From CS: Not sure how to feel about this situation

[Seshat]

Original Thread here.


Megaquote for those who haven't read the CS thread. (Those who have, please move on)
MJR is the original poster.

DISCLAIMER: I wholly recognize that a lot of folks on gov't assistance are good, hard-working people who are trying to take care of themselves and their children, and just get by. In this case, however, I am speaking of this ONE person in this ONE instance!

Ok, here's some background.

I have a cousin who, for lack of a better way of putting it, seems like an EW to me.

She's basically dumb as a box of rocks. She may have some sort of legitimate, undiagnosed neurological/learning disorder, I don't know, but she just seems flat-out dumb to me.

I don't mean any offense to those who have friends or relatives with legitimate neurological/learning struggles. As someone who is the parent of a child with certain special needs, I understand some of the challenges that come with neurological and/or learning struggles.

Anyway, she's in her early thirties, with two kids from two separate men. I get the feeling these were one-night stands. One of the guys is a real "winner" (sarcasm), who basically doesn't provide her with any type of assistance.

She recently completed a "Basic Education" course at a nearby junior college.

I'm wholeheartedly in favor of people improving themselves (I work in an industry where I basically have to learn almost constantly).

I suppose kudos to her are in order there, but if I understand correctly what she took, it's basically "Congratulations! You now know what a ninth grader does!"

And she was relieved she passed her courses.

I believe she also receives some sort of government assistance. I only bring that up because it's relevant in this case.

End Background.

Recently on FaceBook, she was talking about how she signed her daughter up for pee-wee cheerleading. Then she basically pops onto FaceBook and asks people to buy some kind of handbag to help her daughter raise money for her cheerleading stuff. But it wasn't "Hey, my daughter is selling some fundraising stuff if anyone is interested." The tone was more of a "begging for people to buy stuff" kind of thing. She also asked for "donations".

Is that the norm on FaceBook? I'm not really much into Social Media. I don't have a FaceBook account.

The Sign-up for that was something like $65. Plus some additional stuff that added up to near $150 or so.

She also did something very similar. She posted that she shelled out $95 (that she most likely didn't have) so her son could play pee-wee (American) football.

Now, I wouldn't really have an issue with this if I didn't get an EW vibe from the posts.

I also believe (but don't know this for a fact) that she has some sort of SmartPhone. I believe this because she recently went to a concert and posted photos on her FB page that look like they were taken with a SmartPhone.

Now, I don't begrudge anyone having a SmartPhone. I think they're cool. I don't own one, as I think some of the data plans with my current carrier are a ripoff. So I just have a "basic" flip phone (Hey! Don't laugh!!).

She also posted something I guess she got from some site somewhere that reads, verbatim:

"If your rent and bills are paid, food on the table, clothes on your back, and you don't have any money left over, don't let anyone tell you you're broke cause you took care of BUSINESS!!" (edited for grammar)

And while it's a nice sentiment, you are indeed broke if that's the case. And it's KNOWN. No amount of sugar-coating changes that fact.

She also talks about all the stuff she does "for [her] babies". Which again, is all well and good if she didn't make it sound like some extraordinary effort. It's like the old Chris Rock routine where he talks about how people want credit for stuff they're supposed to do:

"I take care of my kids!"
"You're supposed to! What? You want a medal or something??"

I participated in some activities when I was younger, and my parents weren't exactly wealthy. Income wise, I think they were just barely above the line for assistance, I don't know. They weren't even middle class. I took Tae Kwon Do for 2 1/2 years, which was $20 a month. I played a season of little league baseball, which I'm sure cost money. I played soccer for a couple of seasons. And sure, we did fundraisers for the baseball and soccer, but that wasn't to buy uniforms. To my knowledge, my parents (and at some point "parent" because they divorced) didn't borrow the money for me to do these things.

But I'm getting a little off track.

I was talking to my wife about this last night. We're both torn on how to feel.

First off, we do feel bad for her kids. But moreso:

1. Is it cruel to think that she should tell her kids "no" to these activities? Primarily because she can't afford it (we doubt she'll sell enough for the fundraiser to cover costs), and should be using that money for other things? Part of me (and my wife) thinks this way, and we feel a little heartless for it.

2. Is it OK for her to let her kids do these things, even though she really can't afford it?

The wife and I feel bad for her kids, but her EW attitude (and the whole "Look at me! Look at what a great mom I am!" attitude) has not garnered her any real sympathy from us.

If I have offended anyone in this post, please accept my sincere apology, as that was not my intent.

... and later:

I don't think this would bother me as much as it does if she weren't on gov't assistance. I think that may be the issue.

It's not that she's putting her kids in these activities even though she can't afford it, it's that she's putting them in activities even though she can't afford itand she's on gov't assistance.

[siead_lietrathua]

i dunno about this. after all, there are parents that AREN'T on social assistance that engage in fundraising so their kids can go to sport or school events. school sport teams here are constantly selling things (chocolates, magazines, whatev) to pay for trips, or new uniforms or equipment etc.

the idea that she's on assistance, so her kids shouldn't be fundraising for events, makes no sense to me when other families not on social assistance would probably be doing the exact same fundraiser.

hell, it makes more sense for the poorer kids to fundraise than the kids with parents that can easily pay their own way.

[Seshat]

What is government assistance for?

If it's for providing temporary subsistance income for people who have come across a rough spot in their lives, then yes, it's wrong for people to use it when they're not in a temporary rough spot.

If it's for providing for people who cannot provide for themselves; then what level of life do you want those people to have? Subsistence living? I hope not! Ekeing out a subsistence with no hope for anything better, ever, is an almost guarantee of despair; and of desperation. And desperate people with nothing to lose are a social problem. Remember, these are by definition people with no ability to provide for themselves.

What about people with a partial ability to provide for themselves?
How do you feel about such people doing partial government assistance, partial self-assistance? And should they be allowed small 'luxuries' such as skill training for their children? Sports?

And so what if their 'providing for themselves' starts out as raffles and bake sales and trying to sell overpriced handbags? These are the techniques that fundraiser parents usually recommend! Where is she going to learn other ways to raise money?

Running a home business takes skill and knowledge, sending your kids on a fundraiser that someone else has taught them how to do, doesn't. Finding a job is bloody hard for people with the advantages, how much harder for someone like her?
She may be trying the 'wrong' methods, but at least she's trying.


The next step, of course, is for her to learn the 'right' methods. But that takes both time and effort, and not just from her but from someone who is willing and capable to teach it.


What I hope is that someone teaches them to her children. Because otherwise, they're likely to enter adulthood with no better knowledge than she.

[Kheldarson]

hell, it makes more sense for the poorer kids to fundraise than the kids with parents that can easily pay their own way.

Well, from what I read of the thread, there's a slight difference.

It's one thing to fundraise to, say, go on a big team event (We made state! We're going to sell chocolates to help pay for a bus!) or even for a generic pool (We sell chocolates every year to help make sure all the boys have a full kit!).

It's another to go "Here, buy this stuff so my kid can be exactly like the other kids because I'm not going to give up on my fun stuff so he can have fun".

Which is what I think mjr's cousin is saying/presenting.

[Seshat]

"Here, buy this stuff so my kid can be exactly like the other kids because I'm not going to give up on my fun stuff so he can have fun".

That's true.

"Here, buy this stuff so my kid can have fun, I've already given up my own luxuries," is what I was thinking of. Or maybe the parent hasn't given up every luxury, but I don't grudge anyone a packet of cheap cookies every so often.

But "I won't sacrifice anything for my kids" parents give me the grumbles, no matter whether they're poor or rich.

[Canarr]

But "I won't sacrifice anything for my kids" parents give me the grumbles, no matter whether they're poor or rich.

Do we know that is the case here? Even the OP admits that he doesn't really know for a fact that she has a smartphone, etc; he just believes it due to some photos that might have come from a smartphone... seriously?

[Fire_on_High]

Sorry, but I think the responsible thing to do if you're taking any form of assistance IS to tell your children "No, we can't afford that, I'm sorry.". To do any less merely teaches them it's fine to shift the burdens of basic existence to everyone else so they can fritter away their own money for luxuries.

I can't quite bring myself to say it should be an enforced law, simply because it'd cost taxpayers even more to enforce it....but if you're on assistance, you should learn to simply do without. If you're not, you go without rather than go on assistance.

[anakhouri]

From my reading, it seemed to me the OP's cousin was demanding congratulations for how many things she did for her kids:

She also talks about all the stuff she does "for [her] babies". Which again, is all well and good if she didn't make it sound like some extraordinary effort.

But she was actually asking other people to do stuff for her 'babies'- the vibe I got the fundraising thing was not, "Hey, Kid's Team is doing a fundraiser so if anyone needs an expensive purse (never heard of a fundraiser like that BTW) click this link." but more like, "Kid NEEEEEDS this to keep doing cheerleading so pleeeease buy this expensive stuff or she will be crushed and also you can just give us a money."

It sounded to me like it was the disconnect (I take care of my kids' desires/YOU please take care of my kids' desires) that really bothered the OP.

I also understand that, as a financially responsible person, it can be frustrating to see others who aren't being responsible. We don't have smartphones, tablets, e-readers, game systems, go on vacation, etc because we are tightly budgeting in order to put away money for our children's future. Everyone can make their own choices but in the future it will be the children who suffer (and someday our sons will understand why we went without some things and be grateful for it), and that's frustrating to watch when you're working so hard to provide for your own kids- without begging anyone else for help.

[s_stabeler]

to be honest, I'm conflicted myself. It sounds to me like your cousin is in a situation where she doesn't have much choice but to be on government assistance. (as for the Basic Education course, it occurs to me that it's a good thing regardless of why she took it- it means she's doing SOMETHING to help her situation)

on the other hand, my sympathy for her really depends on why she needs to ask for help from others- if she's going without for her kids, then I have more sympathy than if she wants both her & the kids to have luxuries w/o being able to afford it.

[BlaqueKatt]

but if you're on assistance, you should learn to simply do without. If you're not, you go without rather than go on assistance.

ah, poor people shouldn't have nice things because if they're miserable they won't want to be poor.(this is a belief that goes back to puritians by the way)


that seems to be the prevailing attitude, poor people aren't "allowed" to be happy, they should supplicate themselves before the public and suffer shame for daring to be poor AND maybe have a nice thing or two.

And pay that $300 ETF so they can sell the iphone for $100, because they're poor, and shouldn't have it.

few articles on that:
one

two

They didn’t care that we didn’t have new winter coats, or shoes without holes in them, or food in our cupboards. They didn’t care that we missed school field trips because we couldn’t afford them, or that we picked rotten spots off the top of pudding and ate it, and only turned the heat on when the temperature fell below zero, because we couldn’t afford to even be warm all the time. They did not care about what we didn’t have.
They cared that we had a nice thing - that we had had ONE nice thing - and they resented it.

This is why poor people's "bad decisions" make perfect sense(it's actually a series)

[cewfa]

I am currently on disability (America) for several different reasons. When you boil all of those reasons down the main reason I am on disability is because I was robbed at gunpoint two and a half years ago and came pretty close to getting shot and killed. It took about a year for the shock to wear off and then I kind of lost it. I am in the process of recovery at this point and am unsure of what exactly the future holds. When I am asked about it, my response is "anything is possible."

Before I got on disability, I worked and paid into the system, pretty much full time, doing multiple different jobs since I was 18 (I'm 28 now). I don't see myself as "taking" anything. I was productive at one point in my life and paid into a system that is there to get me through an unforeseen circumstance, be it temporary or permanent. I have ZERO qualms about being on disability, and I have ZERO qualms about doing fun things after I pay my bills. If people don't like it, fuck them. It isn't any of their business anyway.

However, I don't go on Facebook and ask anyone for money to finance my activities either. I do what I can afford and if I want something, I put money back until I can buy it.

[siead_lietrathua]

Sorry, but I think the responsible thing to do if you're taking any form of assistance IS to tell your children "No, we can't afford that, I'm sorry.". To do any less merely teaches them it's fine to shift the burdens of basic existence to everyone else so they can fritter away their own money for luxuries.

wait. her kids were FUNRAISING. it doesn't matter how the mom worded it on FB. if she has shitty communication skills, that's her bag.

but the kids were fundraising for what they wanted to do. they were learning that if they want to do something nice, they have to work for the money to spend on it. how the hell is that teaching them to be moochers?

again, if people NOT on welfare can fundraise for their team and noone cares, then the people ON welfare should be able to do the same without getting harshness. if people that CAN afford things still fundraise for extra money for luxuries, then people that CAN'T afford things should not be getting drama for doing the same.

frankly, i have respect for any kid willing to bust their ass and raise money for what they want to do than someone who thinks they can't do it because they're poor and gives up.

[Seshat]

Another note:

It doesn't matter how low the general education was; if it was work for her, then it was an achievement. And she has every right to be proud; and friends and family should be proud for her.

And as someone else pointed out, it's evidence that she's attempting to improve her life (and her hire-ability), and therefore is NOT bludging or lazing about. Sure, it may be slow progress; but she's progressing and striving.

[patiokitty]

My take on mjr's post is it is not the the kids are doing fundraising as part of activities but that the mother was selling stuff to pay for the activities in the first place, or basically trying to guilt people into giving her money so she can pay for her kids to take part in their activities. And then she is going on about what a great mother she is even though this money was gained through her guilt-tripping.

I've been on welfare in the past and it sucked. I only used it when I was not in the position to work - during the first three years of my son's life, and then later when I left an abusive ex and had no job only to have a complete mental breakdown shortly after that left me unable to work. I certainly did not expect anybody to give me money for anything for my son during any of that, and when I was working it wasn't any different. If I knew there was something coming up that my son wanted to do or wanted I would save my pennies to be able to afford it, even if it meant that I went without something. Sometimes people offered to help, but I NEVER asked for it. And he knew that I could not afford the expensive stuff at the best of times - if he really wanted it, he would give his grandparents broad hints but it was never due to me urging him to ask them.

I have friends are on disability, one of which who has never been able to to work, and even they don't beg for monetary assistance from people. One does crafty things that she sells to make some extra bucks, another provides proof-reading and editing to university students, a couple more tutor or look after kids to get a little play money. Hell, back during my first stint on welfare I babysat to make a few bucks that usually went towards providing a decent Christmas for my son (I never put my name in for a Christmas hamper during that time even though I qualified - I reasoned that there were people worse off than me).

If a person is on welfare or disability because they have no real choice, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's the people who are perfectly capable of holding a job but can't be arsed to do more than milk the system that piss me off, and I know entirely too many like this. Yes, I have anonymously reported the worst offenders for their actions - their shit just doesn't fly with me at all. Especially when it is so easy for them to get a government hand-out, and people who are honestly down on their luck have to jump through a ton of hoops and still may end up getting nothing. This was reinforced for me when I went to college through a special program that was NOT funded by welfare or the federal government - I was put in a position where if I wanted any sort of assistance (my paycheque being topped up by Welfare and daycare subsidy) that I could not quit my job to go focus on my f/t studies so I could eventually get a better job, nor could I quit school! That was a fun year and a bit of my life, let me tell you. Yet the chick who lived next door who could pick up work anywhere as a hairdresser and had no real excuse why she couldn't at least work while her kid was in school f/t was able to remain on Welfare benefits while living with her parents rent free, driving a brand new jeep, and always blowing money on expensive crap. Yeah, she got reported as soon as I had all the evidence I could...and then when she was investigated and got cut off she was screaming about how she couldn't afford anything anymore, blah blah blah. No sympathies on my part at all. Especially when the kid's father was fully in the picture. She used to BRAG about how she was screwing the system, to top it all off.

[Canarr]

again, if people NOT on welfare can fundraise for their team and noone cares, then the people ON welfare should be able to do the same without getting harshness. if people that CAN afford things still fundraise for extra money for luxuries, then people that CAN'T afford things should not be getting drama for doing the same.

This. Exactly this.