A question for christians accepting of homosexuality

[Fryk]

I thought "immaculate conception" meant that Mary was absolved of all her sins, so she could carry/deliver the son of God?
[/URL]

That's correct. The Immaculate Conception deals with Mary's birth, not Jesus's. The Virgin Birth deals with him.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Also, it is technically possible to conceive a child without having sex. Are all these people absolved of sin, cuz they didn't have sex but still created a child?

[ladyneeva]

I doubt anyone is using homosexuality as a form of birth control.

What about people who happen to be infertile and are glad they are, because they don't want to have children?

Also... is adoption a sin? Because it is basically the same as saying you didn't want the kid in the first place (at least, from the perspective of a culture that actually believes you can go to hell for using any form of birth control).

[Parrothead]

The Bible teaches that Jesus was an immaculate conception. He is not the son of Joseph nor was he the product of pre-marital sex.

I thought "immaculate conception" meant that Mary was absolved of all her sins, so she could carry/deliver the son of God?

Link

[Kheldarson]

Acutally, an infertile married couple can have sex without it being a sin. There are several things needed to have what the Catholic Church considers a marriage: fidelity, indissolubility, and openness to children. On the topic of openness to children, the rule here is if you are preventing the child. Homosexuality, birth control, abortion, etc. are all ways to prevent a child from being brought forth from a union. Infertility is not one. It is still possible for God to bring forth a child from such a union should He desire as long as you as a couple are not doing anything to prevent Him. That's the difference.

[HYHYBT]

Uh, guys...do I even have to mention the Mary, Joseph, Jesus thing here? Last time I checked, they weren't exactly married either. Meaning, that Jesus was *technically* a bastard. If that's the case, then why is what they did OK, but not when anyone else does it?

When anyone else does what, exactly? Conceive without having sex?

[ladyneeva]

What if you know you are infertile, are you still allowed to have sex with your spouse?

Also I find it rather... interesting that you claim homosexuality is a sin because it's sex outside of marriage, when people with that belief are the ones on the leading edge of the drive to bar marriage between same sex partners.

Christianity is just like everything else in the world. A bunch of people who got together and decided to create a bunch of rules for everyone else to follow, rules which don't apply to them because they aren't doing the banned acts to begin with.

[crashhelmet]

Uh, guys...do I even have to mention the Mary, Joseph, Jesus thing here? Last time I checked, they weren't exactly married either. Meaning, that Jesus was *technically* a bastard. If that's the case, then why is what they did OK, but not when anyone else does it?

The Bible teaches that Jesus was an immaculate conception. He is not the son of Joseph nor was he the product of pre-marital sex. "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit." - Matthew 1:18

At the time of conception Mary and Joseph were betrothed, or engaged, but Matthew 1:24 says "When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife."

Matthew 1:25 states "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

To me, it's not the same as what I and others have done. While he may be technically a bastard by reasons of pre-marital conception, I would think this would be the one and only exception to the rule.

CH

[crashhelmet]

Self-loathing seems to be a common theme among Christians.

It's what drives us to better ourselves. It's what drives me anyway.

So, are you saying that infertile couples should never have sex?

That would depend on the situation, I guess. It was explained to me once that when it comes to sex, the difference between "love" and "lust" is the intention and action involved.

"Normal" and "Natural" intercourse (read: Vaginal with no contraceptive methods?) between husband and wife would, in most instances, be an expression of love. Whether or not conception occurs, or even can occur, doesn't matter in that case.

When the intercourse is not "normal" or "natural" is where it becomes an act of lust.

Now, I've never asked what the Church's stance is on intentional sterilization, like a vasectomy or tube ligation, so the only answer that I can come back with is that if it's a sin, God will forgive them if they seek it.

There's a verse that I'm going to have to pour through the New Testament to find again that may apply here as well. It says something along the lines of God doesn't punish those that are unable to recognize they are sinning. Children that don't know better, mentally handicapped, etc. I would think it would apply to the unintentionally infertile in acts of "love."

CH

[protege]

It's a sin of lust just like any other form of sex out of wedlock is. The sin of homosexuality is no greater than the sin that is pre-marital sex and an even lesser sin than me being the father of a 3 year old bastard.

Uh, guys...do I even have to mention the Mary, Joseph, Jesus thing here? Last time I checked, they weren't exactly married either. Meaning, that Jesus was *technically* a bastard. If that's the case, then why is what they did OK, but not when anyone else does it?

Case in point, I have a cousin who was raised in a strict Christian household. My uncle seemed to think that sex of any sort was evil. Of course, this was also the same guy who went *ballistic* when we were watching Top Gun, and one line referred to "getting laid." Up until that point, he'd make comments about how people weren't supposed to have sex unless they were married. That is, until my cousin got knocked up. Almost immediately, he reversed his stand on things, and goes on constantly about how great his granddaughter is Needless to say, quite a few of us (myself included) have taken great delight in pointing out all the hypocrisy...

[jackfaire]

So, are you saying that infertile couples should never have sex?

.

I think rather what he is saying is that they will be sinning but if they are faithful it won't matter.

[Ghel]

...and an even lesser sin than me being the father of a 3 year old bastard.

Self-loathing seems to be a common theme among Christians.

I'll go a step further and say that any sexual act between a husband and wife with the intention of NOT pro-creating is a sin.

So, are you saying that infertile couples should never have sex?


Here's a song on this topic: Defenders of Marriage by Roy Zimmerman.

[crashhelmet]

I'll throw my official stance into this.

Do I think Homosexuality is a sin? Yes, but it's not the attraction to the same sex that's sinful. It's the act itself.

It's a sin of lust just like any other form of sex out of wedlock is. The sin of homosexuality is no greater than the sin that is pre-marital sex and an even lesser sin than me being the father of a 3 year old bastard.

I'll go a step further and say that any sexual act between a husband and wife with the intention of NOT pro-creating is a sin. It doesn't matter if it's in the "proper" hole or not. Condom? Pill? IUD? Rhythm Method? Pull it out and spray it on her face? All acts of lust and therefore a sin.

Thankfully, the Catholic Church teaches that I can absolve myself of these sins through Confession, and/or Contrition based on the simple fact that God is understanding and forgiving. He doesn't expect us all to be like Job. He knows we are constantly tempted and that we are not perfect.

That's my two pennies anyway...

CH

[Lady_Foxfire]

As a Christian, my thoughts on homosexuality basically boil down to:
1) In my heart, I don't believe that homosexuality is a sin, and am inclined to believe that the relevant Bible passages were mistranslated or inserted by someone with an agenda.
2) even if it is a sin, lots of things are sins that I don't see people getting so worked up about. Lying on your tax returns is a sin, and one that negatively affects our society (the money that is being wrongly returned to the taxpayers is not going to fund public work projects like new roads or schools), and I don't see anyone holding signs saying "God hates tax cheats".
3) Even if homosexuality is a sin, and one worth getting excited about, America isn't a Christian country, despite what some people seem to think. Unless congress can prove that homosexuality is such a threat to the fabric of society that it warrents denying people their civil rights (hint: it isn't), then they should stay out of religion and people's private lives.

[Kheldarson]

Saw something a while back that applies here. History Channel did a two part show about the Ten Commandments and their interpretation. What it boiled down to was self-preservation. And if you look at the rest of the chapter that surrounds that particular verse in Leviticus, it's a lot about don't sleep with family, the animals, a woman who's bleeding, etc. All of it will get you killed. Even if it wasn't a literal death sentence, there's also the question of "Can you get continuing viable healthy genetics out of these pairings?" And the answer is mostly no. So genetically, you're killing yourself anyway. So the point is you don't engage in incest, homosexuality, bestiality, etc. because it kills your genetic stock.