Obama, the white president

[Rapscallion]

I figured that title would grab your attention. I've been thinking about the massive amount of coverage about Obama being the first black president of the USA.

His father was Kenyan, his mother Caucasian. Based on that, isn't there just as much grounds for defining him as white as there is as black?

Discuss.

Rapscallion

[The Shadow]

His father was Kenyan, his mother Caucasian. Based on that, isn't there just as much grounds for defining him as white as there is as black?

I'm not sure but legally speaking there might not be. I seem to recall there was a time in the U.S when anyone with even some black ancestry in their family was legally considered black. Mulattos certainly were. Apparently it didn't matter how fair your skin was or what your hair was like, you were legally black. Granted, I think this has its origins in the days when laws about racial miscegnation were on the books and interracial marrige was illegal so I don't know if it's still around today -- and arguably irrelevant even if it is.

[Bloodsoul]

Well, then, wouldn't that just make Obama grey?

[MadMike]

We saw a comedian on the cruise ship, who briefly went into a discussion about politics, and how some people didn't like the idea of us having a black president. He went on to point out that Obama is half white, so "just vote for the half you like."

[Soapydog]

Bi-racial is the way I see it. Well, America is so hung up on black v white, it's no wonder he's considered "black". Speaking as a 'white' American with black relatives.

[Sylvia727]

I forget the numbers, but down to a certain percentage one is legally considered both. One of my friends can check "white", "black", "Hispanic", and "Native American" on any official form. She doesn't describe herself as any one race, but as mulatto (or "all of the above" if she's feeling silly). However, if she wanted to, I believe she could check only one and describe herself as that.

I suppose, since white is the predominant race in the USA and has been since her founding, that it's considered a "neutral". There's nothing special about being white; not that I think like this,but I believe that's where most people come from. Besides, when he's shown on a magazine cover with a black wife and two black daughters, who's really going to consider degrees of tone, and who's going to just fill in the blanks?

[Rapscallion]

The main reason I started this thread is because of how he's from a 50/50 mix, yet he's always described as being black. What I more despair about now is that his colour is noticed.

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

Ah Raps.. this one falls quite nicely into the discussion about him getting elected in the first place, any by whom and why they voted for him. Would he have had as many votes if he was 'white'?? I think not (but that's for the other thread...)


Ah, can't wait for the day when we have our first non-human World President :D

[BlaqueKatt]

What I more despair about now is that his colour is noticed.


I feel the same and voiced that opinion in another thread on here and was told by almost everyone I was wrong.

I feel if the only way he's remembered in history is by his skin color and not his actions-he will be in my opinion a failure as president.

[Greenday]

Why do people consider him black? Because he looks black. Pretty simple really.

[Rapscallion]

He has the same credentials for being called white - one of his parents is (I assume she still lives) white.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

But he LOOKS black. Appearance is all that matters to people.

[anriana]

But he LOOKS black. Appearance is all that matters to people.

He looks like a very typical black/white biracial person to me.

[Greenday]

All I know is, he doesn't look 100% white, and to a lot of people, that means he's not white at all.

[AdminAssistant]

He has the same credentials for being called white - one of his parents is (I assume she still lives) white.

His (white) mother died some years ago from cancer.

[Slytovhand]

I feel if the only way he's remembered in history is by his skin color and not his actions-he will be in my opinion a failure as president.

Unfortunately BK, that's probably how he will go down in history. I don't think that will make him a failure though. After all, what do people remember of Clinton? Ooh - sexscandal... well, what about everything else he did in his term?? Likewise, Nixon is only remembered for 1 thing... it's the way of humanity.

Don't all politicians only want to leave with 1 thing to be remembered for? That will be his (well - unless he brings about either world peace or WWIII)

[daleduke17]

Here, let's put an end to this:

Obama is the President elect. Big fucking deal what color he is. Let's move on and see what he can do. Maybe if there would have been real political questions asked of him instead of everyone making a big deal out of his skin color, he could have been elected (or not elected) based on real experience, not intangibles.

[Saydrah]

Dale, he WAS elected based on real things, but that's not the topic here.

The reason Obama is called black is because, like all people of his generation who are dark-skinned, his life story shares a common thread with other black Americans, usually called the "Black experience," although that sounds kind of like a theme park ride to me.

In his first book, he talks about wrestling with whether or not to tell people his mother was white-- he felt like sometimes this was a distasteful attempt to distance himself from his father's race by advertising his mother's race-- like "Oh, no, I'm not black like THOSE people, I'm half white!"

He also discussed meeting a multiracial girl who made the opposite choice: Refused to identify as black and burst into tears when he asked her if she was going to a black students' association meeting. She was angry because she felt forced to choose between her parents' races. However, he noticed that she also avoided black people whenever possible, which reduces the sympathy I as the reader felt for her dilemma-- if she's all about not choosing, why won't she embrace her black side as well?

If he looked like his white mother, Barack wouldn't have had to make those choices, and his trip to his father's homeland might not have been so transformational for him. Appearing black shaped him as a person and as a leader. To deny that is to devalue a huge part of what made him who he is.

However, I agree with the comedian-- just vote for the half you like.

[BlaqueKatt]

Don't all politicians only want to leave with 1 thing to be remembered for? That will be his


but it's not anything he's done now is it?
that's the problem-your examples of Clinton and Nixon-were things they've DONE -not a happenstance of genetics.

better way to put it-what if he was redhead-would you consider him a failure as a president if the ONLY thing he was remembered for was being a redhead?

[Slytovhand]

BK - I presume you're just throwing arguments around here, cos I'll look at what Obama does in regards to the rest of the world.. it don't matter who it is in the White House. As I think I mentioned, over in this neck of the woods, I think there'd be slightly less of an issue of skin colour (except for aboriginals... but there is other history involved there, such as being the original 'owners' of the land - much the same as if you'd have a Native American get to president... speaking of which - how does that fit into this discussion???)


Oh - and just a thought... I wouldn't call "First Black President of the USA" a 'happenstance of genetics'... it's as Saydrah said - Appearing black shaped him as a person and as a leader.

But I certainly get the doingness of this issue. I mean, IIRC, Lincoln is remembered more for great speeches and proclomations, than for actually removing slavery itself. (now - have I just made a complete fool of myself by stuffing up my American History?? :p)

I'm not saying I like or agree with the sentiment... only expressing what I think will be a fact of life in the future (as much as the present).

[daleduke17]

Dale, he WAS elected based on real things, but that's not the topic here.


He has two whopping years of being a Senator, most of which he was gone campaigning. So, what was the "real things" he was elected on?


Appearing black shaped him as a person and as a leader.


How?

[Saydrah]

Dale, for the answer to your second question, please pick up a copy of Dreams From My Father. They can still be had used fairly cheaply even though he's now president-elect, if you look around a little. I tried to convey a sense of the book's message in my last post, but unlike Obama, I am not one of the greatest American writers of the last 100 years, so I might have failed entirely. The book gave me a much deeper understanding of the politics of race in America, why Obama's experience as a multiracial, dark-skinned man in America is different from the experiences of white men of the same age, and why Obama's election means so much to Americans who are of racial minorities.

For the first question, I'll list a few reasons, both my own and ones I heard from voters while volunteering:

-He'll restore the rest of the world's respect for the United States
-He won't give the top 1% tax breaks while hanging the rest of us out to dry
-He will create more good, American jobs that can't be outsourced
-He will reach across the aisle and do his best to heal the wounds caused by the very divisive last eight years
-He will get us out of Iraq as quickly as is safe
-He will do his best to make sure Bin Laden is captured and killed
-His experience as a community organizer means he understands the experience of poverty, how demeaning it is, how apathetic one can become when faced with a total lack of prospects to get out of poverty-- he will create programs to lift people out of poverty, not just push them farther down to save a buck
-He was the only candidate with a comprehensive plan to address the empowerment of people with disabilities, which included a promise of 100,000 federal jobs for PWDs
-He opposes affirmative action that is based solely on race, and proposes instead a system more based on need
-He will protect a woman's right to choose a safe, legal abortion
-He is a Constitutional scholar and understands and will defend our Constitution
-He will push for development of alternative fuels, not just more and more drilling


I could go on, but I'll close with a final note: There's only one experience in the world that could prepare a person to be President, and that's the presidency. Since none of the candidates in the race had been President previously, I considered their experience secondary to their judgment and goals. There is nothing in the world that can simulate the experience of being the leader of the free world: Not being a Governor, not the Senate, not the military, not community organizing, nothing. I feel Obama had less experience in the political system, but that meant only that he was slightly less soggy from sitting in the cesspool of corruption that has been Washington, DC for the past 8 years.

[Amethyst Hunter]

He has two whopping years of being a Senator, most of which he was gone campaigning. So, what was the "real things" he was elected on?

Actually, Obama has a healthy list of accomplishments: http://www.daily-chronicle.com/articles/2008/11/16/news/nation_and_world/doc491fcccc4fa24849053181.txt

Many of Obama’s early bills were meat-and-potatoes legislation that wouldn’t grab much attention: grants for college students, improving dams on the Mississippi River, letting people continue giving money to religious organizations during bankruptcy...

Obama’s Senate role grew, too.

He was given a high-profile assignment to help negotiate tougher ethics laws, a job that produced a spat with Republican Sen. John McCain when McCain felt the young senator had gone back on a deal. Ultimately, however, a significant ethics bill passed.

Obama and Lugar passed legislation giving the government more money and authority to clamp down on foreign weapons, including nuclear and chemical materials. Amid questions about government spending after Hurricane Katrina, Obama joined with Republican Tom Coburn of Oklahoma to give people more access to information on where their money went.

What he's done is nothing to sneeze at, especially considering Illinois politics.

As far as being a "failure" as President? I don't think so. That title belongs to the current asshole. As I said before, I don't expect Obama to be some kind of magic wand-cure or World's Greatest Prez (though I certainly wouldn't complain if he was), I just expect him not to fuck up horribly. Which I don't think he'd do - granted, he may not be able to do much (thankyouverymuch Bushit *spits*) but he's going to do the best he can with what he's got to work with. That he is already picking and assessing capable, reasonable people without psychotic ideological ties for his Cabinet is a good sign, methinks.

I voted for him because I was willing to give him a chance, based on how he has behaved himself and what his character appears to be to me - for a politician, he's pretty damn decent. I'd still have voted for him if he was white, olive, brown, or green with pink polka dots. I'm tired of the whole race thing and I do wish that America would just pull its collective head out of its ass already re: racial stuff, but I can also understand why it is a big deal to some people, therefore I don't begrudge them their joy over "the first black President."

Edit to add after seeing Saydrah's post:

I'll close with a final note: There's only one experience in the world that could prepare a person to be President, and that's the presidency. Since none of the candidates in the race had been President previously, I considered their experience secondary to their judgment and goals. There is nothing in the world that can simulate the experience of being the leader of the free world: Not being a Governor, not the Senate, not the military, not community organizing, nothing. I feel Obama had less experience in the political system, but that meant only that he was slightly less soggy from sitting in the cesspool of corruption that has been Washington, DC for the past 8 years.

That is an EXCELLENT point! *applauds*

[AFPheonix]

Also keep in mind that Obama had more national mileage than, say Lincoln did before being elected. Hoover had probably one of the more impressive resumes before being elected, and he was kind of a shitty president.
Mileage, while a good thing, is not the only thing to consider when looking at someone for a particular job.
Hell, if Obama runs the country like he did his campaign, I'll be impressed. That was one hell of a tight ship he had going there.

[Boozy]

I feel if the only way he's remembered in history is by his skin color and not his actions-he will be in my opinion a failure as president.

The US is sitting on the precipice of a depression, is fighting a war on two fronts, is in the midst of a new struggle for civil rights, has an intensely divided population, is facing a collapsing social safety net and skyrocketing poverty rate.

Whatever happens in the next four years, somehow I don't think the only thing he'll be remembered for is the colour of his skin.

[Devilboy]

I figured that title would grab your attention. I've been thinking about the massive amount of coverage about Obama being the first black president of the USA.

His father was Kenyan, his mother Caucasian. Based on that, isn't there just as much grounds for defining him as white as there is as black?

Discuss.

RapscallionTechnically, he is neither White or Black.

The proper term would be mulatto (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mulatto).

On a side note, while he isn't Black, it would be acceptable to call him "African-American" seeing that his father is Kenyan. Kenya being a country on the continent of Africa. This would mean he has a direct lineage to Africa, and not some long-lost, 5 generations ago, distant heritage.
However, "African-American" is NOT interchangeable with "Black".
If we were going to use that idiotic rationale, then I would be a "Scottish-American".... never mind the fact that neither I or anyone in my immediate family has ever stepped foot in Scotland.
I was cringing with pain the other day when I was listening to NPR. I didn't catch the whole thing (since I was driving at the time and paying a little more attention to the road) but I heard them talking about some political figure whose father and grandfather were born in Barbados.
They then labeled this man as being "African-American". Now, I'm not a geography major, but the last time I checked a map, Barbados was nowhere near Africa. I would assume that the individual in question was Black and some PC-rageous moron decided that "African-American" was the better descriptor.



Either way, Barack Obama will never go down in the history books as being mulatto (because he isn't even the first mulatto president (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08036/854713-51.stm)) since it sounds more "historic" if he is dubbed "The First Black U.S. President".

:rollseyes:

[vanima]

No matter what way you look at this...

Putting aside race or even religion (since i hear all kinds of things about THAT *rolls eyes*)

Obama can not fix everything that has gone down hill in the past 10 years. there is no way.

He will do his best I am sure but it will not be somethign that can be fixed in his first (only? we will see..) term.

I like Obama. I think we needed something different in office.. He is young.. fresh ideas..

Sometimes that is all you need.. something different..

[Boozy]

I didn't catch the whole thing (since I was driving at the time and paying a little more attention to the road) but I heard them talking about some political figure whose father and grandfather were born in Barbados.
They then labeled this man as being "African-American". Now, I'm not a geography major, but the last time I checked a map, Barbados was nowhere near Africa.

Assuming that the man in question currently lives in the US, "African-American" would be as accurate a descriptor for him as any other black American. It means American of African descent.

Barbados does not have an indigenous black population. The blacks who live in the Caribbean are the decendents of those who were brought over as slaves from Africa. So a man of African descent who has moved to the US can accurately claim that heritage and refer to himself as "African-American."

[daleduke17]

-He was the only candidate with a comprehensive plan to address the empowerment of people with disabilities, which included a promise of 100,000 federal jobs for PWDs


So, he doesn't want affirmative action for race reasons, but, will supposedly give jobs to people with disabilities? He's still doing AA, just in a different way. What disabilities are we talking about? An actual diagnosed disability or some sort of fru-fru bullshit "PC" disability (reference the thread on here about over diagnosing disabilities)?

[Amethyst Hunter]

So, he doesn't want affirmative action for race reasons, but, will supposedly give jobs to people with disabilities? He's still doing AA, just in a different way. What disabilities are we talking about? An actual diagnosed disability or some sort of fru-fru bullshit "PC" disability (reference the thread on here about over diagnosing disabilities)?

Race is something one cannot control - you're born a particular race and that's it, you're stuck with it for life. However, unlike disabilities, race does not affect one's ability to function in the world (putting aside prejudice and the mentions of that for the purposes of this topic, that is). For example, black people are no more better at sports than white people. It may seem that way because of the predominant news coverage of famous black athletes, but with the right training almost any physically fit person, black or white, can achieve at least a modest success at sports.

Disabilities are also uncontrollable in that once you've acquired them (either through being born with them or having had some kind of accident that instigated them) you're stuck with 'em and that's that. However, disabilities CAN be managed with the proper assistance, and that's why we have programs in place to ensure that those whose disabilities are not so horribly altering (ex., someone with mild retardation like Down's can get a job) are able to support themselves on a livable basis. And that I highly support.

For the record, I am ADD (attention deficit disorder) and I would personally tear the head off of anybody who dared tell me that ADD was a "fru-fru" PC excuse (yes, there are people who use it as such, but for those of us who really do have it, the last thing we want to do is make a crutch out of it - if anything, we're loath to ask for help because we're so afraid of being mocked!). ADD IS covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act. Do I expect this to grant me an instant Magical Job? No. But I am glad it exists so that I can (hopefully) have an easier time of getting employed despite the fact that my mentality interferes significantly with my ability to work.

Affirmative action, used properly, can help honest people get a much-needed break in life. It was never meant to be a handout, although I acknowledge that there are some who use it as such. But that doesn't mean that the whole idea is worthless - quite a few people out there depend on assistance like that to make a go of things, and I'm not willing to throw them under the bus just because of some bad apples in the system.

[vanima]

For the record, I am ADD (attention deficit disorder) and I would personally tear the head off of anybody who dared tell me that ADD was a "fru-fru" PC excuse (yes, there are people who use it as such, but for those of us who really do have it, the last thing we want to do is make a crutch out of it - if anything, we're loath to ask for help because we're so afraid of being mocked!). ADD IS covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act. Do I expect this to grant me an instant Magical Job? No. But I am glad it exists so that I can (hopefully) have an easier time of getting employed despite the fact that my mentality interferes significantly with my ability to work.



I hear that all the time.. but my husband has it.. and i see first hand what ADD can do to a person..

don't get me started on the meds either... hubby refuses to take them because he can take them at 5am.. midnight comes he will lay in bed and count the dots on the ceiling because it won't let him sleep

most people don't realize how had a JOB can be when you have it...

[daleduke17]

For the record, I am ADD (attention deficit disorder) and I would personally tear the head off of anybody who dared tell me that ADD was a "fru-fru" PC excuse (yes, there are people who use it as such, but for those of us who really do have it, the last thing we want to do is make a crutch out of it - if anything, we're loath to ask for help because we're so afraid of being mocked!). ADD IS covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act. Do I expect this to grant me an instant Magical Job? No. But I am glad it exists so that I can (hopefully) have an easier time of getting employed despite the fact that my mentality interferes significantly with my ability to work.


Right now, the only thing I want to say is thank you for seeing where I came from with the "fru-fru PC excuse". :)

[AFPheonix]

I hear that all the time.. but my husband has it.. and i see first hand what ADD can do to a person..

don't get me started on the meds either... hubby refuses to take them because he can take them at 5am.. midnight comes he will lay in bed and count the dots on the ceiling because it won't let him sleep

most people don't realize how had a JOB can be when you have it...

Has he tried the non-controlled release versions? Or does he have issues with even those? Also, he might consider Strattera. It's not the same chemically as Ritalin and drugs in that class. It's actually closely related to Cymbalta which is used for depression.

[vanima]

he is a lot like me.. very gun shy when it comes to medications now :D

[The Shadow]

For the record, I am ADD (attention deficit disorder) and I would personally tear the head off of anybody who dared tell me that ADD was a "fru-fru" PC excuse (yes, there are people who use it as such, but for those of us who really do have it, the last thing we want to do is make a crutch out of it - if anything, we're loath to ask for help because we're so afraid of being mocked!). ADD IS covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act. Do I expect this to grant me an instant Magical Job? No. But I am glad it exists so that I can (hopefully) have an easier time of getting employed despite the fact that my mentality interferes significantly with my ability to work.

Speaking as someone else who is ADD (as well as LD and physically disabled) you hit the nail right on the head...thank you. :)

And none of the medications worked for me. :(

[Flyndaran]

I can sympathise for those afraid of the medication roulette.
My anxiety/phobia problems make me extra affraid whenever I, or my psychiatrist, hear of a new drug.

[Amethyst Hunter]

most people don't realize how had a JOB can be when you have it...

Oh lordy, yes. My last job was a pressure-cooker by ADD standards: cashier at a busy store. I damn near wigged out on several occasions because the stress (much of it related to nasty people) was just destroying my ability to keep a straight face and cool head; I doubt I would have lasted much longer going on like that. As it is I'm amazed that I managed to hang on as long as I did (ten months. Yes, I know how bad that looks).

At present I'm not on any medications at all, because I am also one of the 'gun-shy' when it comes to drugs. I tried Adderall for a brief several-months stint, and while it did boost my energy significantly (almost too much; on more than one occasion I felt my heart racing in a way that bothered me, and if I took any more than the 20 mgs I was originally prescribed - the doc tried upping it to 30 mgs - I got sick as a dog with nausea), the other effect wasn't worth it to me: I am a writer, and in the past two years I've managed to get my writing streak back and I am *deathly* afraid of losing it to some mind-altering substance. When I was on Adderall my mind was a complete blank! :(

So for the time being, I'm trying to rely more on behavior/environment modification rather than drugs - though I don't begrudge anybody who has drugs work for them; it really is an individual therapy-tailoring and what works for one person doesn't do diddly for another.

Right now, the only thing I want to say is thank you for seeing where I came from with the "fru-fru PC excuse". :)

Hope I didn't sound too horribly harsh to you; I wasn't necessarily directing that comment towards you. ;) ADD is one of the few very hot-button issues for me, so I do get bristly about it sometimes.

I DO, very much, *despise* those people who claim to have ADD as an excuse for their being wankers towards other people, or those parents who won't constructively deal with little Johnny's or Susie's 'normal' childish hyperactivity and instead try to get them hooked on Ritalin as a way to handle the problem. Those kinds just make it that much harder for us real ADDers to be taken seriously by the rest of the 'normal' population and for us to take care of our problems. There's a huge difference between what's normal behavior for kids and what is genuinely listed under ADD traits. I have a nephew who's currently exhibiting some of those and while he hasn't yet been officially diagnosed with anything, I sincerely hope for his sake that he gets whatever help he needs (regardless if he actually is ADD or not) early on so that he doesn't wind up like me. :( I wasn't diagnosed until my late 20s because my ADD traits are very subtle and non-hyperactive (as is usually the case for ADD girls) and by then the damage was already done.

*hugs all the ADD people in the room*

[Slytovhand]

He will do his best to make sure Bin Laden is captured and killed

So, the whole concept of a 'fair trial' is out the door then?? I mean, you didn't say "He will do his best to see the real conspirators in the WTC bombings come to trial". (not that I expect that will ever happen.. but worth saying).

[daleduke17]

So, the whole concept of a 'fair trial' is out the door then?? I mean, you didn't say "He will do his best to see the real conspirators in the WTC bombings come to trial". (not that I expect that will ever happen.. but worth saying).

Didn't Bin Laden actually come out and say that he masterminded it? If so, skip the whole courtroom part of it, put him in line for "Ol' Sparky" and zap him.

3,000+ counts of murder.....yeah, I think he has more than earned the death penalty.

[Flyndaran]

Didn't Bin Laden actually come out and say that he masterminded it? If so, skip the whole courtroom part of it, put him in line for "Ol' Sparky" and zap him.

3,000+ counts of murder.....yeah, I think he has more than earned the death penalty.

Naw. We have to at least have a sham of a trial the way we did with Milosevic and Saddam Hussain, even if the actual accusations are legally without basis.
At least Osama made everything quite clear to the world at large assuming a cave dwelling insulin dependent diabetic with kidney disease is still alive after all thise time.

[Slytovhand]

As a 'conspiracy theorist' (yes, go on, flame me now...), I will just as 1 question:

What's your evidence that he did "come out and say that he masterminded it?"

No, seriously... how many on here have actually met Bin Laden? Enough to be able to judge a 'video' of one of his speeches to say that it was the same person?

I ask, because there are those people out there who have met him, and they say it's not him on the video... or the voice tapes...

But this is for a different thread (specifically), just making the point about what the US is supposed to stand for.