College Rants

[Greenday]

Anyway, What I hate about college is the zillion electives you need to take in order to graduate, even if the class has NOTHING to do with your major. I know so many people who are my sibling's age (and a few my own) who've had to go 5 or 6 years JUST to get all their credits. That time could have been cut back if A) one didn't have to take uncessary classes and B) you could actually test out of some courses by demonstrating sufficient knowledge.


One thing about the school I went to fo a year was the dorm bulding I was in had no kitchens. So if you were studying, and hungry after the cafe closed at 8 pm, TOUGH. Ramen Noodles and Easy Mac for you. I'm sorry, I like the ability to be able to actually COOK something when I want to eat some good food. The other dorms? Oh, they got their kitchens. Way to be fair.

I agree with that. Oh, it's supposed to make us well rounded. That's cool, but I can get by just fine without knowing the philosophies of people from a few thousand years, basic writing (learned that awhile ago), history (learned more history than an intro class can teach me), politics of diversity, sociology, etc. etc. I'm a Forensics major. Give me chemistry, biology, physics, criminal justice. Not stuff that are completely unrelated to what I'll eventually do.

[Cats]

I had to deal with that in high school - almost didn't graduate because I had missed more than the allotted days. Their reasoning was "we don't feel you can receive all the knowledge from this course if you're not here...." Oh yeah? This B+ says I can and did.

This. My High School had "administrative failure" for those who missed 6 or more unexcused days per semester. Of course, if you had the old excuse note from the parents, this didn't apply to you, so thankfully it only really punished either the sucky parents or the kids who skipped a lot.

For those who said if we're so smart, to test out of the class, you have a point. HOWEVER, for that to actually WORK, that needs to be available as an OPTION. With the expection of a AP couse in high school counting as college credit if you score well on the exam, I have yet to see this. I sure would have loved such a program in high school (seriously, I needed a credit and a half in my senior year of high school required for grauation, and they were the senior only classes [english and gym].



Anyway, What I hate about college is the zillion electives you need to take in order to graduate, even if the class has NOTHING to do with your major. I know so many people who are my sibling's age (and a few my own) who've had to go 5 or 6 years JUST to get all their credits. That time could have been cut back if A) one didn't have to take uncessary classes and B) you could actually test out of some courses by demonstrating sufficient knowledge.


One thing about the school I went to fo a year was the dorm bulding I was in had no kitchens. So if you were studying, and hungry after the cafe closed at 8 pm, TOUGH. Ramen Noodles and Easy Mac for you. I'm sorry, I like the ability to be able to actually COOK something when I want to eat some good food. The other dorms? Oh, they got their kitchens. Way to be fair.

[DrFaroohk]

Attendance shouldn't matter for shit because its not a day-to-day thing they judge you on - its for the semester. If you get a 3.5 grade, why should it matter if you came to class every day, every other day, or never? It's like certain jobs where they don't care about what you do day to day - I know a guy who processed loans or something for a bank. As long as he did like a million dollars a month, they didn't care if he worked 1 day a week or 7.

I had to deal with that in high school - almost didn't graduate because I had missed more than the allotted days. Their reasoning was "we don't feel you can receive all the knowledge from this course if you're not here...." Oh yeah? This B+ says I can and did.

[AdminAssistant]

I'm assuming you attend a smallish school.

My undergrad was relatively small. That and my major (theatre, acting) pretty much necessitated being in class (can't learn that kind of stuff out of books). I suppose that's where my ethic of going to class came in. If our professors found out we were regularly skipping classes, even in classes outside our major, they'd chew us out for it. Then ban us from participating in shows, because obviously we were too busy.

The school I'm at now is freakin' huge. (Total enrollment is 30,000). I TA for two different classes. Intro - we don't take attendance for lecture but we do for discussion sections. Enrollment - 170-ish. Theatre History - I take attendance. Enrollment - 59.

[Boozy]

I don't know a single professor who does not include either participation or attendance into the grading rubric.

I'm assuming you attend a smallish school.

There were 500 students in many of my first-year lectures, and over 200 in most of my second-year courses. Grading for participation, or even taking attendance, would not have been feasible.

Participation was a factor in my fourth-year seminars, since our class sizes were closer to 30 students by that time. And that's how seminars operate.

I didn't go to class if a) no one would notice my absence, and b) I didn't feel that it was the best academic use of that three-hour block of time. I never once felt bad about it, and I did very well in school.

[HYHYBT]

As I remember it, the strictness of the attendance policy was inversely proportional to the necessity (otherwise) of showing up regularly, and the biggest tardiness problems weren't from not getting up/arriving on campus on time, but from having a class the period before that either ran slightly over or was too far from the next one. Someone said late students should sit in the back? I'd think it ought to be whichever empty seat is nearest the door... the only class I ever had with anything like that tardiness policy was also the largest at 400+; he started lecturing five (I think) minutes after the official start time, again because of the difficulty in crossing campus, and anyone after that sat in the wings out of sight.

I suspect textbooks would be cheaper if there were some incentive to the professors to use existing ones rather than, whenever possible, writing their own with nearly the same content.

[Greenday]

I don't know a single professor who does not include either participation or attendance into the grading rubric. I'm sure, however, there are those who don't. In that case...I don't know. I'd go to class anyway, but that's the kind of person I am.

I know a few. Namely every chem professor I've had.

1. None of them used powerpoints. Everything was on the chalkboards.
2. "I don't care if you show up or not. If you don't show up, you will fail and that isn't my fault."

Probably one of my favorite quotes of all time from a teacher. My stats teacher didn't require attendance either. He told us on the first day if we only showed up for tests, quizzes and handed in the homework, that was fine. The first 2/3 of class was tests. Last 1/3 was review. I got nothing lower than a 95 on the first three tests, got A's on every homework and quiz, and went to every class at that point. I told him after the third test that I really liked the class and that I was good and he said since I did so well, I could probably just skip the rest of the lectures with my grades and work on my other classes. So I did. I got an A.

[AdminAssistant]

Well what if attendance is not part of the marking scheme?

I don't know a single professor who does not include either participation or attendance into the grading rubric. I'm sure, however, there are those who don't. In that case...I don't know. I'd go to class anyway, but that's the kind of person I am.

[gremcint]

Well what if attendance is not part of the marking scheme?

Also I didn't say I was skipping every class just that I don't need your permission to stay home one day.

However I do agree that if you never showed up then it's your fault when you fail the assignments.

[AdminAssistant]

Now as for being late. this is not a job, there is a major difference between this and a job. I paid for this time not the other way around and it is my choice whether or not to use it and this applies to attendance.

And it's my choice as a teacher to deduct points from your grades based on attendance and lateness. Part of the contract that is devised between teacher and student is that the student will actually be in the classroom. If you're not going to bother coming to class, don't bother with school, in my opinion.

[gremcint]

In regards to textbooks, Amazon, get your booklist and then go to amazon. I saved over a hundred dollars one year thanks to amazon.

Now as for being late. this is not a job, there is a major difference between this and a job. I paid for this time not the other way around and it is my choice whether or not to use it and this applies to attendance. Keep in mind you reap what you sow if you skip all the time. If I show up late and walk into the room and quietly sit down and start taking notes, I am not disrupting the class for anymore than 3 seconds. If the teacher stopped or everyone looked at me then they are the one who decided to disrupt the class. If the teacher decides to berate the student for being late (which I have seen) then the teacher is disrupting the class and wasting everyone else's time.

I don't mind people being late, sometimes they can't help it. Now people being disruptive on the other hand. There was this student named Frank, he would play games on his laptop and the teacher would tell him to put it away each time, she even tried to take it one time (that's another topic). One day he came in and took out a portable harddrive and was going to assemble it during the lecture (basically this guy was an asshole and was disrupting class just for the heck of it) I went off on him and told him he shouldn't even come to class if all he was going to do is waste our time and money. afterwards I went to apologize to the teacher and let her know I didn't mean any disrespect to her, her response was: "Don't apologize I was cheering you on" and the other teacher for the class said something similar.

[AdminAssistant]

One of my professors has had quite a few books published, and she's said that her 'profit' on the books she's written isn't usually enough to cover the costs of doing the research. However, publications tend to = tenure, so there is some financial benefit.

[BroomJockey]

Textbook prices is the publishers.

Some publishers. But to say it's all the publishers is narrow-minded at best, and delusional at worst. The biggest issue is textbook buyback.

Right, here's academic publishing 101, Canadian-style. I'm going to assume the basic facts and figures are similar for US academic publishing, though on a larger scale.

The lifecycle of a textbook is a teacher does a lot of work. On their own time. Once they've got the basics of the manuscript hammered out, they bring it to us. We send it out for review by at least 2 subject matter experts, the author has to make any revisions suggested, it's sent out again, if it takes more revisions, it can keep bouncing back and forth for a while. Keep in mind that at no point has the author been paid yet.

After it's finally been hammered out like that, it goes to a committee that decides whether or not it'll be published. If it's accepted, then it goes to a copy editor, bounces around there for a month or two, goes to design for a month, then the proofreader. Btw, author's still not seen a dime, and it could be a year from first submission.

After the design and proofreading, it'll go to the printer, when it can finally go to distribution.

In addition to taking well over a year from submission to being available, the production costs are a damned sight higher than you'd expect.

We use mostly freelancers, so the costs will be lower in a place large enough to do it all in-house, but not by much.

Author gets 10% off the cover price, automatically, as royalties. Some demand more, or advances.
Books are sold to bookstores/retail outlets at 40% discount of the cover price. That leaves 50% to cover the following expenses:

Printing will cost anywhere from $30-50k for 1,000 copies. More for hardcover, lots of colour, larger sizes, etc. Highest I can recall seeing is about $100/copy for a 5 volume hardcover set.
Readers get an honorarium of $125 each.
Copyeditors get about $2k for a book of 300 pages, unless there's excessive technical jargon, or other circumstances.
Designers get $3k or so.
Proofreaders about $1k.
If anything needs to be redrawn for clarity or size, that can be exorbitant, I've seen cartographer's bills for $4k for 3 maps.
Scanning images not in digital format can cost about $20/image, with a bulk discount.
Normal operating costs for the publisher. Rent, salaries, office supplies, paying the distributor, etc etc.
None of this includes possible unique extra expenses that can crop up on different projects.

The first print run 99% of the time covers costs, if it completely sells out. Second printings are where profits come from. However, if a bookstore buys back textbooks and sells them for slightly cheaper, it undercuts the primary sales, meaning it takes longer for publishers to get their investment back, and may not get to a second printing. If that happens, they need to increase the price of the first print-run, and make their profit on the first run. The other option is frequent new editions to make secondary sales more difficult. Unfortunately, either tends to move people who were on the fence to purchase used texts, where the bookstore's making near pure-profit, and the publishers get nothing.

So if you really wanna blame high textbook prices on anything, blame it on textbook buyback. It's a ripoff for students, and it's damaging to publishers. If you wanna blame it on a second something, then on authors who can't write concisely, driving up every single cost (more to copy edit, design, proofread, and print). Third is publishers who can't reign in authors, or get greedy.

*pant, sigh, wheeze* /ranty threadjack over Sorry.

[Greenday]

Once again, if you know the material already, save yourself money and test out of the class.

Not sure how many semesters you've been in college, but a lot of late people that have come into my classes tend to never be a minor disruption. Especially this semester where we don't always have enough chairs because the school allowed more people in the class than seats. So then we have to stop class and find the person a seat which takes some decent time.

Textbook prices is the publishers. A couple of my teachers write the books we use. They try to make them as short and concise as possible as the publishers jack up the price to the school for anything fancy. My philosophy teacher made his book so short and concise with no pics or anything that it barely cost me any money. What a great guy.

[Rageaholic]

Broom already covered my feelings on citing references so I get to skip that one.

Mandatory attendance - First off, this is to deal with the majority of people who skip classes. Most people that skip classes do poorly, then whine and bitch to heads of departments until something is done about it (unless they are talking to the head of my department, in which case he will literally laugh at you then tell you to get the hell out of his office). It also gives the teacher an excuse to keep track of who goes to class so when someone who does skip complains about how hard the class was, the teacher can just say that they skipped the class, here's my proof. Plus, if you aren't going to show up to class, and everyone takes that attitude, why should the teacher? It's why I hate it when teachers post all the slides on blackboard. If you can learn it so easily, just test out of the class.

Lateness usually/almost always involves disrupting the class. You open the door, you make noise, and everyone turns around to see who it is. And more than half the time, the late person doesn't have the common courtesy to take the farthest available spot in the back of the room, they just walk in front of the entire class to get that seat in the front. It's very rude. Either take a later class or wake up earlier. After your first semester, you get to pick your classes so if you pick a class that you will be late for and get locked out...not the teacher's fault.

Textbook prices - Outrageous, I agree. That's the publisher's fault. Why some of my book cost nearly $200 is beyond me. What pisses me off even more is when you go try to sell a book back that cost $150 new at the bookstore, and you barely used it and never wrote in it, they will buy it back for MAYBE $20 if you are really lucky.

As for the mandatory attendance, well, it's not as bad as in school where children can get detention (for being even a second late), but why should it affect their grade? If I can do just as good by reading the textbook and following the syllibus, than I shouldn't be marked down because I don't want to sit through two hours of stuff I already learned. Sure, keeping track of attendance is a good idea so if a student has a legitiment reason for not getting a good grade, he can see the teacher, but being graded on it is not. Usually, missing in class assignments is enough of a reason not to miss class.

And I don't see late students being disruptive at all. So they cause a distraction for a few seconds? Should they really be locked out just because their entrance might be a minor distraction? I would argue that students who show up an hour late shouldn't bother coming to class. I mean, they probably already missed most of class, but if I'm 5 minutes late, I can easily catch up on my own. I think professors who lock the doors on late students over that minor distraction are being obsessive. As long as the student doesn't expect the teacher to go over what he misses, what harm is there in letting him in?

And yeah, the textbook prices are absurd, but I think the school bookstore could be to blame for that.