CS and "race card" threads

[The Shadow]

I thought I'd start a new topic as it's been something I've been thinking about lately.

I've been reading CS in it's various incarnations for about seven years now and one topic I notice that seems to come up very frequently is SC's who "play the race card". Typically they go like this...person recounts story of dealing with customer of a particular race/ethnicity. Customer complains, about something, doesn't like they way they're being treated and says "you're treating me this way because I'm...(insert race/ethnicity here)". Other people chime in with similar experiences, and the response is one of general outrage and how often it happens, and how mad it makes them when SC's use this tactic etc.

Now I'm not saying this doesn't happen. I'm sure it does and I'm grateful that I haven't had to deal with this myself (at least not yet) and I don't blame people for being furious about it when it happens.

But I can also see another possible side to these "race card" stories...

Even though we collectively strive to be free of it, we all know that racism (and sexism) is still alive and well and often manifests itself in subtle ways that we're not always conscious of, and this can affect how we treat others. Case in point, -- and I'm going to use an example of gender bias in this instance because it's one I've heard recently and I think it demonstrates my point effectively...a female acquaintance of mine was recounting a story about how she was passed over for a promotion at work because she was deemed "too aggressive". Now one explaination for this would be that here we have the gender double standard at work...that when men behave aggressively, they are praised and encouraged, whereas when women exhibit the same traits, they often get labled 'bitches' or 'ball-busters'. On the other hand, I can also see another possibility...that maybe this particular position required someone who is co-operative, good with people and therefore a genuinely aggressive person of either sex would be unsuited to it, hence this is not a case of sexism. Not knowing too much about her or where she works, I can't say which one it is, but both explanations sound equally plausible. I think you see my point

So it did get me thinking with regards to CS "race card" threads...might the accusation be justified, at least in SOME cases?

[crazylegs]

So it did get me thinking with regards to CS "race card" threads...might the accusation be justified, at least in SOME cases?

Each individual case would have to be looked at in quite significant detail to asertain whether or not a particular poster is acting in such a way, however the general feeling is that when an employee is following The Rules (whatever they may be) to the letter as they do day in day out (under punishment of firing) then for one person of <whatever ethnicity> to play the race card is quite clearly unacceptable.

Yes rasicm is prevalent in todays society, it's certainly not nearly as overt as it has been in the past with segregation or apartheid but people who thought that both of these things was A Good Idea still live, as they did when such systems were in place. Education has come a long way in opening our eyes to different cultures but there is a strong underlying current of racism within out society, I've dealt with it recently at work (I'm white btw) and I'm sure every poster here can come up with an example from some point in the last five years or so.

However, I'm going to stop rambling and get back to my point, I would suggest that if the poster (whoever they may be) is doing as they *always* do irrespective of race then they are justified in their indignation of the race card being played, if however they do change their attitudes or actions according to race then the complaint stands; however we are not there at the time and have to take each complaint as it stands from merely one party involved.

[BlaqueKatt]

Yes rasicm is prevalent in todays society


take a lesson from Avenue Q-"everyone's a little bit Racist" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbwNSNLPIfw)


sadly some people believe that due to past racism in the world the world owes them something-the world owes you nothing, it was here first.

[MadMike]

So it did get me thinking with regards to CS "race card" threads...might the accusation be justified, at least in SOME cases?

In a few extremely rare cases, yes.

A local restaurant got busted a few years back for denying tables to black people. They got them by doing what they call a "sandwich." They sent a black person in, who was told there were no tables. Then they sent a white person in, who was seated without a problem. Then they sent another black person in, who was again told there were no tables.

Surprisingly, they're still in business.

[Saydrah]

sadly some people believe that due to past racism in the world the world owes them something-the world owes you nothing, it was here first.

If I let you step on my shoulders to get onto a high ledge, shouldn't you extend a hand to help me up next?

This country could not have become so wealthy and powerful so fast without slavery, and people are still alive today who suffered from Jim Crow laws when they tried to get an education, a job, and a life that allowed them to take advantage of that wealth and power.

So I do think some affirmative action is a good idea in order to extend the benefits of a country built on the backs of racial minorities to those same racial minorities today. Do I know exactly what that should look like? No. I'm not an expert on the subject. However, when the people who are put forth plans-- for example, a plan to help minorities start a business-- I'll support them.

[Lace Neil Singer]

The only time I ever had someone pull the race card on me, it was a black girl doing so after I carded her. She claimed I only carded her cuz she was black; in reality, she did not look old enough to buy alcohol and as far as I'm concerned, I don't care if you're black, white or bloody rainbow coloured; if you look underage, you either produce ID or you don't buy the booze. I'm sure that in most people's stories, it's pretty much the same thing; someone wants you to bend the rules in a case where it's just not possible to do so and they cry racism when you refuse.

[Jadedcarguy]

However, when the people who are put forth plans-- for example, a plan to help minorities start a business-- I'll support them.

Plenty of programs are in place right now that help minorities, blacks especially, get ahead. Organizations exist right now that help minorities get ahead. If someone were to try to start a program or organization to help white people at the exclusion of all others get ahead, it would be branded racist.

I have no issue with the NAACP or UNCF, they do good work. The problem I have is that these groups and laws like AA are designed to even the playing field, not skew it in advantage of a person of color. When it comes to assistance programs, whitey takes second place right now. Think about it: any program that helps white folks will also help blacks, mexicans, asians, whoever. If I took a grievance to the NAACP, they'd laugh me away. If I told Jackson or Sharpton that I'd been discriminated against, they'd tell me I "deserved" it.

As an HWM(heterosexual white man) I have to rely on myself to get a job, a college grant, a scholarship, a lawyer, a home loan(that difference is fading fast), or many other things that help me "get ahead" in life. The current financial crisis and piss-poor housing market are due almost entirely to giving home loans to the "underprivileged"(a bullshit PC term. I can't afford a Lamborghini, but I want one. Boo-hoo, I'm underprivileged), minorities and otherwise who simply couldn't afford to buy a house. So a loan program was forced down the throats of financial institutions telling them to give loans to these folks even if they didn't look like they would pay them back or had the credit history to indicate they would pay them back. Many of these loan recipients were minorities who would not have been given the home loans if the market hadn't been deregulated in the late '90's specifically for the purpose of "housing" the "underprivileged". Damn I hate that word.

If I were a black man, I wouldn't need to worry as much if at all because my skin color would entitle me to assistance from the groups I mentioned earlier. Would it be detrimental if I had a large income and family money behind me? Nope. If I wanted to go to college the UNCF would help me. If I felt like I didn't get a job because I was black the NAACP would have my back.

As a white boy, I don't have those options. If I want to go to college on someone else's dime, I better work my ass off in HS. If I don't get a job due to AA, tough shit. I better get a good lawyer to fight that one, on my own dime.

As a country we need to stop worrying so much about skin color. Obama winning the presidency is a step in that direction, yet I fear it will empower blacks to "rub whiteys nose in it".

A person of color can succeed in the US without assistance from anyone if they just put their mind to it. Stay the course in HS, go to college and get a good job. You may not be a millionaire, but then most white folks aren't either. :)

[Saydrah]

Jaded, that post sounded pretty racist, I have to say. Do you really think your life would be easier if you were a black man? Oh, boo hoo, you're a heterosexual white male. Lord knows heterosexual white males have no power or privilege in this world! Why, only the vast majority of elected representatives in all states, 43 out of 44 presidents, the vast majority of CEOs and CFOs, and most of the top 1% of earners, are heterosexual white males! Gee, what an underprivileged group you represent. Quick, let me get my picket signs! We'll protest this horrific discrimination!

The ACLU will help a person of any race who feels they have been discriminated against. Yes, you too, you poor long-suffering HWM. And if you really want an organization to protect you because of your race, there are plenty of white power groups out there-- you might have to shave your head, though.

This country was built by unpaid and underpaid labor by racial minorities, and up until less than half a century ago, it was okay to discriminate openly against people with dark skin, up to and including violence. Just because you weren't born doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that this discrimination isn't still responsible for a great deal of poverty and disadvantages. And racism still exists today, believe me-- didn't you see all the videos where people, including Democrats, openly admitted they wouldn't vote for Obama because of his race?

Barack Obama has said that affirmative action is probably not necessary for families like his own and children like his daughters who enjoy a fairly easy life and are not suffering from the lasting effects of institutionalized racism, and that it probably IS necessary to create AA-like programs that help people of all races who started life at a disadvantage due to poverty or other factors. I agree with that. But that doesn't mean that racism is dead, our society is perfect, and we can end all programs that help minorities get a leg up.

When our Congress, our corporate boardrooms, our universities, our Senate, all look like America, rather than a good old boys' club, then we can end affirmative action once and for all. For now, we still do need to tip the scales a little bit in favor of qualified, hard-working minorities who started out at a disadvantage, as well as in favor of white people who have worked hard to lift themselves out of poverty, rather than being born into the middle class or above.

If you don't believe that discrimination against minorities still exists today, I challenge you to experiment: You can't turn black for a week, but you can go to your nearest Pride shop and buy yourself some rainbow and pink shirts and jewelry. Live as a gay man for a week. Working at a car shop, I bet you'll see some discrimination within a day. My best friend is gay and when he managed a movie theater, he very regularly had customers refuse to speak to him or acknowledge that he as MOD was the sole person capable of handling their complaint. I quote one real asshole: "He can't be the manager. I want to talk to a PERSON who is a manager here, not a fag."

Yes, you have to rely on yourself to get all the things you mentioned-- but you can do it without being told that because of your race or sexual orientation, not only will you not be getting those things, you are not even a PERSON.

[Jadedcarguy]

Saydrah, you're seeing racism where there isn't any. My point is that we will never be truly equal until we stop using skin color as a qualifier or disqualifier.

[The Shadow]

Saydrah, I don't necessarily agree with everything Jadedcarguy said. In fact, I thought his post sounded pretty knee-jerk and reactionary in a lot of ways. But I wanted to make a few points on some of the things you said.

First off, I'm also a white heterosexual male and I also come from a pretty affluent, upper middle-class family background. Now I don't deny that these things definitely gave me certain advantages in life -- advantages that others didn't for pretty much the same reason -- simple fate and circumstances of birth.

But I'm also legally disabled. I am both physically *and* cognitively disabled. My physical disability is a rare muscular condition that makes my muscles weak to the effect that I tire more easily from routine physical day to day activities than most people. This, as you can imagine, rules out a significant number of jobs that I can do. I also have ADD accompanied with learning disabilities which narrows things down even more. It's also a huge reason why in spite of a high IQ, I only have two years of university and it doesn't look at this point that I'm ever going to complete it. These factors play a huge role in my life, meaning whatever advantages privileges in life I have simply by virtue of the fact that I'm a white heterosexual male, the overall quality of my life is significantly negated due to my disabilities. I have my own business, but the money I make from this is merely just enough to supplement my monthly disability allowance (I'm allowed earn a certain amount of my own income each month without deductions). I'm probably going to have to rely on this for the rest of my life and if I ever do any other work it would have to be part-time, as I will probably never be able to work full-time. In other words, I'm never going to be one of those rich white male fortune 500 CEOs you're talking about. I'm always going to struggle to make ends meet. I don't deny the "old boys network" you're talking about exists, but I think it's fair to say that I personally will never benefit from it.

Why, only the vast majority of elected representatives in all states, 43 out of 44 presidents, the vast majority of CEOs and CFOs, and most of the top 1% of earners, are heterosexual white males! Gee, what an underprivileged group you represent.

Yes, it's true that the vast majority of people in these postions are white males (although I would question your assertion that the majority of them are necessarily heterosexual simply due to privilege when it's probably because it's just that there are more of them than gay men). But as Warren Farrell said, why is it that when we look at the status of men, we only tend to look UP and not DOWN? Men make also make up the vast majority of people in prisons, and victims of violent crime. And yes I know that miniorities are disproporitionately represented in prison populations. But consider also that the vast majority of homeless people are white males interestingly enough. At least this has been my observation of the two major cities I've lived in (Toronto and Vancouver) for most of my life, as well as every other major city I've visited in North America.

When our Congress, our corporate boardrooms, our universities, our Senate, all look like America, rather than a good old boys' club, then we can end affirmative action once and for all.

Guess what...things may be a lot closer to that ideal now than you realize...

In terms of academic achievement, females are surpassing males at every level. Some things to consider...

57% of college populations are now female. They make up the majority of populations on most camupuses and for every 100 women who earn a bachelor's degree, only 73 men get one. Another article which highlights some interesting facts:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/124402.html

According to projections by the National Center for Education Statistics, in 2017 half again as many women as men will earn bachelor's degrees. In the early 1990s, six women graduated from college for every five men who did so; today, the ratio is about 4-to-3. A decade from now, it will be 3-to-2—and rising, on current trends...

And:

the result was a new educational gender gap, this time favoring women. There is little sign that it will close: Projections by the National Center for Education Statistics show a 22 percent increase in female college enrollment between 2005 and 2016, compared with only a 10 percent increase for men...

And:

what we are talking about, in all likelihood, is an America where women are better educated than men and where education matters more than ever. Put those facts together, and you get some implications worth pondering....

And:

Look for that gap to widen. A generation from now, the female lawyer with her male assistant will be the cliché. Look for women to outnumber men in many elite professions, and potentially in the political system that the professions feed. (The election of a female president is a question of when, not whether.)


OK I selected the quotes from article which I felt were most relevant and for the sake of brevity, but I was very careful not to take anything out of context. You can read the entire article for yourself at the link I provided if you want. And to be fair, the article does make a point of saying that these things don't necessarily mean that men will vanish into underclass status. My point was simply the overall picuture of those who are privileged and those who aren't has many variables and factors at work, and thus may be a lot more complex than some people would have us believe.

[Jadedcarguy]

........knee-jerk and reactionary..........

Maybe a little. I think that illustrates my frustration with this subject though.

[The Shadow]

Well I think this thread has strayed a little bit from what "this subject" originally was about. :) But that's OK, I probably shouldn't have expected to get a whole lot of mileage out of the original topic anyway, so I don't mind if it takes a different direction. I do see your point though.

[Saydrah]

Shadow, just FYI, I do count people with disabilities as an underprivileged minority deserving affirmative action programs-- possibly much MORE so than racial minorities. I presumed that was implied in my post, but if not: I actually work in a disability-related field, and I've also been an active ally to the disability community since childhood. One of my father's closest friends and sort of an extra uncle to me is a man with post-polio syndrome who's the chairman of the board of my state's largest disability rights advocacy organization. I have memories of being six years old on Joe's lap on his powerchair scolding a Congressman for voting against a measure that would have helped people with disabilities leave institutions to live independently.

In my office we have a full-time wheelchair user with a spinal cord injury who's also an MD (he's the founder of the company), two people with MS, and another full-time wheelchair user due to SCI who comes to work with his service dog. We were hoping to hire a girl who has Autism recently, but she accepted another offer-- bummer :(

[anriana]

The "race card" threads annoy me - luckily most people label them so I can just avoid them!

[Jadedcarguy]

I do see your point though.

Thanks. I can sometimes get ranty. :o

And Saydrah, my post that you took offense to is not coming from a racist point of view. If there's any particular part of it you'd like me to clarify I'd be more than happy to.

[Slytovhand]

I is suspecting that the main bone of the (now) topic is that it's not that such programs exist, but how they are 'managed'.

I'll be dull and boring, and keep using the same example I always bring out. Aboriginal person decides he wants to be a mechanic. He doesn't have the grades, so he 'pulls the race card', and gets into the course as an ATSI student (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander) - fully funded scholarship. He pulls out of the course only a month or 2 in - thus meaning someone else was unable to get into the course, and it was too late to start it from that point. Said Aboriginal student just couldn't deal with it. Even though academically this was already known, he still got in based purely on race.

Similarly, I knew when I was on the dole, if I desperately needed social security money, I'd have to run through hoops. I also know, that if I was ATSI, then I'd get that money pretty much straight away.

So - that raises the question... was I in any lesser need than anyone else, at that time?

When a person is in need, then a person is in need - and race, creed, colour, sex, etc etc etc, should have no bearing on the subject (although... if you've put yourself in that place of need deliberately, then that's a different matter, IMHO... and that's a H for Honest - not Humble :p)

So what JC said is still quite correct... but so is what Saydrah and Shadow have said. Just depends on the angle you look at it from....

[powerboy]

What really gets me, is when someone replys to a thread. By saying that "The Race Card" has expired. I know it is all said in great fun and for laughs. But it is not funny.

[Rapscallion]

Oddly enough, I think it is. What are the reasons you think it's not funny?

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

What really gets me, is when someone replys to a thread. By saying that "The Race Card" has expired. I know it is all said in great fun and for laughs. But it is not funny.

No Comprende....

[katie kaboom]

What really gets me, is when someone replys to a thread. By saying that "The Race Card" has expired. I know it is all said in great fun and for laughs. But it is not funny.

hmmm, i actually think it's kind of clever. But to each his own i suppose.

[Slytovhand]

DW... I get it now...

[Sylvia727]

Personally, I find "I'm sorry, but your race card has been declined. Do you have another form of entitlement you'd like to use?" to be amusing; not just funny, but thought-provoking. It gets the point across without addressing the question of racial relations as a whole, but merely in regards to the specific situation. In other words, it points out the sucky customer as an entitlement whore seeking out any excuse, instead of focusing on the validity of racial discrimination as a general topic.

[Boozy]

"I'm sorry, but your race card has been declined. Do you have another form of entitlement you'd like to use?"

Yeah, that one made me laugh out loud.

You're calling them out on their crap but couching it in polite customer service talk. I think I'd be able to get away with that one, were I ever to find myself in such a situation.

[The Shadow]

Well I see this thread has taken a bit of a different direction than what I intended. I know it's old, but I thought I would breathe new life into it after I found an interesting article on the internet. But first I should say something about this...


In a few extremely rare cases, yes.

A local restaurant got busted a few years back for denying tables to black people. They got them by doing what they call a "sandwich." They sent a black person in, who was told there were no tables. Then they sent a white person in, who was seated without a problem. Then they sent another black person in, who was again told there were no tables.

Surprisingly, they're still in business.


If they're still in business, then yes that IS amazing!:eek: And that kind of blatant overt racism is extremely rare (or at least I would hope it is).

But those aren't the sort of incidents I meant. I was referring to the more subtle, insidious ones in which someone isn't conscious of the fact that their behaviour is racist - ie; watching black customers in a store more intently than white ones.

Here's the article, with a few of the more pertinent bits quoted:

What Kind of Card is Race (http://www.zcommunications.org/what-kind-of-card-is-race-by-tim-wise)

That bringing up racism (even with copious documentation) is far from an effective “card” to play in order to garner sympathy, is evidenced by the way in which few people even become aware of the studies confirming its existence. How many Americans do you figure have even heard, for example, that black youth arrested for drug possession for the first time are incarcerated at a rate that is forty-eight times greater than the rate for white youth, even when all other factors surrounding the crime are identical?

How many have heard that persons with “white sounding names,” according to a massive national study, are fifty percent more likely to be called back for a job interview than those with “black sounding” names, even when all other credentials are the same?

How many know that white men with a criminal record are slightly more likely to be called back for a job interview than black men without one, even when the men are equally qualified, and present themselves to potential employers in an identical fashion?

And...

Perhaps this is why, contrary to popular belief, research indicates that people of color are actually reluctant to allege racism, be it on the job, or in schools, or anywhere else. Far from “playing the race card” at the drop of a hat, it is actually the case (again, according to scholarly investigation, as opposed to the conventional wisdom of the white public), that black and brown folks typically “stuff” their experiences with discrimination and racism, only making an allegation of such treatment after many, many incidents have transpired, about which they said nothing for fear of being ignored or attacked (10).Precisely because white denial has long trumped claims of racism, people of color tend to underreport their experiences with racial bias, rather than exaggerate them. Again,when it comes to playing a race card, it is more accurate to say that whites are the dealers with the loaded decks, shooting down any evidence of racism as little more than the fantasies of unhinged blacks, unwilling to take personal responsibility for their own problems in life.

And...

what does it say about white rationality and white collective sanity, that in 1963–at a time when in retrospect all would agree racism was rampant in the United States, and before the passage of modern civil rights legislation–nearly two-thirds of whites, when polled, said they believed blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities–almost the same number as say this now, some forty-plus years later? What does it suggest about the extent of white folks’ disconnection from the real world, that in 1962, eighty-five percent of whites said black children had just as good a chance as white children to get a good education in their communities (12)? Or that in May, 1968, seventy percent of whites said that blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities, while only seventeen percent said blacks were treated “not very well” and only 3.5 percent said blacks were treated badly?

....

In other words, even when racism was, by virtually all accounts (looking backward in time), institutionalized, white folks were convinced there was no real problem. Indeed, even forty years ago, whites were more likely to think that blacks had better opportunities, than to believe the opposite (and obviously accurate) thing: namely, that whites were advantaged in every realm of American life.

[smileyeagle1021]

You can't turn black for a week, but you can go to your nearest Pride shop and buy yourself some rainbow and pink shirts and jewelry. Live as a gay man for a week.

Please don't take her advise... please don't dress up in rainbow and pink (which, OK, I'll admit to sometimes wearing for fun, but not a daily thing).
If you really want to live a week as a gay man, start every conversation by asking yourself "how am I going to get out of explaining my relationship if the conversation turns to that... do I even have to get out of it... is that person going to run to the boss and rat me out... is the boss going to fire me for it (which btw is still legal in nearly half the states)... would that change how everyone treats me..."

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

If I let you step on my shoulders to get onto a high ledge, shouldn't you extend a hand to help me up next?

This country could not have become so wealthy and powerful so fast without slavery, and people are still alive today who suffered from Jim Crow laws when they tried to get an education, a job, and a life that allowed them to take advantage of that wealth and power.

So I do think some affirmative action is a good idea in order to extend the benefits of a country built on the backs of racial minorities to those same racial minorities today. Do I know exactly what that should look like? No. I'm not an expert on the subject. However, when the people who are put forth plans-- for example, a plan to help minorities start a business-- I'll support them.

Ok, I can see that and the way you put it is a valid point. If "If I let you step on my shoulders to get onto a high ledge, shouldn't you extend a hand to help me up next?"

But what about me? No one in my family has ever owned slaves. As a matter of fact, from the time America was founded until just before WWII, no member of my ancestors ever set foot in the US. I am only Second Generation, Born in the US, American.

Even if that were not the case, there are American families who were alive during the Slave Years who had nothing to do with slavery.

So how do you put in place a system of affirmative action that must be paid for by taxes that doesn't levy a higher tax burden to those innocent of the slave trade?

To me that's a bit like a family suing me for reparation because my grandfather shot their grandfather during the Korean War. Why should I be expected to be responsible for something that happened long before I was a glint in the milkman's eye?

[smileyeagle1021]

But what about me? No one in my family has ever owned slaves. As a matter of fact, from the time America was founded until just before WWII, no member of my ancestors ever set foot in the US. I am only Second Generation, Born in the US, American.



My mom has a story from when she was in college (she's second generation), a black student came up to her and demanded to borrow her car as part of her reparations for slavery. My mom went Erin Brockovich on her and pointed out that her family hadn't even come to the United States until 1920, and that during the civil war her ancestors were in Scotland, a nation that did not support England's politicians who were considering aiding the confederacy.

[Plaidman]

Perhaps this is why, contrary to popular belief, research indicates that people of color are actually reluctant to allege racism, be it on the job, or in schools, or anywhere else. Far from “playing the race card” at the drop of a hat, it is actually the case (again, according to scholarly investigation, as opposed to the conventional wisdom of the white public), that black and brown folks typically “stuff” their experiences with discrimination and racism, only making an allegation of such treatment after many, many incidents have transpired, about which they said nothing for fear of being ignored or attacked






HA HA HA HA HA AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!! That is the biggest full of crap ever.

Or maybe I'm just one of the unlucky ones that just happened to have only customers that do do it at the drop of a hat.

I mean, I wont' give a list, but I was called racist for drinking fucking SODA at work. Because that MEANT I was watching him, because why else would I be drinking soda at work.

Maybe because you are a wannabe thief, who was attempting to stuff condoms in your pocket, but gave up after I told you to stop trying to open the packaging.


Or the the time I wouldn't hand over $100 dollars in lottery before the guy paid. I mean, I must be racist. Why else would he be screaming that?


Not putting cartons of cigs on the counter? Yep. Plaidman is one big racist bastard, seeing as he does that to everybody, regardless of skin color.

Not letting her use bathroom despite several signs saying NO RESTROOMS, not EVEN FOR CUSTOMERS. Even though I told her the donut shop that is twenty feet from our store does have a public bathroom? Yep. I am so racist.

Let's not forget the time I card people for beer or cigs. I'm such a racist asshole to dare do my job.


Hell, even filling out incident reports on theft, if a customer dares see me writing one that says RACE: Black, OMG! So racist, because I'm writing on a man that stole who was black, that is such a total racist attack because the man must have never stolen, and I'm just saying he did because he is black. (Despite it being on camera).



No. Me? I must be racist. Otherwise, none of the above would never happen if people of other racists are very unwilling to claim the race card unless they were given very good proof that I was racist.



I mean, I learned something. All those times of doing my job. All those times of writing reports on theft. All those times of calling police. It was because I hate people of other races besides me. Wow.



(If anyone hadn't realized it by now, I'm being very sarcastic).

[ebonyknight]

Well let me chime in. I think it is a matter of perspective. For quite a few black people as ridiculous these stories sound to you of a "lighter" complexion, they may legitimately believe it's true.

My father would constantly tell me about how never to trust white people, this and that. Most of the time I ignored him, because I have never had any issues. But sometimes your parents teachings (as wrong or right as the may be) stick with you. I have had plenty of times I believe that I have been wronged because of my skin color.

Difference between me and some of my darker cousins, is that I live fairly well, so I blow it off. Other "loud" people, do not have it as well and were brought up to stand up for themselves or they did without. Similar to if you don't eat fast enough in a large family, you might go a little hungry.

Now....this happened to me this weekend at Colonial Williamsburg in Virginia. The town was having historical recreation events. People dressed up in period garb, recreating history, treating the customers as if they were also "in period". No this isn't going where you think it's going. ;)

I was watching some such performance outdoors. It was hot and sunny and the benches were taken up. So I decided to plop myself down on an incline on a slight hill, under the shade of a tree. So I am sitting there watching the performance and this white lady with two children walks up. She stands in front of me, looks back at me and continues to stand directly in front of my view, completely blocking my view of the person acting?!?!?

I am puzzled. I in a moderately toned voice say "ma'am". She looks at me and I motion with two fingers that she is blocking me. She doesn't apologize and moves over three or four steps, getting out of my line of sight. After a minute she turns and asks if I can see. I nod. After a few minutes she leaves.

Now I have to ask myself, did she see me and saw a black person and decide that he won't say anything to me and dismiss me or was she just a generally rude person? I must admit, I believe that race had something to do with it as knee jerk as it sounds. To you, your first assumption probably would be just plain rudeness with no racial overtones. Truth is never absolute, it's about perception.

Now, earlier that day. I was checking into the hotel. The agents were busy and I saw a rather large black woman looking at brochures off to the side. I walked up off to the side of her and one of the clerks called out to me that she could help. I walked up and got help. The lady that was "waiting" then blurted out very loudly, "Am I not here??? Am I not going to be helped??".

From my perspective that was uncalled for, because to me it looked like she was just browsing not waiting in line (as was the same impression that the clerks had). I am pretty sure I know what the lady was thinking by her loudness and attitude. Rude and uncalled for. BUT to her, I am sure she thought she was being racially slighted, despite the fact that I was just helped. Again, logically not sound.

My point being from all of this, is that don't assume that when someone pulls the race card, they are just trying to "get over", but may have a (excuse the pun) colored view of life. Or they may feel that they have been racially slighted. Considering the messages we get from the media and news in this country, it's not hard to have a jaded view of whites.

[Plaidman]

I never said racism doesn't exist. Some of the stories you mentioned made me think racism did have a part in it.


But how is it, that if I refuse to break a law makes me a racist?

How does it make me a racist, if I call you on commiting a crime WHILE YOUR DOING IT.

How does it make me a racist, for DRINKING A GODDAMN SODA?!

How does it make me a racist, for not giving someone a hundred dollars in lottery, without him giving anything to me that was even a hint of payment?

Racism does exist. Even in minor forms. But if your screaming at a clerk for doing his job, if your screaming at a kid for daring to run ahead of you because it's running towards candy and not getting in line, if you belive every single action every does is a direct attack on you because of your skin color, then you never ever had real racism ever dealt with you. I've talked to people of other races, from other countries, where they will be killed on sight because of their race. I've had people require to hide their religion, or they will be tortured. (Religous hate is the same as Racism to me). So no, if you think that the clerk is drinking a soda, or treating everyone the same by following the law of carding you, it is not racism to do that. It would be racism to allow you to break the law and buy beer at 16 years old because the poor clerk is so afraid of being labled a racist for daring to card you.


Their is a world of difference between real racism, and people doing everyday acts.

[Hyena Dandy]

See, I agree, there are people who will assume that following company policy is racist. And if they've been brought up to believe that they're going to be discriminated against because they're black, so that's how they're behaving, they're being racist. Its tiptoeing around the issue to say that the assumption isn't racist.

And Ebony's story raises an intriguing point. People frequently do behave that way because they've been raised to behave that way. If you've been raised to assume you'll be discriminated against by white people, then you've been given a racist upbringing, just the same as if you've been raised to believe black people are inferior. I don't necessarily assume someone who plays the race card is trying to get one over on me. They might very well assume that I'm discriminating against them. Its a racist behavior.

As far as I'm concerned, making any decision based on race is a racist behavior. Whether that's to assume you've been discriminated against, or the decision to make that discrimination. If you wouldn't make the same assumption of the person was the same race as you, then its racist. But there's two caveats

1) You might really feel discriminated against, which is why I never think people are trying to put one over on me.

and

2) You're sometimes right.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Please allow me to respond in the following way:

1) Just because you feel discriminated against, doesn't mean it's actually happening.

and

2) If I shoot someone once a week, I'll eventually shoot someone that deserves to be shot. That in no way excuses shooting people almost at random, though.

[Hyena Dandy]

Please allow me to respond in the following way:

1) Just because you feel discriminated against, doesn't mean it's actually happening.

and

2) If I shoot someone once a week, I'll eventually shoot someone that deserves to be shot. That in no way excuses shooting people almost at random, though.

Oh, I was in no way trying to say that its JUSTIFIED. I was just saying why it continues happening.

[ebonyknight]

I am assuming that your response was directed towards me.

I never said racism doesn't exist. Some of the stories you mentioned made me think racism did have a part in it.

Logically, I think the woman standing in front of me wasn't racism. Just an act of rudeness. But I do think that if I was another white person, she may not have acted so "unthoughtful". Does that make it racism? Depends on how you define "racism" vs prejudice.


But how is it, that if I refuse to break a law makes me a racist?

How does it make me a racist, if I call you on commiting a crime WHILE YOUR DOING IT.

How does it make me a racist, for DRINKING A GODDAMN SODA?!

How does it make me a racist, for not giving someone a hundred dollars in lottery, without him giving anything to me that was even a hint of payment?

Racism does exist. Even in minor forms. But if your screaming at a clerk for doing his job, if your screaming at a kid for daring to run ahead of you because it's running towards candy and not getting in line, if you belive every single action every does is a direct attack on you because of your skin color, then you never ever had real racism ever dealt with you. I've talked to people of other races, from other countries, where they will be killed on sight because of their race. I've had people require to hide their religion, or they will be tortured. (Religous hate is the same as Racism to me). So no, if you think that the clerk is drinking a soda, or treating everyone the same by following the law of carding you, it is not racism to do that. It would be racism to allow you to break the law and buy beer at 16 years old because the poor clerk is so afraid of being labled a racist for daring to card you.


Their is a world of difference between real racism, and people doing everyday acts.

It's obvious you are very angry about this. My original point was for one of understanding. Not necessarily, acceptance, but of some empathy.

These people don't know you and (despite their statements to the contrary) are not personally attacking you. They were overall, just raised wrong. They may have had a bad day. They may have just been the victim of legitimate racism lately and you were just a convenient scapegoat. Any number of things.

My point is, that sometimes you just have to let things roll off your back, especially when you deal with the public. Just as I did when that woman "slighted" me. I have seen people act most irrationally when food is involved. I think that servers and people in the fast food industry will agree. When food is involved, people can act very irrationally, act just as despicably, but you don't tend to take that as personally as someone "playing the race card".

Case in point, later during my stay I saw that same loud, black lady again and she acted very cordially and polite under other circumstances when I saw her again.

It's very EASY to get a jaded view of people. Just as that woman assumed that she was being discriminated against because she was slighted, it is just as easy for you to become jaded because of these (I assume few) incidents. I don't like how I was treated. She didn't like how she was treated and you don't like how you were treated. But it comes down to the fact that you have a job where you (inevitably) will deal with assholes, difficult people and clueless people.

If you see people as just that PEOPLE (not as "insert your label here"), as complex, irrational and illogical as they may be, then it is easier to get through the day and not let it get to you. Are there people who are assholes, racist, race card players and race baiters, yes. REGARDLESS of what you do or don't do, that ain't gonna change. The question is are you going to let these petty people and attitudes get to you? Well?

The President KNOWS there are plenty of people who don't recognize him as President because of one simple fact. They see him as a nigger. They may say that it's because he's a Muslim or that he doesn't have a birth certificate or he led us into Afghanistan, etc, but we know that at least some of those irrational people just see him as one regardless of his status or accomplishments. BUT, I am sure that he doesn't let it cloud his judgment or get to him, because it's 1. unproductive, 2. gets in the way of getting the job done and 3. (Most importantly) Can ruin your positive outlook on life.

Example of people being people. I didn't vote for Obama...surprised? I voted third party because I believed that he would just be the same old politician as the rest and I was right. In fact, he's turning out worse than Bush in some respects.

Don't let people turn you bitter. I have seen it happen more often than I like.

[Exaspera]

I find this thread to be both interesting and insightful!

When I lived in San Antonio (white 45%, Hispanic 55%), I was told by a Hispanic woman who headed a non-profit there that All white people were racist because they had all of the power, and that all minorities weren't racist at all. She doesn't know a thing about me! That was racist in itself!

I guess that about the only thing I dislike intensely (hate taking too much energy) is entitlement.

[Plaidman]

It's obvious you are very angry about this. My original point was for one of understanding. Not necessarily, acceptance, but of some empathy.

These people don't know you and (despite their statements to the contrary) are not personally attacking you. They were overall, just raised wrong. They may have had a bad day. They may have just been the victim of legitimate racism lately and you were just a convenient scapegoat. Any number of things..

Right. So they very thing they are angry about, they decide to use that acts against me? Even though I did nothing to them to trigger that? Being raise /wrong/ is no excuse. Sorry. People in this day and age do know the difference between right and wrong, and can choose to go against what they are /raised/ to do. If everyone was required to do how they were /raised/ then we'd never have any process. In anycase, to have some empathy towards them? Why? They have none towards me. I have plenty as it was to give to others. I'm very empathic, sometimes too much. (Try going nuts as a kid because you honestly belived every one of your toys were alive, and their feelings were constanly being hurt because you wouldn't play with them, and so you spent vast majority of time trying to play with every single toy so they wouldn't be hurt).
There are legitimate racists out there. Then there are people who belive every fucking /slight/ or better yet, lack of power over anything MUST be a racist attack on them. Such as various asshole customers who belive that since they are a different race then me, I must never ask for their ID, and they are perfectly legally allowed to buy beer at 15 years old. Because If I dare ask for their ID, it's because I'm racist and that's not allowed!






Example of people being people. I didn't vote for Obama...surprised? I voted third party because I believed that he would just be the same old politician as the rest and I was right. In fact, he's turning out worse than Bush in some respects..

Wasn't aware that all black people were required to Vote for Obama. No. I'm not surprised at all. You are not the first, nor the only black person to not vote for Obama. A family member voted for McCain. Are you surprised by that? Or are you more surprised that a black woman would marry a white guy? She lost alot of respect from her friends and blood family for daring to vote for someone other then Obama. Despite her always have been a republican.


Don't let people turn you bitter. I have seen it happen more often than I like.

Far too late for that, if you have read any of my various posts, you already know how much people have made me bitter.


I don't know racism in terms of being anything other then white. I have dealt with various races hating me for being white. But I've had far far more people hate me based on how I look. Stares, look of disgust, like I'm somekind of contagious creature that is beneath them for the simple fact I have many tumors covering me, and one eye that is much larger then the other.

I do know stories of racism from family though. One would turn in papers and just get an F. Even though the answers were exactly the same answers as the person who got all the same. The teacher flat out told her (Though this was over twenty years ago) that her kind never got any right, so he wasn't even going to waste his time looking at it.

Or even better, my step mom would go in to a fancysmacy restraunt once while dad was parking the car and ask for a table for 4. Waiter told her it be at least an hour if not more, as they were very very busy and many many people were in line. She said fine, she'll go somewhere else. Her husband, (My father) came in and ask for a table of four, and he was seated right away. He called in stepmom to bring in the kids, and the waiter tried to stop her by telling her that again, very busy. She mentioned it's no problem as her husband got a table and sat down next to dad with thier kids. (I wish I was there to see that asshole's face when he saw that). That above is a fairly common thing too. (They had a name for it, I forget it)

So no. Me asking for someone ID is not a racist act, it should never even be thought as racism.

Me writing a incident report because a black man ran out with a couple of 12 packs of beer is not me being racist and shouldn't be thought of it.

So no. I have no fucking /empathy/ for assholes who decide to try to get free stuff, or get me into trouble because I breath wrong to them and it racist towards them. These people do NOT know what racism is at all, if they think those acts are what people fought to stop two centries ago. If they were raised to proclaim YOUR RACIST at every person of different color because they aren't treated like they are Gods, then they are the racists themselves, and don't deserve any amount of respect from me at all.

I treat all people with respect and care, because I KNOW first hand what its like to be treated like shit because of how one looks. So if your coming to me with an asshole behavior, then I know that your just an asshole, and don't deserve to be treated any better.


Also: Don't give any of that bullshit about "You need to earn their respect".
Because honestly? That is the stupidest thing ever muttered, because that always means that "I get to treat you like shit, until I think your worthy of being treated otherwise"

Rather then the otherwise of "I'll be awesome to you, until you act like a shithead, then I'll lose respect for you" which is how it's suppose to be. Since they treat me like shit, I'm not going to even pretend to care about them.

[The Shadow]

Here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H5rSKECZys) from ABC's What Would You Do? called "Shopping While Black".

It's a dramatization, sure. But it's based on the real experiences of people of colour.

[blas87]

I've been accused of being racist because I find myself only attracted to white males. So I'm used to it. If you want to call it racist, fine by me. I consider it more of a preference, like blondes or brunettes, skinny people or larger people.

Not that I don't like darker colored skin, in fact I go out of my own way to cover my natural flourescent skin, I just don't find myself attracted to men of other races or backgrounds.

[ZedOmega]

You'd be surprised how playing the race card and just being a plain old dick go hand-in-hand, though. It's happened more times over my long and not-so-illustrious job history than I care to think about.

The first incident was back when I was a CSR for a gas station whose name rhymes with 'hex, mon'. I caught an old black woman with a beer in her pocket as she was walking out. The short of the story was that I asked her to wait where she was for a moment while I checked our cooler, found nothing missing, and sure enough, she blew up. Racist accusations, which I tried to counter by asking who the hell walks into a convenience store with an unopened beer in their pocket. Eventually it escalated to a point where my coworker was laughing at the sheer absurdity of it all (which was her mistake right there) and the woman turning around and saying something along the lines of 'you won't think it's funny when someone shoots your ass'. That's about the point the police showed up. I explained what happened, she got hauled off in handcuffs, and they brought her back inside long enough for me to verbally ban her from the store.

Another incident that sticks out in my mind was one from a couple of years ago at the bar. It happened before I showed up for work, but my manager was nice enough to let me know what happened. Someone showed up right when we opened, and I don't know how frequently he was ordering and finishing his drinks, but eventually he got asked to leave for severe drunkenness. He blurted out an accusation of racism toward Mexicans, which was funny as hell because half the staff and most of our customers in the bar at the time are Mexican. The crowd started laughing at him and he took off, pissed.

I don't know what it is about people that makes them throw down a race card when they don't get their way. Usually it fails, though, and when I get it played on me, the conversation always ends like this:

SC: You're a fucking racist!
Me: I'm not racist, I'm just prejudiced against assholes. Have a nice get the fuck out.

[Canarr]

Not race as a topic, but male/female double standard; so I figured, that should fit here as well.

In a thread over at CS on a male customer propositioning a female cashier, there was a comment on how that's inappropriate to do/say to a female cashier. Female. So, harassing a male is okay?

I thought about that a bit, and I feel that harassment of men is something that's not really seen in our society - meaning, people don't believe it happens. It's like the old joke:

What's a man talking dirty to a woman? Harassment.
What's a woman talking dirty to a man? $3,99 a minute.

So, what do you think? Is that so, or am I wrong? Is it only harassment when it's happening to a woman, and men should just be glad they're getting female attention?

[Mytical]

First off let me say..for all purposes I look like a white male. I am straight, and I am middle aged. I have yet to see this 'privilege' everybody tells me white, middle aged, heterosexuals have. Anywhere.

My family was dirt poor when I was growing up. We have/had no 'contacts' of rich people we could go to if we were in need. To get a job, or be given ANYTHING for that matter. What we had, we had to fight and scratch for it. Even as children we were doing the 'sunup to sundown' work thing (farm). I never asked for any assistance of any kind.

I can now get on disability (government had already said "you qualify" I told them to stuff the monthly payments). I am actually a descendant of the Blackfoot (Native American Tribe), but I just don't look it.

I am always getting the "You white people owe us.." <fill in the blank>.

Did bad things happen? Absolutely. Including to my people. I don't expect the world to 'owe' me for it, however. Anybody remember how some of the Native Americans were treated? Anybody? It's in the past, and not a person alive today had anything to do with it. So why would they owe me anything?

Because I LOOK white though, I can tell you first hand..the playing field has shifted to being uneven the other way now. If I am as qualified as any other applicant for a job..I will not get it. Doesn't matter if they are a minority, or female. It just won't happen.

Because I am not a member of the 'boys club' (ie the elite wealthy), nor do I pull out the 'race card'. Not every white male is a member of the 'boys club' that everybody think makes us privileged. Some whites are very poor, I know shocking right?

I am not a racist, nor a sexist. I would love a totally even playing field. I just have nothing to do with any slavery or any of holding women back. I've never done anything to anybody. Yet I get all kinds of flack for things that happened. I get discriminated against..though nobody will ever admit it, because of my perceived race, and my actual sex. Because hey..I have that boys club I can go to to get what I need. Right?

Racism and sexism do exist even today. Sometimes to the point where it is reversed. I know a LOT of people will hate me for these comments. I accept that. Equal rights is absolutely the right thing, but just make sure that it doesn't go too far the OTHER way either.

[KnitShoni]

Problem is, Mytical, many who are not/don't look white will just say, "welcome to the club." They don't understand that, just because it's happening to white (looking) people now doesn't automatically make it OK. They will be looking at it from the perspective of, "Well, now that it's happening to you guys, maybe you won't be so quick to do it to us."

[Eisa]

Not race as a topic, but male/female double standard; so I figured, that should fit here as well.

In a thread over at CS on a male customer propositioning a female cashier, there was a comment on how that's inappropriate to do/say to a female cashier. Female. So, harassing a male is okay?

I thought about that a bit, and I feel that harassment of men is something that's not really seen in our society - meaning, people don't believe it happens. It's like the old joke:

What's a man talking dirty to a woman? Harassment.
What's a woman talking dirty to a man? $3,99 a minute.

So, what do you think? Is that so, or am I wrong? Is it only harassment when it's happening to a woman, and men should just be glad they're getting female attention?


It's harassment no matter who it happens to. I hate the double standard. I mean, I'm a girl, too, but I don't think it's fair at all that it's seemingly "ok" in society to harass a guy. Hey, just like girls can feel uncomfortable and not want it...guys can feel the SAME WAY. Sheesh. :p

[draco664]

I'll be dull and boring, and keep using the same example I always bring out. Aboriginal person decides he wants to be a mechanic. He doesn't have the grades, so he 'pulls the race card', and gets into the course as an ATSI student (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander) - fully funded scholarship. He pulls out of the course only a month or 2 in - thus meaning someone else was unable to get into the course, and it was too late to start it from that point. Said Aboriginal student just couldn't deal with it. Even though academically this was already known, he still got in based purely on race.

Similarly, I knew when I was on the dole, if I desperately needed social security money, I'd have to run through hoops. I also know, that if I was ATSI, then I'd get that money pretty much straight away.

So - that raises the question... was I in any lesser need than anyone else, at that time?

When a person is in need, then a person is in need - and race, creed, colour, sex, etc etc etc, should have no bearing on the subject

Well, in regards to Aboriginality and benefits, a prominent conservative columnist/blogger for Australia's biggest newspaper is being sued for columns he wrote about this very topic. Columns are here (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/column_white_is_the_new_black) and here (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion-old/white-fellas-in-the-black/story-e6frfifo-1225764532947).

Essentially, he says that there are people claiming to be Aboriginal (despite having less than a quarter of aboriginal heritage) in order to claim benefits they would not otherwise be entitled to. Ho hum, it's not anything that a lot of people already know. In my second year at university I had a class with a stunning blond-haired, blue eyed beauty, who was proud of the fact that she claimed ABStudy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_%28Australia%29#ABSTUDY).

What he is being sued for is the fact that he actually *named* some of these people, printed their photo, and listed what Aboriginal benefits they have claimed/received - one of them being a white man who received a scholarship intended for a black woman.

His point, which a lot of the "professional offense takers" have completely missed, is that resources and funds set up to assist those who really need help are being usurped by those who don't need it, simply because they can.