Should Black Friday be banned?

[MystyGlyttyr]

This is a discussion I've been hearing some folks bandying about, though I'm not exactly sure how it would be put into practice. But there are people who are saying that Black Friday sales and the like should be banned after the death at Wal-Mart and other reports that the frenzy around it is steadily getting worse.

On the one hand, you can't just tell stores they can't have sales, I don't think. But on the other hand, when these sales hit, bad things happen.

Like I said, I have no idea of how anyone would go about it or if it'd be plausible or anything, and even if it did, it should be the stores doing it rather than some government entity.

I really don't have any thought one way or the other myself, I've just been hearing the whispers and got curious.

[smileyeagle1021]

actually, it would be something easy to ban... just ban "doorbusters"... mandate that all sales must be for a minimum amount of time, say 24 hours and that the sale must apply equally to all shoppers doubtless of what order they arrive, ie no "additional 10% off to first 50 customers" type sales... this would reduce the urgency and rush to all be at the store at the same time and reduce the likelihood of there being enough of a frenzy that someone else is trampled to death.

[DesignFox]

I think it is up to the stores to decide what sorts of sales they are going to offer and what they will do to protect their employees from the masses. And the masses should stop acting like assholes over stupid shit that they don't need, anyway.

Would these types of problems possibly be avoided if the stores stopped the bullshit? Possibly.

Do I think it is the government's responsibility to enact laws about it? NO.

[Flyndaran]

Governmental limits on capatalism should be based on absolute evidence of harm. Very few of major sale stores have trampeling horrors. These events happen also when their are limited supplies of some new hot item, so curtailing business owners' rights won't end the public from being stupid.
As a matter of fact, I believe that the governemnt has virtually no power over people being stupid.

Unfortunately, everyone remembers the Macy's thankgiving day sale, etc. more than the responsible stores. It's good for name recognitions, and that means money, what every business is in it for.

[daleduke17]

There were two reports of deaths this year regarding Black Friday. One at a ToysRUs where two customers got into a fight and one was shot. The other was the Wal-Mart one. The government already tells businesses what to do for people's "safety", why not this?

[Amethyst Hunter]

I don't see how they could feasibly "ban" Black Friday, even if a majority of people were in favor of a ban (which I seriously doubt). There are some things that both stores and individuals can do to minimize the stress, though:

1) (Most) Stores do NOT need to open at 4 fucking o'clock in the morning. And people do NOT need to be out shopping at that ungodly hour. If you're out scrolling around at that time, you damn well better be puking sick at a 24-hour joint and buying cold medicine, because that's the only conceivable excuse I can see for going out shopping at 4 bloody am. (Or if you're on the road and getting gas or something like that. That I can understand. But piling your cart with Christmas crap? HELL NO.)

2) Increase security at stores that hold special sales. Even if you don't have any prior law enforcement experience, I would think that they'd be able to train people off the street in basic crowd control. Hey, at the local county fair every year they always hire teenagers to direct the parking... I'm sure plenty of folks would like an opportunity to earn some extra cash these days.

3) Government can't really do anything about this, nor should they attempt to.

4) People just need to chill the fuck out and STAY HOME. Or go shopping at a more reasonable time and behave their damn selves. Your kid is not going to instantly perish despite what he or she says about not getting the Latest Cool Toy-Gadget-Thingie. YOU are not going to perish instantly if you don't nab that set of linen or fancy overpriced pair of boots the second that sale tag is burned onto those items. Throwing screaming tantrums, starting fights with other shoppers, ripping things out of behaving shoppers' hands - all that just makes us sane people want to hurt you Very Badly. (And sterilize you permanently so that you don't bring any more jackassery into the world!)

Edit: Oh, and Daleduke, the Toys R Us shooting was a gang-related incident, and not part of the Black Friday stampede.

[anriana]

1) (Most) Stores do NOT need to open at 4 fucking o'clock in the morning. And people do NOT need to be out shopping at that ungodly hour. If you're out scrolling around at that time, you damn well better be puking sick at a 24-hour joint and buying cold medicine, because that's the only conceivable excuse I can see for going out shopping at 4 bloody am. (Or if you're on the road and getting gas or something like that. That I can understand. But piling your cart with Christmas crap? HELL NO.)

I work third shift. I do all of my shopping on my off days during "ungodly hours."

[smileyeagle1021]

Ditto what Anriana said... for me 4am isn't an ungodly hour, that seems like a perfectly reasonable time to shop because that's usually when I'm most awake...

[Amethyst Hunter]

Ditto what Anriana said... for me 4am isn't an ungodly hour, that seems like a perfectly reasonable time to shop because that's usually when I'm most awake...

You guys are part of the aforementioned acceptable exceptions, which I should've added to that list but didn't think to. Hell, I've gone and gotten small groceries at 6 in the morning, and I'm not normally up at that hour. I wasn't talking about people who do that kind of shopping; I mean the idiots that hang around all night outside the stores and stalk them because they just have to have that Perfect Bargain no matter what. That's the kind of Black Friday fool I want to see given a swift boot in the butt.

[Boozy]

There is no need to pass more laws to ban or regulate Black Friday.

But they do need to start enforcing the laws that are already in place. As I posted in the thread here about the Walmart employee's death, there are municipal laws in virtually every township or county requiring a police presence whenever crowds above a certain number gather, or whenever the possibility of rioting or aggression exists. But these laws are thrown to the breeze on Black Friday, when every person in town is out shopping and there are only so many police officers to go around.

[protege]

I didn't do any shopping on Black Friday. Instead, I preferred to take the MG for a spin on the back roads. No traffic and no idiots to deal with. And yes, plenty of spirited driving :p

Seriously though, what is it about the holidays that turns otherwise normal (and sane) people into greedy, raging idiots? Stores opening at 4am? Pardon my French, but are you fucking kidding me? I don't know about the rest of you, but I have other things I'd rather be doing at 4am. Things like sleeping ;)

Most years, I actually start my Christmas shopping in July (gotta love the stores on vacation), and by September, I'm usually done. If there's anything else added to my shopping lists, I look for it online. I'm not about to deal with idiots (both in stores and in traffic). I do enough of that at work :p

Getting back to Black Friday. I don't think it's much the *sales* that are the problem. No, I think it has more to do with the rampant consumerism and the "gimme" attitude so prevalent in society now. I mean, I didn't get everything on my list when I was younger. Disappointing, but my world didn't come crashing down. I mean, did things turn to shit when that BMW Z8 model didn't appear under the tree? Was my holiday "ruined?"

Of course not. I got plenty of other things to play with :D As to the Z8, I simply did some shopping around after Christmas...and found one on sale. Since the box was damaged (but the parts inside were fine) I got it for half off.

[DrT]

Of course not. I got plenty of other things to play with :D As to the Z8, I simply did some shopping around after Christmas...and found one on sale. Since the box was damaged (but the parts inside were fine) I got it for half off.

As a matter of fact, after hollidays sales are SO much better compared to back fridays like: with all the returns, stores are dying to make sales.

[Saydrah]

No ban needed; just hold corporations liable for deaths or serious injuries incurred during Black Friday stampedes. Make sure that enormous damages can be collected, possibly greater than the store's profits from Black Friday. In addition, anyone involved in a Black Friday stampede that causes death should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

[Flyndaran]

No ban needed; just hold corporations liable for deaths or serious injuries incurred during Black Friday stampedes. Make sure that enormous damages can be collected, possibly greater than the store's profits from Black Friday. In addition, anyone involved in a Black Friday stampede that causes death should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

That sounds like frivolous lawsuit city. Charging people with crimes that cannot be reasonably convicted is bad for everyone. You really want to make a run around the legislature by forcing exhorbitant civil suits?
I still say that such deaths are the rarity rather than truly expected results from major sales. If so, then no company can be held financially accountable for the idocy of their customers. People should be responsible for their own actions.

Involuntary manslaughter is what drunk driving killers get charged with. I would prefer that idiocy and impatience get a lesser charge than willfully doing something so heinous.

One could make the argument that customers killed in such situtations were partially liable becuase they were in the FRONT of the the major sale stampede.
But either way, people are fragile, and stupidity can't be made illegal. We must all accept this and move on after tragedies.

How big of a sale does one have to be before this "hold companies liable for murders committed on their floors" suit becomes possible?
President's day sales?
After Christmas?
Day before Christmas rushes?

[Boozy]

I wouldn't think just having a sale would necessarily make a company liable for injury or deaths. Every case should be judged on its own merits.

But let's look at the specific case of the recent Wal-mart death:

- Wal-mart advertised a "door-buster sale" in which only the first 5 through the door would get a insanely cheap TV
- They allowed a mass of shoppers to gather at the doors, and provided no security at the point of entrance, nor paid for police presence
- The plan was to unlock the doors and allow everyone to rush in at once,
- They appointed one man to unlock those doors.

This is clearly negligence, in my mind.

[powerboy]

I do not think that they should ban Black Friday. But they should ban them from opening earlier, than they usually do. And like what was said earlier, have it applied to every shopper.

[Flyndaran]

I do not think that they should ban Black Friday. But they should ban them from opening earlier, than they usually do. And like what was said earlier, have it applied to every shopper.

So they open early for an entire week before the sale, but don't do anything else differently.. would that be ok?

[Evandril]

There were two reports of deaths this year regarding Black Friday. One at a ToysRUs where two customers got into a fight and one was shot. The other was the Wal-Mart one. The government already tells businesses what to do for people's "safety", why not this?

Even giving Black Friday credit for both deaths...that's *TWO* deaths out of *HOW* many sales/rushes/ect?

Admittedly, walmart's policy to get every person possible into their stores to chase after some fleeting deals (VERY limited quantities of underpriced items) should be dealt with in some fashion...but a nationwide rule would be bad, IMO.

[ArenaBoy]

Agreed with Boozy. Police presence is a big help. The fact that Wal-Mart let this happen was shocking.

The other alternative is (For me anyway) to just stay home in and sleep in. That and shop online.

[daleduke17]

This is no different than laws banning "Happy Hour" in bars. If it is good for public safety not to allow bars to have happy hour, then it should be ok for public safety not to have this version of Black Friday sales.

Either that, or allow happy hour again.

[Evandril]

Again...*HOW* many people have been hurt by 'Happy Hours' compared to Black Fridays? If you concider the amount of people involved in both, it would make this similar to the government getting involved in all of the darwin awards, as well. On that same day, how many *OTHER* people died for various reasons?

[Flyndaran]

Again...*HOW* many people have been hurt by 'Happy Hours' compared to Black Fridays? If you concider the amount of people involved in both, it would make this similar to the government getting involved in all of the darwin awards, as well. On that same day, how many *OTHER* people died for various reasons?

If we make anything that harms people illegal, it should be tobacco. Anything else is a lesser danger.

[Boozy]

I don't have a problem with laws protecting innocent non-smoking bystanders from the harms of tobacco smoke. But the government doesn't need to pass a law protecting an individual from themselves.

Happy hours and Black Friday (arguably) cause harm to others, so the law could possibly get involved there. Otherwise the government can mind it's own business.

[daleduke17]

I don't have a problem with laws protecting innocent non-smoking bystanders from the harms of tobacco smoke. But the government doesn't need to pass a law protecting an individual from themselves.

That is exactly what the tobacco laws are. Protecting people from themselves.

[the_std]

That is exactly what the tobacco laws are. Protecting people from themselves.

Uhm, no. The smoking restrictions in public places are to protect people from other people. Someone out to dinner has no choice over whether the person three tables away lights up or not.

[Flyndaran]

Uhm, no. The smoking restrictions in public places are to protect people from other people. Someone out to dinner has no choice over whether the person three tables away lights up or not.

No one should have the right to spit carcinogens into our communal airspace. I like breathing air without particulates, as a general rule.

The fact that it is a completely without merit habit makes it somewhat unique among legal bad habits.

It's worse than marijuana, ecstasy, and a few other illegal drugs.

[daleduke17]

No one should have the right to spit carcinogens into our communal airspace. I like breathing air without particulates, as a general rule.

The fact that it is a completely without merit habit makes it somewhat unique among legal bad habits.

It's worse than marijuana, ecstasy, and a few other illegal drugs.

Make sure you never drive, be near vehicles that are running, or any factories then.


Uhm, no. The smoking restrictions in public places are to protect people from other people. Someone out to dinner has no choice over whether the person three tables away lights up or not.


Yes they do. The choice is to either deal with it, or go somewhere else. There ARE choices.

[the_std]

This isn't a thread about the anti-smoking laws. Maybe you should go argue that over in the right thread (http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=402&highlight=smoking).

The point being made here is that banning Black Friday sales might help protect people from other people and their actions that bring needless harm onto other people.

[AFPheonix]

Although if stores ensured that they had proper precautions in place, there would be no need to think about banning Black Friday. There are many stores across the country that do ticket systems, have adequate security and crowd control, and enough staffing to prevent disasters from happening. The Wal-mart in question did not, and I hope someone gets in some deep shit for it.

[Boozy]

The ticket system makes so much sense, I can't believe that every store doesn't do it.

Perhaps this Wal-mart actually wanted the out-of-control crowd scene. Video footage of people calmly filing into a department store with tickets does not make the evening news. Hordes of sale-crazed customers pushing each other out of the way does.

[Evandril]

People in a 'shopping frenzy' tend to spend more money, if you calm them down, you're going to lose sales *shrugs* Of course, if, instead of passing nation wide laws that will effect *ALL* retail stores, we go after the one chain that's shown itself most culpable for endangering people...

Then again, they'd just apply for a government bailout, with the way things are going at present *sighs*

[Greenday]

Then again, they'd just apply for a government bailout, with the way things are going at present *sighs*

They'd get it too. The government is willing to hand out to anyone who doesn't deserve it.

[smileyeagle1021]

They'd get it too. The government is willing to hand out to anyone who doesn't deserve it.

and hates to give it out to those who do :rolleyes:

[crashhelmet]

I think people are missing key points here. This is all caused by the materialism and greed our society promotes.

Stores open earlier so that they can have more hours of revenue generation. Shoppers get there early so that they can hope to be the first to get or get it while it's still in stock. Can you imagine how many people there would be if it didn't open until 10am? You'd probably have cases of multiple tramplings in individual stores.

Unfortunately, it's never going to end. Not as long as companies continue to release the ticklewiiruxpinpatch and parents continue to worry that they'll scar little Timmy for life if they don't get it for them.

Don't hold the stores accountable. Hold the shoppers accountable for their lack of maturity, common sense, and "humanity."

CH

[AFPheonix]

Unfortunately, that's not going to actually solve any problems like the one encountered by that poor Wal-mart greeter.

Again, humans can be herded really well, we turn into sheeple when we're in groups. It's not hard to figure out crowd control, especially when thousands of stores across the country do just that without an issue.

[kamn]

Holding the customers accountable wouldnt do much. If I recall correctly (and I may be completely wrong here), the shoppers didnt even realise they stepped on someone. Not before bursting the doors, not while having their feet on his chest, not when exiting the damned store, never.

Holding the store accountaable seems feasable and somewhat moraly right. They did it by lack of control (involuntary manslaughter?), by creating the craze, and partly becouse it happened on their ground. (I dont mean that they should be accountable becouse it happened on their ground, but it to be a circumstance of importance).

[Seshat]

But let's look at the specific case of the recent Wal-mart death:

- Wal-mart advertised a "door-buster sale" in which only the first 5 through the door would get a insanely cheap TV
- They allowed a mass of shoppers to gather at the doors, and provided no security at the point of entrance, nor paid for police presence
- The plan was to unlock the doors and allow everyone to rush in at once,

Incitement to riot.


- They appointed one man to unlock those doors.

Criminal negligence, manslaughter.


Actually applying those laws to this situation, and making it DAMN clear that precedent WILL be applied in future, should solve the problem.

If, in the future, stores arrange for proper crowd control, and for a barrier of a type that doesn't endanger a person when the barrier is lifted, then the criminal negligence and manslaughter charges won't apply.

If they manage the 'limited supply of deep discount items' in a way which doesn't incite and encourage riot/mob behaviour, then the incitement to riot charge won't apply.

But the way it was done there - I'd deem all three charges to apply.


Edit to add: mob psychology is a separate branch of human psychology. People act VERY differently when they're in a mob situation. Anyone wilfully creating a mob should either study mob psychology, or get a specialist in!