NJ referendum on raising minimum wage. Opinions?

[Aethian]

That's mush minded nonsense.

Wut? You really think the poor shouldn't be allowed ANY type of recreation? So what those below a certain amount economical level should work 15 hours a day and get a hour for travel with 8 hours for sleep? Non stop...since stopping may mean they might do something to de stress from crazies at work...and not ya know turn into a lifeless robot or someone whose goes on a killing rampage because they mentally snap...

[Fire_on_High]

Also, I have a problem with the fact that people's idea of the poor is that they should be constantly working and spend no money on themselves. Psychological needs are needs too. The poor should be able to have things that help them relax and destress, too. And the internet is one of the best things possible for that.

That's mush minded nonsense. Historically most of humanity has lived a hand to mouth existence, with a small number of the superior in intellect or luck being able to enjoy life at the top rather than endure it with everyone else.


What we see now is a blip, and is already adjusting back to proper existence.

[HYHYBT]

Raising the minimum wage likely would increase inflation. But what evidence is there that it would be by the same amount or more, as is usually (and above) claimed by those who want to keep it low?

[Judecat]

I'm not saying that is ok. I'm saying that if you raise the minimum wage to double the cost of an apartment per month, the costs of apartments per month will go up in response till you're right back where you started. Keep raising the minimum, and prices keep going up in response, which leads to massive inflation, wiping out the value of people's savings and investments.

In 1968 the minimum wage was $1.60 which back then had the buying power of $6.05. The current minimum wage is $7.25 -- which has the buying power of $4.87. I hardly think that raising the minimum wage has caused all this inflation. I do know that the local c-store chain that I work at has ALWAYS since it was founded payed exactly $1.25 more than minimum wage, and they started with one store and now have 140 stores, and yes their prices have gone up over the years, but that has more to do with the price of chicken and the price of gas and the price of cigarettes than with giving raises to the workers. I know that we have the lowest gas prices in the neighborhood in spite of actually paying more than they have to, and the price of breakfast sandwiches, cigarettes etc are in line with the other c-store/gas stations in the area. I also know that even with $1.25 more than the minimum wage I can't afford my own apartment, I still qualify for food stamps, and I can only buy new shoes and work pants once a year when I get my earned income credit from my tax return. I believe the main contributor to inflation is the over generous salaries at the top of the chain, not the pittance that the lower level workers are making.

[lordlundar]

Yeah like his morality/social police , his blatant extream views on socialism, his rampant anti-Semitism, and anti-union stance.

On the anti-union stance, while it's true Ford did not like unions, he understood why they existed and the best way to avoid them was to make them irrelevant. A well paid and well treated staff have no need for a union which was something Ford was one of the few owners to embrace.

[Hyena Dandy]

That's honestly part of why I think he's such a great guy to talk about in these debates. Because you can point out that his views on wage are not coming from a coddling bleeding-heart liberal.

[Racket_Man]

That's the opposite of Fordism. Ford paid his workers much better than his competitors. He didn't race for the bottom of wages. Ford also was pretty inovative in a number of other areas as well but he was a complete bastard. With those higher wages came some conditions.

Yeah like his morality/social police , his blatant extream views on socialism, his rampant anti-Semitism, and anti-union stance.

[mikoyan29]

But we do still follow Fordism!

A "system designed to spew out standardized, low-cost goods and afford its workers decent enough wages to buy them."

And Wal-Mart pays its employees just enough that they can afford to shop at Wal-Mart.

That's the opposite of Fordism. Ford paid his workers much better than his competitors. He didn't race for the bottom of wages. Ford also was pretty inovative in a number of other areas as well but he was a complete bastard. With those higher wages came some conditions.

[AccountingDrone]

I would love to see the workers of the US get a minimum standard of living -
a dwelling of 250 square feet/24 square meters per person with attendant electricity, basic high speed internet connectivity, a basic cell phone [flip phone with texting, not a smart phone] 2000 calories of food a day [or whatever their metabolism needs plus a little for the hell of it as a luxury - call the extra a nice cupcake once a week or a good 6 pack of beer, whatever their little luxury allotment ends up being] and 2 weeks worth of clothing, household linens, minimum shoes and a good warm coat if needed and 4 weeks of vacation and sick leave each year. I really don't think it is too much to ask for.

One of the serious issues that needs to be addressed is the way workers are treated - to be perfectly blunt, I have no idea why the CEO of most companies is worth that damned much - 10s of or 100s of million $$ a year when most of the time they seem to do very little of any sort of benefit to the companies. The income disparity is baffling. As has been pointed out Costco manages to treat its workers like people instead of cattle and they seem to be doing quite well. Many companies in Europe give their employees 4 weeks of vacation and they seem to be able to keep the production going. I think we need to do something to help reduce employee stress and improving vacation/sick leave and ensuring a basic living ability seem to be the minimum to do to accomplish this.

[Gravekeeper]

We seem to be working from different numbers; I'd read that the minimum wage from the 60's was equivalent to about $17 now. Anyway, the most important part is passing it as permanent law with automatic increases; there would be no having to pass an increase again, nor would shutting down he government stop it.

I'm working from numbers provided by the Labor Department. Here's the chart of minimum wage adjusted to the modern US dollar. As you can see its pretty much been a downhill trip since it was first implemented.

[HYHYBT]

We seem to be working from different numbers; I'd read that the minimum wage from the 60's was equivalent to about $17 now. Anyway, the most important part is passing it as permanent law with automatic increases; there would be no having to pass an increase again, nor would shutting down he government stop it.

Part of the problem, of course, is agreeing on which measure of inflation to call accurate.

[Gravekeeper]

However, having now tried the math, the steps would have to be an amount plus the inflation rate to work reliably in a reasonable timeframe. So try this: current rates tied to inflation, plus a dollar per year until they equal $15 in 2013 dollars. On such a system, at 2% inflation the regular minimum would hit that in 2022 and the separate tipped minimum would cease to exist in 2029. At 5%, those years would be 2024 and 2035.

That would essentially flip the US to having the highest minimum wage in the world in a matter of years. Aside from the fact it would simply never happen given the US's political system, I doubt its economy could adapt that fast. Plus the GOP would shut the government down once a year every year when it came time to raise it again >.>

Ideally, it should be raised to about $10.55/hour. Which equalizes it for inflation with what minimum wage paid in the 60s. That would put it on par with other industrialized nations. Then it can be tied to inflation and raised annually.

Minimum wage in Canada varies from $10-$11/hour depending on the province and is reviewed and increased every 1-3 years or so. Some provinces adjust it annually based on the projected Consumer Price Index. So purchasing power remains the same.

Which would probably be a good idea in the US as well. Tying it to the Consumer Price Index.

[KabeRinnaul]

A nice summary on Henry Ford for anyone interested:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_...her_wages.html

But we do still follow Fordism!

A "system designed to spew out standardized, low-cost goods and afford its workers decent enough wages to buy them."

And Wal-Mart pays its employees just enough that they can afford to shop at Wal-Mart.

[HYHYBT]

That's basically what Obama is proposing. Raise it to $9 initially to get people above the poverty line then tie it to the rate of inflation so that it goes up annually to keep up.

It's not the same. What I described was a gradual increase in both minimum wages (eventually equalizing them in the process) and tying them to inflation once they reach where they would be had they been that way all along. That is very different than a one-time increase to one of them which then ties it to inflation at much lower value.

However, having now tried the math, the steps would have to be an amount plus the inflation rate to work reliably in a reasonable timeframe. So try this: current rates tied to inflation, plus a dollar per year until they equal $15 in 2013 dollars. On such a system, at 2% inflation the regular minimum would hit that in 2022 and the separate tipped minimum would cease to exist in 2029. At 5%, those years would be 2024 and 2035.

The problem is the poverty line in the US is calculated ridiculously. It's based only on the price of staple foods, and doesn't take into account housing, electricity, etc.

Including those would make it more obvious that it also needs to vary by location.

[wolfie]

Worker engagement in the US is hilariously low. Only 35% of workers report being positively engaged with their jobs. Why are they not positively engaged? Because their employer treats them like cattle.

Employers in the U.S. do NOT treat workers like cattle. After all, there are little things like the SPCA and laws governing the treatment of animals that they'd have to worry about in dealing with cattle, but which are completely silent regarding the treatment of workers.