MTV Martial Law Warning

[ditchdj]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reCpV1YHuYs

-----This is one reason why I oppose and despise the (un)Patriot Act. :mad:

[Tanasi]

Surely you aren't impling that Obamamessiah and his minions will pull something like that???
I called his local campaign office a few times trying to find where the local re-education camp wil be so I could report early and get a good spot.:D

[AdminAssistant]

I'm really confused as to why MTV felt the need to do this...I don't think we're anywhere close to a Holocaust, concentration camps, or martial law...or at least not anymore. If it didn't happen in the last 8 years, it's not going to happen now.

I wonder why they didn't do a video that ended with a picture of an internment camp during WWII?

[daleduke17]

I'm really confused as to why MTV felt the need to do this...

Because MTV doesn't remember what the "M" in their name means. They think they should be all fucking political, when the only thing they should be doing is playing music videos.

[Greenday]

MTV is one of the worst TV stations out there today. As daleduke pointed out, they no longer remember what the M stands for. If I want politics, I'll watching the news or John Stewart or Stephen Colbert.

[Slytovhand]

Can someone do me a favour, and give me an idea what this is about??

I usually read fratching at work, and can't access Youtube from here...

[AFPheonix]

It's a stupid commercial in which people doing normal, everyday things like ride the subway get hustled off by military and into concentration camps, then they superimpose a similar picture from the Holocaust.
It then goes to text that says "The Holocaust happened to people like us".

I'm not sure what they're trying to put across, it doesn't mention any world leader nor any piece of legislation. It was just edgy for the sake of being edgy without any educational value whatsoever.

[ditchdj]

I'm not sure what they're trying to put across, it doesn't mention any world leader nor any piece of legislation. It was just edgy for the sake of being edgy without any educational value whatsoever.


:D


Haven't got a clue???? Read the "Patriot Act".

Oh don't feel like reading it???? No big deal. Neither did most of our lawmakers that voted for it.

It's NOT about MTV. You can't see the forest for the trees.

[Greenday]

:D


Haven't got a clue???? Read the "Patriot Act".

Oh don't feel like reading it???? No big deal. Neither did most of our lawmakers that voted for it.

It's NOT about MTV. You can't see the forest for the trees.

Despite the Patriot Act, it'd never happen in this day and age. Maybe if the world was total anarchy it would, but not in America or any of the other major nations.

[AFPheonix]

Color me stupid, but there was no mention of Patriot act in that commercial, nor mention of either the outgoing or incoming presidents.
Again, without a clear message, the commercial was being edgy for the sake of being edgy, with no educational benefit whatsoever.

[Slytovhand]

Despite the Patriot Act, it'd never happen in this day and age. Maybe if the world was total anarchy it would, but not in America or any of the other major nations.

Why? Has human nature actually changed that much over the last 60 years??

Sorry GD, but humans haven't really changed in over 5000 years - we've just developed more interesting ways to deal with our fears and paranoias.

[Greenday]

Why? Has human nature actually changed that much over the last 60 years??

Sorry GD, but humans haven't really changed in over 5000 years - we've just developed more interesting ways to deal with our fears and paranoias.

Because I think the conditions between Germany then and the US now are extremely different. Plus, in Nazi Germany, they were rounding up a minority. In the commercial, it makes it seem like they were rounding up anyone and everyone. That'd never work. There are over 300 million people with a military of only 1.45 million. It'd never work.

[Tanasi]

I think the video was in reference to Obamamessiah's Civilian Defense Force idea that he floated last month. With MTV complaining about it seems kinda odd to me in that I'd think they would be all for rounding up the conservitives and Republicans at least for re-education if not the final solution.

[daleduke17]

I think the video was in reference to Obamamessiah's Civilian Defense Force idea that he floated last month. With MTV complaining about it seems kinda odd to me in that I'd think they would be all for rounding up the conservitives and Republicans at least for re-education if not the final solution.

What is his Civil Defense Force? I haven't heard about that one I don't think (unless it was tied into something else).

[ArenaBoy]

What was this hoping to accomplish? Did Viacom get a CEO who wears aluminum foil? What a joke.

[Tanasi]

Civilian National Security Force was the term he used. A force that would as well funded, equiped and trained as well as our current military. Their job would be homeland security similar to a national police force.
Smacks of the Brown Shirts to me.

[Evandril]

Right now, we don't have enough information to judge *shrugs* In theory, it sounds like a good idea, but I'd have to see what they wanted to use them for, and how. I *do* know I'm much better trained/funded/ect, on the whole, than any police force, being in the military...I also know my 'job' is FAR simpler, as well...If we can manage a police force with military level backing...It sounds good on paper :)

Of course, any national level police force will have it's own share of headaches, to say the least.

[Rapscallion]

Civilian National Security Force was the term he used. A force that would as well funded, equiped and trained as well as our current military. Their job would be homeland security similar to a national police force.


Isn't that pretty much the function and description of the National Guard? Not being from your parts, I have to ask, but from what I've heard it's the sort of idea it was designed for.

Rapscallion

[ExiledV20]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reCpV1YHuYs

I'm only going to say this once and once only: That's the most blatant bullshit scare propaganda I've ever seen. It's fucking guilty of Godwin's and should be treated like the rest of the inane crap that spews out of MTV these days.

I'll do responses and then rant about the REALITY of martial law afterwards.

:D
Haven't got a clue???? Read the "Patriot Act".
Oh don't feel like reading it???? No big deal. Neither did most of our lawmakers that voted for it.


The PATRIOT Act, while having material in it that I object to, DOES NOT provide for martial law ala 1930s Nazis. At all. Period. Nope. Here's exactly what it does, taken from Wikipedia:

"The Act increases the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial and other records; eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expands the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and enhances the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expands the definition of terrorism to include domestic terrorism, thus enlarging the number of activities to which the USA PATRIOT Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied."

Note: NO, and I mean absolutely NO mention of martial law, which is covered under Posse Comitatus, the Suspension Clause of the US Constitution, and the Military Commissions Act of 2006. People should be worried about the LATTER, not the Patriot Act.

I think the video was in reference to Obamamessiah's Civilian Defense Force idea that he floated last month.

The Civilian Defense Force idea that's floating around is not very new at all. As a matter of fact, it's a retread of a failed bill(s) that started during the Bush era. The bill is renewed every year or so. See the:

Universal National Service Act of 2003
Universal National Service Act of 2006
Universal National Service Act of 2007

Now, some agree with national service and others do not. But this whole concept that Obama is going to have some private SS group? Bullcrap. Read his notes and who sponsors it and you'll see a retread of the above bills. With mostly Democratic control, they might actually get it.

Isn't that pretty much the function and description of the National Guard? Not being from your parts, I have to ask, but from what I've heard it's the sort of idea it was designed for.


The National Guard falls under the Department of Defense and so may only be utilized by order of the State Governors or if the Department of Defense so orders them to battle. The DOD can't use NG units internally, only send them to Iraq.

This naturally creates a large problem. If we have a large crisis - say Hurricane Katrina - NG units cannot be deployed by FEMA, everyone has to first huddle and pass paperwork, and responses go to hell. We have absolutely NO national response teams for any type of crisis, other than the single Army unit that has been seconded to NORTHCOM under the Military Commissions Act of 2006.

I admire the UK in that sense. At the very least you have MI-5 and Special Branch that can be deployed wherever necessary to perform an investigation. Here, it just goes into clusterfuck mode and state and national forces block each other for prestige issues and nothing gets done.

[Evandril]

Isn't that pretty much the function and description of the National Guard? Not being from your parts, I have to ask, but from what I've heard it's the sort of idea it was designed for.

Rapscallion

The National Guard is designed to protect the areas they are responsible for from outside sources...This sounds more of an internal force, from the very little I know of it.

[AFPheonix]

All I can find on google are rantings from right-wing commentators, but it sounds like more of a continuation of Peace Corps and other volunteer opportunities, not another armed forces.

[Greenday]

Isn't that pretty much the function and description of the National Guard? Not being from your parts, I have to ask, but from what I've heard it's the sort of idea it was designed for.

Rapscallion

Exactly what I was just thinking. National Guard isn't stuck around it's primary location. You can get moved anywhere when a disaster hits.

[ArenaBoy]

All I can find on google are rantings from right-wing commentators, but it sounds like more of a continuation of Peace Corps and other volunteer opportunities, not another armed forces.

And MTV trying to be edgy is a failure. What a shock.

Personally, this is one of the things that I hate about the internet. Things get distorted quickly on a bigger scale.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/is_obama_planning_a_gestapo-like_civilian_national.html

Obama, July 2, Colorado Springs, CO: [As] president I will expand AmeriCorps to 250,000 slots [from 75,000] and make that increased service a vehicle to meet national goals, like providing health care and education, saving our planet and restoring our standing in the world, so that citizens see their effort connected to a common purpose.

People of all ages, stations and skills will be asked to serve. Because when it comes to the challenges we face, the American people are not the problem – they are the answer. So we are going to send more college graduates to teach and mentor our young people. We'll call on Americans to join an energy corps, to conduct renewable energy and environmental clean-up projects in their neighborhoods all across the country.

We will enlist our veterans to find jobs and support for other vets, and to be there for our military families. And we're going to grow our Foreign Service, open consulates that have been shuttered and double the size of the Peace Corps by 2011 to renew our diplomacy. We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set.

We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded. We need to use technology to connect people to service. We'll expand USA Freedom Corps to create online networks where American can browse opportunities to volunteer. You'll be able to search by category, time commitment and skill sets. You'll be able to rate service opportunities, build service networks, and create your own service pages to track your hours and activities.

This will empower more Americans to craft their own service agenda and make their own change from the bottom up.

[ditchdj]

The PATRIOT Act, while having material in it that I object to, DOES NOT provide for martial law ala 1930s Nazis. At all. Period. Nope.

You obviously have NOT read this thing. These so called "rights" we wave around like Freedom of Speech, Bearing Arms, Due Process and such can be wiped out with the stoke of a pen under an Executive Order that was signed by Bush in his first term. The President can declare a National Emergency and poof, the USC doesn't apply, the Congress and Supreme Court go home and the Exec Branch takes over. Yes, it's far out fuzzy thinking, but then again, in 1934 who would have thought a little man, with a bad mustache and haircut could wipe out 6,000,000 people?

[AdminAssistant]

We are NOT Germany post-World War I. The entire world isn't picking on us, and we don't have a massive inferiority complex. The reason for Hitler's popularity is that the German people, initially, believed that he would raise up the fallen state and unite the German people. (Remember, Hitler was elected). We are in no way anywhere near to that situation. Besides, Hitler didn't exactly work alone, he had an entire team of goons and bullies working with him, some perhaps more monstrous than he.

Like Hitler, however, Bush did use fear and nationalism to get the Patriot Act passed and all of the other crazy bullshit he's pulled over the past 8 years. P-E Obama has already decreed that among his first executive orders will be the elimination of questionable interrogation techniques and Gitmo.

The problem with the National Guard right now is they're being used overseas, instead of here at home, which is where they're meant to be. I have no problem with a Civilian Defense Corps, as long as it's volunteer. Conscription just won't work in today's America.

[Slytovhand]

We are NOT Germany post-World War I. The entire world isn't picking on us, and we don't have a massive inferiority complex. The reason for Hitler's popularity is that the German people, initially, believed that he would raise up the fallen state and unite the German people. (Remember, Hitler was elected). We are in no way anywhere near to that situation. Besides, Hitler didn't exactly work alone, he had an entire team of goons and bullies working with him, some perhaps more monstrous than he.

While this is true, the relevant word in there is 'are'. Meaning, right now. Neither was Germany pre-WWI. Recently was a massive hit to the US economy. It's not too far-fetched to have anothe more disastrous hit to it (if the rest of the world stop trading in USD, and head for Euros instead, for example), and say, for all the debt the US has to get called in (sure - unlikely, but possible). Add another terrorist attack (who knows where that might come from - external or internal... lots of options there), and then just watch what people will do!

It's not a 'US' thing, it's a human thing... when the chips are down, humans tend to look for a scape-goat. After all, it was the Jews around WWII (actually, has been them for ages..). It was them because they had a nice stockpile of cash, which others didn't. How many people do you have over there at the moment who wouldn't blink to see illegal immigrants who currently have paying jobs get treated roughly or even terrorised by some sort of military or enforcement agency? How about 'suspected' terrorists??

Ok - I've just seen the vid (at home now :D) And I've only really got one criticism... all those getting harrassed are white people... no Mexicans, no Middle Eastern, no Africans etc etc...

And - didn't vaguely similar scenes happen in the 50's during the McCarthy-ism period? Ok, maybe not the train scene, but certainly the second one at the house (granted, maybe not lots of ppl crammed onto a truck..though I wasn't there, so maybe they did!)

Oh, Exiled, I presume you're only referring to security interests for the MI-5 and Special Branch comment. Because they only deal with that - security. No troops to deploy in case of national emergencies, no battles, no units etc... Just a stack of people who, for the most part, wear white collars (sometimes they might throw some colour in there :p), and sit in offices (plus some field operatives). But not even remotely resembling NG or this proposed CDF...

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'm not saying I have a clue why MTV chose to air this stuff. I don't know. MTV probably isn't even sure.

However, I'd just like to say this: Never think it can't happen again. Anywhere. Even to us.

Most of those people who died in the Holocaust were most likely thinking "This cannot possibly happening here, in this time and place." as they were dragged off, degraded, dehumanized, and killed. The "gypsies" knew better. Most likely the homosexuals knew better, too. I would go so far as to suggest that's why the gypsies fought back so hard and the Jews didn't. The gypsies expected the worst. Heck, they lived side by side with "the worst." The Jews couldn't believe that in their modern times, that sort of barbarity would befall them. Just like we don't think it's possible, either.

I watched those spots and they made my blood run cold. It would have been just like that. MTV used "white" people to force the majority of viewers to be able to relate to the people in the vid in a very personal way. So that the majority of viewers would view themselves in those vids, their own homes and families. So that they couldn't, even on an unconcious level, detach themselves from the victims.

I'm not sure of MTV's point airing this, but their ad DID succeed in putting it into perspective. And that's fine. Never think it can't happen. Never forget.

[prb]

Despite the Patriot Act, it'd never happen in this day and age. Maybe if the world was total anarchy it would, but not in America or any of the other major nations.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2007/06/how_much_power_did_bush_give_h.html

[ArenaBoy]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2007/06/how_much_power_did_bush_give_h.html

Unless Obama's as idiotic as Bush (And from what I've heard from those who have had him as a Senator he's not), the possibility of it is farfetched given that Bush is out of the office in less than a week (Finally).

My problem with the ads are the following:

1. There's too many fucking people in this country (USA) who claim they're "paying attention to what the government is really doing" are the most clueless about what actually is going on. They're so caught up in fucking conspiracy theories that they've blinded themselves to the truth. These are the same people who think that on December 21st 2012 the world will end when anyone who bothers researching will learn that the Mayans didn't calculate their calendar to go beyond 2012.

2. While I'm all for freedom of speech, this is what I hate about computers and the internet: It allows nutjobs to be heard on a bigger scale.

3. Why the hell should we take anything from MTV seriously? This is the same channel that shows a bunch of spoiled girls on their 16th birthday acting like twits. I'm with AFPhoenix on this. They're trying to be edgy for the sake of it.

4. Any idea of Bush trying to claim power for himself needs to get their heads examined. He's leaving office next Tuesday. Do I think he tried to sign more power over to him? No but I wouldn't be surprised either.

5. The US will have hopefully learned its lesson (For once) to not vote for someone whose last name is Bush. Seriously, we already had one Bush in the early 90s and our economy was shit under him. But no, we had to go and hire an even stupider version. Seriously, has anyone taken a look at that family? Leadership is the last thing that should be associated with them.

[daleduke17]

Unless Obama's as idiotic as Bush (And from what I've heard from those who have had him as a Senator he's not),

How could they tell how Obama was as a senator? He was hardly ever around. He got elected into the Senate, turned around and started running for President. So, with a small sample size, he may not be that bad. Let's see if he can actually do what he claims he can do.

[Greenday]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2007/06/how_much_power_did_bush_give_h.html

That's all well and good, but no matter how much power you have, the signing a slip of paper that says you are the ruler of the world doesn't mean shit if the rest of the world doesn't agree with you. The people would never put up with martial law and the government would be torn from limb to limb and be replaced with another government. The people have to want it for it to work.

[AFPheonix]

Oh, I dunno, people can be herded like sheep pretty well. I guess I don't expect too much out of a populace that voted in Bush for a second term, despite the gross incompetence and abuse of power he displayed in his first.

See, that ad would have actually been thought provoking if it had pointed out shit like that, rather than try edgy holocaust imagery.

[ditchdj]

The people would never put up with martial law and the government would be torn from limb to limb and be replaced with another government. The people have to want it for it to work.

You have too much faith in people. I don't. History is on my side for the most part.

[Evandril]

Meh, martial law tends to be enforced by the military...and I don't know many *IN* the military that would stand for it, honestly *shrugs*

While I won't say it's impossible, I will say I find it highly unlikely...the military, as a whole, isn't horribly pleased with how close we keep coming to not being paid and the like to really want to use force to keep the idiots in power.

[Greenday]

You have too much faith in people. I don't. History is on my side for the most part.

What part of history are you referring to? Because if you are referring to Nazi Germany, then it's irrelevant as the situations are quite different.

P.S. - I have no faith in humanity.

[Slytovhand]

Is the US that different from, say, China? Japan (in years gone by), former Yugoslavia, Somalia, Russia, Burma, Thailand, Zimbabwe... and that's straight off the top of my head. Even Australia had it's concentration camps during WWII, and rounded up all the Italians in Far North Queensland. How were Germans treated in the US, or UK back then?

Sure, you can say it was war... but it was still locking up civilians with no justification other than heritage.

As for whether the military would actually do such things? People are still people, and if you've been convinced this is what's needed to keep the place safe, and you've been fed a stack of bull for the past X years, why wouldn't you?? (not even thinking about the morons who'd do it anyway).

Not that the clips actually said it (didn't really say a lot, actually - and that sucked!), but when it comes down to it, when you see all the things you've worked for, the things you expect in life, taken away from you (either quickly or slowly), there's a lot of things a human will do to get it back... and in those times, human rights can get stuffed - I'm looking out for #1! (that's them..not me, btw..)

[Evandril]

Oh, the treatment of Japanese and German American citizens during WWII was a discrace, to say the least...as were many other things we've done...We're just, in general, more honest about talking about our screwups like that.

The main thing is...Right now, the military is doing well, and is being paid on time, with no real problems. From my experience, people who are doing well don't tend to enjoy watching others suffer...and having to try and keep them 'in line' when we can understand what they are going through...Like I said, possible, but unlikely. Would need years prep-time for it, most likely longer than Obama will be in office, and he doesn't seem the type TO do something like that. (My Mom grew up in nazi Germany...and voted for Obama. She's pointed out politicians that acted similar to hitler when he was gathering power before...)

[Slytovhand]

Oh, I forgot to add... when Bush signed that little piece of paper, I'm not so sure his advisors were thinking of him using those powers. Would be interesting to see if Obama rescinds it! Or any of the other dubious bits of legislation that were brought it... now, wouldn't that be interesting if he doesn't!

[ExiledV20]

You obviously have NOT read this thing. These so called "rights" we wave around like Freedom of Speech, Bearing Arms, Due Process and such can be wiped out with the stoke of a pen under an Executive Order that was signed by Bush in his first term. The President can declare a National Emergency and poof, the USC doesn't apply, the Congress and Supreme Court go home and the Exec Branch takes over. Yes, it's far out fuzzy thinking, but then again, in 1934 who would have thought a little man, with a bad mustache and haircut could wipe out 6,000,000 people?


I HAVE read the thing.
I've dissected it both in Criminal Law and Constitutional Law.
I will state this clearly again: The PATRIOT Act has nothing to do with martial law and the creation thereof. Period. Done.

Here's the text of the Act itself. (http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html) Point out to me, if you can, where it talks about executing martial law.

As for the Executive Order you are mentioning, I assume you are referring to Executive Order 12919. Do you know what it does? It activates all at once the following Executive Orders if there is a national emergency:

EO 10990: allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EO 10995: Federal seizure of all communications media in the US.

EO 10997: Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private.

EO 10998: Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment.

EO 10999: Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways.

EO 11000: Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires.

EO 11001: Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private.

EO 11002: Empowers the Postmaster General to register every single person in the US.

EO 11003: Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft.

EO 11004: Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as 'unsafe,' establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds.

EO 11005: Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private.

EO 11051: Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis

Now, all of these Executive Orders are part of the COG operations. I'm assuming that you know that COG is Continuity of Government, the plans to allow the government to continue functioning in the case of invasion, nuclear attack, or other national emergency. Been around since the beginning of the Cold War, most of them signed by JFK and LBJ. The EO provided by Bush merely activates them all at the same time, instead of each requiring separate authorization. It's a time-saving measure, that's it.

Secondly, you have your law wrong. No Executive Order can establish martial law. The President may only establish martial law with a vote of the 2/3 of each house in Congress. That's one reason why that movie "Under Siege" was so stupid; it could never have happened as it was portrayed.

So my question is, what exactly do you know of COG, the Cold War, and how the government operates in a national emergency? Do you know what laws govern the declaration of martial law?

And - didn't vaguely similar scenes happen in the 50's during the McCarthy-ism period? Ok, maybe not the train scene, but certainly the second one at the house (granted, maybe not lots of ppl crammed onto a truck..though I wasn't there, so maybe they did!)

Nah, not really. Even during the height of the McCarthy scares, it never got worse than the asshole FBI men you see in Indiana Jones & The Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull. Fair amount of blacklisting and some severe suspicion, but that really started fading after McCarthy made a complete dick of himself on TV.

Oh, Exiled, I presume you're only referring to security interests for the MI-5 and Special Branch comment. Because they only deal with that - security. No troops to deploy in case of national emergencies, no battles, no units etc... Just a stack of people who, for the most part, wear white collars (sometimes they might throw some colour in there :p), and sit in offices (plus some field operatives). But not even remotely resembling NG or this proposed CDF...

Ok....well, if you have a group of IRA attack, who takes them out? I assume a regular riot would be taken care of by local police. I'm pretty sure MI-6 is forbidden to operate on native soil, just like our CIA is.

Now, for some education:

- declaring martial law in the United States can be done under the Suspension Clause of the USC, which states "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.". This is a power granted EXCLUSIVELY TO CONGRESS AND NO ONE ELSE. Despite the recent laws passed, a test of the president's power to declare martial law without the consent of Congress would likely run afoul of the Constitution which has exclusive power to suspend Habeas Corpus.
- This is also further governed by the court case "Ex Parte Milligan", the Posse Comitatus Act, and the Military Commissions Act of 2006. THAT'S ALL.
- And here, this is what the current legal view on it is. (http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html)

So, now that we know the ground rules, we can discuss it like civilized people. :D

[Boozy]

The Prime Minister of Canada declared martial law in the province of Quebec in 1970 after a terrorist organization kidnapped some government officials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis

Interestingly, the Quebecois were very supportive of the measure at the time, moreso than the rest of Canada. Even more interesting is the fact that in the years afterwards, support for what the PM had done fell dramatically. There's a lesson there: People will give up rights when they are scared shitless, then when their heads clear, they can't believe that they did.

[IDrinkaRum]

I don't watch MTV (haven't for years when they stopped showing videos 24/7) and the desktop I'm on doesn't have its speakers properly attached so I can't watch the YouTube video with sound. :(

However, my Post-World War I and Pre-World War II history is a little rusty (I'm in my 30's ... I have a bad remembory, please bear with me. :p)

Wasn't Germany held almost exclusively responsible for WWI? Weren't they devestated not only physically (having the war brought to the countyr), but devestated economically, and told they were no longer able to raise either a military (without approval of the other nations around it) nor could they have any weaponry.

This was not only enacted by America but all of her allies also.

Then people got lax. They figured they had humiliated Germany so badly that Germany would never rise from the ashes.

But Germany did. And with it, they had a new, elected leader: Adolf Hitler.

The Germans were dissatisfied. Their King had agreed to what the Vienna Council(?) the pre-cursor to The United Nations had decided. They needed someone new. Someone to help them show the world they couldn't be beaten.

Yes, we're going into a recession (or are in one). However, we're neither humiliated and we haven't been told to disband our military forever.

I'm not sure what the commercial is trying to say. Not sure what else everyone else is saying.

I'll give this President a chance. But as daleduke17 said ... how do those in the Senate know that Obama isn't as unintelligent as President Bush? He was barely around while campaigning for President.

We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.

[Greenday]

Wasn't Germany held almost exclusively responsible for WWI?

I think that depends on who you ask. If you ask me, I'd say no, it was the Allied Powers that fired the first shot provoking everyone. Serbia assassinated the Arch Duke of Austria-Hungary. Austria-Hungary then goes to kick Serbia's ass as that started a war between the two. Russia backed Serbia. Germany then backed Austria-Hungary. Then, I don't recall why, Germany invaded Belgium. Then everyone else figured it was time to get involved. But the Serbs started the chain reaction making them responsible for the war.

[AdminAssistant]

Wasn't Germany held almost exclusively responsible for WWI? Weren't they devestated not only physically (having the war brought to the countyr), but devestated economically, and told they were no longer able to raise either a military (without approval of the other nations around it) nor could they have any weaponry.

Your right, Rum. Watch Triumph of the Will, the German people were practically falling over themselves to zieg hiel Hitler - there's even one shot of a mother teaching her young child to...chilling, now. But the Germans truly believed that Hitler was Germany's best chance to regain the ground lost during and after World War I.

I think it's astoundingly clear that Obama is, at least, a very eloquent, articulate, well-educated man. I know that's not necessarily a marker of true intelligence - but he comes across much better than George II did and will make a better representative of the US on the world stage. Will he be successful? I certainly hope so, but I'm not expecting miracles next Wednesday. First of all, there's Congress - the actions of the Democratic leadership have been unbelievable lately. I think Obama is capable of great things if he can get his Congress behind his decisions. But they will take time, and I'm hoping that the American people, left and right, have the patience it will take to turn the economy around and to straighten out the various messes going on in the Middle East.

But I'm going to miss "Great Moments in Presidential Speeches" on Letterman...

[Slytovhand]

Ok....well, if you have a group of IRA attack, who takes them out? I assume a regular riot would be taken care of by local police. I'm pretty sure MI-6 is forbidden to operate on native soil, just like our CIA is.
SAS (Special Air Services). MI-? may organise the initial intelligence, but wouldn't be in the raid (oh, this isn't including covert intelligence or security issues. AFAIK, MI-? might organise and conduct an assassination or terrorist bombing (so, I'm a conspiracy theorist :D), but as for raids as you exampled, no...).

Wasn't Germany held almost exclusively responsible for WWI?

Again, as part of "who you ask", 'Serbia started it' is also probably one-eyed. Granted, it's what I was taught in history, but that doesn't make it entirely true. Brief Wiki history lesson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_keg_of_Europe) I'm thinking some 'fermenting' was done to instigate it all, not just a 'lone gunman' thing... Besides, although a Serb did the assassination, Austria-Hungary made ludicrous demands that weren't going to be met - and they knew it. So they used that as an excuse to start the war going. As it says in that article, Russia also joined in - even though there was no need nor obligation to. Then the snowball just went rolling.

From Treaty of Versailles: # Article 231 (the "War Guilt Clause") lays sole responsibility for the war on Germany, which would be accountable for all the damage done to civilian population of the allies.

Also:More German sore points... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles#Impositions_on_Germany)

Especially - Germany will finish paying off her World War I reparations in 2020.[15]

WWII was basically caused by Germany trying to get itself out of a massive depression, and to get it's pride back. The land it 'invaded' in Czechoslovakia had a high population of Germans, and so also in Poland - which were former German territories. Thus, Hitler, a WWI hero and nationalist, was able to instill pride back in Germany, began a major series of capital works programs to improve the economy (by spending tax dollars... always a good way to make people happy), and eventually to look after the 'lost' Germans... So, originally, Hitler was a great inspiration to all the people (and wasn't an obvious loon). The Jewish issue was a fairly popular one throughout all of Europe at the time - he just exaggerated it a bit later in his career. (Russia had been doing it for years, they were unpopular in England and France, Judaism had never been strong in Spain thanks to Torquemada).

How does this relate to current thread?? What would happen if China decided to alter it's trade agreement with the US? What would happen if the world changed to Euros instead of US dollars as the main trading currency (thus, all that percentage of each and every trade no longer going to US.. which is billions), and if more oil was shipped out of the Middle East (making US oil less necessary? Or, heaven forbid, we should find better alternative power supplies?) The US economy starts to really dry up, people don't get paid at all rather than just late (ie - Social Security), price of food goes up, rent goes up, electricity goes up... let's blame someone... how about the Mexicans - they keep coming in and stealing our jobs and taking our money.

No, your military hasn't been told to disband permanently, but it is involved in things that is dragging out and with no reasonable timeframes. The US government is also getting it's nose in Israel (along with a lot of others, true - and trying to make things work), but it usually appears that they support Israel. Will there be another flashpoint elsewhere?? Will Afghanistan and Iraq be the end? Or, will Iran and Korea be pushed to a brink? (and if so, what happens to US Koreans or US Iranians?)

When the economy is crap, a good war is exactly what you need to get out of it.

[ExiledV20]

SAS (Special Air Services). MI-? may organise the initial intelligence, but wouldn't be in the raid (oh, this isn't including covert intelligence or security issues. AFAIK, MI-? might organise and conduct an assassination or terrorist bombing (so, I'm a conspiracy theorist :D), but as for raids as you exampled, no...).

Ah, yes! SAS suborned to MI-5 for planning and assault.
Tsk. Knew I should have re-read my Le Carre and Forsyth.

What would happen if China decided to alter it's trade agreement with the US?

They already have. See this this link (http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12948617) about China's future and note that they're not buying Treasury bonds from us anymore. (http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/07/business/yuan.php) What you're currently seeing economically is part of that fallout.

What would happen if the world changed to Euros instead of US dollars as the main trading currency (thus, all that percentage of each and every trade no longer going to US.. which is billions), and if more oil was shipped out of the Middle East (making US oil less necessary? Or, heaven forbid, we should find better alternative power supplies?)

As for the first, if the Euro became king, then Americans would be looking to sell anything and everything to Euros visiting the USA, much as we did with the Japanese back in the 1980s. This did not work out very well for the Japanese in the long run. In fact, it caused their economic recession in the early 90s - we were able to sell them lots of boondoggles and then buy back a ton of shit for profitable pennies later on.

Unless most Euros have gotten REALLY savvy about American culture all of a sudden, I think this is very likely to happen again in that scenario. :D

If more oil is shipped out of the Middle East, the USA will be very very happy...so long as it comes to us. After all, no other country is buying OUR oil; we're using it all ourselves. We import oil, we don't export it. So far, our native oil production in the USA fits approximately 1/3 of our oil needs. We are desparately dependent on foreign oil. Alternative energy sources could only benefit us at this time.

The US economy starts to really dry up, people don't get paid at all rather than just late (ie - Social Security), price of food goes up, rent goes up, electricity goes up... let's blame someone... how about the Mexicans - they keep coming in and stealing our jobs and taking our money.

Que? Dude, most Americans consider the above scenario to be happening RIGHT NOW, not in the future. People really have no concept how bad it can get anymore. Our current unemployment rate of 7.2% is considered to be staggering. No one can even comprehend the 25-35% of the Depression anymore. The fact that jobless claims in my state of Georgia rose 174% last month has got the state government reeling. The sky really is falling down; we can't absorb that many people.

No, your military hasn't been told to disband permanently, but it is involved in things that is dragging out and with no reasonable timeframes. The US government is also getting it's nose in Israel (along with a lot of others, true - and trying to make things work), but it usually appears that they support Israel. Will there be another flashpoint elsewhere?? Will Afghanistan and Iraq be the end? Or, will Iran and Korea be pushed to a brink? (and if so, what happens to US Koreans or US Iranians?)

When the economy is crap, a good war is exactly what you need to get out of it.

I wish I could believe that.

Fact: We do not have the troops to sustain the battlefronts in both Iraq and Afghanistan AND maintain the Korean defense line AND remain stationed in Europe. It's essentially 4 fronts and we don't have the people.

Currently, the plan is to withdraw from Iraq, strip the European bases of their garrisons and focus on Afghanistan. We're afraid that if we budge from Korea, the North Koreans are gonna come screaming over the line and then we're trading nukes with China.

Fact: We're really, aside from some rah-rah material and brandishing of fists, not interested in taking on Iran or North Korea, much as we are NOT interested in Cuba. We're very happy to maintain the rhetoric, but frankly, we'd need full deployment and drafts to hit them. No thanks.

[Evandril]

Fact: We're really, aside from some rah-rah material and brandishing of fists, not interested in taking on Iran or North Korea, much as we are NOT interested in Cuba. We're very happy to maintain the rhetoric, but frankly, we'd need full deployment and drafts to hit them. No thanks.

With the new people in charge, I'm much more inclined to believe that now ;) I always knew it'd be a *BAD* idea...but was honestly surprised some of our actions concerning Korea didn't have them at our throats a while back. *shrugs*

[ditchdj]

Oh no the Patriot Act really isnt THAT bad. Unless you do something "naughty" like discipline your kids or make out on a plane....

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-airline-felonies20-2009jan20,0,5468299.story?page=1

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20090120/ap_tr_ge/travel_brief_airplane_confrontations_1

----One reason why I won't fly. Makes me wonder what some people's definition of martial law really is when you can be thrown in jail for putting your freakin' head in someone's lap and slapped with a FELONY! Yet not one terrorist attack was thwarted by this thing.

[Shangri-laschild]

I found the ad on the think.mtv.com website (http://think.mtv.com/044FDFFFF009BD7C900170098F589/). It looks like the video is sponsored by the Gedenk Movement. Their website doesn't seem to still be up, but when I googled them, it showed up (with a broken link) with this: "The Gedenk Movement (Remember!) A humanitarian campaign to raise youth awareness about genocide through art and education." I was also able to find this website: http://holocaustshoeproject.org/gedenk2.html It honestly does sound like a youth awareness project. A lot of kids (and adults) tend to see history as just something in the past that doesn't affect them or have anything to do with them. I don't know that I see anything wrong with that, and MTV does seem like a good way to reach a lot of younger people.