like crazy.

This is not even touching on the fighting that goes on between urban areas and farming areas over water. The central California valley has this problem---there's lots of farming there, Napa Valley, etc, and on the coast, lots of cities that use a lot of water. They constantly fight over the set amount of water available.



The multi-million dollar stadiums you see are a use of excess wealth---but it's excess wealth the richest 10% of our population holds. Entertainment is probably the biggest business in America; a wealthy man can build a stadium, and rent it out to be used for sports events, religious gatherings, music concerts, big conventions, all sorts of things and make millions more off of it. Cities will borrow money to build these stadiums, but most of the profits goes back to the guy who lent the money in th efirst place, not the city.

[AFPheonix]

What's more retarded is when you have plans to build these new stadiums, and rather than the team owner footing the bill, they strong arm the city government to try and pass levies for the populace to pay.

Hello, it's a fucking SPORTS STADIUM. How about we pay for other things that are more important? Replacing the Sellwood Bridge would be awfully nice.

[Greenday]

For those who don't know, the Yankees are building a new ballpark. It was just recently estimated that it will now cost about $1.3 BILLION. It will contain party suites, restaurants, a martini bar, rooms built for video conferences so business owners can hold conferences while watching a game, a concierge service...

I mean, what else would you do with $1.3 billion?

[protege]

Speaking of stadiums, for those who don't know, Pittsburgh built *two* new ones a few years back. What was annoying as hell, is that there really wasn't anything wrong with 3 Rivers. The teams simply decided they wanted ones of their own, and actually threatened to leave town if they didn't get it. Well, setting up funding was discussed (don't even get me started about how the teams could afford to pay for it...), and was put out to the voters. Needless to say, the entire thing was voted down. Did that stop the local and state governments from using taxpayer dollars to do it? Fuck no. They ignored the people, and did it anyway by raising the sales tax in Allegheny, and the surrounding counties 1%. Trust me, the people were pissed...and got even in the next election. The city's mayor didn't get reelected, and a few officials got replaced.

Now the Penguins want a new arena. Apparently, it doesn't have "enough" luxury boxes to be competitive any more. And yes, they've threatened to leave too.

What pisses me off, is that I, along with 99.9% of the county, are being forced to pay so some rich asshole can attend a sporting event in a box...

[rahmota]

Protege: yeah thats what the Bengals did in cincy a few years back. They got tired of sharing riverfront with the reds and so a lot of small businesses along the river got ran out by emminent domain abuse and tax levies and stuff to build great american ballpark (named for the great american insurance company not anythign ptriotic althouh nice coincidence eh?) and the bengal's stadium whatever its called.

And believe me I would help the sports tema pack up if they wanted to leave town. You hit the nail on the head with this comment:What pisses me off, is that I, along with 99.9% of the county, are being forced to pay so some rich asshole can attend a sporting event in a box...

Whats worse is the whole Banks project in cincy is stalled backpedaling and failing while Northern Kentucky gets their act together and draws more business, nice homes and urban renewal. Its just crazy.

Seshat: As for the land a lot of the farming that is done in the west is done on land that is marginal at best and like TPG pointed out if it wasnt for irrigation then there wouldnt be any farming at all in many of those lands. At least not to the degree we have now. A lot of the west wasn't meant for the plow to break it. There isnt enough rain or snowmelt and the ogalahha (Spelling?) deep resevoir has fallen by 20 feet since the 1920s when they first measured it according to some experts. And according to them this has a 5-10,000 year refill time.

The colorado used to reach the ocean now it ends 200 yards or so short so much water is diverted upstream. The Rio Grande isnt doing much better from what i've read. Places there a person can run across and not get their knees wet certain times of the year.

And then even in areas like Ohio. Instead of passing laws to help promote and protect the family farm they encourage housing developments to spring up. I cannot tell you how sad it is to see a 100 acre or more farm taken and broken down into 5 acre lots in this county. Down closer to cincy they would break that down into 1 acre lots or less and put up thsose stupid big houses that take up 80% of the lot so you might as well live in an aprtmnet buildign you're so close to your neighbor.

And sad to say water shortages are not exclusive to the west anymore. Remember hearing about that town in Tenn that ran out of water and the mayor had to go to the next town over and truck back enough water to let people have water for 2 hours a day? Florida, Georgia and Alabama about got into a major fight over water rights with each other and the feds.

Heck the local lakes around here had a few boat ramps they had to shut down because the water was too low for people to get anythign bigger than a rowboat out.

Things are not pretty. Things are not going to be pretty for some time.

[Seshat]

I know that arid and semi-arid land isn't farmable and should be farmed very carefully - if at all. We're increasingly eating kangaroo here because soft-footed narrow-mouthed animals eating local grasses is much gentler to arid/semi-arid soil than hooved wide-mouthed animals that pull local grasses up by the roots and rely on imported grasses - which rely on irrigation.

Once again, I failed to say what I meant - which is my fault. Sorry.

You have some lovely soils in the midwest and the east: a combination of geologically young/median soil and good rainfall. That's the arable land I meant. My apologies.

But look after your deserts as well.

As for water-wasters who think ecological care is crap: I hope they're all in Las Vegas and Phoenix when the people further south than the water diversions break the diversion pipes. And that noone else is. And that the pipes take time to fix. Do you think two weeks is enough for them to learn their lesson? :D

[ThePhoneGoddess]

The east does not have a whole lot of available farming land, that I am aware of. Rahmota lives over there, so maybe he can shed some light on that area. The midwest, though, has its own problems. They also suffer from water shortages.

The other issue they have is the obsession with corn production. Most midwesterners farm corn. Corn is used in everything over here; corn oil and corn starch are extracted from the corn and put into every kind of convenience and packaged food imaginable, and the leftovers are used as livestock feed.

A huge amount of corn is also used to manufacture ethanol. As the price of gas goes up, more and more people are switching to ethanl laden fuels, making it profitable for corn farmers. Consequently a lot of people don't want to grow anything else. You know what happens when you don't rotate crops? The soil then has to be artifically laden with vitamins and minerals to grow stuff. It happens all over here.

Note: many of our most socially conservative people are midwestern farmers. It's very common in rural farming areas in Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, etc to be an evangelical Christian. The politics in that region reflect this: it's a very conservative area, and the laws are heavily skewed in favor of businesses, giving them little oversight.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I was surprised when Seshat said she sees America as very wealthy and well cared for. I wonder if that is what she sees on TV? And yes, that includes news stories from American news media. Beware what you see on TV---TV land is a magical land of perfect suburbs and smiling families with no problems on the horizon. News media is included in that. I was surprised because to those who live here the problems are glaring, obvious, and have become really bad in the last 20 years.

Our government is corrupt. It is corrupt from the highest levels, way down to, in some cases, even the local county or city level. The government lies to us regularly, they strong-arm us into legislation that is badly thought out, they use our occupation of other countries to manipulate us for their own ends. We know this, and many of us try to vote in such a way that will help root it out, but it is not working. We regularly vote people out, voting new people in who promise to fix things, and then they start all over again with the same crap. The system is corrupt all the way through and we can't seem to get to the root of it; like pulling weeds, if you don't pull up the entire root, it sprouts up again and continues to grow. This happens at local level all the time, to school boards and city councils and such. It never seems to end.

Oh, and let us not forget the entertainment. TV, film actors, tabloids, sports figures---it's all there. The writer's strike is a great microcosm of what's going on here. They write the content---but they get paid the least. Hollywood writers live lower middle class. Meanwhile, the words they write are produced vy producers who make millions, and spoken by actors who make millions.

[protege]

Sure, there is some wealth here...but it's mostly concentrated in very small areas of the US.

And no, life in the 'burbs, is *not* what you see on TV. Yes, we have very little crime, but that's where the similarity ends. Quite a bit of things go unreported, or do not make the papers. How do I know this? Well, after my credit card number was stolen last year, I went to the police station. As the officer and I were talking (he knew my dad), he was telling me of some things that had happened--domestic violence is actually pretty common where I live. Contrary to what you see on shows like COPS, it doesn't just happen in the trailer park.

As to our government, it seems that no matter who we get in office, it's still "business as usual." Locally, our taxes keep going up, the young people (and jobs) keep leaving...and the elected idiots can't figure things out. ...and before anyone blames the Republicans, Pittsburgh has been a Democrat stronghold since 1933. They claim to be the party "for the working man" yet seem to screw over the "working man" constantly.

What sucks, is that whatever happens in downtown Pittsburgh, also affects the rest of the county. Their cash flow problems have hit the rest of us. Recently, those fools implemented a 'commuter tax' on people who worked inside the city, yet didn't live there. They got away with it, since the people who were being taxed, didn't live inside the city limits, therefore couldn't vote on it! Taxation without representation...meaning some companies said "fuck you" and moved outside of the city.

The system is such a bloated mess that change doesn't happen. During every election, there are constant claims of bringing jobs here, and trying to keep young people here. Does it happen? Hell no. From 1950 to 2000, we've literally lost about half our population! Most of those folks moved out to the 'burbs or surrounding counties. Those who didn't, left the area totally.

Sure, there are some jobs created, but not on the large scale that the mills once had--some had about 25,000 people working in them! Some of those mill sites have been redeveloped for retail and living space, but it's not like it was. The jobs created are usually not high-paying. We need to attract more employers to the area, which, given the taxes and other things, probably isn't going to happen.

[AFPheonix]

I guess I'm lucky, our area isn't too bad off, what with Nike, Microsoft, Intel, and Boeing in my region.
Portland and Seattle are also pretty progressive cities that are desirable to live in.
Portland especially has been very good at urban planning and building a reputation as a green city.
It's also doing a fairly good job of integrating neighborhoods into the city proper to keep populations inside, rather than becoming an exodus to the burbs.
We do have a large suburban area with Beaverton and Hillsboro, but the use of the urban growth boundary has been a great way to preserve natural areas and farmland from sprawl. It's not a perfect solution, but it hasn't been at all bad, either.
We do have a lot of immigration up here, both from other states and from down South. I've had to translate about 10 time here in the last week for customers who did not speak english well enough to understand the english-speaking pharmacists. Overall though, they haven't been a total drag on our economy. If anything, the crackdown on immigration hurt many small farmers, berry patch owners, and orchard owners. We had a lot of crops go bad on the branch last summer for lack of people to pick them. We just don't have the technology yet to automate those jobs when it comes to fleshy fruits.
They've automated nut harvest well, simply by keeping the areas under the trees absolutely immaculate and driving essentially a large vacuum down the rows and sucking the nuts up off the ground.

Part of what keeps Portland and the rest of Oregon so honest is a very involved populace. We also use the initiative system heavily to create voter-driven legislation. Sometimes it turns out badly, but overall it's a good thing. It does need some tweaking in places, especially laws regarding signature gathering.

Can you tell I really like where I live? ;)

[Seshat]

I was surprised when Seshat said she sees America as very wealthy and well cared for. I wonder if that is what she sees on TV?

I've been to the States several times, living in the homes of ordinary people, talking to ordinary people.

Even comparing US vs Australian lower middle class, the American has more stuff and superficially looks wealthier. But the Australian does have better medical care and more educational opportunities, and other such things that probably matter more when real wealth is compared. (For comparison, here's our income tax rates (http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/12333.htm&pc=001/002/046/002/002&mnu=1045&mfp=001/002&st=&cy=1). We also have a 10% goods and services tax on non-foods and pre-prepared food.)

However, when considering international issues, you Americans probably need to understand that you look wealthy. Even your working poor look well off, to those who see US media. Even to those who communicate regularly with Americans, or who have been to the States. It takes looking for the details of your lives to really see the problems. So when you're trying to understand things from the POV of foreigners, bear that in mind.

It's interesting watching this thread. I'll sort of go quiet and listen for a while, I think.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

Even your working poor look well off, to those who see US media.


I think that's the problem right there, our News Media is notoriously corrupt and far too influenced by our entertainment industry. (One of the biggest surprises in recent years to those in power is how few young people get their news from traditional news media. Most of the young here get their news from the internet.) The 'working poor' you see on the news are, for the most part, either lower middle class or people living paycheck-to-paycheck because they are in college or something like that---being poor temporarily while they better themselves. Do not trust what the American news media tells you---they manipulate you.

I assure you, the REAL poor here don't end up on the news. They're not interesting enough or pretty enough to be. You never see pictures of the people who live in primitive log cabins in the Appalachias, or the people who live over garbage dumps along the US Mexico border. You never see pictures of poor Navajo or Lakota children living in their 640's on the reservation, eating government issued cheese and flour rations and dying from diabetes at an inhuman rate. And those are just the out of the way areas---you also never hear about the rural whites in places like Michigan or Pennsylvania, who are overwhelmingly dependent on welfare, have no job prospects in their small towns, and commit suicide at alarming rates.

Take Second Harvest---America's biggest food bank Network. According to them, nearly 35 million Americans lack access to enough food to stay healthy. Around 4.5 million people receive emergency food assistance from them in any given week. Food banks are facing a growing shortage of food to give out to the people who come to them in need, because less food is being donated while more people are seeking them out.

[Greenday]

Speaking of educational opportunities, I pay about $16,000 a year for my college, and that is out of state. That's considered pretty cheap for college here. How much is it for those of you not in America?

[CancelMyService]

I remember seeing a bumper sticker a long time ago (before the Iraq mess when such stickers weren't as common) saying something to the effect that wouldn't it be nice if schools got billions and the Air Force had to have a bake sale for funds.

Obviously that's more than a bit glib, but it does bring up a good point at how the US will give the military industry literally any dollar amount they want to go kill people on the other side of the world while our kids have to whore themselves out for school supplies. Not to mention any mention of wanting to increase funding for schools gets you branded a bedwetting tax and spend liberal. Where's the common sense?

[Seshat]

Speaking of educational opportunities, I pay about $16,000 a year for my college, and that is out of state. That's considered pretty cheap for college here. How much is it for those of you not in America?

For my first years of university - nothing. Well, books and paper and travel and the like, plus about $600 AUS in student union fees.

The HECS system (Higher Education Contribution Scheme, from memory) was instituted just in time for me to catch the first year or two of it. You went through uni, and you could either pay your HECS debt up front, or through taxes after you graduated. Looking HECS up now, it's - ah. It changed in 2005. My HECS debt was only about $5K.

Maybe someone going through Aussie uni now can explain the current system.

[AFPheonix]

I think that's the problem right there, our News Media is notoriously corrupt and far too influenced by our entertainment industry. (One of the biggest surprises in recent years to those in power is how few young people get their news from traditional news media. Most of the young here get their news from the internet.) The 'working poor' you see on the news are, for the most part, either lower middle class or people living paycheck-to-paycheck because they are in college or something like that---being poor temporarily while they better themselves. Do not trust what the American news media tells you---they manipulate you.


The other thing to consider is that many Americans, although they have lots of toys, do not have much in the way of liquid wealth as they are indebted up to their eyeballs. Savings rates in this country are quite low, and it's especially noticeable in the high risk mortgage crisis going on that many of us are pretty over-extended.

[CancelMyService]

People tend to blame the victim a lot too. I mean, almost every commercial for the last 8-10 years was about refinancing your house and buying all the toys you want with the equity of their houses, rather than using a refi to do something smart like get yourself out from under a ridiculous interest rate like my mom did.

Now all those second/third/etc mortgages come due and no one can pay them. I see a lot of people throwing these folks under the bus, but when you're subject to constant advertising combined with some questionable if not flat out illegal lending practices, well that's when it all hits the fan.

Can you believe that in spite of the mortgage crisis going on, there's still a major bank here that uses Jerome Bettis to advertise their super-dee-duper Visa card that's *tied in to the equity of their house*. It took me a few viewings of the commercial for me to realize this card wasn't a regular credit/debit card, but you actually are given a Visa card that allows you SPEND THE EQUITY OF YOUR HOUSE . Holy shit, is that a horrible idea. After spending all that time convincing people credit cards = free money, now you can rack up debt and literally spend yourself out of house and home.

I swear, credit is the biggest racket ever foisted on society. The system is geared to not allow or make it difficult to do any major purchases like a home or car without some sort of credit history. Your entire existence and worth as a person is distilled into a single number Even worse, the methods used to obtain that number are kept hidden from the folks who are gaged by it. Hell, I applied and received a line of credit from Dell for a new PC and monitor, but despite me paying a good chunk of it off immediately, my credit score dropped like 50 points. Why? Who knows. Probably because it was a check on my score to issue the card and then having one awarded to me increased my available credit lines. I have no idea for sure, since inquiring on how your credit score is obtained just gets you a bunch of jargon and mathematical hocus-pocus.

[AFPheonix]

I do blame the victim to an extent. These are the very same people who can't be bothered to read bloody signs when they come to our places of business. Apparently they can't be bothered to read up on huge life choices like mortgages and fiscal discipline. In this day and age there's NO excuse. There are a bazillion books out there, there's the internet, the credit score companies have resources available to help you learn how to earn and keep good credit, there's tv shows dedicated to nothing but financial stuff, there's a bazillion professionals to talk to, classes at the local community college......
I could go on and on and on. The reality is that people got dazzled with having shiny things, didn't feel like reading the fine print, and now they get to sleep in the bed they made. Furthermore, the companies that were stupid enough to lend to these people are getting it in the butt. It's really a modern form of Darwinism.

I will say I heard a commercial the other day on the radio that absolutely made me furious. I rarely listen to commercial radio but it's pledge drive time at the local NPR affiliate. It was some podunk mortgage lender doing the serious voice over serious music thing, telling people that they'd been lied to; there was no mortgage crisis, come on down and refinance today! Woo! Absolutely irresponsible.

[CancelMyService]

That's what I'm talking about. Yes, there is information to be found that will help people make correct and informed choices, but people are also bombarded nearly 24/7 with the opposite message. That doesn't completely excuse someone from making bad decisions, but it's hard to put it all on the person who took out the refi loan when the bank just shuffles papers under your nose and tells you to sign.

(Don't even get me started on those ridiculous Mandatory Arbitration clauses either)

[protege]

When I bought my house in 2006, I had no idea what I was doing. Seriously. I knew a bit, but not nearly enough. So I took a (free) homebuyer's class. Quite a few of the people in that class had no idea what was going on. These same fools were the ones who just *had* to spend their cash on the newest toys, and then couldn't understand why their credit rating was shit.

Some of that is because many Americans are fucking idiots, some of it is because they expect everyone else to take care of them. It just amazes the hell out of me that people aren't more careful when dealing with a *major* item that has the potential to screw them over for years.

[CancelMyService]

Again I state that just because people don't always do their homework, doesn't mean it should excuse the companies that engage in predatory lending tactics or push risky refi/home equity loans that are little more than quasi legal ponzi schemes.

[Seshat]

Both sides are in the wrong.

People should be careful with financial decisions, and should take the time and trouble to become informed about their finances.

Companies shouldn't be misleading about their credit products, and should be careful when lending money to ensure that the potential debtor is able to meet repayments without cutting himself short on food, shelter, and such necessities.

And then there's my opinion on predatory advertising in general - which I feel so strongly about that I never let myself vent about it in public. I have a reputation to uphold. ;)