NJ referendum on raising minimum wage. Opinions?

[Gravekeeper]

I'm still trying to figure out why those who are in dire straits would want more people to be in dire straits as opposed to mandating that nobody be below a value determined to be as "not in dire straits."

Thats why this whole argument irks me. People arguing against their own self interest is half the reason the US is in this whole mess to begin with.

[Andara Bledin]

I've never had much patience for unfounded fears based on scaremongering, to be honest.

That's part of why I have so little respect for people who accept the word of the people who are the targets of such legislation without any effort at all to do any research on the matter and just cower and fight against measure that would help them and everyone around them.

Honestly, people should be ashamed that a man from another country knows more about the laws and conditions and history of the place they live than they do.

It shouldn't take a history lesson to show that raising the minimum wage has never resulted in mass firings or economic downturn. Ever. In some cases it actually results in an increase in employment.

[kamn]

I'm still trying to figure out why those who are in dire straits would want more people to be in dire straits as opposed to mandating that nobody be below a value determined to be as "not in dire straits."

I mean, I can sort of understand those who've managed to claw their way up the chain a bit, in a rather selfish, sour-grapes sort of way, but those who have nothing -and thus would only benefit- fighting against their own betterment is baffling.

Perhaps because they feel like they might/will get fired, if the economic change proposed might leave their employer unable to pay at all. Something that employers are probably saying, constantly, over there right now.

Another possibility would be fear of change. Fear of the unkown. Even if the change is for the better, it will bring with it new challanges and one could be afraid of being unable to live up/accomplish those challanges.

[Andara Bledin]

To have someone say that they shouldn't look beyond their station is so disheartening. People have value, that value should not merely be based on how many hours you can work without dropping for the least gain.

I'm still trying to figure out why those who are in dire straits would want more people to be in dire straits as opposed to mandating that nobody be below a value determined to be as "not in dire straits."

I mean, I can sort of understand those who've managed to claw their way up the chain a bit, in a rather selfish, sour-grapes sort of way, but those who have nothing -and thus would only benefit- fighting against their own betterment is baffling.

[KitterCat]

Oh and for the record. No, they were things I should have understood were above my station to begin with and not gotten too attached to.

I for one do not want to back to an 1800's, early 1900 era where children had to work inorder for a family to survive or adults had to underbid each other to even get work. Wanting to be treated like a human is not above "my station" nor should it be yours.

While raising the minimum wage is a multifacited problem, there are fixes that could be placed to force compnys to enact raises. Stop sending work to countries that have no workers rights, no regulations to follow and pay pennies. If a company wants to make something out of country make them pay a tariff to bring it in. The only exclusions would be for food, or items we do not produce.

Stop giving raises and platinum parachute to executives when a companys going bankrupt. Stop calling a company a person for legal reasons. And on the otherside of the companies, lower the corporate tax. Is it any wonder a company looks else where to set up shop where they dont have to pay a much in taxes simply for running a profitable business?

To have someone say that they shouldn't look beyond their station is so disheartening. People have value, that value should not merely be based on how many hours you can work without dropping for the least gain.

[Hyena Dandy]

Oh and for the record. No, they were things I should have understood were above my station to begin with and not gotten too attached to.

Additionally, I'm sorry that you feel that way. The idea of "Above your station" is disgusting to me. You have inherent worth as a human being. You should not have to suffer.

[Gravekeeper]

Smiley noted this but you all pooh-poohed it. It'll only be further devalued if the bottom is raised.

"Pooh-poohed" it? Seriously? I demonstrated, with all available evidence, that everything smiley noted was simply not true. Both from a modern and historical perspective. It has never happened before in US history when the minimum wage was raised. US labour is already undervalued both compared to the rest of the industrialized world and compared to its own history.

If you want to argue against reality, that's your prerogative, but don't sit there and pretend like its a legitimate position.

[Hyena Dandy]

Smiley noted this but you all pooh-poohed it. It'll only be further devalued if the bottom is raised.

More people being able to live well does not devalue hard work. The poor suffering should not be interpreted as a feature in our society.

[Fire_on_High]

Being born to the right family is luck. Most likely the biggest indicator if you're going to be dirt poor no matter what you do, or filthy rich no matter what you do, is having the right set of parents. Second biggest is the right set of genes.

Working hard, being smart, trying to get ahead has been devalued to the point it's not even worth trying. Any old ideas about "Go to school, make good money." are so hopelessly out of date it's absurd. "Go to school, owe lots of money." maybe.

Smiley noted this but you all pooh-poohed it. It'll only be further devalued if the bottom is raised.

Oh and for the record. No, they were things I should have understood were above my station to begin with and not gotten too attached to.

[Hyena Dandy]

Oh, don't worry. That's the next thing to go, and I'm sure more'll be glad to see it than not. We're already skimping on food to keep it as long as possible, but there's only so much you can cut.

...Kay.

Total number of words in Duelist's post - 317.

Total number of words used to make the point you're addressing - 35.

You gonna address any of his actual points, or are you just gonna be sarcastic?



Additionally, in your appeal-to-tradition, you seem to have forgotten two things. One, traditionally, most of humanity had way more free time than we do now. Two - Traditionally, luck had to do with it. Now, Luck has less, in the US, to do with it. It's still a major factor. Who you know matters. Who your family is matters.

Why should people suffer for being unlucky?

[Duelist925]

Oh, don't worry. That's the next thing to go, and I'm sure more'll be glad to see it than not. We're already skimping on food to keep it as long as possible, but there's only so much you can cut.

Thank you for responding to exactly one aspect of my post and completely ignoring the rest.

That you've been having to skimp on food sucks ass. That you're likely to lose the Net sucks even more. These are not good things, not things that anyone should be happy to see going. I hope things work out well for you.

But this really just reinforces--the minimum wage in this country is not high enough to support anywhere close to a "decent" life style.

That you're an example of this saddens me greatly.

[Fire_on_High]

Oh, don't worry. That's the next thing to go, and I'm sure more'll be glad to see it than not. We're already skimping on food to keep it as long as possible, but there's only so much you can cut.

[Duelist925]

That's mush minded nonsense. Historically most of humanity has lived a hand to mouth existence, with a small number of the superior in intellect or luck being able to enjoy life at the top rather than endure it with everyone else.


What we see now is a blip, and is already adjusting back to proper existence.

Historically, people died of wounds that are now so cheap to treat it's a fucking miracle. Is people dieing of the most basic of wounds "proper existence"?

Historically, life expectancy was extremely low because you weren't expected to live past childhood. Hence, gaggles of kids. Should people still be pumping out a dozen kids if possible, and losing over half to various diseases we've basically turned into non issues?

Historically, slavery was a thing. I'm not even bringing racial slavery into this, slavery in one form or other has been a "thing" until pretty much now. Even now its a thing, just much less of one. Should that return because "proper existance"?

Historically, life fucking sucked for everyone, and sucked just slightly less for an elite few.

Why the fuck should now be the same, when life is the best it's been* in all of recorded history, and probably unrecorded history as well?

An appeal to tradition? Seriously? At least come up with an argument. Just because shit sucked in the past in absolutely no reason why it should suck now. Especially when the situations are NOWHERE near the same.

People lived hand to mouth in the past because they literally had to. Now? There is no reason for people to have to live like that in a supposedly first world country.

I'm broke as fuck and about to be broker still. Anyone else's response to my fuming that I had to give up what few luxuries I had and will most likely have to give up the net next has been "Quit whining and work more. It's not like those are necessary, so get over it."

That's pretty much what I get to look forward to and you know what? I'm gonna embrace it and kick it's ass. Anyone else bloody well can too.

So because others were bastards to you, you're going to pass that on? Hey, good for you for embracing that shit and all, but to go shoving it down others throats because "That the way it's always been" is utter bunk.


Incidentally, you DO realize that the vast majority of people opposed to minimum wage increases consider the internet a luxury, right? By your own words, you shouldn't be wasting time or money on this forum.





*For the most part. There are a number of areas that still suck ass, socially, politically, economically, ecologically, etc.

[Aethian]

No ones laughing at you or telling you to quiet whining, at least I don't see it on here. But you saying that your going to get to such a area that your going to have NOTHING to de stress I call bull on.

In your off time in whatever amount it is, I'm sure your going to fine SOMETHING that you can enjoy and not worry about work. Least it be taking a walk/reading/writing/cleaning/ect...

[Fire_on_High]

I'm broke as fuck and about to be broker still. Anyone else's response to my fuming that I had to give up what few luxuries I had and will most likely have to give up the net next has been "Quit whining and work more. It's not like those are necessary, so get over it."

That's pretty much what I get to look forward to and you know what? I'm gonna embrace it and kick it's ass. Anyone else bloody well can too.