A question for christians accepting of homosexuality

[jackfaire]

It's a death-penalty sin to be gay.
It's also a death-penalty sin to wear a poly-cotton blend t-shirt or eat shellfish.
Why aren't there fanatical christian groups picketing Gap stores and burning down Red Lobsters all across America?

Lol I got a mental image of sitting at Red Lobster eating with a boyfriend wearing a superhero tshirt and then kissing him on the cheek and having the christian couple next table over freaking cuz omgz they are gay!!!!

[infinitemonkies]

The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself.'

Handjobs for everyone!




It's a death-penalty sin to be gay.
It's also a death-penalty sin to wear a poly-cotton blend t-shirt or eat shellfish.
Why aren't there fanatical christian groups picketing Gap stores and burning down Red Lobsters all across America?

[Hyena Dandy]

Anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell

CURSES! My plan to become an over the top 1950s serial villain has been foiled again!

[HYHYBT]

Right on both counts

[Ghel]

HYHYBT: So if I understand correctly, you don't think that homosexuality is a sin, and you don't think the idea of "hate the sin, love the sinner" should be applied to it.

[HYHYBT]

...saying it's hypocritical is exactly like saying it's hypocritical to continue loving your child, who's taken up stealing candy from the checkout line, unless you love theft too.

But stealing is a behavior. Homosexuality is part of what a person is. It's like saying you hate that your child is left-handed. Depending on what research you look at, it may be more likely that homosexuality is genetically inherited than handedness.

I AGREE with you on that point. I know very well what homosexuality itself is, and I do not believe acting on it to be sinful except where opposite-sex behavior would also be sinful. But then that's a *misapplication* of "hate the sin, love the sinner;" the principle stands. The *principle* is the same as hating theft, even when it's done by someone you love; or better still, hating the fact that your child is a thief precisely *because* you love your child and want him to turn out well.

The trouble comes from people who think they know more than they do throwing in sins that aren't and then saying "we love you but you need to change." From their side, they are (some of them, anyway) legitimately loving the "sinner" while hating the "sin," but since they're wrong on both counts the effect is the same as the outright hatred coming from those who only use the phrase as a cover.

[Ghel]

To my way of thinking (granted, I'm not a Christian), even if homosexuality were a behavior or a choice, there would still be nothing wrong with it.

[Fryk]

And THAT is where the heart of the problem is, methinks. There are so many misguided people in the world, especially in Christianity, who think homosexuality IS a behavior.

I have no idea how to counteract this, except for education and lots of time.

[Ghel]

Well, it depends on how you apply it; remember the joke, "I used to know someone who tried to put the golden rule into practice, and everybody hated him for it. Whatever happened to Bill the masochist, anyway?" Used that way, you could claim to be following it by saying that, since you yourself want to be married to someone of the opposite sex, you're free to make that the only option for everyone else. It wouldn't be *right,* but so little is.

Which is why I actually prefer the Silver Rule: do NOT do unto others what you would NOT have them do unto you. It's a lot less intrusive. But the Golden Rule was quoted, so I based my response on that. Either way, silver or gold, I consider it more of a guideline than a rule.

...saying it's hypocritical is exactly like saying it's hypocritical to continue loving your child, who's taken up stealing candy from the checkout line, unless you love theft too.

But stealing is a behavior. Homosexuality is part of what a person is. It's like saying you hate that your child is left-handed. Depending on what research you look at, it may be more likely that homosexuality is genetically inherited than handedness.

[HYHYBT]

Your third quote, citing the "golden rule," seems to me to call for equality for all people. Which, in the current discussion, suggests that if you want to be allowed to marry whoever you wish, others should be allowed to do the same.

Well, it depends on how you apply it; remember the joke, "I used to know someone who tried to put the golden rule into practice, and everybody hated him for it. Whatever happened to Bill the masochist, anyway?" Used that way, you could claim to be following it by saying that, since you yourself want to be married to someone of the opposite sex, you're free to make that the only option for everyone else. It wouldn't be *right,* but so little is.

As for loving the sinner and hating the sin, again, done right it makes much more sense. But first off, you have to make sure that the "sin" is actually sinful. Assuming it is, though, saying it's hypocritical is exactly like saying it's hypocritical to continue loving your child, who's taken up stealing candy from the checkout line, unless you love theft too.

[Hobbs]

Am I not clear enough? Here, let me try to explain.

The idea of "hate the sin, love the sinner" seems hypocritical to me. How can you denounce an aspect of who the person IS, and still love them? Also, I haven't read or heard anything in Christian doctrine or from Christians that supports this idea. Not only that, but it seems that this statement is only applied to homosexual individuals and not any other type of "sinner."

For this reason, the man who lives by God's standards and not by man's, must needs be a lover of the good, and it follows that he must hate what is evil. Further, since no one is evil by nature, but anyone who is evil is evil because of a perversion of nature, the man who lives by God's standards has a duty of "perfect hatred" (Psalm 139:22) towards those who are evil; that is to say, he should not hate the person because of the fault, nor should he love the fault because of the person. He should hate the fault, but love the man. And when the fault has been cured there will remain only what he ought to love, nothing that he should hate. Augustine, Confessions. 14:6, Penguin ed. trans. Bettenson

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."

IN BRIEF
1870 "God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all" (Rom 11:32).

1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22:PL 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ.

1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man's nature and injures human solidarity.

1873 The root of all sins lies in man's heart. The kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.

1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

1875 Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity, which it allows to subsist in us.

1876 The repetition of sins - even venial ones - engenders vices, among which are the capital sins.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part III. Life in Christ.

As for my discussion of the "golden rule," I'm asking for an end to the discrimination against people based on their sexual orientation. Is that clear enough?

Yes, that's clear...but I didn't understand why you added that at the end of your reply.

[Ghel]

Am I not clear enough? Here, let me try to explain.

The idea of "hate the sin, love the sinner" seems hypocritical to me. How can you denounce an aspect of who the person IS, and still love them? Also, I haven't read or heard anything in Christian doctrine or from Christians that supports this idea. Not only that, but it seems that this statement is only applied to homosexual individuals and not any other type of "sinner."

As for my discussion of the "golden rule," I'm asking for an end to the discrimination against people based on their sexual orientation. Is that clear enough?

[Hobbs]

Well, to be honest, "Love the sinner; hate the sin" is a phrase from St. Augustine (if memory serves).

As for your last part...what exactly are you arguing?

[Ghel]

I don't see where these quotes better reflect the idea of "love the sinner, hate the sin."

The first two seem to be instructions to control your emotions, which is generally a good thing. However, IMO, the threat of eternal hellfire for anyone who calls someone else a fool is immoral (but that's a different discussion).

Your third quote, citing the "golden rule," seems to me to call for equality for all people. Which, in the current discussion, suggests that if you want to be allowed to marry whoever you wish, others should be allowed to do the same. I understand limiting marriage to consenting adults, since marriage is a contract, but I still see no reason to limit marriages to opposite-sex couples.

[Hobbs]

Here Ghel, these quotes are better:

Matthew 5:21
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 7:1
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.