Of bogus sexual harassment claims and a collage degree myth (long)

[HEMI6point1]

Don't want to make two threads so I'll just lump them into one and broke it up into two parts....

The tales of bogus SH claims:

One day while at work, a co-worker and I started talking about sexual harassment claims and the legitimacy of them. I told him that I read that 50% of them are thrown out for "lack of merit." He didn't believe me, so I told him to look it up. And he did, and he told me I was right.

See, a lot of people call me sexist for this but many women file sexual harassment claims for the dumbest things. These frivolous complaints make it tough for the legit complaints to go through, which is pretty crappy IMO.

Here are stories of women who filed sexual harassment complaints on men which were later tossed out but not before the guys accused got fired. These were from various TV talk show segments (some local, some national). Here's the stories (and no they were not NOW members, LOL):

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1. Woman worked at a place that I guess had casual Thursdays and Fridays. One man took a liking to her and complimented her on her appearance and looks ie: You look pretty/nice today etc.

Woman said she didn't think anything of it until she noticed he only complimented her if she wore something sleeveless and/or low-cut. So she filed a sexual harassment complaint because "he only noticed me when I was showing skin and it started to make me uncomfortable."

Host of said show basically asked what everybody in the room was thinking, "Do you honestly expect any heterosexual man to compliment you when you're completely covered up on the other days? You were basically complaining on a male for being.... male."

Woman then said, "Yeah every one of my girlfriends basically said the same thing. And while none of my other male co-workers complimented me as much as he did, they all did the same thing pretty much. I felt kind bad afterwords so I tried to have it retracted."

HEMI's take: Gee, 'Ya think?! They interviewed the man and he said it's been tough finding work because the job he got fired from listed the reason for termination as SH even though the original complaint was dropped.

ETA: I personally have no problem with telling a female CW if she looks pretty. No one complains.

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2. Woman was always being told she had the figure to go into modeling by various people (mostly men, probably). She mentioned it in passing to a male co-worker who then said on his off days he's a photographer, and one of the things he shoots is glamour shots of models. He offers her a session to shoot some test shots on her day off and gives him the website address to his portfolio.

Well the woman checked it out, and in her words "was horrified, there was mostly topless and nude women!" When she next saw him she said, "you pervert, how dare you suggest I show my tits for your damn camera?!" Man says to her, "What do you think glamour photography is? It's tasteful shots from lingerie up to nude." Well the woman complained to the head office and the man got the axe.

The host asked her, "And what if he took those pictures and they got noticed by a modeling agency and they wanted to hire you?"

Woman said, "Look if I wanted to take naked pictures of myself and send them in I would have already done so. I don't need some guy asking me to strip off in front of him."

HEMI's take: When a woman refers to glamour shots as "naked pictures" then it proves how clueless she is about the modeling industry. :rolleyes: Oh, and the guy that got fired? First, all he was going to do was casual (jeans and tank top) pictures of her, hardly "naked." After he was axed, he decided to concentrate on his photography full-time, where his work was noticed and he got offered a gig for a major magazine. :D

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3. Woman said a man asked her out on a date after finding out she was single. Woman said, "I have plans so I'm going to have to pass." Man says "Well let me know when you don't have any more plans."

Well she cried sexual harassment because - get this - she was offended because according to her she was way out of his league and he should have known better.

The guy got fired because of the office's "zero tolerance" rule.

The host of the show asked her, "Haven't you heard of 'can't blame a guy for trying'? And what was so bad about him asking you out on a simple date?"

The woman said, "I know, but he was fugly! I lodged the complaint because he needed to know that when you can only afford to buy McDonald's you don't go for Filet Mignon." She also mentioned that many of her colleagues were pissed at her because her actions cost the company one of their best employees.

The host showed a picture of the man - who by now found a better job - and his girlfriend who was beautiful. The look on her face was priceless.

HEMI's take: Getting a man fired because you think you're too hot for him is just low, simple as that. :mad: And I would think the same thing too if the genders were reversed.

[HEMI6point1]

College degree myth: under pressure

One of my co-workers brought this up. He said he was talking to a friend of his who is an HR head for a company. He asked his HR friend, "let's say two people apply for the same position. One guy has no collage degree but has 6 major certifications, has both tech support and field experience plus customer service experience so he would need very little training. The other guy has 1 very minor certification, very little experience and has a basically basket-weaving degree from a well-known school. Who would you hire?"

His HR friend says he would pick the guy with the degree, even though the other guy is much more qualified. When asked why, the HR guy said "By having a degree he shows he is able to handle pressure and/or challenges well. You can always train. With the other guy, he’s qualified on paper but what happens if he is faced with a tough situation or deadline? He’s more likely to be like, ‘forget this shit’ and quit."

I told him his friend is way off and downright insulting. Why? Having a collage degree doesn’t mean you’re smart and can handle pressure, and not having one doesn’t mean you’re dumb and will crack under pressure.

I let him know something: Some people just aren’t test takers. To which my co-worker said, “The people who spout off that line are usually lazy.” BS, some people I know aren’t “test takers” and they have found great jobs.

Another thing is that some people (like myself) don’t want to sign up to get a degree in – for example – electrical engineering (something I would like to do) and then have to write term papers on George Washington and William Shakespear as well. I can understand having math courses, but what does the other stuff have to do with electrical engineering?

I understand one can go to a reputable technical school like Devry and they cut out all the bullshit, but they charge extra due to the convenience of getting right down to the meat of what you’re trying to learn. :(

I have talked to people who have degrees and they can’t find work, because prospective employers tell them they’re “overqualified.” Then when someone comes along that doesn’t have a degree, they brush them off. Silly, huh?

HEMI’s take: It’s pretty sad when employers brush off good candidates just because they don’t have what amounts to many times a $60,000 piece of paper (Can anyone say liberal arts? Haha). The myth that people without degrees can’t handle pressure or difficult situations is crap, and no matter how much training a job can give nothing beats real-world experience. If these people were to give these candidates a chance, they might be pleasantly surprised.

[AdminAssistant]

Well the woman checked it out, and in her words "was horrified, there was mostly topless and nude women!" When she next saw him she said, "you pervert, how dare you suggest I show my tits for your damn camera?!" Man says to her, "What do you think glamour photography is? It's tasteful shots from lingerie up to nude." Well the woman complained to the head office and the man got the axe.

The host asked her, "And what if he took those pictures and they got noticed by a modeling agency and they wanted to hire you?"

Woman said, "Look if I wanted to take naked pictures of myself and send them in I would have already done so. I don't need some guy asking me to strip off in front of him."

HEMI's take: When a woman refers to glamour shots as "naked pictures" then it proves how clueless she is about the modeling industry. :rolleyes: Oh, and the guy that got fired? After he was axed, he decided to concentrate on his photography full-time, where his work was noticed and he got offered a gig for a major magazine. :D

When I hear the word "glamour shots" I think of those really overdone photos they used to do in the mall. Anybody else know what I'm talking about? At any rate, asking a co-worker to pose for partially or fully nude pictures is completely unprofessional.

Collage degree myth: under pressure

You mean, I can get a degree in how to artfully cut out pictures and assemble them on postboard? Exciting!

I let him know something: Some people just aren’t test takers. To which my co-worker said, “The people who spout off that line are usually lazy.” BS, some people I know aren’t “test takers” and they have found great jobs.

Y'know...tests aren't going away. I hate standardized tests. Hate them. However, I knew that my educational future rested on the results of a test (the ACT) so I took a damn class, practiced, and got it out of the way. I hate that a select few individuals are wanting us to turn our educational system on its head because they "can't take tests." Testing is a crucial part of the process, since that's the only way to prove that a student has acquired necessary learning.

Another thing is that some people (like myself) don’t want to sign up to get a degree in – for example – electrical engineering (something I would like to do) and then have to write term papers on George Washington and William Shakespear as well. I can understand having math courses, but what does the other stuff have to do with electrical engineering?

I understand one can go to a reputable technical school like Devry and they cut out all the bullshit, but they charge extra due to the convenience of getting right down to the meat of what you’re trying to learn. :(

I didn't want to take physics or college algebra or biology. But, that's what you have to do to get a bachelor's degree. :shrug:

I would not call DeVry "reputable." Then again, I am highly suspicious of all of the for-profit schools that offer certificates instead of actual degrees.


(Can anyone say liberal arts? Haha).

Gosh, you mean, all of my friends that went and got arts degrees wasted our time? Oh no! I guess that I better call all of my friends that are lawyers, graphic designers, working actors, producers, arts administrators, stage managers, directors, or otherwise working professionals that we all wasted our time on a $60,000 piece of paper, and that we didn't gain any life skills that have helped us get into the profession of our choice.

[HEMI6point1]

When I hear the word "glamour shots" I think of those really overdone photos they used to do in the mall. Anybody else know what I'm talking about? At any rate, asking a co-worker to pose for partially or fully nude pictures is completely unprofessional.

Um, the man offered the woman an opportunity to have some test shots done. Doesn't mean she has to go nude or even show boobage. Glamour modeling can be tasteful posing in anything from jeans and a tank top to nightgowns, lingerie (slips, bras etcs) to full topless and nude. The woman I referenced jumped to conclusions and thought "Oh no he wants me to get my tits out!" even though he meant something casual (tank top and jeans shots), something I forgot to mention in my OP. I have since corrected it.

You mean, I can get a degree in how to artfully cut out pictures and assemble them on postboard? Exciting!

So I made a typo. The horror! :rolleyes: And I fixed it anyway.

Y'know...tests aren't going away. I hate standardized tests. Hate them. However, I knew that my educational future rested on the results of a test (the ACT) so I took a damn class, practiced, and got it out of the way. I hate that a select few individuals are wanting us to turn our educational system on its head because they "can't take tests." Testing is a crucial part of the process, since that's the only way to prove that a student has acquired necessary learning.

I agree with you on this, except that I don't think people want to turn our educational system on it's head because they're not good at taking tests.

If I studied hard and took a test I personally feel I would do good as well.

I didn't want to take physics or college algebra or biology. But, that's what you have to do to get a bachelor's degree. :shrug:

I would not call DeVry "reputable." Then again, I am highly suspicious of all of the for-profit schools that offer certificates instead of actual degrees.

Devry gives you a legit bachelor's degree once you graduate. I know some people that went there and now they're in great jobs. You have to be careful though, I almost went to sign up for ITT until I discovered they're garbage.

Gosh, you mean, all of my friends that went and got arts degrees wasted our time? Oh no! I guess that I better call all of my friends that are lawyers, graphic designers, working actors, producers, arts administrators, stage managers, directors, or otherwise working professionals that we all wasted our time on a $60,000 piece of paper, and that we didn't gain any life skills that have helped us get into the profession of our choice.

Can't say about your friends (after all, I don't know them) but take a look at all the articles from the past 2 years that almost all say that a liberal arts degree is not worth the money compared to an engineering degree....

[AdminAssistant]

Can't say about your friends (after all, I don't know them) but take a look at all the articles from the past 2 years that almost all say that a liberal arts degree is not worth the money compared to an engineering degree....

Ah, now money is slightly different. No, I will never make as much money as someone with an engineering or chemistry degree. However, I can get a job in my field, and I will be much happier than if I had gotten a degree in something more "practical" but that I hated. This is, obviously, a sore spot with me. A liberal arts degree can be very practical; it just depends on what you want to do with it.

[HEMI6point1]

Ah, now money is slightly different. No, I will never make as much money as someone with an engineering or chemistry degree. However, I can get a job in my field, and I will be much happier than if I had gotten a degree in something more "practical" but that I hated. This is, obviously, a sore spot with me. A liberal arts degree can be very practical; it just depends on what you want to do with it.

Well, another thing to think about is people try to get any degree (even if it's classified as a basket-weaver) because they hear articles that say, "It doesn't matter what degree you have as long as you have a degree."

That is a very stupid statement because people follow it like it's gospel and wind up with degrees that are are completely useless for the jobs that they are applying for.

One girl at my job is bragging on how she's going to college for a degree in Holocaust Studies. I didn't even know that was a major until she told me. I feel sorry for her because I don't know any job that will consider that outside of history teaching.

The only time those articles are correct, like my OP states, is when companies want documented proof "you are able to handle pressure" and that's what a college degree supposedly shows them. :rolleyes:

[Hobbs]

[B]

(Can anyone say liberal arts? Haha).

I'm a liberal arts major. Know what I'm doing once I graduate? I'm going to be a Space and Missiles officer. Lemme see you do that without a college degree...oh wait, you can't.

[HEMI6point1]

Aren't you in the air force? You already have a leg up in getting a job like that.

Either way, good for you. Not something I would do personally, but if you like it....

[Hobbs]

Aren't you in the air force? You already have a leg up in getting a job like that.

Either way, good for you. Not something I would do personally, but if you like it....
Officers in all branches of the Armed Forces need a college degree.

A leg up...? I got issued the job.

[AdminAssistant]

One girl at my job is bragging on how she's going to college for a degree in Holocaust Studies. I didn't even know that was a major until she told me. I feel sorry for her because I don't know any job that will consider that outside of history teaching.

Actually, Holocaust Studies is a really hot field right now. (There's a scramble to document anything and everything from the few remaining survivors.) One of my professors is about to publish her second book on the subject.

There's nothing wrong with teaching history. However, someone with a Holocaust Studies degree could also work for museums, libraries, or advocacy/remembrance groups. That could be a helpful side major to someone studying any of the social sciences, especially in an historical context. Not everybody is obsessed with getting the best paying job. A lot of us just want to do something that makes us happy.

Besides, who said you had to get a job in the exact field you want to work in? As I previously mentioned, I know many people with a bachelor's in theatre who have gone to law school. Many English majors end up getting a master's in library science. Some people have a bad case of academic burnout and open their own business.

Successfully completing a college degree, especially a post-graduate degree, is really damn difficult. It does show a level of hard work, dedication, and stick-to-it-ness. Trust me, I know.

Oh, and nobody gets a degree in basket-weaving. It's Creative Folk Art, tyvm. :p

[Hobbs]

What AdminAssistant said. My history degree is a bitch.

[BlaqueKatt]

Testing is a crucial part of the process, since that's the only way to prove that a student has acquired necessary learning.

no, just no-all it proves is that you can memorize answers/facts and regurgitate them on command-it does not prove you "learned" anything

this article (http://www.fairtest.org/measuring-learning-does-not-improve-learning) is for grade school children but it still holds true for college level-as they still use standardized multiple choice tests. All that proves is you can memorize, can you use that knowledge? If not you didn't learn anything.

"The two primary problems with U.S. students' learning are not addressed. First, international and national studies have shown that U.S. students in general do not do well at analysis, synthesis, evaluation, application of knowledge or problem-solving -- that is, at real thinking in subject areas"

"More importantly, if students do not learn how to use algebra to solve problems, but just memorize formulas they may soon forget, then the tests will not support truly high standards."

this one (http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/01/26/banta) is about college testing.

"We conclude that standardized tests of generic intellectual skills do not provide valid evidence of institutional differences in the quality of education provided to students. "

Measuring learning outcomes in higher education
(http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RD_Connections10.pdf)
recommends...standardized multiple choice tests-yup that shows you know how to apply what you've learned and not just memorized a bunch of crap to spew back onto paper.....:rolleyes:

[Hobbs]

May I see your credentials in education then, Miss Blaquecatt, or can you only spout other people's research? As the brother of an educator, I can pretty much tell you that testing is a valid diagnostic tool for a person's learning.

[Rapscallion]

May I see your credentials in education then, Miss Blaquecatt, or can you only spout other people's research? As the brother of an educator,

Anyone got a spare irony meter? Mine just broke.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

I didn't say that standardized testing was fantastic, but it is a fact of life. Learning how to take tests (i.e. working the system) isn't such a bad thing. I had to pay, what, $250 for my ACT class? And spent...6 weeks doing that over a summer? The score I got as a result paid for 4 years of tuition, fees, room, and board with a stipend.

No, I hear people complain about testing of all types. I'm sorry, but we have to give some kind of test, whether it is subjective (short answer/essay) or objective (multiple choice, true/false, fill in the blank). Yet, every time we start preparing for mid-terms or finals, we get the chorus, "It's not fair that so much of our grade is based on the test. I'm just not a good test taker!" There are tons of classes on test prep. All of us hold 2-3 office hours a week, usually more before a midterm or final. We all make ourselves available to help students. You can even go through the disability office and request to take the test elsewhere with extra time. But very few take that initiative. It's frustrating to be expected to cater to 30 special snowflakes who think that everything in the class should revolve around them.

[Hobbs]

Anyone got a spare irony meter? Mine just broke.

Rapscallion
What's that supposed to mean?

[Rapscallion]

Well, this is funny, see? You said that unless Blaquekatt was able to produce qualifications, then she was only able to rely on other peoples' research. In that way, you attempted to demean her position in this debate.

Your next sentence, and this is the funny bit, is where you attempted to gain authority in the debate by citing the fact that your brother is an educator, not yourself, which is exactly the nub of your previous argument against Blaquekatt.

Quite risible.

Rapscallion

[Hobbs]

Risible? Stop making up words.

I was an education major, if that helps. I cut it out from my courses when I needed to graduate sooner.

Still doesn't invalidate what I said.

[Rapscallion]

Risible? Stop making up words.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+risible&meta=&rlz=

I was an education major, if that helps.

Ah, but you cited your brother. That caused me much mirth.

Rapscallion

[Hobbs]

I still say you made that up.

[HEMI6point1]

Back on the topic of SH, when I told that story of the women who got photographer guy and compliment guy fired to a co-worker, he said what I thought but didn't bother saying: "The women probably thought they were fugly."

This video is an SNL skit featuring Tom Brady (NFL player, for those that don't know): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY

I know it's supposed to by a comedy skit, but sadly it rings true: Many times the difference between a sexual harassment complaint and a date / photoshoot / whatever is looking unattractive and looking like.... Tom Brady.

[fireheart17]

Steering this back on-topic.

I do agree 100% on the sexual harassment claims. There's one case I can recall from my old store where one of the guys sexually harrassed quite a few of my coworkers (nearly every female his age). Nobody reported him. Or I should say, I asked him to back off and I got in trouble (this was me, not me on behalf of someone).

Regarding the college degree myth, the area I'm going for-teaching-DOES require that you have a Bachelor's Degree in teaching, MINIMUM. Most federal government jobs also require a Bachelor's Degree and while it's preferable to have one in the field you're going into (some of the finance ones actually do require an accounting degree), it doesn't matter if you don't-you have full training.

From reading the posts, I think I definitely prefer the way things are done down here-all the degrees offered at the universities focus PURELY on the stuff you need. Bachelor of Arts is the exception-you pick a major, and then a minor, and study those for three years. You can do a bunch of other stuff for electives, but aside from the requirements for your major and minor (i.e. you study Criminology, you're required to take a class on the Justice System) you have free rein. Some courses do require that you take core topics-for instance if you're studying nanotechnology, you're required to also study chemistry and physics.

[Plaidman]

I can see the second one being SH.

We don't know how he said he did shots.

Did he drool while he did it while lookin up and down her?

Did all he have on his website were naked girls?

If someone is told they do photo shots, (WITHOUT stating that he will do it with her in full clothes) and gives her a website, and she goes there, and they are all naked, then yeah. I can see why she would put two and two together of him wanting to see her naked even if he is a professonal.

[HEMI6point1]

Steering this back on-topic.

I do agree 100% on the sexual harassment claims. There's one case I can recall from my old store where one of the guys sexually harrassed quite a few of my coworkers (nearly every female his age). Nobody reported him. Or I should say, I asked him to back off and I got in trouble (this was me, not me on behalf of someone).

From reading the posts, I think I definitely prefer the way things are done down here-all the degrees offered at the universities focus PURELY on the stuff you need. Bachelor of Arts is the exception-you pick a major, and then a minor, and study those for three years. You can do a bunch of other stuff for electives, but aside from the requirements for your major and minor (i.e. you study Criminology, you're required to take a class on the Justice System) you have free rein. Some courses do require that you take core topics-for instance if you're studying nanotechnology, you're required to also study chemistry and physics.

So you would lodge an SH complaint on a guy for telling you that you look nice, for offering to take some test shots in casualwear, and asking you out for coffee because he knows you're single? Wow. I'm sorry but that's just sad. :(

However, I do agree with the way your country does college. If the American college system were like that, there would be a lot more enrollments.

I can see the second one being SH.

We don't know how he said he did shots.

Did he drool while he did it while lookin up and down her?

Did all he have on his website were naked girls?

If someone is told they do photo shots, (WITHOUT stating that he will do it with her in full clothes) and gives her a website, and she goes there, and they are all naked, then yeah. I can see why she would put two and two together of him wanting to see her naked even if he is a professonal.

This photographer reportedly had a range of model shots, ranging from casualwear (tank top / jeans, for example) to nightwear/lingerie to some artistic nudes. I think he did mention the shots would be clothed and she just jumped to conclusions, like I said earlier.

And as any professional glamour photographer will tell you, if you drool you'll be considered a pervert with a camera and no one will want to work with you. On the forum on a glamour website, one of the members (not me) asked a question to the photographers: "What the hell happens when you're taking pictures of a model, and she's so hot you just become overwhelmed?"

He replied, "While this is considered a dream job for just about any hetero male - myself included - you have to remember that you are not on a date. The model is not on a date. You are here to conduct business. The model is not expecting you to turn asexual around her, but don't make it obvious around her. All it takes is one wrong girl to complaint about you and it's all over. I knew some friends that had tried to become glamour photographers and they just couldn't handle it."

[Kimmik]

Risible? Stop making up words.

I was an education major, if that helps. I cut it out from my courses when I needed to graduate sooner.

Still doesn't invalidate what I said.

To qoute Websters Dictionary

Main Entry: ris·i·ble
Pronunciation: \ˈri-zə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin risibilis, from Latin risus, past participle of ridēre to laugh
Date: 1557

1 a : capable of laughing b : disposed to laugh
2 : arousing or provoking laughter; especially : laughable
3 : associated with, relating to, or used in laughter <risible muscles>

— ris·i·bly \-blē\ adverb

Now on the topic of sexual harassment the problem is it means different things to different people.. I like Admin would have thought the glamor shots that were all the rage in the late 80's and 90's. If the gentleman had given me his web addy and I saw the others I would have also thought it was his way of being sexual to me. Now if he said what he did and how he was thinking of shooting me... and said here is my web site there are a few risque poses but it will show you the quality of my work.. That wouldnt have even been close to harassment.

By the way this is the stupidest comment I have ever seen. Host of said show basically asked what everybody in the room was thinking, "Do you honestly expect any heterosexual man to compliment you when you're completely covered up on the other days? You were basically complaining on a male for being.... male."

So if I show skin then I am worthy of a males compliment but if not... That is the very essence of harassment. Only finding her pleasing to the eye the less she wears that has nothing to do with being male and everything to do with being sexist.

[Plaidman]

By the way this is the stupidest comment I have ever seen.

So if I show skin then I am worthy of a males compliment but if not... That is the very essence of harassment. Only finding her pleasing to the eye the less she wears that has nothing to do with being male and everything to do with being sexist.

Are you that shocked? You should read some of the other stuff. Including my personal fave in the degrading mag, if a women is ugly, he WILL call them on it.


His opinions on women are very low judging from all his posts.

[KnitShoni]

As sort of an answer to the host's question: Yes. I DO expect heterosexual men to compliment a woman who is completely covered. That may just be because I see it happen a lot, and it happens to me a lot, so to encounter a man who ONLY compliments women when they're showing skin would seem strange to me.

[HEMI6point1]

Now on the topic of sexual harassment the problem is it means different things to different people.. I like Admin would have thought the glamor shots that were all the rage in the late 80's and 90's. If the gentleman had given me his web addy and I saw the others I would have also thought it was his way of being sexual to me. Now if he said what he did and how he was thinking of shooting me... and said here is my web site there are a few risque poses but it will show you the quality of my work.. That wouldnt have even been close to harassment.

By the way this is the stupidest comment I have ever seen.

So if I show skin then I am worthy of a males compliment but if not... That is the very essence of harassment. Only finding her pleasing to the eye the less she wears that has nothing to do with being male and everything to do with being sexist.

As far as the photographer, I don't remember exactly if he mentioned the risque shots but I'm sure he did. I don't think any photographer would give a prospective client his web address without informing her that there might be "objectionable" material on the site. Unless of course they're in the UK where nudity is treated as no big deal.

As far as the man who got axed for paying the woman compliments on the casual days: I can greatly assume (with all the dangers of assuming) that his job there was like mine. On my job, they changed the dress code where women can wear the company-issued collared polo or wear something casual of your own as long as it's not indecent (Although "not indecent" has a different meaning to some people. Not that I'm complaining.). Trust me, the company-issued polos are HORRIBLE. No one looks good in them. Even Heidi Klum wouldn't look good in the them. Therefore, I'm not going to compliment someone for wearing it. I'll save my compliment for when they're wearing something that actually looks, you know, worth pointing out.

[Plaidman]

As far as the photographer, I don't remember exactly if he mentioned the risque shots but I'm sure he did. I don't think any photographer would give a prospective client his web address without informing her that there might be "objectionable" material on the site. Unless of course they're in the UK where nudity is treated as no big deal.



So, you don't even know what country it happens, but your automatically taken the male side. Not too shocking there, but why don't you find all the sides, before you automatically go oh that women just wants to take males down cause she's a female and doesn't like men.

[KnitShoni]

As far as the man who got axed for paying the woman compliments on the casual days: I can greatly assume (with all the dangers of assuming) that his job there was like mine. On my job, they changed the dress code where women can wear the company-issued collared polo or wear something casual of your own as long as it's not indecent (Although "not indecent" has a different meaning to some people. Not that I'm complaining.). Trust me, the company-issued polos are HORRIBLE. No one looks good in them. Even Heidi Klum wouldn't look good in the them. Therefore, I'm not going to compliment someone for wearing it. I'll save my compliment for when they're wearing something that actually looks, you know, worth pointing out.

But, as you yourself said, you are just assuming. And, there are men who will compliment women in "horrible looking" polos. There is more to looking nice than the style of clothing.

[HEMI6point1]

Are you that shocked? You should read some of the other stuff. Including my personal fave in the degrading mag, if a women is ugly, he WILL call them on it.


His opinions on women are very low judging from all his posts.

Are you kidding me? I love women to death. There's a reason why they're known as "the fairer sex." :p

I was not thinking when I posted that comment about calling people out. If I don't think a woman is attractive, I'll say "She's not my cup of tea."

As sort of an answer to the host's question: Yes. I DO expect heterosexual men to compliment a woman who is completely covered. That may just be because I see it happen a lot, and it happens to me a lot, so to encounter a man who ONLY compliments women when they're showing skin would seem strange to me.

Read my answer to Kimmik's post. The man in my OP's job was probably like mine, company-issued or required stuffy shirts that wouldn't look good on anybody.

I have complimented female co-workers that were dressed in their own clothes.... and covered up.

[HEMI6point1]

So, you don't even know what country it happens, but your automatically taken the male side. Not too shocking there, but why don't you find all the sides, before you automatically go oh that women just wants to take males down cause she's a female and doesn't like men.

The photographer incident happened in the US. I'm just pointing out that in the UK, nudity is not a big deal. If said photog was in the UK, he would probably still be working at that job.

[Dreamstalker]

On the degree/tests subject:

My beef with the standardized tests is just that; they're standardized. Not everyone is good at rote memorization which is what most of them require. I'm not saying that all multiple-choice tests are bad; I do fine on the CompTIA and associated tests because I know and love the material. A lot of people seem to be wired such that if they're not interested in the material (some/most of which is relatively trivial, never to be used again) they just can't invest themselves to memorize it.
I almost went to sign up for ITT until I discovered they're garbage.

When the ex heard I was going into computers all-out (my bachelors is in CS, but the school is technically a liberal arts school so the degree track was fairly basic), he suggested ITT.

A local community college has a certificate program in what I want (highly recommended by a contact in the Treasury Dept who lectures for it) so my plan is to do that in the fall.

[HEMI6point1]

When the ex heard I was going into computers all-out (my bachelors is in CS, but the school is technically a liberal arts school so the degree track was fairly basic), he suggested ITT.

I almost made that mistake. Google ITT complaints and you'll see what I mean.

A co-worker heard me talking about ITT. He said they'll pass people even when they don't show up. One of the complaints I saw online mirrored that - the guy forgot to turn in an assignment but got an A anyway when he looked at the online grading system. He decided to intentionally not turn in the next one - he got a B on it.

From what I read and talked to people, an ITT degree is not worth the paper it's printed on. A Devry degree is at least worth something.

[Rageaholic]

I think this would have been better as two seperate threads seeing as these are two seperate topics.



I let him know something: Some people just aren’t test takers. To which my co-worker said, “The people who spout off that line are usually lazy.” BS, some people I know aren’t “test takers” and they have found great jobs.

People like that piss me off! :mad: I've come to the belief that everyone has their own strengths as well as their weaknesses. I know this because I have learning difficulties which make it difficult for me to comprehend certain things (don't get me started on textbooks). For those things, it takes me twice as long to understand them, so I'll be damned if I get called "lazy" for having difficulties with things.

Another thing is that some people (like myself) don’t want to sign up to get a degree in – for example – electrical engineering (something I would like to do) and then have to write term papers on George Washington and William Shakespear as well. I can understand having math courses, but what does the other stuff have to do with electrical engineering?

Man don't get me started. This is such a sour topic for me that I started TWO different threads on it in "things I hate". Yeah, years of grade school isn't enough for this general education crap. HALF of my bachlors degree is general education. I have to take 6 credit hours (2 courses) in religious studies, which also requires a prerequisit of cultural anthropology. I HATE ANTHROPOLOGY!! I could start an entirely different thread on why anthropology sucks. I don't having anything against anyone majoring in anthropology. If that's what they want to do, all the more power to them, but don't make me take it when I'm not interested in it and have already decided what I want to major in. If I absolutely have to take it, than one course should suffice, but I shouldn't have to take 3 when I'm majoring in accounting. (and just because I might learn some useful stuff in those courses doesn't mean I should HAVE to take them to get a degree. I should get to decide that for myself. Some Gen Ed is good, but there is a time when it's overkill)

[Red Panda]

As far as that woman who only got complimented when she showed skin, I highly doubt her claim. Are we suppose to believe she remembers what she was wearing for months on end and what compliments she recieved? The only way I could see that happening is if everything she wore showed skin except for company clothes and then the guy probably complimented her just because she wasn't wearing the normal uniform.

Sexual harrassment can be a problem if you get raped or groped or something but there are too many woman who need to grow a thicker skin and not cry sexual harrassment everytime a guy says they look nice

[HEMI6point1]

As far as that woman who only got complimented when she showed skin, I highly doubt her claim. Are we suppose to believe she remembers what she was wearing for months on end and what compliments she recieved? The only way I could see that happening is if everything she wore showed skin except for company clothes and then the guy probably complimented her just because she wasn't wearing the normal uniform.

+1. At my job when a female co-worker decides to ditch the horrible polo, I'll pay a compliment on it.

Which brings up what you said next....

Sexual harrassment can be a problem if you get raped or groped or something but there are too many woman who need to grow a thicker skin and not cry sexual harrassment everytime a guy says they look nice

There is a difference between "You look nice/pretty today" and "that top really brings out your boobs, good job." The first one is innocent, the second one is most certainly harassment. Same if a boss says to a woman "If you want the job you better have sex with me," or if a guy makes a habit of brushing against a woman's chest and uses the excuse of "not enough walkway space." (Yes that actually happened and yes the guy actually used that excuse)

When I was in NY there was a case were a woman tried to sue her boss for SH. What did he do wrong? Apparently, the man's son came in to his work one day to visit him, saw this woman and was smitten. Son told his father, who then tells the women his son is interested in her. Woman responds by launching an SH complaint stating "it put her in an uncomfortable position." :confused: It was later dropped when one of her colleagues revealed that she told her, "There is no way I would even think about going out with his dork of a son." Nice girl, huh? :rolleyes: Who knows, he could have been her future husband....

It just makes it harder for the women who have legit complaints to come forward, when BS like this makes the rounds. :mad:

[jackfaire]

On bogus sexual harrassments; in the book "Same Difference" they documented a sexual harrassment case where the man was fired.


What happened? Company had two managers one of whom was the best and had the best team going so they asked him to observe another manager, their worst with the worst team performance, and advise her on what she could improve.

Well he was a nice guy who had a relationship with his employees but got stern when he had to. She was mean to her employees all the time.

He said, "Well you could be nice."

She filed a sexual harrassment claim stating, "When he said that I know he really meant I should sleep with him."

Apparently that company hires psychics.


When I was in NY there was a case were a woman tried to sue her boss for SH. What did he do wrong? Apparently, the man's son came in to his work one day to visit him, saw this woman and was smitten. Son told his father, who then tells the women his son is interested in her.


I dont' care if she thought he was the hottest guy ever. It was a legit complaint. Your coworker saying hey my (relative) is interested in you is innocent.

Your boss or any other person that has power over your job saying, Hey my (relative) is interested in you always comes off as a veiled, date them or your fired, threat.

Really there was no reason for the boss to tell her that his son was interested in her unless she had already expressed interest in his son and asked.

I really hope the fact that she thought the guy was a dork was not the reason the claim was thrown out because that is the worst reason ever.

Can you imagine not being allowed to say, "The guy creeps me out," or anything that shows you have a negative view of him for fear that the complaint would be dropped.

[kibbles]

When I was in NY there was a case were a woman tried to sue her boss for SH. What did he do wrong? Apparently, the man's son came in to his work one day to visit him, saw this woman and was smitten. Son told his father, who then tells the women his son is interested in her. Woman responds by launching an SH complaint stating "it put her in an uncomfortable position." :confused: It was later dropped when one of her colleagues revealed that she told her, "There is no way I would even think about going out with his dork of a son." Nice girl, huh? :rolleyes: Who knows, he could have been her future husband....

It just makes it harder for the women who have legit complaints to come forward, when BS like this makes the rounds. :mad:

Glad it was thrown out! It would be different if her boss implied her job depended on it, but if it was an innocent remark, then yes she was a false complainer.

[HEMI6point1]

I dont' care if she thought he was the hottest guy ever. It was a legit complaint. Your coworker saying hey my (relative) is interested in you is innocent.

Your boss or any other person that has power over your job saying, Hey my (relative) is interested in you always comes off as a veiled, date them or your fired, threat.

Really there was no reason for the boss to tell her that his son was interested in her unless she had already expressed interest in his son and asked.

I really hope the fact that she thought the guy was a dork was not the reason the claim was thrown out because that is the worst reason ever.

Can you imagine not being allowed to say, "The guy creeps me out," or anything that shows you have a negative view of him for fear that the complaint would be dropped.

I'm sorry but people like you are the reason SH complaints get filed that should have never been filed in the first place. :mad:

There is no difference between a CW or sup saying it, that's just stupid.

The guy who got sued meant it as an innocent conversion, IIRC he even said he never meant it as "date him or you're fired," just wanted to let her know his son was interested.

Any yes her blabbing to her colleague was the reason, you don't go saying the reason you complained was because you were "uncomfortable" then go around and say that the guy was a dork and you wouldn't touch him.

Glad it was thrown out! It would be different if her boss implied her job depended on it, but if it was an innocent remark, then yes she was a false complainer.

As I said above, her boss meant nothing harmful.

[Greenday]

Just a couple fine points:

When you tell a woman, "You look great today!", you are saying her body looks great.

When you tell a woman, "That outfit looks great!", you are complimenting the outfit, not the body.

When you tell a woman, "That outfit looks great on you!", once again, you are complimenting the body.

It's all about how you word it. And some people do not want to feel like people are checking them out all the time.

[muses_nightmare]

"You look great today!"

This just means that the woman in general looks good, it's not necessarily just commenting on her body. Depends on the intonation and such of the person saying it. These things do make a huge difference. There is a huge difference between a tone of voice that is just being friendly and a flirtatious/sexually charged tone of voice. Huge difference.

If someone is offended by a simple casual compliment they have issues. It doesn't make it sexual harassment.

[Greenday]

:shrugs:

While each way compliments something different, just by changing what exactly you are complimenting the result can be drastically different. It's hard to get offended when someone says they like your outfit. People get offended a lot easier when you start talking about their bodies.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Even " X looks good on you" isn't necessarily sex-related either. It may, but it may also simply mean that whatever outfit is being referred to looks better for this person than others and/or compared to alternatives.

Whether or not a comment is intended as a sexual comment can't be derived on words or tone alone. Both can be ambiguous and neither can be relied on solely to determine intent.

IMO comments that are in any way ambiguous as to intent should be something that's brought up, discussed, and addressed. If it's determined to be decisively appropriate or continues to be a problem THEN termination may follow perhaps even warning others about it. As it is, people are getting screwed over for no good reason far too often for my comfort.

[jackfaire]

I'm sorry but people like you are the reason SH complaints get filed that should have never been filed in the first place. :mad:


It's different if your boss is a good friend of yours. I am sorry if my boss came to me and said one of his daughters liked me I would feel like he was pressuring me to date her I mean why else would he even get involved in my personal life enough to tell me that.

I have never seen or had anyone ever say, "Hey this person that is close to me likes you" as innocent conversation. It has always been followed up with, "And since I like the both of you then you two should date"

And yes a woman is less likely to feel uncomfortable about sexual advances that are welcome duh.

It doesn't matter if my boss says something affects my job or not if he starts making veiled remarks which yes "My relative wants to date you" is a veiled remark.

Unless it was followed up by "Laugh isn't that so ridiculous" then yes it is a veiled remark that implies your job somehow hinges on this fact that the boss had no reason or need to tell you. I love my boss but I have never worked for one where a comment like that wouldn't feel like an implication.

And yes if my boss thinks it appropriate to get involved in my personal life then I consider it equally likely that he takes that into account when it comes time for performance reviews.

"Hmmm wouldn't date my daughter so not really a team player now is he"

[Plaidman]

It's always the actions of the few that ruin it for all.

There were people that did say things like you look real good. It's the tone, and you just know that they mean more then a simple compliment, and some women can honestly feel the men undressing them with their eyes (which some guys, in a group, would honestly go Oh yeah, I totally bang that ass man! I wish could do that now man!"

Where do you draw the line? If you go oh it's fine to say you look nice today, you will have the men that drool, sneer and wink at the girls, and just say you look nice today. When confronted, they act butthurt and go "All I said was she looked nice today!"

We've all heard it from customers, so don't act like no-one ever would lie about that.

So best way, to nip it in the bud? Make it illegal to make anything complimantary.

It does go both ways. Women cannot say you look great in those pants, or that shirt is hot on you. (Though many males may like that attention).


As for the girl claiming that boss told her his son was intrested in you, that COULD be considered a threat. Like, date my son or your gone. If you date my son, you better not hurt him or your ass is gone.

That's why these things exist. To just cut it in the bud.

Some people may generally just think they look good today. But your not there. You did not live that women's life. SOme women may have been repeatedly raped by their fathers/mothers/brothers/sisters/Uncles etc etc etc etc that started by You look nice. Not saying all women that claim SH have had that happen, but in their mindview, it's the first thing that is said before being forced to do something.

They may have been played alot in life, by guys (or girls) always going on how great they look, only to fuck them and leave them.

Work is suppose to be safe. (HA! HA HA! Safe like school!), and they should never have to hear any type of remarks if they don't want to hear it. Sure, its a nice thing to hear, but what if they don't want to hear it? Are they suppsoe to just take it? How long do they have to take it, before some people remarks get more and more and more sexual, until its basically them being groped and males defense is "She always let me do it before, why is she bitching now?" (After all, some males think that all SH are just bullshit. Even if the women was tied up, gangraped, videotaped of her crying thrown on the net, and said "Well she shouldn't have looked so hot!! She just doing it for attention! She did it to get them fired! She just jealous of the people there!"

SH Does exist. Not matter what you think otherwise, it does exist.

[KnitShoni]

No one is saying it doesn't exist. People are just pointing out that not everything that gets reported as sexual harassment really is. Kind of like racism. Yes, it exists. Not every case that's purported to be racism actually is.

[Red Panda]

It's always the actions of the few that ruin it for all.

There were people that did say things like you look real good. It's the tone, and you just know that they mean more then a simple compliment, and some women can honestly feel the men undressing them with their eyes (which some guys, in a group, would honestly go Oh yeah, I totally bang that ass man! I wish could do that now man!"


We better just get rid of all compliments. After all, who knows when somebody says that you have a nice car they don't really mean your vagina, or if that the person you are saying made a well informed presentation wasn't raped by their father one time after they made a presentation on why he should stop raping them.

Maybe we should play it safe and ban all talking. When a guy says the copier is broken I know what he really means.

[Plaidman]

Leave it to you to nitpick.

Fine. Take away anything that is complimentary on how one LOOKS in a workplace.

[HEMI6point1]

It's always the actions of the few that ruin it for all.

There were people that did say things like you look real good. It's the tone, and you just know that they mean more then a simple compliment, and some women can honestly feel the men undressing them with their eyes (which some guys, in a group, would honestly go Oh yeah, I totally bang that ass man! I wish could do that now man!"

Where do you draw the line? If you go oh it's fine to say you look nice today, you will have the men that drool, sneer and wink at the girls, and just say you look nice today. When confronted, they act butthurt and go "All I said was she looked nice today!"

Your first paragraph: Although some won't admit it, every straight guy has done the "undress her with his eyes" thing (I called it sex by eyeball in the NOW thread). Hell, even women do it too (though not as often as guys, LOL). It's a natural human thought process. To demonize it as some sort of bad thing or "gross" is wrong. And IMO if a straight man ever tells me he never undresses a woman with his eyes I'll tell him to go to Bed Bath & Beyond and turn in his man card!

Your second paragraph: Yes, some men will take it too far. I would never drool at a woman or sneer at her, but that's just me.

[Plaidman]

Although some won't admit it, every straight guy has done the "undress her with his eyes" thing. It's a natural human thought process. To demonize it as some sort of bad thing or "gross" is wrong.

Your second paragraph: Yes, some men will take it too far. I would never drool at a woman or sneer at her, but that's just me.

I never said it was a bad thing. But don't make it obvious. Alot do. It can make some women uncomfortable. I've had coworkers that did that. They stare right at another coworker chest and greet them, saying how nice they looked. Coworker told manager (Another woman). Manager told higher ups. HR got involved. Couldn't fire the guy for SH, because all he did was say how nice another girl looked. This is why SH exists to protect. Why should the woman just /take/ it as some people suggested, because all he is doing is /complimenting/ her. No. It's more then that.

Do some women take it too far? Yeah. That is possible. But more often then not, it's exactly how it was stated. If you make it so it you cannot file SH on the guy that stares at breasts, and does very erotic facial expressions, but then only says "You look great today!", then what? She just needs to accept the fact that asshole is going to do that, and be protected by not stating "Lets fuck?"

At least that coworker guy did get fired eventally. He was transfered to another store, where he did just grab another coworker's chest (Then claimed that he was just trying to kill the fly that landed on it).


It was the actions of several men that did this. I'm glad it happen. Here is a great way to get around it though. Learn about the women. Be her friend. Compliment her as a friend. I've done that for years. The women know I mean it. But if a girl doesn't know you from jack, and you just randomly run into her at workplace, and then go on how great she looks, that she looks nice, and that is pretty much the only subject you talk about whenever you see her is taht "YOU LOOK HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!", then yeah. Pretty easy to see what your really thinking.

[jackfaire]

Your first paragraph: Although some won't admit it, every straight guy has done the "undress her with his eyes" thing (I called it sex by eyeball in the NOW thread). Hell, even women do it too (though not as often as guys, LOL). It's a natural human thought process. To demonize it as some sort of bad thing or "gross" is wrong. And IMO if a straight man ever tells me he never undresses a woman with his eyes I'll tell him to go to Bed Bath & Beyond and turn in his man card!

Your second paragraph: Yes, some men will take it too far. I would never drool at a woman or sneer at her, but that's just me.


I am going to turn in my human card because I have nothing in common with your species.

[HEMI6point1]

I never said it was a bad thing. But don't make it obvious. Alot do. It can make some women uncomfortable.

At least that coworker guy did get fired eventally. He was transfered to another store, where he did just grab another coworker's chest (Then claimed that he was just trying to kill the fly that landed on it).

I don't make it obvious, I know how to be discrete about it. Like you said however some men don't.

And yeah that guy deserved to be fired. That's what happens when you lose the understanding between fantasy and reality. Kill a fly? LOL!

[protege]

I don't make it obvious, I know how to be discrete about it. Like you said however some men don't.

Yep, there's a big difference between 'checking someone out' and 'undressing them with your eyes.' I readily admit that I do check out the ladies. What can I say, other than it's totally natural. Also, women can be just as bad ;)

[smileyeagle1021]

My favorite example of BS SH was when I worked at the hotel call center. An openly gay guy said to a girl something like "OMG, I love your hair, what is your secret" ... and she thought it was a come on... because you know, all gay guys want to sleep with you. Fortunately the supervisor told her just how stupid her complaint was rather than actually pursuing it.

As far as the tests go for college degrees... while I do like the idea of using more applied assignments like presentations or projects to be the major part of the grade, there is a point where you have to find some way of seeing whether or not there is an understanding of the core principles, and tests are the best way to do that as of yet.

[Plaidman]

My favorite example of BS SH was when I worked at the hotel call center. An openly gay guy said to a girl something like "OMG, I love your hair, what is your secret" ... and she thought it was a come on... because you know, all gay guys want to sleep with you. Fortunately the supervisor told her just how stupid her complaint was rather than actually pursuing it.


I have a great story of a BS SH that is like that. It was an awesome thing to see unfold. I mean, it was epic, and it really blew in that jackass face that started it when lawyers and cops saw through his epic bullshit.


If anyone wants to hear it, I'm willing to share...

[Rapscallion]

Please, me wanty.

Rapscallion

[Plaidman]

XD It was a long time ago. Like ...5 years ago, but I still remember alot of it. Names have been changed to make it easier to write rather then doing what I normally do.


Dwayne was my first manager. He was gay. He was awesome, and he never shouted it out or anything but it was just known he was gay. He was the one that fought the hardest to get me hired, even given examples of when I walked like, two miles to get to another Plaid pantry, just to fill out an application to give to him to give to area manager that was coming in, and that was through the snow!

Anyway, I was eventally sent to another store that needed help. During this time, Dwayne hired Jason who also needed a job. Dwayne thought Jason would be a good worker because he acted alot like me, except far more relaxed. Jason was also homeless, and needing a place to stay. Dwayne did offer his place for a week or so, and only a week. Jason did leave after a week. (IMPORTANT).


Anyway, Halloween came around and Dwayne had assigned Jason to work that shift. Jason refused. Fine. Dwayne got another person to cover it. Thanksgiving comes around. Dwayne assigns Jason to cover it. Jason comes up with some bulllshit excuse that he has to go to New York for family on that day. Fine. Dwayne gets another person, and another worker managed to find Jason drinking at a bar (took photos). Jason later admits he doesn't want to work it. Christmas comes. Again, Jason is assigned, he refuses. Dwayne is losing temper on this but he is a good guy at heart. He tells Jason he has a choice, work Christmas or work new years eve. Jason says he'll work new years eve.

Day before new years eve comes. Dwayne comes in to work day shift and take over for Jason. While Dwayne is counting last nights money/sales in the backroom Jason leaves. Dwayne comes out eventally when a customer wanders into backroom looking for someone. Dwayne sees a nice big notice on the computer from Jason

"I absoutly REFUSE TO WORK NEW YEARS EVE!"

Dwayne had it at that point. He called later, left a message. "Don't worry, you don't have to work New years eve... you don't have to work New years. I'll call you when I need you to work".

So Dwayne just took Jason off the schedule.

Jason thought he was kidding for a week or so, until he realized this might be perment.

Jason calls up HR, saying that Dwayne took him off work for refusing to have sex with him.

Naturally, our lawyer and president of company are involved now. They have to take Dwayne out of store temporay. He swears that never happened, and explains what happened. It is found out that Dwayne let him stay at his house. He admits yes. No, nothing happened. It is frowned upon, and he gets in trouble for that being a manager and all.

Then it gets better. Jason claims that Dwayne would touch him during work. So now they have to look through all the tapes. They saw Dwayne touch Jason ONCE, and that was on the shoulder, because he wouldn't get out of Dwayne way to the register.

Jason stories then start getting very strange. He claims there is a dungeon in Dwayne's house where he was tied up at and whipped. Dwayne offered to show home, but they didn't take it up.

Jason stories to lawyers (both ours and his) and president got wierder and wierder. he claimed one thing, then another, then got dates mixed up.

In the end, he was being tied up and buttraped in the cooler by all the customers for a dollar, his mouth was used as a toilet for Dwayne to piss in at any time, that Dwayne would only let him work on days that he was allowed to suck his dick on (which he was fine with for a while because he was like hey, free bj from a gay man!), and just a huge huge list of just really bad gay sex that no-one took him seriously anymore. Case was dropped. He didn't get his million dollars he was looking for, Dwayne got his old store back.

Naturally though, this made Jason pretty pissed up that no-one belived his lies. He spent his time hassling the coworkers, and one of them snapped and shoved him out the door. Again, Jason threatend to sue if they didn't fire that guy. Knowing he was serious, and the fact that coworker did break policy, he was fired sadily.

Never knew what happened after wards. I think Dwayne's Stepson steped in and did something if rumors are true.

[Boozy]

Holy crap, Plaid. That IS an epic story.

[muses_nightmare]

while I do like the idea of using more applied assignments like presentations or projects to be the major part of the grade, there is a point where you have to find some way of seeing whether or not there is an understanding of the core principles, and tests are the best way to do that as of yet.

Depends on your major. Things like graphic design don't really require tests, we do projects because you can't really show your design skills in a written test. Though for a few classes we did have some written tests, but they were more for the history kind of stuff rather than the actual design stuff.