Don't Blaspheme!!!

[Sylvia727]

I second what she said. There is nobody else just like Christ, Mohommad, Moses, a Buddha, or any other world religion leader. Even saying that they're equally significant is misleading, because they're significant in different ways. If you want to teach a Buddhist about the importance of Christ to Christians, you need to explain what his impact was, what his message was, and why he was so important. You can't just say, "Well, he was kinda like a Buddha." It's a completely different vibe.

[Boozy]

I know you want some easy analogies, but there aren't any. If you're speaking to a Christian and want them to understand Islam, you just need to teach them about Islam. Its apples and oranges. Mohammad is to Islam as...Mohammad is to Islam.

FYI, there are many buddhas in Buddhism. The Buddha the west is familiar with (Siddhartha Gautama) is not as important in Japan as Amitabha Buddha, another awakened one. Buddhism is also not a religion, it is a school of philosophy.

[Slytovhand]

As Far As I Know, and I Am Not A Muslim:

The first pillar of Islam is that there is no god but Allah, and Mohammad is the last and greatest prophet. So equating Mohammad with Elisha or Moses wouldn't fly. Even equating Mohammad with Jesus wouldn't fly, because to the Muslims Mohammad is a greater prophet, and to the Christians Jesus is on a whole 'nother level, as an incarnation of God himself outanks a mere prophet.

oh - okies...

But... what if I was merely trying to get someone (such as a Xtian) to understand just how important someone was to another's religion...such as saying that Mohammad is to Islam as Jesus is to Christianity? No - certainly not trying to [I]equate/I] the two... but if a Xtian didn't understand just why Mohammad is so damn important to them?? I usually try to put things into the perspective of the person I'm talking to.. to give them some reality on the subject... and hopefully more appreciation.

If it was the other way (talking to a Buddhist), would there be a real issue saying that the Xtian's JC is to them as Buddha is to you (given the obvious religious significances and differences)?

[Sylvia727]

I sort of gave up, cos it appeared they didn't want to listen.

Now that's just sad. How are we supposed to acheive interreligious harmony if people won't listen? I've been listening to the viewpoints of everyone on here, even if I disagree, trying to understand where they're coming from and what they mean. People that won't listen to other religious viewpoints reek of intolerance, even if they're only being disrespectful.

Please explain......

As Far As I Know, and I Am Not A Muslim:

The first pillar of Islam is that there is no god but Allah, and Mohammad is the last and greatest prophet. So equating Mohammad with Elisha or Moses wouldn't fly. Even equating Mohammad with Jesus wouldn't fly, because to the Muslims Mohammad is a greater prophet, and to the Christians Jesus is on a whole 'nother level, as an incarnation of God himself outanks a mere prophet.

[Slytovhand]

That could be, too.

I tend to be very open and accepting of other people, so I guess I just draw in other people who share the same attitudes.

And, I do try not to hurt the feelings of others. If a person brings something to my attention in a non-confrontational manner, I certainly try to avoid causing them distress. Usually, we can come to a compromise.

If some fanatic gets all in my face with the "I'm so persecuted" "you can't do this because of ____" line, I roll my eyes at them.

I like to understand as much as I can about other people, but I would expect that same courtesy from the other side of the fence.

It's like I said about people being overly sensitive, which Sylvia elaborated upon (and that is what I was intending to say...)

We need to communicate and understand each other, rather than getting up in arms right away. (and, IMO, a lot of what people get up in arms about- religiously speaking- is stupid shit).

Well - true... but 'stupid shit' is relative. It's all that 'stupid shit' that has caused and continued wars... but that's just humans for you...if they learnt to obey me in the first place, all that crap wouldn't have happened

[Slytovhand]

It is seen as a religion, but most people don't make the connection. Wiccan =/= magical hag, in other words.

Really?? hmmm.. dunno - either way.

You should have elaborated further and the Xians should have shut up and let you. In my experience, it usually takes half an hour before an innocent, well-intentioned slight can be resolved. One person starts out saying what they meant, the other says what they heard, the first person clarifies, the second person says why s/he found this hurtful, the first person reassures the second that s/he would never want to be hurtful, and then they dance around for another ten minutes reassuring each other that they're still friends. Or maybe that's just my friends. But it works, I assure you.

Yeah - we danced I sort of gave up, cos it appeared they didn't want to listen. Funny thing was, there was another almost fundy christian working with us ('fundy' in the sense of very very religious, rather than just a believer), and she and I could have some really good serious debates, and questionings. That sort of connection she would see where I was coming from (although, as you said below) not quite the same.. but that was fair. I was only looking at significances - not equating.

(Excepting Mohammad in Islamic traditions, AFAIK).

Please explain......

[DesignFox]

I suspect that we draw people to us who share similar attitudes and outlooks.

That could be, too.

I tend to be very open and accepting of other people, so I guess I just draw in other people who share the same attitudes.

And, I do try not to hurt the feelings of others. If a person brings something to my attention in a non-confrontational manner, I certainly try to avoid causing them distress. Usually, we can come to a compromise.

If some fanatic gets all in my face with the "I'm so persecuted" "you can't do this because of ____" line, I roll my eyes at them.

I like to understand as much as I can about other people, but I would expect that same courtesy from the other side of the fence.

It's like I said about people being overly sensitive, which Sylvia elaborated upon (and that is what I was intending to say...)

We need to communicate and understand each other, rather than getting up in arms right away. (and, IMO, a lot of what people get up in arms about- religiously speaking- is stupid shit).

[Sylvia727]

True, but in this age, and with all the media around, witchcraft is at least been seen as a religion now, rather than merely a bunch of loons (or devil-worshipers).

It is seen as a religion, but most people don't make the connection. Wiccan =/= magical hag, in other words.

Oh - I just had a thought.. years ago, I was trying to talk about the significance of various beliefs to non-followers, and I said that Buddha was to Buddhists as JC was to Xtians. The Xtians I was 'explaining' this to took masses of offence, cos JC is the son of God, and Buddha was just a man.

What would be your thoughts on what I was trying to explain??

You should have elaborated further and the Xians should have shut up and let you. In my experience, it usually takes half an hour before an innocent, well-intentioned slight can be resolved. One person starts out saying what they meant, the other says what they heard, the first person clarifies, the second person says why s/he found this hurtful, the first person reassures the second that s/he would never want to be hurtful, and then they dance around for another ten minutes reassuring each other that they're still friends. Or maybe that's just my friends. But it works, I assure you.

From what I understand of Buddhism, Buddha was just the first guy to 'awaken'. He's not anyone particularly special; he did it right and his advice might be worth listening to. Whereas Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and God himself, and he should be worshipped and obeyed. It might be more apt to say that Buddha is like a prophet of Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions, in that his advice will help immensely but isn't the be-all and end-all. (Excepting Mohammad in Islamic traditions, AFAIK).

[Slytovhand]

I guess I'm just in sheltered Slyt. I've always lived in a fairly tolerant and diverse state, and I just don't "see" the evils people around me see.

I guess it's because I'm so tolerant of people overall. I have my prejudices...but I keep them in check and try to judge people on their own merit. I don't really get offended easily and sort of live and let live.

Maybe I just don't see what all the hoo-pla is when people get upset over certain things...because I'm a bit harder to upset? And I'm not a part of any group or religion that has traditionally (at least in recent history) been oppressed.

(well, except that I'm female, but I like to think we've worked out most of those issues, at least in my country)

*shrug*

That said- I know better than to hang up pictures of "witches" around Pagan people...I don't go knocking on my Christian friend's door dressed as Jesus...and I don't do things to insult my Jewish friends....I use my sense.

I DO think people are getting better overall. The witch issue has been addressed, and I do see changes being made. We have "happy holidays" now instead of just saying Merry Christmas. The malls get decorated for multiple holidays instead of just one. And people are granted days off based on their religious background (I had a Wiccan manager who needed certain days off for the solstice, etc.)

Again, maybe that's just been my experience. But I see things changing. It won't happen overnight. But it is happenening.

I don't understand the militant, "OMG you CAN'T do THAT! I'm SO OFFENDED!" attitude...

Overall, I think a lot more people need to be a lot less sensitive.

I suspect that we draw people to us who share similar attitudes and outlooks. At the very least, if we meet people who have vastly different attitudes, then we tend not to go out of our way to hang around them. We here at CS tend to be more...openminded and respectful of others...perhaps cos we know what it's like to be on the receiving end.

Cool on that manager!!! I've introduced a manager to the coven that (last I heard) she later joined I don't recall taking time off for it though.

[Slytovhand]

Witchcraft and magic are still heavy themes in fantasy. Look at the Harry Potter books if you want an idea of how modern society perceives witches. If 'witch' became strictly a religious term, I myself would have to throw away maybe a third of my novels.

This just adds to the perception of Halloween symbols. People put up the stereotypical 'witch' image because they associate it with fantastical stories and myths, not modern day religions. I'm not saying it's not offensive, merely that people don't know it's offensive. It's pointless to blame them for their ignorance. Raise awareness, because they don't understand why you're offended, and will only get defensive if confronted.

True, but in this age, and with all the media around, witchcraft is at least been seen as a religion now, rather than merely a bunch of loons (or devil-worshipers). Yeah - educate is good - when people choose to listen. Some do, some don't. OH - as for HP, I do recall all the hoo-ha about the fundies wanting the books all banned....<sigh> some people....

Why do I have to mention someone else's god in order to worship mine? What's wrong with saying "The chocolate bunnies and eggs represent renewal and rebirth"? I'm aware of the origins of my religion, as many others are, but that should hardly be a requirement. I don't think it makes me inconsiderate if I fail to mention details about the origins of certain traditions. I don't have to be educated about the history of my religion to be a good ____ist or a good citizen or a good neighbor.



What are Christians doing with all that stuff? Besides celebrating family, love, the birth of hope of salvation, togetherness, and the corporate dollar? I don't understand your question. Are you asking for a detailed justification of each Xian tradition?

No - not a requirement, nor a justification. I was just putting that in because you mentioned not getting the jolly man in reference to christmas - which neither of us gets.... so it was rhetorical.

I don't think religion should be mocked at any point. It is a sacred and personal part of many or most people. But good-natured and friendly-intended ribbing could be okay no matter what religious persuasion the ribber was of.

Damn..I forgot what that was in reference to.... other than maybe cos Xtians are doing large amounts of pagan worship (bunnies and eggs stuff).

Yup. The Gay-Straight-Alliance on my university put up posters promoting homo/het equality, and all 500 were torn down with 2 hours. Worse, campus security and university administration refused to do more than a token investigation, despite an attorney's testimony that this was a hate crime and could get prison time for the offenders. Worse still, the school newspaper published an editorial which essentially said, "get over it, faggots."

Intolerance: still alive and kicking.

Holy Crap!

That could well be my problem. I'm not seeing the extent of the damage because I'm not experiencing it. I think I'm seeing most of it, but without walking a mile in a pagan's shoes, I'll never know.

I usually wear sneakers.. there more comfy

I think people need to be more sensitive to others' perspectives and to others' motives. As the offending party, I need to understand where the other person is coming from and make reasonable accomodations for them. And as the offended party, I need to understand why the offender is doing whatever, and make reasonable accomodations for them.

I think the primary issue is communication. Individual groups of people need to work out what is acceptable for them. For example, I can fulfill my magical fantasies by dressing up as a sorceress, but until you tell my witch costume is offensive to you *in a polite and nonhostile manner*, I won't know to make the switch.

Words of Wisdom

Oh - I just had a thought.. years ago, I was trying to talk about the significance of various beliefs to non-followers, and I said that Buddha was to Buddhists as JC was to Xtians. The Xtians I was 'explaining' this to took masses of offence, cos JC is the son of God, and Buddha was just a man.

What would be your thoughts on what I was trying to explain??

[Sylvia727]

If they're putting up witches everywhere, surely it denotes that it is a 'religious' festival?

Witchcraft and magic are still heavy themes in fantasy. Look at the Harry Potter books if you want an idea of how modern society perceives witches. If 'witch' became strictly a religious term, I myself would have to throw away maybe a third of my novels.

This just adds to the perception of Halloween symbols. People put up the stereotypical 'witch' image because they associate it with fantastical stories and myths, not modern day religions. I'm not saying it's not offensive, merely that people don't know it's offensive. It's pointless to blame them for their ignorance. Raise awareness, because they don't understand why you're offended, and will only get defensive if confronted.

And explain where all those things come from that don't otherwise make sense, but still respect where they came from. ie - "here's your chocolate bunny and egg, in memory of the spirit of Spring and the Goddess Eostre, and remember how that represents renewal and rebirth - when you go to church to celebrate your lords resurrection."

Why do I have to mention someone else's god in order to worship mine? What's wrong with saying "The chocolate bunnies and eggs represent renewal and rebirth"? I'm aware of the origins of my religion, as many others are, but that should hardly be a requirement. I don't think it makes me inconsiderate if I fail to mention details about the origins of certain traditions. I don't have to be educated about the history of my religion to be a good ____ist or a good citizen or a good neighbor.

Or, to get back to Sylvia's point on the other page, the jolly man in red handing out presents under the tree are all pagan motifs, so in one sense there isn't a mockery going on (other than towards the traditional pagans...). But it does confuse the heck out of me what christians are doing with all that stuff. The gift-giving I can understand (gold, frankincense and myrrh), but the rest of it??

What are Christians doing with all that stuff? Besides celebrating family, love, the birth of hope of salvation, togetherness, and the corporate dollar? I don't understand your question. Are you asking for a detailed justification of each Xian tradition?

Is it ok to mock your own religion??

I don't think religion should be mocked at any point. It is a sacred and personal part of many or most people. But good-natured and friendly-intended ribbing could be okay no matter what religious persuasion the ribber was of.

Oh - DesignFox...
Ah...if only that were true...<sigh> Trust me, many still are....I'm in a forum called UniPagan, and I've heard of the advertising materials and posters for a UniPagan group at (strangely) the unis, but those posters get grafittied or ripped apart or down. And this in an arena of 'higher education' where one might expect a higher level of tolerance.

Yup. The Gay-Straight-Alliance on my university put up posters promoting homo/het equality, and all 500 were torn down with 2 hours. Worse, campus security and university administration refused to do more than a token investigation, despite an attorney's testimony that this was a hate crime and could get prison time for the offenders. Worse still, the school newspaper published an editorial which essentially said, "get over it, faggots."

Intolerance: still alive and kicking.

Maybe I just don't see what all the hoo-pla is when people get upset over certain things...because I'm a bit harder to upset? And I'm not a part of any group or religion that has traditionally (at least in recent history) been oppressed.

That could well be my problem. I'm not seeing the extent of the damage because I'm not experiencing it. I think I'm seeing most of it, but without walking a mile in a pagan's shoes, I'll never know.

Overall, I think a lot more people need to be a lot less sensitive.

I think people need to be more sensitive to others' perspectives and to others' motives. As the offending party, I need to understand where the other person is coming from and make reasonable accomodations for them. And as the offended party, I need to understand why the offender is doing whatever, and make reasonable accomodations for them.

I think the primary issue is communication. Individual groups of people need to work out what is acceptable for them. For example, I can fulfill my magical fantasies by dressing up as a sorceress, but until you tell my witch costume is offensive to you *in a polite and nonhostile manner*, I won't know to make the switch.

[DesignFox]

I guess I'm just in sheltered Slyt. I've always lived in a fairly tolerant and diverse state, and I just don't "see" the evils people around me see.

I guess it's because I'm so tolerant of people overall. I have my prejudices...but I keep them in check and try to judge people on their own merit. I don't really get offended easily and sort of live and let live.

Maybe I just don't see what all the hoo-pla is when people get upset over certain things...because I'm a bit harder to upset? And I'm not a part of any group or religion that has traditionally (at least in recent history) been oppressed.

(well, except that I'm female, but I like to think we've worked out most of those issues, at least in my country)

*shrug*

That said- I know better than to hang up pictures of "witches" around Pagan people...I don't go knocking on my Christian friend's door dressed as Jesus...and I don't do things to insult my Jewish friends....I use my sense.

I DO think people are getting better overall. The witch issue has been addressed, and I do see changes being made. We have "happy holidays" now instead of just saying Merry Christmas. The malls get decorated for multiple holidays instead of just one. And people are granted days off based on their religious background (I had a Wiccan manager who needed certain days off for the solstice, etc.)

Again, maybe that's just been my experience. But I see things changing. It won't happen overnight. But it is happenening.

I don't understand the militant, "OMG you CAN'T do THAT! I'm SO OFFENDED!" attitude...

Overall, I think a lot more people need to be a lot less sensitive.

[Slytovhand]

Thanks Radioclerk, that sort of helps to sum things up a bit for me as well, certainly as it pertains to that specific 'holiday'.

If they're putting up witches everywhere, surely it denotes that it is a 'religious' festival? (well - no - probably not....) And one that isn't actually shared by those who are doing the celebrating - thus it's not a 'secular' one at all. Secular is Australia Day (which has it's issues down here...), Labour Day, Mother's and Father's Day etc...Your Thanksgiving would fit in nicely.

Yes - I do think society needs more 'secular' celebrations. Either that, or we need to fully embrace the religious ones more wholistically. And explain where all those things come from that don't otherwise make sense, but still respect where they came from. ie - "here's your chocolate bunny and egg, in memory of the spirit of Spring and the Goddess Eostre, and remember how that represents renewal and rebirth - when you go to church to celebrate your lords resurrection." Or, to get back to Sylvia's point on the other page, the jolly man in red handing out presents under the tree are all pagan motifs, so in one sense there isn't a mockery going on (other than towards the traditional pagans...). But it does confuse the heck out of me what christians are doing with all that stuff. The gift-giving I can understand (gold, frankincense and myrrh), but the rest of it?? Is it ok to mock your own religion??

Oh - DesignFox...

So...I don't think people are that ignorant, anymore. Things are changing. People are realizing that a "witch" isn't a bad person.

Ah...if only that were true...<sigh> Trust me, many still are....I'm in a forum called UniPagan, and I've heard of the advertising materials and posters for a UniPagan group at (strangely) the unis, but those posters get grafittied or ripped apart or down. And this in an arena of 'higher education' where one might expect a higher level of tolerance.

On that line, most of the witches I know you wouldn't pick in a crowd (which makes it a bit difficult when you're looking out for them)

[DesignFox]

I think society is changing the view of the witch. More and more you have "pretty" witch costumes and decorations to combat the "ugly" witch pictures and costumes.

I always think of the Wizard of Oz and just think of it as the difference between a "good" witch and a "bad" witch.

And there was an episode of Bewitched where Samantha had a discussion with her husband over the "ugly" witch portrayal. (and how old is that show?)

So...I don't think people are that ignorant, anymore. Things are changing. People are realizing that a "witch" isn't a bad person.

EDIT: and now I think the word witch sounds funny because I've used it too many times in one post...

[Sylvia727]

There is at least one Halloween "symbol" I take insane offense to, which was always intended as a mockery.

The pointy-hat, green skinned, wart covered witch on the broom.

I can't argue with that at all. It's as much a stereotype as an offensive racial image. The only (very shaky) defense those people can claim is ignorance. Most people don't associate the Puritan "congress with the beast" women with the New Age hippy skyclad Wiccans, and they don't associate either with their next door neighbor.

they get butt-hurt whenever anyone makes references to their origins, or tries to describe them in any other way.

I just have to laugh at that. I was raised Christian, but any text one picks up on the origins of Christianity or Christian traditions will cover at the very least 3-5 non-Christian items that predate Christianity. In other words, there's no excuse for ignorance except sheer naivete.

There is a reason I stop reading the opinion section of the paper during November and December. Every time I hear a "war on Christmas" description, I want to smack someone.

Some of these articules manage to make their points in a tasteful way, decrying how instead of multicultural we've become noncultural. Others are just hateful bigots with nothing better to whine about. And yeah, I want to smack some of them too.