Good Idea, Bad Idea: Inmate Lawn Service

[tropicsgoddess]

Inmates in chain gangs seemed like a thing of the past until Sheriff Joe Arpaia resurrected that with his tent city inmates. Picking up litter from the highway and doing odd jobs in the prison are the many things you see and/or hear about inmates doing while serving their time. Now, Pasco County is contemplating on having inmates do landscape work on foreclosed homes. Do you think this could be a good idea or bad idea?


St.Petersburg Times News Article (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/local/article768746.ece)

US News & World Report (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/the-home-front/2008/08/15/county-wants-prisoners-to-primp-foreclosures.html)

Sun-Sentinel Flori-DUH Column (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/specials/weirdflorida/blog/2008/08/prisoners_could_be_pressed_int_1.html)

[daleduke17]

Great idea. Jail should not be a relaxing time to sit back and relax. Get rid of the cable television, commisaries and "goodies".


from first article
"We have concerns about putting inmates in the neighborhoods," said spokesman Doug Tobin, who noted some offenders may be in jail on burglary charges.

There's countermeasures that can be taken to minimize that chance.

[Flyndaran]

What is with so many wanting to cause prisoners constant pain? They aren't there to be society's whipping boys and pornographic objects of our sadism.
Dehumanizing people does not make them law abiding. Taking away all of a man's joy in daily life does not make him less violent.
Training children with the stick alone doesn't work, so why should it suddenly work for adults?

[daleduke17]

So, Flyn, what do you think should happen with inmates then?

[Flyndaran]

So, Flyn, what do you think should happen with inmates then?

First move all the mentally ill someplace where they can get some d*mn help.
Real punishments and investigations into guard misconduct.
Benefits based on good behavior.
Therapy for those that might need it. Most commit crimes, because that's all they ever knew. New skills and self-esteem help might actually turn someone around. What a concept!
Let all the non-violent drug users go with mandated treatment IF they have addictions, otherwise let them control their own bodies. That should almost double the prison budget.

Not serious: Any politician that demands that we get tough on crime should spend a week in medium security jail to see just how "pleasant" prisons are.

Just off the top of my head of course..

[daleduke17]

Flyn, so, you don't believe that inmates should have to work while they are serving their time? Why is that?

There already is a benefit for good behavior in most cases. It's called day for day. Each day an inmate behaves, a day is taken off of their sentence (unless they are part of the mandatory 85% serving).

[powerboy]

Great idea. Jail should not be a relaxing time to sit back and relax. Get rid of the cable television, commisaries and "goodies".



Exactly like what I was going to say.

[Giggle Goose]

There are some people that would rather be in jail than be homeless. So maybe a lot less people would f*** up if they actually had to *gasp* WORK when going to prison.

It's YARD WORK, people, not shoveling manure on a farm or working in an ammunitions factory.

[AFPheonix]

While I do agree with Flyndaran to a degree about how people feel and act towards the incarcerated, I don't find this to necessarily be a bad punishment. It gets them out and in the sunshine doing something productive.
And let's face it, most of these guys are probably non-violent drug offenders or the occasional white collar crime guy.
Besides, it is good job training for some who may go out and start their own business whenever they get out.

[daleduke17]

If I was a Sheriff, here's how I would structure the day for inmates (general population, not the just arrested, solitary or work release):

5a - Lights on, calhestinics
6a - breakfast
7a - shower/hygeine
8a - chores (cleaning the jail building, property lawn care, etc)
10a - public service jobs (aforementioned lawn care, roadside trash pickup, etc)
1p - lunch
2p - class time (AA, parenting skills, money management, etc depending on the reason the inmate is incarcerated or skills like small motor repair, woodworking, etc) On weekends, this would be turned into visitation time.
6p - supper
7p - study/gym/"personal" etc time
9p - lights out

If the inmate is good, they can earn more job responsibilities (go from mopping inside to mowing outdoors) or perks (extra visitation time for example) in addition to day-for-day good behavior (if they qualify). If they want to stay up on current events, that is what the study time is. If the inmate misbehaves, they lose their perks.

All inmates would have to have their heads shaved/buzzed (if male) or cut bob style (if female). No artificial hair coloring, no jewlery, no head coverings no facial hair. No personal effects in cells.

Personal items provided would be: enough clothes (socks, underwear, shirts, pants) for 7 days (laundry would be every Saturday), basic hygiene items (soap, toothpaste, toothbrush, comb/brush, feminine products, toilet paper), bath towel (in the shower rooms). All safety equipment for jobs would be provided as well.

The county would provide all tools needed for jobs as well.

For the classes, most items would be paid for by the inmate (payable at time of release).

Hopefully that would end people from turning back up repeatedly in the county lockups.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

If I understand correctly, nobody is forced to do this sort of work. The prisoners volunteer for it. It gets them out into the sun and out of what must be a mind-numbing boring daily grind.

I'm all for prisoners getting out to do some work like useful human beings. Provided they aren't dangerous escape risks. I mean, they should give something back and be useful, productive people, same as anyone else.

[anriana]

I think it's a good idea as an option. I doubt they'd provide proper sunscreen though.



All inmates would have to have their heads shaved/buzzed (if male) or cut bob style (if female).

1) Why?
2) You're white and male with short hair, correct? Not all hair naturally styles into a bob when cut. Would you make nappy-haired women shave their heads if their hair didn't lay flat enough for you? And I'd far prefer to have a shaved head than to have my hair brushing the back of my neck and getting in my face while being too short to put in a ponytail.

[daleduke17]

1) Why?

To make sure there is no "gang style" haircuts in my jail.



2) You're white and male with short hair, correct?

Yep. Why does this matter?


Not all hair naturally styles into a bob when cut. Would you make nappy-haired women shave their heads if their hair didn't lay flat enough for you? And I'd far prefer to have a shaved head than to have my hair brushing the back of my neck and getting in my face while being too short to put in a ponytail.

I don't know if "bob" is the right word I was looking for. Just short hair (about shoulder length) and can be pulled back into a ponytail or kept neat.

[anriana]

To make sure there are no "gang style" haircuts in my jail.

But why would you need gendered hair cuts to determine that?
Would you make female inmates with short hair grow it out?
Are there long-haired gangs?


Yep. Why does this matter?

Because "white" hair types are quite different from other ethnicities' hair types. Not all hair grows straight and "black" hair certainly doesn't lay down flat and orderly when cut to shoulder length without a large amount of styling that required far more than a comb. Some "white" hair types aren't flat and non-wild when cut shoulder length - I know plenty of people who keep their hair longer to get some of the curl out and keep it tame. This matters because a white male with short hair probably isn't going to have ever thought about these issues, but if you were to mandate shoulder length hair for every female inmate and no grooming supplies but a comb you'd have lots of unkempt fros and frizz.


I don't know if "bob" is the right word I was looking for. Just short hair (about shoulder length) and can be pulled back into a ponytail or kept neat.

How would one keep it neat without pulling it into a ponytail? (you didn't list ponytails on your inmate supplies list) It would be too short to braid.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

Not to mention that some groups (like Native Americans, for one) have religious reasons for wearing their hair long. Courts have held up this right in many cases dealing with school dress codes, prison regulations requiring hair cuts, etc.

Also, what if you have a lesbian in jail who keeps her head shaved? Are you going to force her to grow it out when she doesn't want to?

If you're going to force men to cut their hair, are you going to force them to shave as well? And if you do force them to shave, will you force women to shave their legs and armpits too?

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'm thinking if your freedom to wear your hair however you want is all that important to you, it might behoove you to stay out of the Big House. I'm just sayin'.

[DesignFox]

I'm thinking if your freedom to wear your hair however you want is all that important to you, it might behoove you to stay out of the Big House. I'm just sayin'.

Gotta agree here.

I think an inmate work program is an excellent idea. If they are sitting in the big house, they may as well have the opportunity to do something useful. Also, I think it's great to give them an option of working outdoors. I'm sure if I were confined to a cage, any chance to get outside, even if it was to do some boring yard work, would seem like a shot at heaven. But then, I HATE being cooped up inside.

I don't agree that inmates should be tortured, or forced into slave labor camps, but putting them to hard (not abusive) work, setting out a routine with discipline, requiring a uniform and sense of order...all those things seem positive. If inmates are kept busy, they'll have less time to get in trouble. If they are learning trades, then those who will be getting out have a new skill set they can use when they are released. Those that are just a waste and can't be rehabilitated, are now being given a purpose- which can't be bad for them, and is certainly better for the rest of us.

I think things like that are a great idea.

[AFPheonix]

I'm thinking if your freedom to wear your hair however you want is all that important to you, it might behoove you to stay out of the Big House. I'm just sayin'.

Some people are there who shouldn't be.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yes, yes, I know that, and I knew people would not be able to type that out and post it fast enough.

But we are not talking here about the exception. We are talking about the vast majority of inmates that are there for a very good reason. I certainly do not maintain that our judicial system is perfect. Far from it. People are there that should not be. But they are not the majority. And as such, the rules should not be based on them. They should be based on the main population of people who clearly need rules and regulations laid out for them and enforced.

And anyhoo, how did we get from yard work to hair? :confused:

[daleduke17]

And anyhoo, how did we get from yard work to hair? :confused:

Because I posted that if I was in charge of a jail I would mandate certain criteria for inmates including hair style and hair length.

[AFPheonix]

Yes, yes, I know that, and I knew people would not be able to type that out and post it fast enough.

But we are not talking here about the exception. We are talking about the vast majority of inmates that are there for a very good reason. I certainly do not maintain that our judicial system is perfect. Far from it. People are there that should not be. But they are not the majority. And as such, the rules should not be based on them. They should be based on the main population of people who clearly need rules and regulations laid out for them and enforced.

And anyhoo, how did we get from yard work to hair? :confused:

I think being in prison is dehumanizing enough. Besides, what the hell is a gang haircut anyways?
I think it's a pointless and stupid measure.

[daleduke17]

I think being in prison is dehumanizing enough. Besides, what the hell is a gang haircut anyways?
I think it's a pointless and stupid measure.

Nowadays a lot of criminals find it as a badge of honor to be in jail/prison. The more times, the better. So, it is getting away from being dehumanizing.

There are gangs (I can't remember names) that will shave certain marks into their hair that normal people won't understand, but fellow gang members will recognize. I think the MS13 (a particularly nasty gang) will have one mark shaved into the right eyebrow and three in the left to signify "13" for example.

Like someone else said, if you want freedom to choose your hairstyle, stay out of jail.

[Boozy]

Gang activity in prison is out of control, and I don't think changes in hairstyle would do much to get a handle on the problem.

It seems like one of those pointless symbolic things that has the public saying, "Yeah! We sure showed them!" when in reality, they have achieved absolutely nothing of value. The concept of forced buzz cuts would play well to the masses, but likely wouldn't be worth the cost of the clippers.

[anriana]

Nowadays a lot of criminals find it as a badge of honor to be in jail/prison. The more times, the better. So, it is getting away from being dehumanizing.

There are gangs (I can't remember names) that will shave certain marks into their hair that normal people won't understand, but fellow gang members will recognize. I think the MS13 (a particularly nasty gang) will have one mark shaved into the right eyebrow and three in the left to signify "13" for example.

Like someone else said, if you want freedom to choose your hairstyle, stay out of jail.

So don't allow people to shave symbols into their hair? Why would you have to force people to have buzz cuts to avoid this?

You still haven't answered whether or not you would force female inmates with short hair to grow theirs out or anything related to hair types that don't work with shoulder-length hair.

[AFPheonix]

Nowadays a lot of criminals find it as a badge of honor to be in jail/prison. The more times, the better. So, it is getting away from being dehumanizing.



It still is dehumanizing if this is all they are able to take pride in during their lifetimes.

[daleduke17]

So don't allow people to shave symbols into their hair? Why would you have to force people to have buzz cuts to avoid this?

When they originally come in, it gets buzzed. If the military can get away with having buzz cuts, then a jail can as well.



You still haven't answered whether or not you would force female inmates with short hair to grow theirs out or anything related to hair types that don't work with shoulder-length hair.


Would females have to grow it out? No. The length would be a maximum length. If they have some obnoxious style with it short, then they'd have to have the style removed.

[tropicsgoddess]

I'm all for the inmate lawn service for the minimum security inmates that have no burglary charges. They get to do something productive while serving their time and that will also help them garner skills they can use to make their own business in the landscaping industry (if they choose to) and/or seek work in that field since it's more of a rehabilitative thing and the purpose of prison was to rehabilitate inmates into going back on the straight and narrow path as good citizens instead of punishing them and making them recidivists.

[Greenday]

Heck, if anything, it just means more time out of their cell, so if they aren't being forced to do it, then why not? Nothing wrong with it as long as they are supervised.

As for haircuts, there's enough gang-related violence on the outside. No reason to add more while on the inside. They need to be de-educated about gangs. You aren't cool because you are in a gang. You are scum.

[Boozy]

They need to be de-educated about gangs. You aren't cool because you are in a gang. You are scum.

Inmates don't join prison gangs because they think it's cool. These aren't suburbanite kids pretending to be bad-ass.

Inmates join gangs because they need to survive. The gang offers them protection. Convicts who have never joined a gang on the outside suddenly find themselves begging the Aryan Brotherhood or Mexican Mafia to take them in. People who are scared will find safety wherever they can. And these gangs are big business; there's a lot of money involved for the leaders.

Haircuts and education won't do much about this issue.

[Greenday]

A lot of gangs from the outside just continue on the inside. Whatever gang you belonged to, there's a group waiting in jail for you and that's who you stick with.

[Seshat]

1. I can't agree enough with the 'focus hard on medical treatment for those in jail'. Far too many people are in jail because, ultimately, they have some sort of psychiatric or other medical disorder that's screwed up their lives. Fix that, and you've made it possible (for some) and more feasible (for the rest) to sort out their lives and become functioning, legally obedient members of society.

2. Many religions require their members to have their head covered. Religion is also frequently a stabilising and disciplining element in peoples' lives. Disrupt their religion, and you're going to make it harder to rehab them.

3. Different types of hair and skin require different types of care and different toiletries. Unless your goal is to add constant annoyance (or even actual health risk) to the lives of prisoners of different hair and skin type to your own, don't restrict grooming supplies or styles to those which are suitable for your skin/hair type.
That said, within the limits of skin/hair type & religious dictates, a certain uniformity can be a disciplining force in the lives of the prisoners.

4. I strongly support both good work practice and life-skills training for people who have been proven to need to learn both. However, I'm not sure that charging the prisoners for it on exit, thus giving them a debt to cope with right from the start, is going to help. These are (usually) people who already find life difficult.
Maybe a trial program can be run to see if the overall cost to society is higher or lower if society just accepts the cost of teaching prisoners life skills. I suspect that once you take into account all the costs - including chasing up delinquent loans, dealing with people who can't budget, dealing with people who don't read well enough to understand simple signs - the overall benefit to society is greater than the cost of teaching.

5. As with the life skills teaching, I think good followup is necessary. Once a prisoner is released, they should be getting support until they've proven to cope with life on the outside.

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

Great idea. Jail should not be a relaxing time to sit back and relax. Get rid of the cable television, commisaries and "goodies".

No, Leave them in.

Just make them earn it. If they're working and making prison wages, give them something to spend it on. I pay for TV, make them. I want a chocolate bar I pay for it...make them.

M