Military drafts - male and female

[Sylvia727]

I didn't want to hijack daleduke's thread, so here this is.

If a draft is instated, should it be male-specific or sex-inclusive? I have long been a proponent of women in combat, mainly because I'm a feminist/equalist, and discrimination is discrimination. By only sending men out to die, we send a message that men are worth less, and by denying women the obligation to defend their country, we send a message that women are too weak. With rights come responsibilities - how can I as a woman have equal rights with a man if I don't have equal responsibilities?

It also concerns numbers. By including women, we double the pool of draftees, and halve the age bracket sent to war. This is a good thing for everybody, right? The smaller the bracket sent, the greater the spread of people left behind to try to maintain the country during the draft. It seems to me that sending all the 18-year-olds makes more sense than sending the male 18- and 19-year-olds. I'd rather have all the 19-year-olds here at home than the female 18- and 19-year-olds. It seems much less disruptive to the normal routine.

There are four main arguments against women in combat that I've heard: (1) women are delicate flowers (2) female POWs could be raped (3) periods are a hygiene concern (4) women aren't as good at killing.

For (1), I fantasize about whacking the person with a cluebat. Usually, delicate in this context means weak-willed or sensitive, a 17th century prima donna who faints at the sight of blood. Women are not flowers; we are people, with equal rights and responsibilities.

For (2), I just laugh in the person's face. Men can be raped too, and I'm sure there are plenty of sex-neutral tortures that are just as bad as rape. This argument is just blatant misogynism.

For (3), I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I know there are ways to handle periods better than the average consumer does. Instead of disposable tampons, assuming the soldier would not be in a position to use that type of facility, there are hygiene products that are re-usable. I'm sure sitting around in your blood for days on end isn't recommended, but I'm also sure that it's not significantly worse than hygiene problems faced by males. If someone really can't get to a source of washing water, they probably have much bigger concerns than the few ounces of blood that have been sitting around for a few days.

For (4), I will acknowledge the obvious about strength, but that could be partially overcome with extra boot camp time, if necessary. Female firefighters meet the same standards as the ones for males all the time, even if perhaps the training takes them longer.

[Boozy]

For (4), I will acknowledge the obvious about strength, but that could be partially overcome with extra boot camp time, if necessary. Female firefighters meet the same standards as the ones for males all the time, even if perhaps the training takes them longer.

War is so technogically-dependent now, anyway. Although there are plenty of positions that require sheer strength, there are thousands that don't. Since the advent of the rifle, strength is not as important as endurance. And that's not necessarily a sex-specific attribute.

The major reason women historically weren't drafted is because it causes a sharp decrease in birth rates. Population growth is important to economic growth, especially in times of war.

[Flyndaran]

War is so technogically-dependent now, anyway. Although there are plenty of positions that require sheer strength, there are thousands that don't. Since the advent of the rifle, strength is not as important as endurance. And that's not necessarily a sex-specific attribute.
....

Standard military gear weighs over 60 pounds. If you know a large number of women that can march miles with that...

[Boozy]

Like I said, there are plenty of positions that require sheer strength. There are also plenty that don't.

[Sylvia727]

I carried a 50 pound child a mile and a half when she hurt her ankle in a park, and I'm definitely not in shape. I'm sure there are a large number of women who would graduate boot camp with that capability.

[daleduke17]

Female firefighters meet the same standards as the ones for males all the time, even if perhaps the training takes them longer.

That is not entirely correct. I have seen several fire departments around here have different requirements for the physical agility tests for males and females (like I said in a different thread).

And if there ever was another draft, there damn sure better be females getting drafted as well.

[Slytovhand]

Historically speaking.....

there were a few reasons why women were excluded from the military... depending on the military in question!

I think the Greeks and Romans reckoned that women were too emotional - either in the context of not having the willingness to actually fight (and therefore to run away), or would be more likely to make emotional attachments to others wwhich would distract them from doing what they were told to. (of course, what does that say about the Spartans??? hmmm - I love hypocrisy!)

I'm pretty damn sure the Celts threw those ideas to the wind..... And that's why the Romans were well and truly thrashed the first couple of times they tried to take Britain..

So - if they're going to draft - draft 'everyone'... besides, drafting doesn't just mean being on the front line, it also means medical, comms, supply, admin, etc etc...


Anyone seen Starship Troopers??? :p

[Greenday]

Anyone seen Starship Troopers??? :p

Lol. Um, check my sig.

I don't see why my life is less important than all females. Everyone, male and female, should be entered in it and have equal chances of being picked. There's not one good, fair reason to have it male only.

[Amethyst Hunter]

An interesting thing to note about the Israelis: Over there, some form of military service, up to about 2 years' worth at least, is *required* for all males and females of age; only a small portion of Hasidic Jews (I think that's the sect; I could be wrong) are excused on religious grounds. Everyone else (who is capable, that is) must serve in some capacity, whether it be on the battlefield or in an office - as someone pointed out, duty doesn't necessarily have to involve actual combat (although combat skills would be a pretty useful thing to have) - thereby negating the use for any draft.

I'm of mixed thought on that idea, but I can see where such a policy has its advantages. For one thing, citizens get a better idea of what goes on in a military operation, and many may come away with a better sense of self and self-respect/discipline in addition to whatever skills they pick up from their particular department. Not bad things in and of themselves.

[AFPheonix]

There are several differences between Israel and the US, though. One, they are a small nation. Two, they have a lot of countries around them that if not hostile, then at least use the existence of Israel existing as a reason for certain policy decisions and propaganda. They need to have a pretty large army for the way they've conducted their local foreign policy.

[Slytovhand]

While both of your points are quite correct Pheonix, Switzerland and France also have military service, which sort of negates one of your points.

(might be worth mentioning - Switzerland also has fairly liberal gun laws - but not the same number of gun deaths, as the US...)

Slyt

[AFPheonix]

France has effectively ended conscription. Switzerland still has it, but it is rarely enforced.
They are somewhat similar to Israel in that their laws regarding recruitment were forged during times of conflict and warmongering.

[Sylvia727]

I have seen several fire departments around here have different requirements for the physical agility tests for males and females (like I said in a different thread).

It's been a few years since I wrote this term paper, but I'm pretty sure either The Supreme Court or a State Supreme Court ruled that holding males and females to the same standard is not sexism, and specifically used the example of firefighters as an issue of public safety. I know there are departments who have different requirements, and I'm sick about it, but they don't have to by law.

I don't see why my life is less important than all females.

What? You're not willing to die for my delicately blossoming self? You won't risk your life to protect my fingernails from being broken? But I just had them painted! What if I get blood on my uniform? What if someone yells at me? You must do the chivalrous thing and protect me from all the evils of the world! </sarcasm>

[Greenday]

What? You're not willing to die for my delicately blossoming self? You won't risk your life to protect my fingernails from being broken? But I just had them painted! What if I get blood on my uniform? What if someone yells at me? You must do the chivalrous thing and protect me from all the evils of the world! </sarcasm>

Well, when you put it that way, it's ok I guess. :p

[Difdi]

For (4), I will acknowledge the obvious about strength, but that could be partially overcome with extra boot camp time, if necessary. Female firefighters meet the same standards as the ones for males all the time, even if perhaps the training takes them longer.

An untrained woman, convinced she must defend herself or die, who chooses not to die, if armed with a gun, is more dangerous to her attacker than an equally untrained man in the same circumstances. It has to do with instincts and such.

The particular qualities that make someone accurate with a gun under battlefield stress generally have to be trained into men, but women tend to have those qualities instinctively. Individuals will of course vary widely. But if we're discussing the statistical (and mostly mythical) Average Woman and Average Man, the above generally holds true.

Culturally is another matter entirely. Due to a combination of nonsensical ideas and misguided attitudes, many women in the above situation will, consciously or not, choose to die instead of fight. Fear of guns does more damage to the safety of women in our culture than all the rapists put together.

[Slytovhand]

Culturally is another matter entirely. Due to a combination of nonsensical ideas and misguided attitudes, many women in the above situation will, consciously or not, choose to die instead of fight. Fear of guns does more damage to the safety of women in our culture than all the rapists put together.

Please explain.....

[crazylegs]

On a different tangent,

Say only men go to the battlefield, and only 1 in 20 survive (crap odds I know, but stay with me). Once the war is over the depleted male population can impregnate lots of women and regrow the poulation reasonable quickly.

Consider it reversed, population regrowth would take considerable longer.

[BlaqueKatt]

On a different tangent,

Say only men go to the battlefield, and only 1 in 20 survive (crap odds I know, but stay with me). Once the war is over the depleted male population can impregnate lots of women and regrow the poulation reasonable quickly.

Consider it reversed, population regrowth would take considerable longer.

um with over 6 billion people on the planet do we really need to worry about this?

as it stands in the US only 1% of the total population is in the military in one form or another-active duty, national guard, reserve etc. If there was a draft that number might double or triple however it is still an almost negligible number compared to the whole-the argument is a non-issue. Even at 10% a one in twenty survival rate for women would have little effect on the population.

[anriana]

On a different tangent,

Say only men go to the battlefield, and only 1 in 20 survive (crap odds I know, but stay with me). Once the war is over the depleted male population can impregnate lots of women and regrow the poulation reasonable quickly.

Consider it reversed, population regrowth would take considerable longer.

I can't see any democratic country ever implementing a system where surviving male soldiers impregnate 20 (or whatever number) women each to regrow the country's population. Personally I would rather kill myself than allow my goverment to turn me into a breeding animal. (icky BSG/Farscape flashbacks go)

We can grow successful test tube babies anyways so needing women for their reproductive system is no longer relevant.

[AFPheonix]

Well....we can unite sperm and eggs outside the womb, but we still need the womb to gestate the fetus. So no, we're not totally useless yet ;)

[Boozy]

as it stands in the US only 1% of the total population is in the military in one form or another-active duty, national guard, reserve etc.

That's total population, including non-reproducing segments like seniors and children. In the event of a draft, 100% of women drafted would be of reproductive age.

Even at 10% a one in twenty survival rate for women would have little effect on the population.

Casualties are not the primary cause of lowered birth rates in times of war. It's that people are away from home fighting instead of....well, you know.

Removing even 10% of all women of reproductive age from the homefront for one year would have an astonishing ripple effect on population growth.

In this day and age of global overpopulation and immigration, I don't see falling birth rates as a problem for a westernized war economy. But historically, it was a major concern, and certainly factored into why women were never sent to war with the men.

[anriana]

Well....we can unite sperm and eggs outside the womb, but we still need the womb to gestate the fetus. So no, we're not totally useless yet ;)

Gestation is already being outsourced.

[Slytovhand]

Removing even 10% of all women of reproductive age from the homefront for one year would have an astonishing ripple effect on population growth

Although, women are putting off having kids til later anyway, so perhaps not as much as in the past.

Isn't 'western civilisation' having an issue anyway of a lowered rate of birth, and thus we're going to have an increasingly larger aging population for the next couple of decades? "We" (that's obviously the W version...) are having less kids, and at a later age than previously... what used to be 2 or 3 kids (or more - depending on how far back you go) is now only 1 or 2.


Which is fair enough, once they work out how to stop the 'ageing' process, and can regrow our organs and all...


Slyt

[Amethyst Hunter]

Please explain.....

Historically, women have been taught to please men and that this is their only purpose in life. Pleasing men means being quiet, don't make a fuss, always smile, always apologize (even when it isn't your fault), don't ask for anything because you don't deserve it, always Be Nice To Others Or Else No One Will Like You...in short, repress yourself because you aren't a worthy human being.

When you consider how much else we've trained ourselves out of in regards to instinct, it's not hard to see how this cultural brainwashing can override one's natural fight-or-flight response to a threat. Predators against women know this and use it to their advantage; Gavin de Becker talks about a technique in his book The Gift Of Fear called "forced teaming" - a rapist will approach a victim and talk about a scenario, without asking consent, like "We'd better get these groceries in before the rain comes" in order to get his victim to trust him. Women, not wanting to be seen as rude and therefore Bad, will go along with this despite a gut feeling that something's wrong, and the scumbag is able to carry out his evil that much easier.

So yes, sadly, there are some women who have had this kind of mindset so ingrained in them by the culture/their family/their peers/etc. that they literally find it -impossible- to resist, and often end up irreparably damaged and/or dead for it. :(

[AFPheonix]

Gestation is already being outsourced.

To other wombs, yes, but to the best of my knowledge they have not yet created an artificial one yet.

[Slytovhand]

Historically, women have been taught....

Okies, thanks.

But, wouldn't you see military service as a good thing to help overcome this ingraining? All the training etc should give them a better sense of self-worth, or at least a stronger willingness to fight back against that sort of thing...???

[Vagabond]

Personally, me, as an individual, believe that a system similar to Israel's would be a good thing. A system where all able-bodied persons (men and women) should serve at least 2 years in the military.

I, personally, would not advocate putting women on front-line or battle units due to the physical aspect (reason 1). However, if the female in question can prove that she can and is able, more power to her, although I would still be leery of doing that. For this reason - average male weighs about 200 lbs., average female usually weighs around 160 lbs. There are more females I have seen that I wouldn't trust to be able to carry me if I was injured. Granted there are some males that I would question their ability as well.

Reason 2: There is a somewhat cultural training as well. I do not speak for everyone, but i was taught to look out and take care of females. So I naturally tend to help them, and in a fire fight situation, I may accidentally endanger the unit by trying to take care the female.

But, there are plenty of other jobs in the military that do not involve getting near the front lines. So, I am all for everyone, all able-bodied people, spending some time in the military. That way, if need be, you could recall an entire countries' worth of people to mobilize against an enemy, much like Finnish military.

[Tanasi]

I'm very courious how many here have served in a military branch and of those how many have been in actual combat?
I raise my hand on both counts.

[Boozy]

In that case, I hope that your fellow Americans have thanked you for your service. However, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

[Tanasi]

In that case, I hope that your fellow Americans have thanked you for your service. However, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

Very few have done so and when I returned the first time I was called a baby killer but only spit upon once (that guy is gumming his food somewhere today.) I didn't go when asked to receive any gratitude from anyone, I expected the same respect that I gave but didn't get it.

At this time I'm not trying to make a point just asking.

[Nyoibo]

Drafts are a bad idea, people who don't want to be there end up making bad soldiers which just puts their fellow soldiers more at risk.

[Rageaholic]

Drafts are a bad idea, people who don't want to be there end up making bad soldiers which just puts their fellow soldiers more at risk.

ITA. The minute they start drafting is the minute I say "Fuck America" and GTFO. I am of the belief that under NO circumstances is drafting a good thing. People should join the military by choice, not by force.

[Vagabond]

If I've read correctly in Israel's system, IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_military)
<snip from wiki site> "Other than the National Service, IDF conscripts may serve in bodies other than the IDF in a number of ways. Non-combat services include the Mandatory Police Service program, where youth are instead serve in the police, Israel Prison Service, or other wings of the Israeli Security Forces."
So, as such, you wouldn't have to serve in the military. You could serve as a policeman or prison guard, or other wings of the Security Forces.
They also make exceptions for religious, conscientious objectors, physical and psychological grounds.

And I believe I said it before, I only think that it would be a good idea. I doubt it could or would be implemented - it would be political suicide to even suggest that idea. However, I would like to throw out this idea - America's military comprise about less that 1% of the population, right? What are the figures for Unemployment and/or homeless? The military/prison service/police may not be a great job, however it is employment - at least enough to feed and clothe yourself.

[the_std]

However, I would like to throw out this idea - America's military comprise about less that 1% of the population, right? What are the figures for Unemployment and/or homeless? The military/prison service/police may not be a great job, however it is employment - at least enough to feed and clothe yourself.

There is a problem with this idea. A large percentage of the homeless are in that situation because they have undiagnosed/untreated illnesses, usually mental illnesses, which would make them unfit for the draft. It is a good idea to help them out, but it would definitely have implementation problems.

[Vagabond]

the_std - I agree, however, before going into any of the services (military, police, prison, etc), I would assume there is a screening for being unfit for any reason. But, how many people could likely be helped in such a situation? How many people would it need to help?
Implementation would be almost next to impossible to implement in the US, and I'm sure not only for the political suicide that would occur.

[daleduke17]

ITA. The minute they start drafting is the minute I say "Fuck America" and GTFO. I am of the belief that under NO circumstances is drafting a good thing. People should join the military by choice, not by force.

If you were around during Vietnam you would have been hated more than the soldiers who went and fought if you left the country.

Draft dodgers aren't looked very friendly upon.

[protege]

Draft dodgers aren't looked very friendly upon.

...unless you're one Bill Clinton. Then you get two terms in the White House. Sorry folks, couldn't resist :p

Seriously though, I do have a cousin who fled to Canada during the Vietnam War. Even though he, and thousands of other draft-dodgers were pardoned by then-President Ford, as far as my family is concerned, he doesn't exist. That fucking pussy can stay in Canada. Why is he a pussy? Well, considering that my great-grandfather, grandfather, several uncles, and my father...all *volunteered* for military service...they all saw it as a slap in their faces that he chose to run away.

[elsporko]

Women being drafted is just a bad idea. The drafted people are usually out on the front lines and women often times aren't as strong or physical as men. If you were put in a situation that was life or death would you want a 200 pound man next to you or a 120 pound woman.

[McDreidel09]

Seriously though, I do have a cousin who fled to Canada during the Vietnam War. Even though he, and thousands of other draft-dodgers were pardoned by then-President Ford, as far as my family is concerned, he doesn't exist. That fucking pussy can stay in Canada. Why is he a pussy? Well, considering that my great-grandfather, grandfather, several uncles, and my father...all *volunteered* for military service...they all saw it as a slap in their faces that he chose to run away.

That's kinda not fair. If he was too scared to go, then it was probably good that he didn't go. Not everyone is cut out for the military, even if many relatives are a part of it. For example, my father will be the only one in the family without at least one child in the military. I'm too chickenshit to be deployed and my sister just wouldn't be able to handle basic.

There should never be a draft again. Let anyone who is 18 join no matter their ethnicity or orientation who can mentally and physically handle it.

[daleduke17]

That's kinda not fair. If he was too scared to go, then it was probably good that he didn't go. Not everyone is cut out for the military, even if many relatives are a part of it. For example, my father will be the only one in the family without at least one child in the military. I'm too chickenshit to be deployed and my sister just wouldn't be able to handle basic.


There's always the Coast Guard, which is a branch of the armed forces that you could serve in, yet not have to see combat action.

[Hobbs]

There's always the Coast Guard, which is a branch of the armed forces that you could serve in, yet not have to see combat action.
According to the re-distribution of the military following 9/11, the USCG is under the Dept. of Homeland Security. Only in a time of war is it put under the Dept. of the Navy.

That's kinda not fair. If he was too scared to go, then it was probably good that he didn't go. Not everyone is cut out for the military, even if many relatives are a part of it. For example, my father will be the only one in the family without at least one child in the military. I'm too chickenshit to be deployed and my sister just wouldn't be able to handle basic.

There should never be a draft again. Let anyone who is 18 join no matter their ethnicity or orientation who can mentally and physically handle it.
Hojo Awa no kami once gathered together his disciples in the martial arts and called in a physiognomist, who was popular in Edo at the time, to have him determine whether they were brave men or cowards. He had them see the man one by one, telling them, "If he determines 'bravery,' you should strive all the more. If it is 'cowardice,' you should strive by throwing away your life. It's something that you're born with, so there's no shame in it."
Hirose Denzaemon was then about twelve or thirteen years old. When he sat down in front of the physiognomist, he said in a bristling voice , ''if you read cowardice in me, I'll cut you down with a single blow !"

[protege]

That's kinda not fair. If he was too scared to go, then it was probably good that he didn't go. Not everyone is cut out for the military, even if many relatives are a part of it.

I can understand being scared--he would have been foolish not to be. But, to turn his back on his *obligation* is another story. Rather than face his obligation, he chose the easy way out. That's why my grandparents were pissed at him, and why he's no longer a part of the family.

[Nyoibo]

The draft was not an obligation though, it was, for want of a better term forced labour.

[Hobbs]

The draft was not an obligation though, it was, for want of a better term forced labour.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill

[Rageaholic]

If you were around during Vietnam you would have been hated more than the soldiers who went and fought if you left the country.

Draft dodgers aren't looked very friendly upon.

Than they could hate me all they want. My life and my freedom too important to worry about what other people hating me.

[Greenday]

You know, it's completely possible to get drafted and not actually fight. Hell, they could completely reject you outright.

[Hobbs]

Than they could hate me all they want. My life and my freedom too important to worry about what other people hating me.
Points to my above post

[Nyoibo]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill

There are quite a few things for which I'm prepared to fight for, but a governments paranoia of the red menace or want of oil are not some of them.

[Hobbs]

There are quite a few things for which I'm prepared to fight for, but a governments paranoia of the red menace or want of oil are not some of them.
What are you willing to fight for then?

[crashhelmet]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill

My dad has this quote hanging on his wall amongst his medals, citations, and pictures from his career in the Marines. I make it a point to read it every time I walk in the room.

As many have said, there are more than just front-line combat roles to draft for. Not everyone is cut out for combat. Even some of those that think they are crumble when things get heavy. I believe that women should be drafted right along with the men.

To be honest, there are times that I think we need to do what many other countries do and require people to serve their first 2 years out of high school in the military if they don't go on to college. The pros would outweigh the cons.

CH

[crazylegs]

Women being drafted is just a bad idea. The drafted people are usually out on the front lines and women often times aren't as strong or physical as men. If you were put in a situation that was life or death would you want a 200 pound man next to you or a 120 pound woman.

And of course the only thing that the armed forces do is have infantry, there aren't any support trades at all are the elsporko?

[Nyoibo]

I know a 120lbs woman who can lift me... actually I know 3 or 4.

[Boozy]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill

Blech. I could not disagree with the first part of that quote more.

Like Nyoibo, there are plenty of things for which I'd sacrifice my personal freedom, but some misplaced sense of identity as a "Canadian" is not one of them.

Patriotism is a nasty sentiment.

[elsporko]

And of course the only thing that the armed forces do is have infantry, there aren't any support trades at all are the elsporko?




When your drafting people you don't generally want to take the time and effort to train them for a job they won't stick with, plus if you resort to a draft you are in need of combat soldiers quickly.

[Boozy]

When your drafting people you don't generally want to take the time and effort to train them for a job they won't stick with, plus if you resort to a draft you are in need of combat soldiers quickly.

The military doesn't do all of their own training in the event of a draft.

Skilled trades people were drafted in both World Wars and Vietnam. They received basic training and then their previously acquired skills were put to use according to need.

If a woman is a doctor or engineer in civilian life, her services would be very useful for the military in war time. She shouldn't be exempt from a draft just because she's a woman.

[Nyoibo]

Korea too.

[AdminAssistant]

That's one of the main reasons my Dad went to vo-tech to become a mechanic, when/if he got drafted, he wanted to be repairing planes and jeeps, not carrying a M-16 through the jungle. (He wound up not having to go, but that's a different story.)

I might have said it earlier in this thread, but if we want equal rights, then we have to take equal responsibility. I'd like it if there were no selective service, but as long as men have to sign up, then women should, too.

[Hobbs]

That's one of the main reasons my Dad went to vo-tech to become a mechanic, when/if he got drafted, he wanted to be repairing planes and jeeps, not carrying a M-16 through the jungle. (He wound up not having to go, but that's a different story.)

I might have said it earlier in this thread, but if we want equal rights, then we have to take equal responsibility. I'd like it if there were no selective service, but as long as men have to sign up, then women should, too.
Yeah. I won't vote for the ERA until women are included in the Selective Service.