24-hour curfew in bad Arkansas neighborhood

[IDrinkaRum]

Arkansas Town with a 24-hour curfew in their worst neighborhood (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_us/arkansas_town_curfew)

City Council voted 9-0 to allow police into any part of the city that they feel is a threat. So far, they have arrested 32 people. The ACLU is saying it's unconstitutional. Mayor says people can sue if they like. BTW, 10 of the arrests had felony charges, i.e., drugs & weapons.

[Greenday]

Must be one BAD area to get this. And it's not like it was one person's decision. The city council unanimously voted for the 24-hour curfew. Also, if you have legit business, the cops aren't going to give you more trouble than asking what you're doing. You won't be arrested for going to work. Seems like the only ones that will really have trouble because of this are those committing crimes.

[Flyndaran]

Sooo, if you're innocent then you have need to fear losing your rights?

[Pedersen]

Seems like the only ones that will really have trouble because of this are those committing crimes.

Or anybody who would like to go stargazing.

Or anybody who prefers the night for walking (like me).

I'm sure I can find a few other examples. These are examples of people who can, and will, be harassed while doing nothing illegal other than being outside.

I agree with the motive of the city council. But heavily disagree with their response to the issue.

[Greenday]

Or anybody who would like to go stargazing.

Or anybody who prefers the night for walking (like me).

It doesn't sound like anyone thinks it's even safe enough to do these things so I don't see anyone being bothered for that. I mean, people are sleeping on the floors so they don't get shot by stray bullets. If you don't feel safe sleeping on a bed, there's no way you feel safe strolling the neighborhood.

[Flyndaran]

It doesn't sound like anyone thinks it's even safe enough to do these things so I don't see anyone being bothered for that. I mean, people are sleeping on the floors so they don't get shot by stray bullets. If you don't feel safe sleeping on a bed, there's no way you feel safe strolling the neighborhood.

So I should get harrassed by cops and have my right violated, because most people wouldn't have the guts/idiocy to go outside?
I thought civil liberties weren't a sometime thing.

[Greenday]

So I should get harrassed by cops and have my right violated, because most people wouldn't have the guts/idiocy to go outside?
I thought civil liberties weren't a sometime thing.

Interesting word semantics. You say harassed. I say questioned. One violates rights. The other does not. Based on this article, it only seems that people are asked what they are doing out, and if they have legit business, they are allowed to be on there way. If they are doing something they shouldn't be, then proper action is taken.

[Flyndaran]

Interesting word semantics. You say harassed. I say questioned. One violates rights. The other does not. Based on this article, it only seems that people are asked what they are doing out, and if they have legit business, they are allowed to be on there way. If they are doing something they shouldn't be, then proper action is taken.

It is my right to not talk to anyone on my walks unless given a legitimate reason. Bothering me to defend my RIGHT to walk down a public street is harrassment. The kind of B.S is used as an excuse to harrass minorities all the time.
I don't like big brother in any form.
Semi-OT: Getting questioned by any stranger with a gun and the right to shoot me with near impugnity is stressful for any sane person.

[Pedersen]

Interesting word semantics. You say harassed. I say questioned. One violates rights. The other does not. Based on this article, it only seems that people are asked what they are doing out, and if they have legit business, they are allowed to be on there way. If they are doing something they shouldn't be, then proper action is taken.

Not too much on the semantics side. After all, I'm talking about someone who is walking for the sake of walking. They're not trying to get to a specific location. They're not trying to get something done (other than maybe some exercise).

They're simply walking. Now, what cop will accept that as an answer in a neighborhood like this? Say hello to harassment!

[kibbles]

As far as I'm concerned, at 3 o'clock in the morning, nobody has any business being on the street, except the law," Councilman Eugene "Red" Johnson said. "Anyone out at 3 o'clock shouldn't be out on the street, unless you're going to the hospital."

This has to be the most bone headed quote ever. No one has business being out on the street at 3 in the morning? Ummm..excuse me; but, what gives him the right to say what anyone else has business to do?

[AFPheonix]

They couldn't come up with a better way to police the area than tactics that don't work beyond the short term as evidenced by Iraq and the West Bank? Seriously?

That DA is right. They may be trying to clean up, but this method is not going to be sound in the courts and the council and cops know it. I commend them for trying to fix the problem, but they are going to have to do it the right way, and that includes long-term fixes along with short-term increases in police presence on the beat. All they need to do is to look to how New York has really cleaned up Harlem and other crappy neighborhoods and reduced crime.

[Greenday]

I don't like big brother in any form.

At some point, I do like big brother. If you have nothing to hide, a cop asking you what you are doing is no big deal.

It'd be one thing if it was the Strip in Las Vegas or Times Square in NY. People ordinarily walk around as it is. This town/city sounds like no one goes for walks. People sleep on their floors because they fear getting shot if they are any higher up. The only kinds of places where this happens is where there is tons of crime.

This is an excuse for racism? Please. You know why you don't hear about it happening to middle class suburbs? Because middle class suburbia doesn't have crime problems out of control. If a middle class suburb had uncontrollable crime, they'd do the same thing there. It's all based on where it happens, and because there is no need for it in middle class suburbia, no one sees these kinds of things happening there. They see nothing, and make up all sorts of excuses such as racism for why towns where crime isn't out of control don't take drastic measures like you see in towns where crime is out of control.

[AFPheonix]

I'm sorry, but there are laws regulating what police can do to the public for a reason. It is entirely too easy for a group in authority to abuse that authority, and for the populace to roll over and say, "oh, well they'll only do X if the person deserves it. If they had nothing to hide, they'd be fine" is part of the problem. The police and government work FOR us. They do not rule over us.
Here's a perfect example of why the populace has to be aware of potential police indiscretions. If this can happen to a Mayor of a wealthy town, how much more can it happen to someone that those of us in our insular lives would consider scum?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/07/mayor.warrant/index.html

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=402544
Is an interesting thread over a group of photos by Jacob Holdt. I find it to be germaine to this discussion.

[Sylvia727]

"As far as I'm concerned, at 3 o'clock in the morning, nobody has any business being on the street, except the law,"

Bullshit. I sleep all day and work all night. Just because I don't fit into his narrow view of "acceptable behavior" is no reason to villainize me. If I want to wander the streets at 3 AM, that's my business. Sure, I might get mugged, raped, or killed, but I'm a big girl and I can take big girl risks. It's none of his business what business I'm up to.

If you have nothing to hide, a cop asking you what you are doing is no big deal.

Just because I have nothing to hide doesn't mean I have to show the police my nothing. It's a control issue; the police are trying to control the residents of this neighborhood, which is blatantly unConstitutional.

Also, I'm afraid of cops. Many of them are bullies and thugs. Most of them are not, but I'm not taking my chances. If a cop stops me for no good reason, I'll be anxious. And according to the article, nervous people warrant extra attention. I know I'm innocent, but I don't know that the cop questioning me is, especially if he's operating under the pre-conceived notion that any individual out and about in this neighborhood is a suspicious character.

What a beautifully mucked up state of affairs, where the liberties of all are sacrificed to compensate for the inadequecies of the police.

[Boozy]

Every time I hear someone say "If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't matter", I shudder.

Such an attitude is the death of civil liberties. But I guess that if good, honest people don't speak up because they're afraid of crime, then they don't deserve to be free.

[DesignFox]

Yea, as much as it is horrible to live in a neighborhood with bullets flying, I can't say a 24 hour curfew gives me the warm fuzzies inside...It smacks of big brother. I don't like the sound of that at all.

[tropicsgoddess]

Two words: big brother. Who are they to say that nobody has any business being out at night in 3am?!! For all they know somebody could be coming to or from work doing the graveyard shift. Not only that, but to get pulled over because you're in a bad neighborhood doesn't seem fair to me.

[anriana]

As far as I'm concerned, at 3 o'clock in the morning, nobody has any business being on the street, except the law," Councilman Eugene "Red" Johnson said. "Anyone out at 3 o'clock shouldn't be out on the street, unless you're going to the hospital."


Nevermind the staff at that hospital or the paramedics who took you there and might be taking lunch at 3am, or the restaurant and convenience store workers serving those getting lunch. What a dummie.

[Scamper]

if you have legit business, the cops aren't going to give you more trouble than asking what you're doing. You won't be arrested for going to work. Seems like the only ones that will really have trouble because of this are those committing crimes.

Spoken like a true white man.
I was walking down the street with my friend, a cop stopped us and started questioning us. We hadn't committed any crimes, the cop had no reason to stop us. He just hated my friends' guts. that's Harassment. the one time? maybe not, the several times the cops stopped my friend when walking down the street? definitely.

But then, me and my friend aren't white.

[the_std]

Scamper, I don't think it's as much a white person view as it is a naive person view.

[Greenday]

Spoken like a true white man.

Oh, so because I believe in policing areas of high crime rates, it's me being racist? Don't give me that crap. I don't know the race of anyone involved. It could be an all-white neighborhood for all I care. It sounds like crime is out of control in that area. It sounds like the area isn't even safe to walk around during the day. At least, that's what the law-abiding citizens of the area make it out to be. So, if law-abiding citizens are afraid to walk around in the middle of the day, why would they do it at night? That's right, unless they REALLY need to, they don't. So the cops have every reason in the world to wonder why a person is walking in a ridiculously unsafe area in the middle of the night. Cause if you aren't in the middle of an emergency, you aren't walking around for the hell of it.

Yes, I take extremist views. I believe society has a ton of problems as it is. Areas with ridiculously high crime rates can't just sit there with no one doing a damn thing about it. Crime needs to be policed. More crime, more police. Problems don't work themselves out. Law needs to be administered since obviously the public can't do it themselves. Call it racist, call it naive. I call it actually thought out and actually doing something about the problem.

[Ree]

OK...calm it down a bit, guys.

That "spoken like a true white man" comment was way out of line.
Watch yourself.

[ditchdj]

Every time I hear someone say "If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't matter", I shudder.

Such an attitude is the death of civil liberties.

Quote of the week! :D

If I'm NOT breaking the law and there's no reason to suspect it then stay out of my home, stay out of my car, stay out of my bags, stay out of my bedroom! I've been stopped and questioned by cops too when I haven't even done anything wrong. And I'm white too. Go figure.

Now I know what to do next time. You might wanna check out this video too if you live in the states and know that you have rights even when pulled over or investigated by law enforcement....

The wrong way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaCe6nQUX5c

The right way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJrQBwJpqk&feature=related

[Flyndaran]

Even if every cop were the paragon of virtue that my police officer father was, I would still demand that my rights not be tossed aside in the name of expedience.
You want absolute safety? Then live in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. I prefer freedom, even though it increases my risks.

[Arcade Man D]

One thing that has been forgotten is that the streets are, technically, a public area. And dependent on state laws, it may already be perfectly legal for them to do that, because you are in a public area. They're simply questioning, and we don't know the extent of the questioning. It could be a simple "so, what's your business here?", not the "harrassment" everyone's painting it as.


As far as the CNN story about the mayor goes, that police department is up shit creek without a paddle, because they're sending the package they use to justify a non-warrant entry and search, it is, pure and simple, entrapment. Congratulations, you morons, you just made every single one of those arrests invalid now that you fucked this up and the truth comes out.

[Shangri-laschild]

I'm not positive that just asking someone who they are is against civil liberties. At work we FI (field interview) people all the time. Granted, we are a college police department, so the rules are changes a bit since we're basically policing a building and it's parking lots.

I hope that they don't have jerk cops that are enforcing things. I don't know completely how I feel about the situation. On the one hand, it sounds like the people in that community who fear for their life are welcoming any form of help they can get. If civil liberties are being infringed on though, it doesn't matter. Plus, there's no way of knowing if that's the view of all the people scared to be there or not.

I don't know how the situation is being handled by the police there, but unfortuntely, it only takes one bad cop. I hate that fact, and most of the officers I work with hate the bad cops just as much as most of you who don't like police in general.

Something to think about though, if all the honest people want it in their community (not saying if they do or not. hypothetical) and it's not illegal, does that make it ok?

[Boozy]

I'm not positive that just asking someone who they are is against civil liberties.

It's not, but it opens the door. From the article:

Fielder said officers had not arrested anyone for violating the curfew, only questioned people about why they were outside. Those without good answers or acting nervously get additional attention, Fielder said.

Here's where things get sticky. What comprises "additional attention"? Is this where the police follow the person around? Harass them?

I don't know how the situation is being handled by the police there, but unfortuntely, it only takes one bad cop.

Exactly. And the curfew law gives that bad cop the opening they need to harass people they don't like the looks of.

Something to think about though, if all the honest people want it in their community (not saying if they do or not. hypothetical) and it's not illegal, does that make it ok?

People the world over have historically given away their civil liberties for mere promises of safety in dangerous times. The best recent example is the current nonsense in the US post-9/11; suspension of habeas corpus, the Patriot Act, etc. Is it wrong? Not necessarily. But I'm willing to bet the average citizen is uninformed of the consequences. Civil liberties are not handed back easily. It's easy to give them up, but it's an epic struggle to gain back even an inch.

[MadMike]

Every time I hear someone say "If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't matter", I shudder.


You and me both. Everyone has something to hide. We're all guilty of something if you look hard enough.

[AdminAssistant]

As many here know, I am a native of NE Arkansas, and I'm well familiar with Helena/West Helena. Not to side track the issue, just let me give you some context for this particular situation. The Arkansas Delta is one of the poorest areas in the nation. Now part of this is because we have two big economy sucks sitting pretty in the Ozarks and refusing to share their money (WalMart & Tyson). Therefore, 1/4 of the state is very very rich and the rest is very very poor. The state government is so busy bending over trying to keep the big boys happy that they neglect the Delta. Which is very sad, to me. Schools in NW Arkansas have TV stations and schools in the Delta don't have working air conditioning. It absolutely makes me sick. But that's OT.

The vast majority of people who live in this area are poor and uneducated (and a minority, if you think it matters). Desperate times, desperate people, desperate measures. Add in close proximity to two large cities with a reputation for violence (Memphis and Little Rock), and it's a perfect storm for crime.

I really feel for the people of those cities. It's a bad bad situation. The City Council and Police Department was trying to find a way to make the city safe, and I don't blame them for that. Also understand that in Arkansas there's a different attitude toward authority figures than in other places. (I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just laying out the facts.) Now, I don't think this curfew was the best idea, but something extreme is going to have to happen to solve this problem. And one of the first things that needs to happen is for Governer Beebe to live up to his promise to equalize things in the state and to bring a major manufacturer to the area so there will be more jobs.

Sorry for the length, but my home state is something I'm very passionate about. :o

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

"As far as I'm concerned, at 3 o'clock in the morning, nobody has any business being on the street, except the law," Councilman Eugene "Red" Johnson said. "Anyone out at 3 o'clock shouldn't be out on the street, unless you're going to the hospital."

Uhm, what about the times when I was working Second Shift (3p-11p) and they dropped "Mandatory Overtime" on us and made us work until 2am?

Or for that matter working that shift means that my wife and I couldn't go right to sleep when we got off shift and so would drive the hour to get to the 24-hour Walmart Supercenter to get our Groceries. For that matter, do a search for Walmart stores in the 72390 zipcode (west Helena)...there is a 24 hour walmart supercenter there. Gee! Maybe people working late shift might want to stop and get the groceries or maybe replace the shoe that blew out a heel during work.

Frankly and city that has allowed a store to be open 24 hours has no goddamn right to say that people shouldn't be on the street at odd hours.

M

[protege]

Now, I don't think this curfew was the best idea, but something extreme is going to have to happen to solve this problem. And one of the first things that needs to happen is for Governer Beebe to live up to his promise to equalize things in the state and to bring a major manufacturer to the area so there will be more jobs.

I hear ya. Pittsburgh once had a similar problem. During the early 1990s, the gang wars were in full swing. It seemed that someone was getting shot every damn night, and nearly *all* of it was in the low-income, mostly-black neighborhoods. I remember driving through there on the way back from the museum, the hospital where my mother worked, etc. and hearing gunshots at night, or watching drug busts go down. Truly somewhere you *didn't* want to be, especially at night. Got so bad one year, that the city set all the lights along the main street (Second Avenue in Hazelwood) to green...simply so late-night commuters wouldn't have to stop.

What really sucks about that area, is it used to be an OK neighborhood. Not Beverly Hills, but not South Central either. First the mill closed, then the drugs and other problems came. 10-15 years on, things have seriously quieted down.

About the mill...a few years back, the city wanted to knock that down, and redevelop the area. As soon as the words "light industrial" were printed in the newspaper, the people living there bitched about it. IIRC, there weren't any major factories planned, mostly things like machine shops, better housing, and just cleaning up the remains of the mill. No matter what the city tried to do, it got shot down. Now the very same people living there....are now bitching about how there aren't any jobs :rolleyes:

Needless to say, another mill site (Homestead), which isn't far away...had the same thing done to it. Now, there are lots of retail shops, condos, a few warehouses, etc. ...all of which are booming. And yes, the people in Hazelwood are still pissed--they had their chance, and blew it.