Being Ashamed Of Natural Processes

[the_std]

... Specifically, the female ones. Even more specifically, menstruation.

Look, I understand that spreading disgust about menstruation throughout pretty much all of society was another way to keep control over women. I do get the historical basis. But those ideas surviving today is doing nothing except hurting women, especially the women who perpetuate this mentality.

It's just blood! If you get squicked out by blood no matter where it's coming from, okay, you get out of jail free. But the huge number of people I've met who are fine with blood except when it's coming out of a vagina is just ridiculous! And the women who are embarrassed over this, again, completely natural process make me even sadder. I know it's because parents and society continue to perpetuate this stigmata, but wake up and smell the iron, sisters! It's not going to help you if you keep up with this idea. I'm not saying you should start painting with your menstrual blood, but that is no reason to hide your tampons when you're buying groceries, or hide from the world for the three to seven days of your cycle. Okay, accompanying side effects of cramps, bloating, bitchiness, whatever, those are fine reasons. But I had friends in high school who would skip classes solely because they were ashamed of the fact that they were bleeding.

What started this whole rant is this thread on CS (http://www.customerssuck.com/board/showthread.php?t=62420). As a side effect, what is so gross about clean, unused diapers? Fresh tampons? The illusion of menstrual blood? Why can't people admit that there is nothing wrong with any of this? Okay, maybe it'll be a while before it's a topic of conversation for "polite" company, but there is no reason to act like you are pooping your pants for a week at a time. Argh.

[Plaidman]

I agree. Its a perfectly natural thing. Half the world does it belive it or not. Its been happening since the dawn of time. Your not embrass when you buy bandaids, but tampons are like giant bandaids.


I just don't care. I get woman embrassed they buy them. I get men embrassed. Its like, what dude. Its for your girlfriend. I get it.

Its the same for condoms. Why so ashamed to be having sex and being safe about it? Hmm?


Oh well. so many people are strange.

[fireheart17]

I've had a few men buying tampons at my work and telling me that it wasn't what it looked like...I just cut them off by (loudly) stating "I have long since learnt: do not question what people buy."

Otherwise, I don't even bother these days to hide them.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I buy pads openly; always have done. I once had a moment in Boots where I bought a giant bar of chocolate, a packet of pads, and some headache pills in one shop; and the teenage boy cashier could barely look me in the eye. XD I had a good laugh about that later.

However, I'm still not going to go for the school of thought that states, "Celebrate your period!" I'm not going to celebrate something that causes me pain and misery, thanks very much. Not so much now, but I still remember what I went thru as an eleven year old with my period and I am not jumping up and down with joy about suffering thru that, kthnxbai.

[Boozy]

I once had a moment in Boots where I bought a giant bar of chocolate, a packet of pads, and some headache pills in one shop; and the teenage boy cashier could barely look me in the eye.

He must have been new at the job; that's hardly a rare combination of items for most women to buy. :D

[Fryk]

I've never had a problem with menstruation. But then again, I'm like Dave Foley here:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cLHBwvMVow

[KellyHabersham]

For me, part of is because of the way my mom would act about it - one example being that she would mark on the calendar when she, my sister, and I started our periods each month. Not sure what the reason behind this was, and apparently Mom doesn't remember doing this.........but my sister had to explain to friends back in the day what "KP, CP, and JP" meant on the calendar.

[blas87]

Every time I hear a man or woman use that dreaded "I don't trust anything that bleeds for 7 days and doesn't die" quip, I seriously want to murder them. I am not kidding. I have to hold back from at least whipping a shoe at them or making a fist.

[Lace Neil Singer]

He must have been new at the job; that's hardly a rare combination of items for most women to buy. :D

That's what I assumed. :p And no sisters, either, I expect.

[Ghel]

I can kind of understand the stigma against menstruation. I'm usually bloated and achy during my period, and even though I don't get horrible cramps like some women do, I still don't feel very attractive or sociable during my period. Not to mention that menstrual blood smells like rotten raw hamburger. (Ugh, I just grossed myself out typing that.)

Yes, it's a natural process, but so is taking a dump. And I don't want to talk about that, either. On the other hand, I agree that it shouldn't be a problem for anyone to handle clean tampons and pads. It's just cloth and paper, for crying out loud.

[BlaqueKatt]

I've had a few men buying tampons at my work and telling me that it wasn't what it looked like..

what they aren't a decent guy doing something nice for a woman in his life(mom, sister, roomate, GF....)? That's what it looks like to me :D

Several of my Ex-Boyfriends were proud to buy my menstrual products-it was a "Hey look I have a woman!!!!" thing to them.

Now I use reusable* products for three reasons-
1-I'm cheap/thrifty-a 13 dollar sea sponge cut up-$30 diva cup will last me for years-what are you paying per month-I'm in fractions of pennies
2-better for the environment
3-since I can rinse and reuse-I'm not gonna run out at a bad time or anytime..

[Plaidman]

Yes, it's a natural process, but so is taking a dump. And I don't want to talk about that, either. On the other hand, I agree that it shouldn't be a problem for anyone to handle clean tampons and pads. It's just cloth and paper, for crying out loud.

Yeah, but i never have had a customer EMBRASSED to buy TP unlike maxipads/tampons, where the customers are acting like they just committed some unspeakable crime. Or that they just puked on the leader of the free world. or something that is at least worthy of being a ting bit of embrassment.

[the_std]

I never said anything about liking menstruation. I enjoy the realization that I've gotten my period every month because it means that I'm not pregnant, but I don't know anyone who enjoys having it.

The world has accepted the fact that people pee and poop. It's not really a polite topic for discussion, but there are very few people who are ashamed of the fact that they expel fecal matter from their colon... They might be ashamed of being witnessed in the act, but most of the women I've met have met are loathe to admit that, once a month, they bleed from their genitals. It's so unhealthy.

[Rebel]

I think the only time I've ever been embarrassed about having a period is when I've been caught out. There is nothing worse than having to ask another female around (co-worker, friend, etc) if they have any spare tampons or pads, especially if it's in a semi crowded place.
I'm not embarrassed about the fact that I get a period (Yay! Not pregnant!), but I'm not really a fan of having other people know about it.

[AdminAssistant]

Oh, having to ask for a tampon can be pretty humiliating sometimes. Luckily, I now know that our department secretary keeps a large stash of feminine supplies in her desk for anyone to use. :D Of course, being the theatre department, you know that the costume shop always has tampons and the sound technician always has condoms. :devil: (No, they're for the microphone packs, really!)

Seeing as how I've gone through the checkout lane at Target with chocolates, beer, a pack of batteries, lube, condoms, lingerie, and a Bertolli dinner, not much fazes me anymore. :lol:

[Racket_Man]

as a guy I have no problems with periods. just a litttle more stuff during certain intimate moments and a little more cleanup (I know TMI BUT...)

I had no problems with buying feminine products. as long as I knew what brand, the size and the "flow" requirement, it was just the same as buying other items in the store. Ring um up and get me outta there. Did get a few funny looks from the female cashiers but I guess I am a modern day male :D:D:D

[Lace Neil Singer]

My main reason for my reply was the whole "Have a happy period" thing that your post brought to mind: http://www.always.com/period/haveahappyperiod.jsp

And of course, the rebuttal: http://wendi-aarons.blogspot.com/2007/03/as-seen-on-mcsweeneysnet.html

XD

[Boozy]

I think being embarassed about asking another woman for a tampon is a perfect example of what the_std was talking about.

If there's nothing shameful about menstruation, why would you be embarrassed?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Could say the same about sex, in a way; that's a natural thing, too. So, why feel embarrassed about approaching people and asking for a spare condom? XD

[Boozy]

Could say the same about sex, in a way; that's a natural thing, too. So, why feel embarrassed about approaching people and asking for a spare condom? XD

It depends on who you ask, right?

I wouldn't walk up to a stranger and ask for a tampon, but I have no problem asking a co-worker or friend.

Most of us wouldn't ask our parents for a condom, but we'd ask a roommate.

The people the_std are talking about are those who speak in hushed tones about their periods like there's been a death in the family or something. They're the ones who can't even ask their best friend for a tampon.

[blas87]

Then again, birthing babies is normal and natural. But the process itself makes me extremely squeamish and I don't think anyone should blame people who are freaked out by that thought.

[Boozy]

Well, sure. That's fine and understandable.

But there's a difference between getting squicked out by something and being embarrassed by it. I don't care to hear the gory details of someone's labour and delivery, but there's nothing embarrassing about having a baby.

I think it's a bit crazy that most women (with particularly brutal menses) can't call into work and say "I can't come in today because I have my period." Instead, they have to say that they're feeling "under the weather" in an effort to avoid embarrassing someone.

Let me put it this way: Food poisoning involves a lot of icky fluids too, and yet most sufferers don't feel the need to lie about what's wrong with them when calling in sick.

[blas87]

Now that I have a female boss, I wouldn't hesitate to tell her it's because of my period.

But I don't get a period, at least until I switch birth control. I need a better excuse.

You do have a good point, though.

How about stuff like douches and female washes/powders?

For some reason, I find myself hiding the douches and all Summer's Eve products at the bottom of the shopping cart and always using the self scans.

[the_std]

Why do you do that, blas? I know this isn't your intention, but it ties into my OP quite nicely... Except, instead of being ashamed of having a period, it seems as though you are ashamed of having a vagina, or keeping said vagina clean. Why be ashamed of that, but not of bleeding from it?

[blas87]

Because I don't bleed from it.....well, haven't since I was 17. *Depo Provera birth control shot*

And believe you me, the last time I ever menstruated, I either sheepishly walked around Wal-Mart and scurried to the checkouts with my tampons, or asked my mum to get them for me.

I'm pretty sure I've gotten over the period thing, if it were to ever return, I doubt I'd care about buying tampons. I have had to buy pads after colposcopies and the time I had my cervix frozen, and I wasn't that worried.

The douche/wash/wipes thing....I cannot get over it. I'm not sure if it's because douching is kind of medically taboo, or if it's because I'm afraid a guy might see and think "Eww her cooch is nasty", which is the reason I douche because I think it's smelly and gross and I hate the discharge that comes out of it. I douche to get rid of secretions and to make it feel fresh. For being so medically bad for you, it sure feels good to do it.

I feel the same way about the wipes/wash/powders. I can't really explain it any further.

But I'm sure I'm not alone in the fact that a lot of girls fear they are "unfresh" or "stinky".

[the_std]

And by being ashamed of your body doing its thing and trying to keep itself clean (that's what those secretions are for, after all), it's perpetuating the stereotype. This is pretty much exactly what I was talking about. If you care so much about what guys will think of you because you don't like your body doing its natural thing, you're giving them the power to say that it's gross, that women are gross, that it shouldn't be talked about.

I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, it's just that you are an excellent example of my point.

[AdminAssistant]

I'm amazed they even sell douches - they are really not good for you. If you do have an actual bad odor/discharge from 'down there', it's probably some kind of yeast infection and you should go to a gyno. Otherwise, it's just natural. Wear cotton undies, drink mostly water, and life is good. (I've never douched, and the SO loves the way I smell and taste.)

Wet wipes are just good hygiene though, especially as a quick clean up after sex.

[blas87]

I had a yeast infection last year, but that was its own awful smell and texture.

It's no secret I am a little insecure and awkward about my body (my recent weight gain proves that alone). A lot of it is me. My bf has never complained of the smell or taste. Only complains when I don't shave it ;)

I know it's bad for you. It just feels so good and it really makes me feel fresh and clean. I don't know why....but I just like it.

And I will agree, Admin. In fact, it doesn't even have to be Summer's Eve wipes. Even the Cottonelle wet wipes are great. I feel totally clean after using them. I don't use them every time I go potty, mostly before I leave and before bed or before/after sex, but wow they are awesome.

[XCashier]

Every time I hear a man or woman use that dreaded "I don't trust anything that bleeds for 7 days and doesn't die" quip, I seriously want to murder them. I am not kidding. I have to hold back from at least whipping a shoe at them or making a fist.
"So, you never trusted your mother?" Yes, that is sexism to the extreme, and thank you Bubba for letting me know that you're a backwards-thinking sexist git.

And you've heard women say it too?! Unbefuckinglievable. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the only thing worse than a male chauvinist is a female male chauvinist! :rolleyes:

[Rebel]

I think being embarassed about asking another woman for a tampon is a perfect example of what the_std was talking about.

If there's nothing shameful about menstruation, why would you be embarrassed?

It's not so much the fact that you're menstruating, it's more the fact that you're unprotected while menstruating. At that point, it's a very good chance that your underwear is ruined, even more annoying if it happens just as you get to work and you have to keep wearing them till you get home. It's more of a 'I'm not very clean right now' thing and that you've just advertised that to someone.

I was one of those lucky girls that got her first period when she was 9 (stupid hormones), so I've had more than enough time to get over any embarrassment when buying tampons and pads. Luckily I don't have to do that too often anymore (thank you Implanon!).

As for douches, I've never used them. I thought it was more of an old fashioned thing to do. But I do try to shower twice a day. I like being clean :)

[Lace Neil Singer]

As mentioned before, I first got mine at eleven. I'd already had the periods talk with my mum, who'd already bought me a starter pack (with pads, advice booklet etc) for me to keep in my knicker drawer. There was never any embarrassment factor, due to the fact that my mum had talked things over with me; my main issue was with the extremely heavy bleeds and bad period pains. -.-

For the record, I'd never say it was my period that was keeping me off work; not out of embarrassment, but cuz a lot of people, both men and women, have the opinion that a period isn't something that is going to stop you doing anything and anyone who says otherwise is either being a woobie or making a huge fuss about nothing. -.- Then again, all I get now is a bleed in between pill packets with some PMS and period pain; nothing bad enough to keep me off work.

[Amanita]

Here's something I would like the ladies here to have a look at. I found this on a Pagan website.
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=caon&c=words&id=11429

It's an essay by a Wiccan woman about menstruation. While I sympathize with her bad experiences as a girl, in regards to the shame associated with buying and using pads and the like, she completely loses me in the essay's second half.
She has nothing but harsh words and condemnation for any woman who doesn't celebrate their period, or for those whose periods are problematic in any way.
Her one-size-fits-all solution? Exercise. Seriously. She claims that no fitness instructors suffer from painful periods, and that if we don't exercise as she says we should, we are breaking the Wiccan Rede.

She also makes NO mention whatsoever about endometriosis or PCOS, or other disorders which cause painful or heavy periods, no suggestion that ladies suffering from excessive cramps or bleeding go get themselves checked out to rule out anything serious. No, just exercise more, or else!
Gah. Never mind that there are ladies out there fit enough to run the NY Marathon, who still suffer from painful cramps and bleeding.

[RavenStarr]

She has nothing but harsh words and condemnation for any woman who doesn't celebrate their period, or for those whose periods are problematic in any way.


.

I wonder what she would say to women who's had a complete hysterectomy. Or women facing menopause for that matter.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Never mind that; I want to know what they'd say, and do, to her. O_o My guess is that it wouldn't be pretty.

[RavenStarr]

Also, it says she loves the color of menstruel blood so much, she uses it in paintings:eek: Gross I need the throwup smiley, brain bleach or something. GAH!!!!

[the_std]

Okay, why is it gross to paint with menstrual blood?

[Rapscallion]

Stem cells, dude. Plenty of stem cells in endometrium.

Probably. I've heard people objecting to stem cell experiments, so...

Rapscallion

[Lace Neil Singer]

Okay, why is it gross to paint with menstrual blood?

Painting with any bodily fluid is gross, whether it's menstrual blood, semen, shit, piss... anyway, even taking out the grossness factor, wouldn't it smell? O_o

[blas87]

Blood is a biohazard.

There's accepting being a woman and menstruating, but painting with your blood is just messed up and crazy. Sorry, if I knew of someone doing that, I would hope someone would commit them before they found other "natural" things to paint with and get someone very sick.

[Hobbs]

Blood is a biohazard.

There's accepting being a woman and menstruating, but painting with your blood is just messed up and crazy. Sorry, if I knew of someone doing that, I would hope someone would commit them before they found other "natural" things to paint with and get someone very sick.
I read somewhere that an "artist" used poo and piss for their "art." It was, literally, shitty art.

[the_std]

Painting with your own blood, collected in a completely non-painful and safe manner, is worth being committed? How? And how is painting with blood a biohazard? Are you expecting people to be rubbing their faces on the canvas? Most art, especially visual art, is something people don't touch. Cadmium, which is a component in a lot of acrylic paints (especially in the red-yellow spectrum) is also a toxin. But it's only toxic if you touch it, lick it, ingest it somehow. Dried blood on a canvas is completely safe. And it's only likely to smell when it's still wet. Dried blood has little odour. So I still don't understand what's so wrong about it. I personally happen to think that dried blood has a cool colour and it adds meaning to a painting. It's personal. It's like adding a dead pet's ashes into your paint to make them a part of a memorial or some such. I also think the same thing of any other safe bodily fluid, like semen or urine. As long as you're not sticking your face in it, there's no problem.

So what's the problem with it, other than an instinctual ick factor?

[RavenStarr]

But the difference between ashes,and blood , shit and piss is that ashes don't come out of your ass or vagina.

If it comes out of your ass, mouth or vagina it shouldn't go on paper. I wonder what Doctors would say about painting with bodily fluids.

[the_std]

But why? Do you have a reason besides "I say so"?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Aren't hygiene reasons enough?

[the_std]

But there are no hygiene reasons unless people are going to be licking your paintings. People don't lick paintings. How is there a hygiene reason?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Children might lick paintings; plus, people might touch paintings. If the person who's painted the picture has a disease that can be passed thru bodily fluids, it could get transmitted if someone touches it with a finger that has a cut.

In any case, it's disgusting. If you want to paint a semen picture and submit it to the national gallery, feel free; but that won't take away the fact that the majority of people feel that painting with bodily fluids has a serious squick factor.

[AdminAssistant]

I don't care for performance/visual artists who do things with their bodily fluids, or nudity for that matter, because 9 times out of 10 it's a person trying to be edgier, more out there, and more "artistic" than the last guy. (I can't stand performance art for this reason - it's usually just someone desperate for attention. "Hey, look at me! I'm naked! I have a message! And I'm naked!!!")

However, there really is not a hygiene factor. People do not touch, lick, or in any way come into physical contact with paintings. And the kind of gallery that would house such art would not be a place popular with children. Even if we don't care for the medium, art is art is art.

[the_std]

You keep saying it's disgusting. I want to know why it's disgusting. I want to know if you have a reason beyond just "ew, that's gross", because there is no reason to think that. Your hypothetical situations about children licking paintings and people touching paintings are so slim that's it's pretty much not worth considering. Galleries either physically keep people from contact with the art, or the kind of art that would contain bodily fluids are, like AA pointed out, not available to the general public. Plus, like I said, many ingredients to regular paint and painting materials are toxic and hazardous as well, generally far more so than human blood. Do we stop people from using them?

If your sole reason is the gut reaction of "ick", then that's fine. Admit that. But saying it's disgusting for almost any other reason without proof besides supremely marginal chances of biohazard is not really valid debate.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Why isn't "ick" a reasonable reason? You might, for example, say that spiders are "ick". I might disagree, but wouldn't say that your opinion wasn't reasonable.

For the record, blood does not squick me out, personally; seeing as I self harmed for years, it wouldn't. I just don't see why people feel the need to paint with it.

[the_std]

Why isn't "ick" a reasonable reason? You might, for example, say that spiders are "ick". I might disagree, but wouldn't say that your opinion wasn't reasonable.

If your sole reason is the gut reaction of "ick", then that's fine. Admit that. But saying it's disgusting for almost any other reason without proof besides supremely marginal chances of biohazard is not really valid debate.

It's fine for "ick" to be your reason. All I'm asking for is the admission that that's your reason, rather than trying to rationalize it away. For people who have other reasons, I want an explanation, not "because I say so". That is not debate.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I wasn't trying to rationlise it; you just said that people don't lick paintings, and I told you that wasn't necessarily true. We all know too that people might be told not to do things, but do them anyway.

Ick is my personal reason; just the same as it would be if someone painted a picture with shit, or made a semen smoothie. Body fluids are not for consumption or for using in fine art, and that's my opinion. As for the other people, you'll have to wait til they reply before getting their reasoning.

[Amanita]

I actually have a book on Urban Paganism, which talks about making offerings of one's own blood. The authors state that they are not fans of the practice, but if people are going to do it, then they want these people to do it safely. They reccomend using a sterile needle to draw a few drops of blood (like a diabetic getting a test sample), and placing the drops on a cloth, then putting said cloth in the microwave just long enough to kill anything that might be in it.

I imagine there are other ways to make the stuff "safe" as well- Sealing it with some sort of topcoat, or using something else that will kill any germs.

Now, as far as shock value, art, and the like are concerned, this is something I've recently thought about. IMHO, there is a difference between doing something JUST to be shocking or provocative, and doing something because you have an actual statement to make, even though the act may be seen as shocking or provocative to some.
Unfortunately it's easy to confuse the two. I've been accused of shit-stirring because of some of my ideas, when I had no intention of doing such. I've been accused of stating certain things just to be provocative, when that was not my intent at all. (I mentioned that I am Pagan, when stating why I would not be comfortable praying to my dieties in a Christian church)

[HYHYBT]

That's it: If you're making people uncomfortable because it's necessary to get your message across, that's fine. If you're doing it solely for the purpose of making people uncomfortable, that's wrong.