Westboro Church Group.

[Spaniard]

XXDarrienX posted a link to Fred Phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps), the leader of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Sadly, these people are real. In my opinion, they are the very definition of what religion isn't. I'm not religious, but I'm pretty sure that, if I did believe in a God/dess/Buddha etc, that he wouldn't, according to most religious views (or so I think, anyway) want people spreading such vile hate in his name.

This "Church", as it stands, monitored by the Anti-Defamation League, and classed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Their 'mission' is summed up here: (Taken from the wikipedia article - Westboro Baptist Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church))

"The Church bases its work around the belief expressed by its best known slogan and the address of its primary website, "God hates fags", and expresses the opinion, based on its Biblical eisegesis, that nearly every tragedy in the world is linked to homosexuality – specifically society's increasing tolerance and acceptance of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. It maintains that God hates homosexuals above all other kinds of "sinners"[6] and that homosexuality should be a capital crime."

Not only that, but they seriously put hate on other religions.


" Whatever righteous cause the Jewish victims of the 1930s-40s Nazi Holocaust had... has been drowned in sodomite semen. American taxpayers are financing this unholy monument to Jewish mendacity and greed and to filthy fag lust. Homosexuals and Jews dominated Nazi Germany...The Jews now wander the earth despised, smitten with moral and spiritual blindness by a divine judicial stroke...And God has smitten Jews with a certain unique madness...Jews, thus perverted, out of all proportion to their numbers energize the militant sodomite agenda...Jews are the real Nazis."

"In His retaliatory rage God is killing Americans with Muslim IEDs: "Saying Touch not my anointed, and do my prophets no harm." 1 Chron 16:22. "


"So what if our guys flushed copies of the Quran down the toilet? We hope they did. They probably did; We hope they flush more. Mohammed was a demon-possessed whoremonger and pedophile who contrived a 300-page work of Satanic fiction: The Quran! Like America's own whoremonger and pedophile wangled his own hokey Book of Mormon!"

They've even been picketing funerals of soldiers, I believe.. Though I'm not sure on that one.

[Foxglove8778]

they are picketing funerals with signs that read "Thank God for Dead Soldiers".

hypocrits.

[Boozy]

I personally can't imagine that God, if he exists, hates anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous" hate. Its always vile and wrong.

What the hell is up their obsession with gay sex, anyway? Methinks they doth protest too much, if you know what I mean...

[TheRoo]

They have picketed soldiers' funerals. Their "reasoning" behind this is that the death of American servicemen in Iraq is a result of the U.S. being tolerant of homosexuality, and God is punishing us. They have also picketed the funeral of Matthew Shepard and people who have died of AIDS. In response to this, some states have created laws limiting protests at funerals.

I have been to their website, and it is the most disturbing thing I have ever seen on the internet. They have signs saying "Thank God for AIDS" and "Thank God for 9/11". One more creepy thing about this bunch is their "church" membership. Every one of the hundred or so in the bunch is related to Phelps.

[AFPheonix]

....If Jews are militant sodomites, then what does that make Jesus, also a Jew?

Makes me wonder if Mr. Phelps got touched inappropriately by a dirty uncle or something, to have so much hate in his heart.

[Spaniard]

There's a bunch of clips out there of a reporter who goes along and stays with them for 3 weeks.

The Clip 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFbeMOp_YHY)

About the children not understanding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iKneDAFin4&mode=related&search=)

[MadMike]

Has anyone else noticed a resemblence between Fred and the evil preacher guy from Poltergiest 2? :D

[Rapscallion]

Hmmm.

I don't agree with Phelps and his ilk's continued existence, and I rather suspect his group will die out within twenty years of his death, but I'm baffled by the way posters are saying a religion should be about happy things.

Thuggee, for example, was most definitely not fluffy bunnies and light - the thuggee revered Kali and one of their rituals was to murder travellers.

Religion is not just about doing good in the world, though it could cheerfully be argued that it should. If you examine the texts of most religions, you'll find some nasty elements - the old testament has quite a supply of these, as does the koran.

Religion is about doing as you believe, and in that Phelps et al are as religious as possible. That they're a set of wankers is evident, but there's no way you can tell me they're not religious.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

Obviously the Phelps group is religious. They practically define religious fervour.

My personal belief system holds that God is not vengeful or judgemental. That is all I was trying to express. I do not define religion as only "good" things. I define it as a set of beliefs based on faith apart from evidence. The Westboro Church meets that definition.

[Teysa]

This is what I believe. Whether homosexuality is a sin or not, is between God and the homosexual. (I've seen convincing arguments on both sides of the issue, so I'll just leave that one up to God. He knows more than I do anyways.) Whether it is or isn't though, being hateful and spiteful towards homosexuals is certainly sinful. Celebrating someone getting a horrible disease because of a 'sin' is just wrong on so many levels. Rejoicing in the deaths of people because you think they're all sinners is also wrong.

As a Christian, I believe we should help those who are less fortunate or who have fallen on hard times, not condemn them or make them feel even worse. Yes, sometimes those hard times are the person's own fault, but every one of us has gone through difficult times of our own making. It's times like those that we need kindness and compassion more than ever.

[AFPheonix]

While numerous religions are and have been violent, Christianity, if we follow Christ's example, is a religion of love for each other, even as others hate us.

Yes, even a religion of love can be twisted and used for evil, and this one has been many times and continues to be used wrongly, but at it's heart it is a religion of forgiveness, kindness, thoughtfulness, and love.

[Spaniard]

Slightly off topic.

I've never understood that myself. Christianity, at it's heart, is meant to be about following Jesus' example of treating everyone, regardless of what they are, as equal, essentially.

I'm not religious, but I personally do my best to do that, because it's just the right thing to do. Sometimes I fail, but I do my hardest.

Yet some people, those ones being the extreme in religious fervour of a bad kind, seem to try and force their way on others not of their 'correct' persuasion.

What does one's religious belief matter, if the person is a good person?

[rahmota]

Missed responding to this earlier today.

Phelps and co are definately the worst of the worst when it comes to the religious intolerant freaks.

And yes most unfortunately they picket soldier's funerals. Fortunately there has been some counter to that. When I worked at the dealership I worked around bikers and according to them the Bortherhood, Hell's Angels and the Iron Horsemen all agreed to be at soldier's funerals to stand witness against Phelps and pay their respects to the soldiers. I don't know if that was true for sure but I am not inclined to disbelieve it.

I'll agree that as long as a person does more good in general than harm then what does it matter who they sleep with or which divine being they worship if any at all.

[Rapscallion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_guard for the anti-Phelps movement.

Makes me think there's some chance for humanity.

Rapscallion

[Kara_CS]

Living in Kansas, I've seen Phelps and his followers in action (the psychos are based in Topeka). Try to imagine my mother's reaction when we went to Topeka when I was 7 years old and, seeing them standing around waving their signs and screaming at passing cars, I asked her "God is love. Why do they say he hates people?"

His entire congregation is made up of his family. They're not even really a church. No one is allowed to go to Westboro Baptist Church unless he says they can. While it's true what Rap said that religion isn't all about peace and love, the point of Christianity is not to spread hate. While the Bible says that God despises sin, he does not hate people themselves. It is also not our place to pass condemnation on others (aside from the courts). That is reserved for God alone. And when the time comes for Phelps, I think he's in for a very big surprise when he stands before God for his Judgement.

The Patriot Guard deserves God's blessing. Most of them ride their bikes through the area I live in on Sundays (there's a large group of Motorcycles for Christ around here and they go to different small towns for lunch every Sunday so you can see and hear them riding through town and covering the highways). My daddy was almost killed in Iraq 2 years ago in a mortar attack and there would have been serious trouble if he had died and Phelps showed up at his funeral. I have redneck in my blood and my relatives would have beaten the WBC people with their own picket signs. Free speech shouldn't be able to protect them from nearly all the obscene things I've seen them display and yell over the years, let alone disrespecting the dead.

[AFPheonix]

I'll agree that as long as a person does more good in general than harm then what does it matter who they sleep with or which divine being they worship if any at all.

Bingo. In my opinion, world religions are simply each culture's response to that which they could not understand about the world around them, and to provide a social framework in order to create a cohesive, workable living arrangement for all involved.

Something that powerful and integral to a society is just ripe to be corrupted and used for evil, no matter how benevolent it was meant to be in the first place.

[rahmota]

Raps: Thanks for the confirm on that and the info. I figured the guys wherent BSing on something that serious. That is one thing that I noticed about bikers it doesnt matter what colors you wear you just dont disrespect someone who died in the service of their country.

AFP: Exactly. Too bad too many dont understand the big picture of this sort of thing.

[protege]

Just recently, those Westboro freaks) were supposed to come here to protest. Needless to say, they didn't. Apparently, they had the balls to spew their filth about a local vet over the 'net...but as soon as the locals, including several motorcycle clubs, found out, Phelps and Co. didn't have the balls to show up.

[FormerCallingCardRep]

This is the same group that protested the funnerals for the miners killed at the Sago Mine in West Virginia and the funnerals for the Amish girls that were killed in Pennsylvania

[AFPheonix]

Jesus. There's a special place in hell for people who would think it's ok to protest a funeral for an AMISH child.

[Gayle]

Hmm, because the Amish are a very non-violent, peaceful people who live together in harmony. But, peace-loving men are unnatural, so they must be gay, because REAL men like war and violence.


Wait a second... then how did the Amish have children? Ouch, I just hurt my brain.

I saw a whole news thing about these freaks, (Fred Phelps and co, not the Amish) and the woman being interviewed had about as many screws loose as she could have and not droll on herself. I know she said why they were protesting the funeral of a young man who gave his life so that she could enjoy the freedom to protest his funeral, but I can't even remember what they were. All I know is that when Fred Phelps dies, I hope each and every one of the families they have hurt give him a very special going away present.

[Rubystars]

If I recall correctly, Westboro is mainly made up of family members, so it's not really attracting a lot of outside followers.

[Jadedcarguy]

They just got nailed with a nearly $11M judgment for picketing a funeral. I'm sure they'll never pay a dime, but it makes me grin to know they got pwned. :)

[blas87]

Me thinks they won't be around much longer. One of these days, they are going to show up at the wrong funeral. Especially if they show up at one around here. One of these days they are going to piss off the wrong grieving family. I'm sure there's someone out there who would give their freedom to make sure these idiots never hurt another family again.

[rahmota]

One of these days they are going to piss off the wrong grieving family. I'm sure there's someone out there who would give their freedom to make sure these idiots never hurt another family again.

To be perfectly honest this has happened already. There have been a few individual attempts against either their compound or phelps himself. Each time they used the court system to attack and punish that person.

So actually a civil judgement is more effective. At least not without a concentrated military-like effort against the compound and group.

This is not to say that I am surprised there hasnt been more violence involved since they moved into protesting at funerals. Take people who are already emotionally distraught, throw in some agitating jerkwads, and mix a few wild cards in with the biker group and you have a formula for an interesting event if someone goes too far with one thign or another.

[Jadedcarguy]

Do a youtube search for the phelps. Every vid I have seen of these assholes has them protesting surrounded by police. You would have to ram a car in there or use a sniper to take one of them out. They aren't stupid, but most zealots aren't. :(

[blas87]

Why are the police protecting these people as they protest at funerals?

I'd rather have some officers standing outside the church making sure those idiots didn't get inside or anywhere near the herse or interfere with the drive to the cemetary!

[Jadedcarguy]

Why are the police protecting these people as they protest at funerals?



That's the double-edged nature of freedom of speech.:( The Phelps and their ilk aren't doing anything illegal, as abhorrent as their actions may be. The police know if they aren't there, something will happen to the Phelps, no matter if they disagree with their stance or not, it is their job to prevent a beating or a murder if they can.

[Misanthropical]

Has anyone else noticed a resemblence between Fred and the evil preacher guy from Poltergiest 2? :D

I did notice that! I didn't think it was possible to be more fundy than Pentecostals, till I saw Fred and his church.

[DexX]

Ever get the feeling that if Jesus showed up today, he'd be labelled a fag-enabling hippie peacenik and hated by *cough* "Christians" like Phelps, Robertson, and Limbaugh?

Here's a plan... when all the Westboro hatezombies are out shouting obscenities at a five year old burying her puppy that got hit by a car, someone sneak into their compound and slip a large quantity of LSD into their water supply. :D

[Jadedcarguy]

............someone sneak into their compound and slip a large quantity of LSD into their water supply. :D

I'd rather slip a large quantity of C4 into the sub-flooring, but that's just me.:D

[Seshat]

Ever get the feeling that if Jesus showed up today, he'd be labelled a fag-enabling hippie peacenik and hated by *cough* "Christians" like Phelps, Robertson, and Limbaugh?

Oh yes. And around Easter, that's actually a semi-common theme for cartoonists.

[DexX]

I'd rather slip a large quantity of C4 into the sub-flooring, but that's just me.:D

I thought about that, but I think it would be much more fun to just f--k with their heads in a very intense way.

Come to think of it, ecstacy would be even better than LSD - the Church of Hate would suddenly be full of love. Of course, the comedown would be pretty rough...

[protege]

If I recall correctly, Westboro is mainly made up of family members, so it's not really attracting a lot of outside followers.

Speaking of family...I liked this part from Wikipedia: Phelps does not permit Westboro members to marry persons outside the church[citation needed]. As relatively few individuals have joined Westboro, there have been at least two marriages between the Phelps and Hockenbarger clans, resulting in some members having dual genealogical relationships.

Sooooo wouldn't that make them a bunch of inbred idiots?

[Sylvia727]

Not yet, they're just double cousins. A pair of sisters marrying a pair of brothers is not incest or inbreeding, but the children are closer genetically to their double cousins than they are to normal cousins.

Fun fact of the day: if two pairs of identical twins marry, their children are genetic siblings. :D

[AFPheonix]

From that article I posted last page, they're allowed to marry others who are approved by their father. In one instance it was someone who had been fostered by the clan and was brainwashed like the kids were, in others it was the Hockenbergers, a family in which the father was a lawyer/thug friend of Fred.

When the eldest dated a non-approved woman who later died, Fred literally danced around and sang in front of his heart-broken son. Seriously, he's an asshole of the highest degree. It's beyond comprehension.

[DexX]

Fred Phelps is one of the most evil people in the world today. If there is a Hell, a very special spot is being prepare just for him. He's getting on a bit, too. That bile-filled heart of his won't be able to keep pumping for too many more years. Time to repent, Fred! Do you really want to stand before your creator as an unrepentant advocate of hatred?

[Boozy]

If everyone would stop paying attention to this imbecile, he wouldn't bother picketing funerals anymore. I understand that everyone is angry, but frankly that's all he wants. He is now looking for big, attention-grabbing funerals, and shoving his ignorant face in front of them. At the cost of turning attention away from the deceased.

Why are the media and media consumers letting him get away with this?

Attention whores are a problem easily solved. Ignore them and they go away.

[DexX]

Attention whores are a problem easily solved. Ignore them and they go away.

Suing the fuckers into financial oblivion also works, with the added benefit of punishing them in addition to making them go away.

[Amethyst Hunter]

They're worse than attention whores. They're bullies. Bullies don't stop unless they're made to stop. I know this truth from hard personal experience.

Sooner or later that bunch is going to fuck with the wrong person/people, and they'll get what's coming to them big time. And I can't say as I'd feel much (if any) sympathy for 'em.

[Rapscallion]

Not sure about making them stop - they'd just play the martyr card if someone did something about them in that regard. They started it over the lawsuit that cost them dear.

Rapscallion

[protege]

They're worse than attention whores. They're bullies. Bullies don't stop unless they're made to stop. I know this truth from hard personal experience.

That's why they've been able to get away with it for so long. Nobody has the balls to put them in their place.

Some of you have heard me talk about the couple that lives next door to my parents. For those who haven't, let me tell you about these freaks of nature.

1. They use the police and borough government as their personal goon squad. I can't count the number of times we've had the cops called on us, or received certified letters (basically a complaint letter from the borough) for things like playing in *our* yard, working on cars in the driveway, or other harmless things.

2. They've left threatening notes on cars parked in front of their house. Never mind that the cops have said that they do *not* own the street, and we can park there.

3. If you walk your dog down the street, they'll either watch you or take photos. Why? They have this stupid white rock in their yard, and don't want dogs pissing on it. Even more fun, is when you're on the *other* side of the street at night, and they'll attempt to blind you with a high-powered flashlight.

4. These fools actually sent a certified letter to the people on the other side of them, about the "unsightly" and "dangerous" items in their yard. The item? A plastic kiddie pool leaning against a storage shed.

5. They actually called the cops on one of my brother's friends...after he dared to use their driveway to turn around. *Supposedly* one of his tires got onto the grass. They saw that, threatened to call the cops if he didn't reseed the entire yard. Cop came (some stupid rookie), and attempted to write him up. Didn't get very far, since we know the chief :p

I could go on, but you get the point. They get away with this stuff, mainly because too many people make excuses for them. Too many people tolerate it because "they're crazy." It's also tolerated because those fools have security cameras all over the house, along with spotlights and motion detectors.

Fuck that. They won't stop unless someone stops them. For example, they leave me alone. Why? I don't know if it's because they saw me working on one of the cars in the driveway (said car was in bits), or because I got in the husband's face one morning.

Come again? Yep, he threatened to call the cops on me. At the time, I still had my Tercel, which was burning a bit of oil. So every morning when I'd leave for work, plenty of blue smoke wafted over that way. Imagine my surprise when that nutjob came running over and bitching about how it was "killing his plants" and he was going to call the cops.

Keep in mind that I don't take shit from anyone--especially *this* assclown. I simply told him to go right ahead. But, if he did, I'd be pressing charges for harassment, trespassing (the dumbass was in my driveway), and anything else that would stick.

Can you say "pwned" boys and girls? He looked like he'd just been kicked in the nuts, and there wasn't a goddamn thing he could do about it! They might mess with everyone else, but they leave me alone. And no, I don't go out of my way to mess with them. I have better things to do.

[Saydrah]

Pwned!

I wouldn't much like a bunch of smoke wafting over my way either, but killing his plants? That's a bit much!

[protege]

The blue smoke wasn't even that much--just a puff or two when the car was first started. It quickly went away after that. If anything was killing his plants, I'd place my bets on his lawnmower--which spewed out *far* more smoke than my car ever did. That, or the millions of chemicals he'd apply to the lawn.

But, it was good to pwn his ass :)

At least I didn't do what some of the kids in town have done. That house has been TP'd, egged (many times, including twice in one night!), and rocks hurled at the windows. Both of their cars have gotten messed with too--shaving cream and keys seem to be favorite weapons. As for the white rock in the yard...that's just stupid. It's just *begging* for someone to spray paint on it...which has happened a few times.

[rdp78]

I have to say Fred Phelps and his followers are just crazy and just want attention. I never gotten why they bother to protest funerals for people they never met and just knew how they died. I think is very disrespectful towards the family and friends who loved the deceased. I always wonder what god are they talking about because I know my God loves everyone no matter what but I think he makes exeptions. I also don't think Jesus would protest a funeral and said he hates people, it just doesn't seem in his nature to do that.

Okay, I had to Google this church and I got 549,000 entries. The first two are their home page (godhatesfags) and the Wikipedia article. The third one is the godhatesamerica website. Anyway I also found http://www.baptistwatch.org which has a nice long read about Phelps and his family. Anyway to sum it up he was very abusive to his children and wife. I think there is a special hell for people like that.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I've been told that the WBCers plan to turn out at this Sunday's memorial service for the victims of the Feb. 14th Northern Illinois University shooting. Given that they've shown up at several of the victims' funeral services already, I would not be surprised if they put in an unwelcome appearance at this service as well.

NIU Memorial Service:

When: Sunday

Where: NIU Convocation Center, 1525 W. Lincoln Hwy in DeKalb

Time: Doors open at 5 p.m.; service starts at 7 p.m.

It's also worth noting that presidential candidate Barack Obama will attend this service, so Obama fans may get a chance to glimpse him/hear him possibly address the crowd.

If you go, I would advise staying as far away from the nutjobs as possible (which shouldn't be too hard as police presence *will* be beefed up in anticipation both of Obama's visit and as a block between the nuts and the understandably-pissed-off people who would love nothing more than to reduce them to messy stains; however, the WBCers have a lengthy history of provocation for the express purpose of then suing people in order to get money - this is in fact how they make a lot of their funding).

I would also advise, if carrying signage of any kind, that it read something along the lines of "we support NIU" or some such; the grieving families who were most affected by the murders will undoubtedly not want any more attention than necessary going towards the scumbags.

That said, have at it. >:) And feel free to pass this information around.

[the_std]

There is nothing I have seen in this world that makes me more upset than these people. The first time I heard about them, I was sixteen. Someone linked me a video of the crazy-lady interview, and I cried the whole time I watched it. I went to school with a lot of very fundamentalist Christians, but they were hippies compared to these people.

I don't have words to describe what I think about them. Every time I hear something on the news relating to them, or someone starts a conversation about, I have to stop and either throw up or cry some more. I refuse to listen to anything about them. I refuse to grace their presence on this Earth with my acknowledgment.

[tropicsgoddess]

Fred Phelps and his family just make my blood boil! Picketing at dead soldier's funerals, preaching hatred and intolerance of other religions,sexual orientations is NOT Christian-like, no matter how he wants to spin it. I hope he burns in hell!

[Jadedcarguy]

I hope he burns in hell!

I don't believe such a place exists, but if it does he'll be there.

[repsac]

Heh. A friend of mine and I were talking about this before. We both agree that Phelps is racking up a TON of bad Karma. Part of me would love to be there to watch it all come to a head, but on the other hand...I'm glad I'm not there.

Oh, and he passed on this little nugget. I think he said it's from The Revelation to John.

"Verily I say to you, many will come before me and say, "Look Lord! Look what I have done in your name! I have cast out demons, I have prophesized, I have worked miricles!" And I will say to them "Be gone from me you doers of iniquity, for I never knew you!"

Apparently Jesus has no patience for Westboro either...

[Jadedcarguy]

Did anyone hear what happened when they tried to protest at the funeral for the bus stabbing victim in Canada? They were stopped at the border, and denied entry because they were there to start a riot! It was also said that if any of them made it in and protested, they would be arrested on the spot for inciting a riot. Beautiful. :D

A quick search turned up this (http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid59125.asp), I'm sure there are more stories. Canada ain't the US, Phelps! Deal with it.

[Boozy]

The US would have done the same things if these jackasses had lived in Canada and had tried to cross south across the border. Sadly, being American citizens, it's much harder to get rid of them in their own country.

[crazylegs]

One day they'll try it in the UK and I'm sure they'll all be arrested for various Public Order offences.

That'd be a shame wouldn't it!

[Rapscallion]

That'd be a shame fucking hilarious wouldn't it!

Edited for my amusement. I think it's telling that although I protect peoples' freedom of religion on CS.com no matter which religion someone follows, I've made a formal exception in the CS rules just for Phelps and his lunatics. They're fair game.

Rapscallion

[Flyndaran]

Edited for my amusement. I think it's telling that although I protect peoples' freedom of religion on CS.com no matter which religion someone follows, I've made a formal exception in the CS rules just for Phelps and his lunatics. They're fair game.

Rapscallion

Despising those that enjoy causing pain to others deserve scorn regardless of the reasons to which they ascribe their actions.

[Rapscallion]

I'm trying to work out if you approve or not.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

I actually happened upon a Phelps & Co. protest once. Matthew Shepard's* mother was giving a talk at the student union and I happened to drive past the building. It was just 5 or 6 people, lazily holding signs, leaning up against the walls or sitting down on the sidewalk. It made me chuckle, to see folks who looked truly apathetic carrying these ridiculous signs. Phelps himself was not there.

*He was beaten and left to die (and did, after a week or so) in Wyoming for being gay. Phelps&Co rather famously protested the funeral. For further reading: The Laramie Project

[Jadedcarguy]

Found this on RD's (richarddawkins.net) site today. Apparently Fred Phelps' own son is an atheist, as a direct result of Phelps bigotry and hatred. And child abuse. :mad:

Linky Clicky!! (http://www.ubyssey.ca/?p=5624)

[AFPheonix]

Found this on RD's (richarddawkins.net) site today. Apparently Fred Phelps' own son is an atheist, as a direct result of Phelps bigotry and hatred. And child abuse. :mad:

Linky Clicky!! (http://www.ubyssey.ca/?p=5624)

I've posted this on other threads related to this, yours backs it up quite nicely. http://blank.org/addict/

Can't wait til' that old SOB keels over.

[protege]

Can't wait til' that old SOB keels over.

Problem is, he's probably already grooming his successor :rolleyes:

[Jadedcarguy]

Problem is, he's probably already grooming his successor :rolleyes:

His successor is that harpy of a daughter he has. Shirley.:mad:

She may be worse than he is.

[AFPheonix]

Possibly, but I don't know that she'll necessarily have his cult of personality, or his power of physical and mental abuse that he has woven over the rest of her siblings. I suspect there may be a schism once he finally goes.

[Cat]

I heard rumors the Phleps clan is supposed to protest Obama's grandmother's funeral (I saw this mentioned on another board, if I find a link I'll post it)

A few of 'em are supposed to come to CT, a couple of my friends were talking about going to whatever the protest is about, probably with humorous, anti-phelps signs.

[Jadedcarguy]

I suspect there may be a schism once he finally goes.

We can hope. :)

[PepperElf]

All I can think of is ... Thank God for bikers!

Is the Westborough church even actively attacking funerals anymore? Last I heard the sight of hundreds of patriotic bikers (who were invited) at many funerals have stopped a lot of hate-filled protest.

[Gerrinson]

I don't suppose there's any way we can convince Mr. Phelps to drink the Kool-Aid, is there?

People like this represent the absolute extreme of Christianity (much like the Crusades) and, honestly, while I don't believe in God, I do believe that Jesus was a pretty stand up guy. And a lot nicer than I am, at least in his public speaking.

Of course, if these guys claim to be following Jesus, I'd like to ask them what they think of his 'turn the other cheek' philosophy and let's not forget 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' and perhaps 'Judge not lest ye be judged.' Or maybe we can get their opinion on the Old Testament which is all about Jews and Judaism and has absolutely ZERO to do with Jesus Christ.

Or maybe we could have a funeral and come to find out their protest was 'accidentally' taking place on top of several of the IEDs for which they are so thankful?

[AdminAssistant]

Well, yippideeskip, I just saw a protest! For whatever reason, WBC has decided to picket a local high school just as the kids are getting out of class. Which I happened to drive by. Heh...it was interesting. The protesters (none of whom I recognized...even a few young kids) were holding the usual signs - except they've added 'Obama is the Anti-Christ'. The high school kids had made signs of their own...gay pride flags, equality signs, that kind of thing. I saw several holding hands, kissing...basically 'you and your stupid signs won't tell me what to do!'

According to their website (I was trying to figure out why on Earth Phelps & co. decided to pick on this high school, besides convenient location) and apparently my town is on their 'watch list' of places they're going to start coming to more often. Yay.

[AFPheonix]

It's not just WBC who thinks Obama is the anti-christ. I've run into a surprising number of Christians that I know who think that he is.
Heaven forbid we elect someone who's actually popular, I guess. I guess no one I know is pre-trib, which is odd because they all loved the Left Behind series, which is pre-trib doctrine.

[AdminAssistant]

OK, now I know why they're protesting, this high school is doing The Laramie Project, the play based on the events surrounding Matthew Shepard's murder and when Fred Phelps came to national attention. Phelps is actually a character in the play, and WBC protests as many productions as possible.

[I8DaCookie]

Phelps is actually a character in the play, and WBC protests as many productions as possible.

When my college did it (sadly we didn't get protested, I would have loved to seen them try it with my uber liberal school) our Phelps was played by one of my favorite people who is a black lesbian. And she was fantastic at it too.

They protested the funerals of two teenagers from my old high school because Maryland had the audacity to rule against them in a civil suit where the plantiff was awarded several million dollars. I actually substituted at the school that day for a teacher who was at the funeral and the few students who were in my class got into a very ranty diatrabe about it.

[Dreamstalker]

They were in Boston about a month ago. I can't remember if the play in question was The Laramie Project (I'm willing to bet that it was), but they were there with their signs etc. On the opposite side of the street was the opposition, some also with signs although a lot less serious about it all. And Boston's Finest, some of whom looked quite bemused about the whole thing.

A fairly hefty guy wearing nothing but a sailor hat, trenchcoat, tiny Speedo and shoes (that had to have been planned, it was freezing that night) decides to flash them, then goes into an exaggerated bump-and-grind.

Cue the cops and all assembled laughing their asses off. I can only assume that the flock packed up and left quite pissed off (mom and her friend went into a theater at this point so she didn't see the aftermath).

I was mildly disappointed that she didn't manage to get pictures.

[crazylegs]

It would appear that Phelps (and Daughter) have been prevented from entering the UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/7898972.stm), shame really I'd love to see them arrested.

[Rapscallion]

Heh - I've seen the occasional decrying of the UK's not quite free speech legislation on here, but I wonder how this is now viewed?

Rapscallion

[protege]

I wonder how long it will be until a "God Hates the UK" website appears :rolleyes:

[Rapscallion]

I was considering buying that URL for shits and giggles a while back.

Rapscallion

[Pedersen]

ya know... I'm now finding myself tempted to buy "godhatesgodhatesfags.com" just to tweak them a bit.

And now I find that it's already been bought by some Aussie. Figures :)

[kiwi]

All I have to say on the WBC is what a waste of life.

I wish people with that much passion could put it towards good instead of hate.

[fireheart17]

I was considering buying that URL for shits and giggles a while back.

Rapscallion

Another sibling for Fratching?

ya know... I'm now finding myself tempted to buy "godhatesgodhatesfags.com" just to tweak them a bit.

And now I find that it's already been bought by some Aussie. Figures :)

I'm surprised...Phelps is a rarity to us and now some Aussie went and bought it....o.O

[Rapscallion]

Another sibling for Fratching?


Not really, more to stick in his craw when he realises it's already taken. The UK gubmint just put him on a list of people we consider undesireable.

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

I'm surprised...Phelps is a rarity to us and now some Aussie went and bought it....o.O Fred Nile? Very vocal.

[crazylegs]

The UK gubmint just put him on a list of people we consider undesireable.

Rapscallion

He was actually placed on the list some time ago, it's only now that the list has been published.

[smileyeagle1021]

Oh, I found something quite interesting... if you want some major insite into this vile "church"

http://natephelps.com/10801.html

I'll be honest... I was horrified reading that and finding out how Fred Phelps treats his own family.... and makes me less surprised at the vile things he does to others.

[AFPheonix]

The link I posted earlier (http://blank.org/addict/)
has some input from both Mark and Nate. It also goes into more detail into the rest of the kids and the whole episode with Kathy that Nate alluded to. It's a terrible, sordid tale and it needs to spread far and wide.

[Greenday]

Tough time deciding which WBC thread to bring up but I'd deem this one as the main one.

http://www.asylum.com/2010/07/16/westboro-baptist-church-picket-comic-con/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl7|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asylum.com%2F2010%2F0 7%2F16%2Fwestboro-baptist-church-picket-comic-con%2F

That's right, Westboro is going to picket...Comic-Con! Wait what? Comic-Con? Oh, that's right, cause God hates nerds! Everyone knows that!

[KnitShoni]

Seriously? You would think a "church" would have better things to do.

[Hobbs]

I wanna see a picture like this with Fred Phelps instead of Hirohito:

http://schools.sd68.bc.ca/bars/staff/images/superman_hitler.jpg

[fireheart17]

What the heck?!

Lol, someone should show up with a sign that says "God LOVES Nerds. They are the smart ones. They can help Him with His issues."

ETA: Going from the Wikipedia article, they apparaently picketed a store that sold Swedish vaccuum cleaners due to a homophobic pastor being prosecuted in Sweden. (WTF)

I'd love to also see WBC protest AvCon....the entire convention is full of kids 15 and older.

[smileyeagle1021]

ETA: Going from the Wikipedia article, they apparaently picketed a store that sold Swedish vaccuum cleaners due to a homophobic pastor being prosecuted in Sweden. (WTF)


Have they picketed Ikea yet? :p

[Skelly]

Have they picketed Ikea yet? :p

Considering how wealthy Ingvar Kamprad is, I doubt they dare, lest he hires Blackwater or whatever they call themselves these days to mount an armed assault (no quarter given) on their asses :p.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Considering how wealthy Ingvar Kamprad is, I doubt they dare, lest he hires Blackwater or whatever they call themselves these days to mount an armed assault (no quarter given) on their asses :p.

Xe (defense industries or some-such like that.) Although I do believe that Xe only takes jobs for the US government. That said, I'm sure there's someone out there who's willing to do that for pay. And plenty who'll probably do it for free :D

[Skelly]

Xe (defense industries or some-such like that.) Although I do believe that Xe only takes jobs for the US government. That said, I'm sure there's someone out there who's willing to do that for pay. And plenty who'll probably do it for free :D
Only because few others are capable of paying what they want :p. Mercenary companies in the not very distant past haven't been picky as to whom they work for. Mining companies in Sierra Leone and such. I doubt Xe is any different :p.
Didn't they plan to start their own navy to blow pirates out of the water outside Somalia and such, to protect shipping? IIRC, they planned to offer escort to shipping companies (and have them pay for it I guess). Now there's a business opportunity.:) If one only had 20 million or so to sink into it to get going with the project. I guess it's true that you need money to make money...

[Dreamstalker]

That's right, Westboro is going to picket...Comic-Con! Wait what? Comic-Con? Oh, that's right, cause God hates nerds! Everyone knows that!
*facepalm*

"Are you a god?" (think very, very carefully about your answer WBC)

I'll have to watch G4's coverage to see if they show up. Should be interesting.

[ArenaBoy]

This is hilarious on so many levels.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/07/22/super-heroes-vs-the-westboro-baptist-church/

[Hobbs]

Aww, how I wish I coulda stood nerd-to-nerd against WBC.

[tabbyblack13]

I heard about the Comic-Con one. They apparently think that comics are an idol that we pray to. If Comics are idols that we pray to, then is Stan Lee God? :D I think there was a video on YouTube about the counter signs but I don't have the link to it. I'll have to find it later.

I also looked at the protest schedule (http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html) and it looks like they are protesting a Justin Bieber concert at the Sprint Center in Kansas City, MO on 7/28/2010. I want to go to see all of the teeny boppers (sp?) rip them to shreds. To give everyone a heads up about the schedule it states the reason why they are going there. It says a few mean things about another religion, military, and other singers.

[AdminAssistant]

tabby, I imagine that has less to do with Bieber and more to do with location. Kansas City is close, so they tend to protest a lot of high-profile events there (although they were shockingly absent at the Billy Joel/Elton John concert).

[Hobbs]

it looks like they are protesting a Justin Bieber concert.

They might be racist, bigoted assholes...but at least they got good taste :p

[smileyeagle1021]

They are protesting American Idol because it promotes Idols other than God (at least I think that's what they were going on about). Oy Vey.

[Dreamstalker]

Why did I see that coming? :rolleyes:

[Greenday]

They are protesting American Idol because it promotes Idols other than God (at least I think that's what they were going on about). Oy Vey.

I gotta say, that's a pretty clear cut one in the Bible.

[Arcade Man D]

I gotta say, that's a pretty clear cut one in the Bible.

Yes, except that idol is being used in a different sense nowadays. Idol, in this case, simply means a person subject to public adoration for their talented singing and showmanship. Not an object to be worshiped as representative of a deity.

[lordlundar]

If Comics are idols that we pray to, then is Stan Lee God?

I can think of more than a few people who would answer YES! in a heartbeat.:p

[Racket_Man]

protesting at a soldiers funeral

this time someone did a drive-by and tried to mace them with an industrial sized can. unfortuneately he maced the wrong people and got the WBC counter-protesters. yes the macer did get arrested and charged

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/westboro-baptist-church-protesters-are-pepper-sprayed-at-marines-funeral-in-omaha/19612414?icid=main%7Chp-desktop%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%7C167020

[smileyeagle1021]

Deciding to mace WBC protesters... hmm... I'd say that is an understandable desire, I will admit that I would be seriously tempted to do that if I had a chance.
Hitting the wrong group though... okay, seriously, if you are going to attack someone make sure you attack the right person.

[Hobbs]

OMG, this is from the site about the waiteress and tipping: http://christwire.org/2010/08/bigot-gays-douse-innocent-crowd-with-pepper-spray-dozens-injured/

So much fail and spin I can't think right.

[Anthony K. S.]

OMG, this is from the site about the waiteress and tipping: http://christwire.org/2010/08/bigot-gays-douse-innocent-crowd-with-pepper-spray-dozens-injured/

So much fail and spin I can't think right.


That's the guy who claimed that a fire tornado sweeping through Buenos Aires was actually a punishment from God for gay couples adopting children, right?


I don't know how many people here are unaware of this, but christwire.org is a parody website. The articles published on it are intended to mock Christians who hold those sorts of extremist views.

Now, I will admit . . . When I first saw the website, I honestly believed it was real, and the writers on it were actually advocating these views.

However, I grew suspicious when I saw this article about that woman who was caught on videotape throwing a cat into a garbage bin :

"Woman disposes cat vermin in bin, angry cat activists identify her and now threaten to kill her" (http://christwire.org/2010/08/woman-disposes-cat-vermin-in-bin-angry-cat-activists-identify-her-and-now-threaten-to-kill-her/)

The article claimed that cats are evil and that people who own cats will always fall to the wiles of Satan.

And then, this article pretty much convinced me :

"Proof : Liberals have cloned Sarah Palin to make her look dumb." (http://christwire.org/2009/11/proof-liberals-have-cloned-sarah-palin-to-make-her-look-dumb-photos/)

It claims that the Sarah Palin we saw stumbling her way through those disastrous interviews with Katie Couric in 2008 was actually a clone created by NBC, and coached to say stupid things and make Palin look bad.

I did a web search, and, indeed, there are several references on the Internet to christwire.org as a parody website. Once I realized that, I actually found it rather amusing.

[Arcade Man D]

I don't know how many people here are unaware of this, but christwire.org is a parody website. The articles published on it are intended to mock Christians who hold those sorts of extremist views.

So, basically, everyone here fell for Poe's Law?

[IDrinkaRum]

They are now going to go and protest at Elizabeth Edwards' funeral (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/09/elizabeth-edwards-funeral-westboro-baptist-church_n_794333.html)

Got the above link from someone I follow on Twitter.

[Andara Bledin]

We need to start ignoring and shunning these zealots. They need to stop getting any press at all.

^-.-^

[Ghel]

They need to stop getting any press at all.
I completely agree. Not only do we need to stop feeding their egos, but at this point, it's no longer news. Maybe if it escalated into a fistfight, it would be news, but WBC's protests, by themselves, aren't news any more.

[IDrinkaRum]

I agree too, but who is going to be giving the Cluex4 to the media?

I'll help, but I can't do it alone. :p

[Boozy]

I agree too, but who is going to be giving the Cluex4 to the media?

I'll help, but I can't do it alone. :p

Okay, but here's the thing....

You posted a link to the story on a news site, so many of us clicked on it. That gets the news site increased traffic, which allows them to charge more for advertising on the site, which leads them to (rightly) believe that coverage on the Westboro church is profitable.

I think people are more powerful than they realize when it comes controlling media content. You're right that you're just one person, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing you can do.

I think everyone has the right to consume whatever (legal) media they'd like, but I hate to hear people complain about content that they themselves consume.

[derangedperson]

I'm still amazed that none of these inbred fucktards have been executed for treason yet.

[protege]

I'm still amazed that none of these inbred fucktards have been executed for treason yet.

Why? They're not trying to overthrow the government. All they're doing is stirring up hatred, and making themselves look like assholes.

[derangedperson]

Why? They're not trying to overthrow the government. All they're doing is stirring up hatred, and making themselves look like assholes.

I should preface this by stating that my brother is in the Air Force.

Protesting is one thing. Celebrating and advocating the deaths of U.S. soldiers abroad and at home crosses the line from protesting to treason, at least to me.

These people DIED to protect your right to say what you say and you piss on their sacrifice, make their families suffer even more, and spit in the face of everything they've done to protect you?

Fuck you. That's treason to me.

If I was in charge they would have been executed LONG ago.

Apologies if I offended anyone, but since my brother's in the military, this hits home for me a lot more than it did five years ago.

[Andara Bledin]

Celebrating and advocating the deaths of U.S. soldiers abroad and at home crosses the line from protesting to treason, at least to me.
Alas, that whole "freedom of speech" thing protects bigoted fucktards as equally as enlightened visionaries.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

Alas, that whole "freedom of speech" thing protects bigoted fucktards as equally as enlightened visionaries.

^-.-^

If it didn't, it wouldn't be freedom. The beauty of it is that everyone can say what they want, even if its stupid and offensive. You can't have freedom of speech if you can't say offensive things.

[derangedperson]

If it didn't, it wouldn't be freedom. The beauty of it is that everyone can say what they want, even if its stupid and offensive. You can't have freedom of speech if you can't say offensive things.

I suppose. Doesn't mean we have to like it.

In the end, it all comes back to Voltaire: "I don't like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[MadMike]

Alas, that whole "freedom of speech" thing protects bigoted fucktards as equally as enlightened visionaries.


Freedom of speech is a consitutional right. Harrassment is not. And I'm not sure where the line is between free speech and harrassment.

[Hyena Dandy]

I suppose. Doesn't mean we have to like it.

In the end, it all comes back to Voltaire: "I don't like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Exactly. I think what they do is despicable, offensive, and should not be tolerated by any right-thinking citizen.

But it can't be treasonous. That crosses the line more than any protester.

[Ghel]

I don't recall seeing any of the WBC's signs advocate action by any human being. "Thank God for dead soldiers" is not a call to action. In that sense, I don't see how it can be viewed as treason.

On the harassment front, I've heard that WBC makes sure to follow local, state, and national laws regarding when and where they can stage their protests. Although we may view it as harassment, from a legal standpoint it is not.

[Andara Bledin]

Freedom of speech is a consitutional right. Harrassment is not. And I'm not sure where the line is between free speech and harrassment.
The law sometimes has trouble deciding that, as well.

As it stands, they generally have to keep a certain distance from what they're protesting, but not so much distance as to make their protest completely irrelevant.

Personally, I'd just as soon have a few of these over-the-top whack-a-loons out there shining an unflinching light on just how ugly bigotry is.

^-.-^

[Skunkle]

When things really hurt me emotionally in an overpowering way, I actually feel physical pain. I can count on one hand the things in my entire life that have done this. The Phelps group is on the list. I am Christian, and the God in which I put my Faith does NOT support this kind of hatred and anger... Against men who died? I am not supportive of war, but still, these men died in the name of our country. Thousands and thousands of them, sadly. Free speech is indeed protective of even the opinions any one person disagrees with, and the problem inherent in being human is these lines which it's nearly impossible to stay on the "right" side of; despite the fact that supporting free speech means I must support their right to say these things, I cannot support their right to say these things at funerals. If one of the Westboro people dies, I won't be outside their funeral, doing some sort of happy dance; it isn't respectful when they do it, nor would it be if I did it to them!

Phelps really has his Ts crossed and Is dotted here. He has training as a lawyer, and whether he is or isn't any longer, he used to be (he would threaten his childrens' schools with his powers when they moved to go after him upon seeing his abused children). He checks his laws and statutes regarding what he can do, where. But he's finding less and less tolerance of his views and his protests.

Yes, as noted, he abuses his family - heavy and harsh physical abuse. My best guess is that this is an offshoot of his particular sect or splinter sect of Christian religion, which in my opinion stands to help explain how he thinks the way he does: Westboro's 'thing' is an extremely extremist version of Calvinism, the line concocted by John Calvin involving predestination. The basic idea is that people are selected by God before birth to be saved or fallen; if you're fallen from birth, nothing you can do can ever save you. Vice versa, too; if you're saved, nothing you do can cause you to fall from grace. Taken to his extremes, this means that the born-to-be-saved can do no wrong but, further, being essentially God's elect and chosen, are thus supported by God in condemning the fallen and their sins. I'm not honestly certain whether Phelps himself really believes this, or whether he knows he's doing wrong and using others to support his power.

While I wholly believe that condemning others is wrong, I also admit that I fall prey to my own sins, being human, and thinking judgmental thoughts about others does happen. I feel the least guilty doing this about Phelps; if there is any man on earth I can imagine who is not simply insane (for example, I think Kim Jong-Il and Saddam Hussein are/were simply insane and power-mad) but actually stands a good chance of being literally controlled by evil forces - I'm not certain on my beliefs about WHAT the evil force IS (since Satan isn't really described in the Bible as he seems to be thought of today) but I do believe that Phelps is, knowingly or not, actively doing evil.

There used to be (sadly gone now) a parody site, God hates figs.

Oh, and... While I don't recommend reading the Westboro site, especially the Matthew Shepard page, unless you want to cry really, really hard, there's a photo of him on the site, standing at a podium, wearing a jet-black suit and a fairly straight facial expression, that gives me the jibblies somethin' awful. I mean, Phelps always creeps me out, but that one image somehow just feels nasty.

Oh, and in case readers haven't seen my other comments on appropriate threads, I am gay - well, bi, really - and am attached to a boyfriend of five years, with whom I can see myself staying for a long time. I'm Christian, not really sticking to any one denomination as the "one true church". If/when I attend services, I go to St. Mark's, the Episcopal Cathedral in Seattle. And I highly recommend this as a place to go if you're gay/bi/straight-and-supporting, and want to attend a Christian church who stands by you in this. The pastor there is gay, and I was at his swearing-in ceremony (can't remember what they call it) listening to Desmond Tutu speak - a very powerful moment - while a few Phelps-ites were protesting outside; at least, I'm told they were, because I never saw them.

[Hyena Dandy]

Oh, and in case readers haven't seen my other comments on appropriate threads, I am gay - well, bi, really - and am attached to a boyfriend of five years, with whom I can see myself staying for a long time. I'm Christian, not really sticking to any one denomination as the "one true church". If/when I attend services, I go to St. Mark's, the Episcopal Cathedral in Seattle. And I highly recommend this as a place to go if you're gay/bi/straight-and-supporting, and want to attend a Christian church who stands by you in this. The pastor there is gay, and I was at his swearing-in ceremony (can't remember what they call it) listening to Desmond Tutu speak - a very powerful moment - while a few Phelps-ites were protesting outside; at least, I'm told they were, because I never saw them.

Whooo, gay Christian five!

[Skunkle]

Gay Christian FURRY five! "Skunkle" is my only-semi-furry name here - I'm Zephyr Skunk over on FA.

Been reading your posts on CS for a while and wishing I could jump in and chat off-topic, but...

[Ipecac Drano]

I am Christian, and the God in which I put my Faith does NOT support this kind of hatred and anger...
Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. In some parts of the Bible, God deplores certain kinds of people and prescribes all kinds of nastiness and even death for them. In other parts of the Bible, he says to love those who trespass, no matter the offense.

Against men who died?
Per Phelps, against men who died defending homosexuality. But, in shorthand, against all soldiers. The man has logic issues.

[protege]

Protesting is one thing. Celebrating and advocating the deaths of U.S. soldiers abroad and at home crosses the line from protesting to treason, at least to me.

Still not buying it. How is exercising one's freedom of speech, even though I don't agree with what the WBC is spewing, equal to treason? Freedom of speech also applies to speech that we don't agree with. Double-edged sword, that is.

These people DIED to protect your right to say what you say and you piss on their sacrifice, make their families suffer even more, and spit in the face of everything they've done to protect you?

Uh, where have I done this? Find me *one* post I've made that I haven't been supporting our troops. Oh, and several of my relatives have served, and a couple are still in.

Fuck you. That's treason to me.

"Fuck me?" Sorry, but I don't go for people who can't look up words in the dictionary. Speaking of which, Merriam-Webster's online dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/treason) defines treason as:

1: the betrayal of a trust : treachery
2: the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family

Where have the WBC done *any* of that? All they've done, is (again) executed their freedom of speech. Again, that freedom, applies to speech that not everyone agrees with. To say otherwise, amounts to censorship...and is one step down the road towards a dictatorship.

If I was in charge they would have been executed LONG ago.

...and that's why we have freedom of speech in the first place.


Apologies if I offended anyone, but since my brother's in the military, this hits home for me a lot more than it did five years ago.

Tell him that we appreciate what he's doing.

[Andara Bledin]

Uh, where have I done this? ....
I'm pretty sure that one and the next comment you quoted are directed at WBC, not you.

^-.-^

[Skunkle]

I think Andara is correct. Love your quote, Andara.

I support their right to say what they want. But my thoughts are that while I support everyone's right to free speech, there are venues which are appropriate. There are venues which are not; funerals and schools are two that are not. In the latter case, they obviously don't care if children see their graphic messages. In the former, they're *trying* to make people angry; they WANT to start riots. They're in the school of "there is no such thing as bad publicity, there is only publicity".

Yes, Ipecac, the Bible does change messages in places... but I don't accept the Bible as one solid text, written in literal terms and assembled, as we read it today, exactly as God intends. First of all, everything in the Bible has been filtered though imperfect and, thus, biased human minds, hands and mouths, often multiple times. Some of these have been translations, and I don't think scholars always necessarily choose the best word of one language to match a word of the old without personal bias or opinion affecting which they "think God probably intended".

It is also not complete; the Catholic church, a very long time ago, has picked and chosen which texts, which gospels, were in and out. I don't know why some were deemed appropriate and some were not, but not all texts of "prophets" got in.

Next, look at sections such as Leviticus: It seems clear to me that what's written there are not God's proclamations so much as they are common laws of the time. The thinking may have run "We are Godly people. These are our common laws. Thus, by proxy, these must be God's laws." For reasons no Christian I've met who considers Leviticus damning evidence that God abhors homosexuality has been able to explain to me, they accept that "a man may not lay with a man as he lays with a woman; it is an abomination" and yet we accept that stoning to death (or killing in any way) for some transgressions listed such as disobeying your parents, or things like wearing clothing made from mixed fibers or planting more than one type of crop in a single field, are abominations; we don't follow many of these, and yet some want to follow that one? The only person I've asked who gave any sort of explanation as to why we follow that one and not the others said, "The others just don't apply any more". Who says they don't? Who says they all DO apply? If they don't, what changed them and not that one?

Last but not least, I accept that much of the Bible is put into the format of parables and fictional stories; I don't think it all literally happened as written. Even things not noted therein as parables,. I think, may have been written with the intention of teaching people of that time through working examples, rather than recording actual and factual events exactly as they occurred. For example, I don't think God created the earth in seven calendar days; yes, it could easily have taken such a short time, but I don't think it necessarily was exactly as written; I believe it was separated thus, again,. to separate the process in the retelling as a story about Creation, and thus placed in terms of days, a concept the writer knew people could understand and grasp.

There are but a handful of passages in the Bible discussing what sounds like homosexuality, and there are among and around them many others dealing with all manner of other sins; Leviticus alone lists many, many things as abominations unto God. Why, then, is this one supposed sin taken as the prime sin above all others by Phelps and crew? My opinion: THEY hate it above all others, and if they are God's predestined chosen (there's that extremist Calvinism bit again) that must mean it is God's cardinal sin...despite not being mentioned in the Commandments - any of them, far as I've seen. One of my local friends grew up going to a church whose pastor told him that "gay" and "homosexuality" were, as such, specifically mentioned in the Bible; I'll pay $500 right now to anyone who can pick up a normal (let's say, King James) Bible and find any mention of "gay" people (meaning homosexuals) or "homosexuality". Now, Schlafly's Conservapedia idea about doing a re-translation with a 'proper' Conservative bent? I'm sure it'll be in there; they've already mentioned the 'need' in the rewrite to describe hell in the modern-day-accepted ways rather than the way it is already described therein.

Do I think homosexuality is condemned? No. Not a monogamous, loving relationship between any two consenting people. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not, but I don't think I'll know that nebulous "the truth" until I have passed on and am meeting my God or His representative in whatever physical or metaphysical way it happens.

I take anything I hear from Westboro's people with that caveat: In my opinion, they can and will believe that anything they believe must automatically be God's will because they are His chosen saved. Do I think they're his "Chosen"? No. Do I think they're all fallen? No. I still believe that Faith saves - anyone and everyone. No matter what. But I also don't believe it is my right to pass judgment upon anyone else for their sins; I believe my sins are ALL I have to worry about. No one else has the right to judge me, nor have I the right to call anyone else. I refuse to accept that Phelps can call my sins, tell me what they are, or anything like that.

My opinion of God, above all other ideas I may have: God is about love. He loves us. He hates sins, but this does not mean He hates us. I shy away from any pastor or religious leader, though, who tells me what my sins are. That's not his or her job or duty, nor does God, in my opinion, delegate this ability to any person on earth. We are not granted the rights to judge in His name, to persecute in His name, or to kill in His name. And Westboro seem pretty darned clear about the idea that *murdering* homosexuals would be acceptable. THAT alone tells me they're not who and what they say they are. Anyone who says "God HATES you" is not someone I believe; anyone who kills/murders in God's name or advocates this is definitely not doing God's work.

[derangedperson]

Apologies, protege. That post I made was in NO way directed at you. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. I was just in a foul mood when I wrote that, and I could have worded it better.

Either way, the old adage rings true:

The people who scream about God the loudest are the ones who hear Him the least.

[Ipecac Drano]

Yes, Ipecac, the Bible does change messages in places... but I don't accept the Bible as one solid text, written in literal terms and assembled, as we read it today, exactly as God intends.
Which defeats the purpose of having it, for the Xtians that is.


First of all, everything in the Bible has been filtered though imperfect and, thus, biased human minds, hands and mouths, often multiple times. Some of these have been translations, and I don't think scholars always necessarily choose the best word of one language to match a word of the old without personal bias or opinion affecting which they "think God probably intended".
True, all that, but the difference between "Burn the city and all its inhabitants to the ground" and "Love thy enemies" isn't just 1°; it's 180°.


It is also not complete; the Catholic church, a very long time ago, has picked and chosen which texts, which gospels, were in and out. I don't know why some were deemed appropriate and some were not, but not all texts of "prophets" got in.
The editing started before the Catholics got their hands on it and King James did some more snipping. As for it "not being complete", people are still adding their own things to it; e.g., the Latter Day Saints with their Book of Mormon ("A new testament of Jesus Christ.").


Last but not least, I accept that much of the Bible is put into the format of parables and fictional stories; I don't think it all literally happened as written. Even things not noted therein as parables,. I think, may have been written with the intention of teaching people of that time through working examples, rather than recording actual and factual events exactly as they occurred. For example, I don't think God created the earth in seven calendar days; yes, it could easily have taken such a short time, but I don't think it necessarily was exactly as written; I believe it was separated thus, again,. to separate the process in the retelling as a story about Creation, and thus placed in terms of days, a concept the writer knew people could understand and grasp.
But keep in mind that back in those days, those people didn't know that much about the world. The soon-to-be Xtians thought that the world was on columns.

All I can say is that there is a huge paradox in editing the Bible: on one hand, there are parts that shouldn't be there, such as commanding the people to destroy cities and then telling them to love their enemies (nevermind that God is going to do the destruction himself); and on the other hand, they're cutting out things that their GOD is saying. I guess there is no better way to tell God that one loves him by interrupting him and/or just ignoring some of the things he says.

[Skunkle]

Which is why I think many books of it are indeed things people put in, assuming that because THEY thought these things were right, and THEY thought THEY were Godly people or even God's chosen people, this must mean that these things were by proxy God's word, rules, laws and whatnot. The Bible is a book with some very useful stories and lessons in the ways of living a good, just life. That isn't to say the whole thing is correct, and I think it gets heavily abused; it isn't an automatic argument-winner or a weapon to destroy your enemies (unless you get a really big one and hit people with it, in which case it might function as both reasonably well).

I really hate to say "I'm a Christian, but I swear I'm not like the crazy Christians", but I have to. And it's the truth. I feel sad inside every time someone uses their religion as a weapon or as a crutch, but unfortunately, both are very common. There is, I feel somewhat sad to say, nothing I can do to fix the image...

...or is there? What I can do is try to be the Christian I want to have as an example. Downside: I'm human, I still screw up and commit sins. Upside: I screw up and commit sins, and I can and do admit that. I'm not perfect, and I can't be. No Christian is; being saved doesn't mean you suddenly lose the problem of doing or saying bad things, and everyone screws up sometimes, sometimes in big ways. And that's the message as I put it: I'm a Christian and I'm still on the same level as everyone else, privy to the same merits and the same faults.

The gist I get from Phelps' stuff is that he acts as though he cannot commit a sin... and I understand that to be an interpretation one could have from the Calvinist system: if you are predestined from birth to be saved, and cannot change your fate, by definition you cannot sin; the Christian call is that we as humans are born sinners, and this preempts that by saying that some are saved before birth. Some Christians say you're fallen, but you can be saved by doing good works in God's name; other Christians say you're fallen, but you can be saved by accepting Jesus as your Saviour. In this case, it seems, you're born fallen and you CANNOT be saved - if you're to be saved, you'll be saved from birth, and you'll KNOW it. In the Westboro format, this has been taken to mean that the predestined saved not only CAN do anything they want (probably including killing) and not fall, but that, being saved by predestination and thus, essentially, God's chosen people, any acts you commit against the fallen are basically God working through you!

...okay, I gotta stop now... This makes me feel sad. I simply cannot believe my Lord condones this.

[Ipecac Drano]

All I can say is follow your heart on this (as long as you don't harm someone else). I got tired of trying to sort out what was divine and what was just human and abandoned it all. You sound like you have more patience for this than I had. Good luck, bro.

[Skunkle]

Thanks... That's what I try to do. I know I may not get everything right, but that's still just a part of being human.

As far as I see, the only reason average people v(not leaders of churches) go off on this kind of ideal - that some people deserve only to die - are riding a power trip. Enjoying "knowing" they're up and you're down. Phelps is, I don't doubt, also on a power trip, but he actually has people under his control.

Also: I refuse to believe, I CAN'T believe, what Phelps claims about God laughing when people die. Is anyone here brave enough to read their website (I tried years ago, didn't get far) and find out what they claim as proof that homosexuality is a sin above other sins? A handful of Bible passages don't cut it for me, when far more passages mention other sins; unless they're taking Sodom and Gomorrah as proof? I'm not convinced of that one; I figure that was more about promiscuity than homosexuality, but I could be wrong.

As to the Book of Mormom, I'm not really sure on that one. From what little I gathered talking to some LDS people, the idea there is that in the so-called "missing years" of Jesus, he visited the American continent by some sort of divine ability and preached to civilizations here (Incan or Mayan or somesuch), who took his lessons but understood them in different ways. I'm not sure if that's what's in the Book of Mormon, but I assume it's another book of writings of prophets. If it IS, I'd say the anti-Mormon sentiment on that level might just be "Our prophets were genuine, yours were false" (which doesn't take into account why WE left the writings of certain prophets out of OUR Bible). I also hear crazy stories of Mormons, mainly related to that bizarre 80s Mormon animated film about children of the stars on another planet making heavenly babies or somesuch, and on the forum where I found that, half the responses were "I've been Mormon for years and this is totally bullshit" and half were "I was Mormon for years and this is completely true!" With such an even split, it's useless at giving any hints.

[Mytical]

Though I am still waiting for a religion to explain why theirs is right and others wrong (without saying because this person or this book said so), and answer all my questions to my liking..I can say this...

95% of all the Christians I have ever talked to are rational, reasonable human beings with good hearts. Unfortunately the 5% are the ones that get the press and attention. It's like at a restaurant. Do you notice the 15 kids being nice and behaved..or the 2 that are screaming/yelling etc? Sadly, people pay more attention to the 2.

I may not believe as they believe, but I respect their right to believe as they want to believe. My nature is that I question everything, even question the questioning of everything..but that is my issue..not theirs :D.

As for Phelps and his gang? They are the 2 children in the restaurant. They just want attention, good or bad doesn't matter.

[Skunkle]

Exactly. The quiet Christians don't get the press.

There's a saying that's been taken as gospel by more than a few celebrities of various kinds, basically stating that there's no such thing as "good" or "bad" publicity, there's only publicity. That is also, to a degree, what PETA seems to do, eschewing actually getting anything done in exchange for getting notoriety.

I figure Phelps, if he DOES believe what he says/does, figures that getting notoriety helps his cause. At the same time, the fact that he's yet not open to new members (as far as I know) tells me he's not advertising for new recruits - he's warning the sinners that his group of saved are on the march and comin' for you.

What I do wonder is who he thinks will commit the violence he advocates against gays? Unless he's hooking up with the Watchmen On The Walls...

[Mytical]

You'd be surprised. The same people that a politician can convince that "X Immigrant is your problem!" ((Lets go over this shall we? "Irish are stealing your jobs! Blacks are stealing your jobs! Etc")) are the type that can be scared into attacking gays. Fear can make people irrational, and some people are good at scaring people. Also, because somebody else 'scared' them into doing it, they don't have to take the blame for their action. People don't like to accept responsibility either.

Its a powerful combination. Fear, and blame shifting. Worse, it only has to happen a couple of times. Then reprisals start happening. Then escalates, and soon the original person has what they wanted. People turning to them to 'protect' them.

Ignorance makes people easy to manipulate, unfortunately. For all the information available out there, there are still way too many people who just don't do their own research. Because 'its to hard'. They would rather their politicians or religious leader..or union organizers..or lawyers...etc do the thinking for them.

[Skunkle]

True. The Watchmen On The Walls I mentioned are a Ukranian Christian group who push the message that not only does God advocate killing homosexuals, but that they (this group themselves) should do it. I mean, go out and murder 'em. Almost more frightening.

And yeah, Westboro are probably hoping others will do their dirty work for them, which is another vote in my opinion for Phelps knowing he's doing evil.

[Skunkle]

Interesting note from Wikipedia that Westboro considers Barack Obama the antichrist, and considers him to be in an unholy trinity with satan and the current Pope, who they consider to be the false prophet.

Surprisingly, he may not be on Obama for his race: Phelps used to champion civil rights cases and work with black people, so it seems. He IS disbarred, I see.

[Ipecac Drano]

Though I am still waiting for a religion to explain why theirs is right and others wrong (without saying because this person or this book said so), and answer all my questions to my liking..I can say this...I've heard many Xtians tell me how the people at the church down the street got it wrong. They wouldn't be vicious and say that the other congregation is going to Hell, but they would state their reasons either matter-of-factly or with some amusement in their tone. My favorite has always been some Protestants claiming that Catholics are not Xtians.


95% of all the Christians I have ever talked to are rational, reasonable human beings with good hearts. Unfortunately the 5% are the ones that get the press and attention. It's like at a restaurant. Do you notice the 15 kids being nice and behaved..or the 2 that are screaming/yelling etc? Sadly, people pay more attention to the 2.
95% of the Xtians I talk to are rational, reasonable human beings with good hearts, but when I get into deep discussions about religion I see a different side to them.


I may not believe as they believe, but I respect their right to believe as they want to believe. My nature is that I question everything, even question the questioning of everything..but that is my issue..not theirs
It's their issue, too.

[Mytical]

Oddly enough, the ones I talk religion with (and philosophy), are awesome. Sure the debates can get heated, but sometimes that just makes it interesting.

Little background here, though I haven't for awhile do to having a lot less time I volunteer from time to time at a soup kitchen. It's ran by a preacher, and his congregation help him. We've had some interesting discussions afterward :).

[Ipecac Drano]

Oddly enough, the ones I talk religion with (and philosophy), are awesome. Sure the debates can get heated, but sometimes that just makes it interesting.

Little background here, though I haven't for awhile do to having a lot less time I volunteer from time to time at a soup kitchen. It's ran by a preacher, and his congregation help him. We've had some interesting discussions afterward :).
It depends on what questions one asks them.
;)

[Skunkle]

People are welcome to call my faith irrational, but faith really is about believing in something without a shred of hard evidence - and yet still believing it. I make no excuses about that. Generally, though, I prefer to avoid discussions of religion or politics except with people I know very well already, as I find it tends to end in arguments. I don't enjoy arguments, so I try to nip them in the bud *before* they start.

But then, my views on faith and religion might make many average Christians raise their eyebrows.

[Boozy]

People are welcome to call my faith irrational, but faith really is about believing in something without a shred of hard evidence - and yet still believing it.

Hooray! Finally someone who gets it.

I don't understand why someone would feel the need to defend their faith. It's called "faith" for a reason. It doesn't have to be scientific, and shouldn't factor into scientific discussions.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

For the record, I'm not Christian. I'm not anything, really.

[Hyena Dandy]

95% of the Xtians I talk to are rational, reasonable human beings with good hearts, but when I get into deep discussions about religion I see a different side to them.

Perhaps, Ipecac, that is because your style of discussion is so disrespectful. Maybe being Christian isn't the problem, its how you talk to them. Nobody likes to be disrespected.

[McDreidel09]

A handful of Bible passages don't cut it for me, when far more passages mention other sins; unless they're taking Sodom and Gomorrah as proof? I'm not convinced of that one; I figure that was more about promiscuity than homosexuality, but I could be wrong.

The reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing to do about sex. It was about hospitality. In that time and place, one was expected to take in people who came to their door. However, a law was passed in Sodom and Gomorrah that said that no strangers were to be taken in. This angered God and then the story continues from there.

The reason people say that it is about homosexuality is because of the whole "Let us see these men so that we may know them" thing.

My intro to Gay Studies was amazing for this. =D

[Ipecac Drano]

Originally Posted by Skunkle
People are welcome to call my faith irrational, but faith really is about believing in something without a shred of hard evidence - and yet still believing it.
Hooray! Finally someone who gets it.
I got it a long time ago and I'm sure others had, too.


I don't understand why someone would feel the need to defend their faith. It's called "faith" for a reason. It doesn't have to be scientific, and shouldn't factor into scientific discussions.
Nobody is attacking their faith; I'm just curious why they can't accept the tangible. I know that absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence, but why go through the trouble of believing in something that has nothing pointing to it? It doesn't just stop at the first step (believing); it goes on from there; to where people have to ignore established facts in order to make their "vision" believable to them, and to others.

And, by the way, Dandy,before you judge me, my face-to-face discussions with Xtians never get to the point of my saying that.

Perhaps, Ipecac, that is because your style of discussion is so disrespectful.Yeah, asking a question that can't be answered could be perceived as such.

Maybe being Christian isn't the problem, its how you talk to them.
Nobody said that being Xtian is the problem in the discussions I had mentioned to Mytical. Plus, I just ask them questions in an polite enough manner.


Nobody likes to be disrespected.
That was unnecessary...

[Andara Bledin]

Nobody is attacking their faith; I'm just curious why they can't accept the tangible.
I have no difficulties accepting the tangible. In fact, nothing about my faith contradicts anything that science has come up with, and yet I still get mocked merely for having faith at all.

And, by the way, Dandy,before you judge me, my face-to-face discussions with Xtians never get to the point of my saying that.
There's a lot in the way you posture yourself that can easily be seen as offensive, regardless of your intent.

Take, for example, your insistence on spelling it as Xtian instead of Christian. What is your reason for doing so?

It would be disingenuous, at best, to claim to not understand that a large number of Christians find it offensive, despite it's origins.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

I have no difficulties accepting the tangible. In fact, nothing about my faith contradicts anything that science has come up with, and yet I still get mocked merely for having faith at all.

Neither do I. I think it would be ridiculous to deny something that is evident because of your faith. I have never had what I believe disproved.

And by the way, Ipecac, why not? Are people on forums not worthy of the courtesy you'd give someone in person because you can't see our faces? I suppose its easy to forget that the people on computers are just as much people as theones in person.

[Ipecac Drano]

I have no difficulties accepting the tangible. In fact, nothing about my faith contradicts anything that science has come up with, and yet I still get mocked merely for having faith at all.
What I meant by that is finding comfort, solace, whatever, in the tangible.


There's a lot in the way you posture yourself that can easily be seen as offensive, regardless of your intent.
All I do is ask.


Take, for example, your insistence on spelling it as Xtian instead of Christian. What is your reason for doing so? It would be disingenuous, at best, to claim to not understand that a large number of Christians find it offensive, despite it's origins.
No, it wouldn't be disingenuous. You may know of a few who, for some reason, find it offensive, but I haven't encountered any who find it as such. In fact, I had a discussion with a Catholic monsignor who said it's been around since earlier times and had appeared in some sacred texts.

The X is the Christian shorthand for Christ and has been used by the Catholic Church for more than 17 centuries. In fact, the Roman Emperor Constantine (ca. 327 c.e.) used it on the shields of his legions to identify them as a Christian army.

By declaring that some may be offended "despite its origins", maybe they should try a little understanding toward the roots of that term instead of objecting to it regardless.

[Andara Bledin]

By declaring that some may be offended "despite its origins", maybe they should try a little understanding toward the roots of that term instead of objecting to it regardless.
By that defense, we shouldn't frown on the use of other terms that were once harmless and even more correct that are now viewed as unacceptable. And, yet, we know this to not be the case.

If you honestly want to be accurate, it should be written as Xian, since the 't' is redundant.

If you just want to be offensive with plausible deniability, however, either one works just as well.

^-.-^

[Skunkle]

The reason this was asked is that some people who use the spelling "Xtian" do so as a way of reminding others that they consider the Christian thing to be utter nonsense. A friend of mine who's gay does this, because of the extreme prejudice he's received over the years about his orientation. At the same time, the 'X' - as in "Xtian" and "Xmas" - is scientifically designated as the stand-in symbol for the unknown, and it has been pounced on as one of the signs of the "war against God" that some Christians - who, to a degree, I lump in with conspiracy theorists on this one - insist is being waged. Usually this comes up as the "war on Christmas".**

I don't believe science and faith necessarily contradict each other. For example, I believe there stands a good chance that evolution is very real AND God-created - He knew the world would change with time, and created creatures that would respond to it.

Ipecac, what questions do you ask Christians that they can't answer? "Where is your proof that God exists?" is one I can think of, and I have no tangible proof but, as stated above, that's what faith IS - a strong belief in something you cannot see, touch or handle and thus cannot prove with concrete evidence is there. And I don't think that's a bad thing, nor does it negate taking comfort in tangible things at the same time, our world and what we have around us that makes it livable while we're here. If the question is, "What will happen to you when you die?", my answer is, "I don't know. I have some ideas, but I won't know until it happens". I can only guess the reason they might defensive is that it is often put "Where is your proof that God exists?", with the onus on them to prove it visibly or else the asker will be certain that He doesn't exist - it's usually put to mean "If you can't prove He exists, He obviously doesn't, so you've just proved to me that your faith is bullshit. Cut that crap out and get real like me."

**The "war on Christmas" has been happening - and NOT happening - for a long time. Both sides think the other is moving against them. Bosses tell their employees to say "Happy Holidays" because they're afraid that non-Christians will be offended if you say "Merry Christmas". Usually, I see more outrage over "Happy Holidays" being un-Christian than I do about "Merry Christmas" being biased, and yet it goes on. It's very strange and very silly, and I try to stay out of the fray. But I do say "Merry Christmas" because I celebrate Christmas and because it's the holiday most often displayed in places where I'm likely to have reason to say anything of that sort.

[Rapscallion]

I can only guess the reason they might defensive is that it is often put "Where is your proof that God exists?", with the onus on them to prove it visibly or else the asker will be certain that He doesn't exist - it's usually put to mean "If you can't prove He exists, He obviously doesn't, so you've just proved to me that your faith is bullshit. Cut that crap out and get real like me."

Um, I don't know how to put this, but if a christian were able to actually prove the existence of your god, there'd be many more believers. As far as I'm concerned, nothing presented by any believer amounts to more than, "Because I say so."

Know who could persuade me that any god exists? The god him or herself.

Seriously. In the christian faith, we're talking about a being that apparently was able to appear in the form of a burning bush, manifest himself in human form as his own son and come back to life again after being killed, heal the sick, bring the world into existence, feed thousands on two occasions... The list of claims for that god are long and documented.

Right now, I'm not seeing any particular miracles from that particular claimed deity. All I see are philosophical arguments and debates over meanings of words, as well as a large number of splinter groups believing different things from the same words.

All done and said, I think what would be the best thing for christianity would be some sort of actual proof - sort of a unifying force to sort out the constant bickering between groups. So what if you have faith? That's all well and good for you. Have it if you like. Don't get too offended if people ask you to back your claims up.

Rapscallion

[Skunkle]

I don't get offended, so much as I wonder: Why do I *have* to prove to you that my God exists? I'm not going to tell you that you *need* to believe in my God - that is, in my opinion, not my job. Problem is, many Christians seem to be going on the order that it's their job to convert-by-force.

If NEED to make someone believe in something, I need to show them, proof. If I'm only wanting to believe in it myself, I shouldn't have to prove anything to anyone.

[Ipecac Drano]

By that defense, we shouldn't frown on the use of other terms that were once harmless and even more correct that are now viewed as unacceptable. And, yet, we know this to not be the case.
What's with this "all or nothing" stance?


If you honestly want to be accurate, it should be written as Xian, since the 't' is redundant.
They're both valid. Besides,"Xian" could be mixed up with "Xi'an", the capital of the Shaanxi province.
;)


If you just want to be offensive with plausible deniability, however, either one works just as well.
"Plausible deniability"! It's a tradition that's been around before you and Protestantism. Instead of learning about it, you choose to be offended?

Um, I don't know how to put this, but if a christian were able to actually prove the existence of your god, there'd be many more believers. As far as I'm concerned, nothing presented by any believer amounts to more than, "Because I say so."
If there was something that points to that (or any other) god's existence, I'll be in line for the sacraments.


Know who could persuade me that any god exists? The god him or herself.
I'd even settle for indirect evidence.


All done and said, I think what would be the best thing for christianity would be some sort of actual proof - sort of a unifying force to sort out the constant bickering between groups. So what if you have faith? That's all well and good for you. Have it if you like. Don't get too offended if people ask you to back your claims up.
Amen.

[Skunkle]

Any indirect evidence I can claim, someone else can claim has another cause, like simply mind-over-matter or personal will. A few years ago, I had a splitting toothache; I was having it fixed in a week or two, but at the time it had gotten so bad that over-the-counter pain meds had zero effect. I kept wishing it'd go away long enough for me to concentrate on one thing or another, but it kept going nonstop. One day, I was at a friend's house, and he had some very peaceful music I wanted to enjoy. Having exhausted anything else I could think of (besides prescription meds, and those tend to screw with me) I sat down for a moment and prayed that God would give me a short respite from it so I could do just one relaxing thing. And the pain vanished, in about ten seconds - and stayed gone until I woke up the next day.

I call that a good bit of evidence for ME. I know it won't convince non-believers of a thing; one can easily say it's mind-over-matter, but I counter that it stayed gone all day and I even remembered I had a bad tooth that should be hurting. Normally, if I get extremely distracted and I'm feeling under the weather (but I'm not in extreme pain) I can occasionally lose sight of the icky feeling while I'm concentrating, but the moment I pause, it rushes back; I don't think something even worse would just say gone even when I AM thinking about it. But, as said, not only is it easy to disbelieve, but a few hardcore non-believers will go out of their way to look for mundane explanations because they're determined to keep not believing. This isn't the only thing that's happened to me that gave my faith a little spark, but it's one I can explain easily.

Me, I don't really care if people don't believe; I do, and it's not my place to preach to anyone else. I figure if someone else wants to go to God, they will; I'm not here to push them at Him, nor am I here to push Him at them.

[Ipecac Drano]

Any indirect evidence I can claim, someone else can claim has another cause, like simply mind-over-matter or personal will.
Maybe, but like most skeptics, I tend to test the other explanation as well.


A few years ago, I had a splitting toothache; I was having it fixed in a week or two, but at the time it had gotten so bad that over-the-counter pain meds had zero effect. I kept wishing it'd go away long enough for me to concentrate on one thing or another, but it kept going nonstop. One day, I was at a friend's house, and he had some very peaceful music I wanted to enjoy. Having exhausted anything else I could think of (besides prescription meds, and those tend to screw with me) I sat down for a moment and prayed that God would give me a short respite from it so I could do just one relaxing thing. And the pain vanished, in about ten seconds - and stayed gone until I woke up the next day.

I call that a good bit of evidence for ME. I know it won't convince non-believers of a thing; one can easily say it's mind-over-matter, but I counter that it stayed gone all day and I even remembered I had a bad tooth that should be hurting. Normally, if I get extremely distracted and I'm feeling under the weather (but I'm not in extreme pain) I can occasionally lose sight of the icky feeling while I'm concentrating, but the moment I pause, it rushes back; I don't think something even worse would just say gone even when I AM thinking about it. But, as said, not only is it easy to disbelieve, but a few hardcore non-believers will go out of their way to look for mundane explanations because they're determined to keep not believing. This isn't the only thing that's happened to me that gave my faith a little spark, but it's one I can explain easily.
Which begs the question: how do you know that you should have put faith in God rather than in something that's just naturally psychosomatic? You didn't test it.

[Skunkle]

I didn't know. But I have no real way to test it. As stated, no matter what evidence I can claim in my favor, unless it shows someone concrete evidence they can touch and look at, it can be claimed to have other causes.

As stated: I cannot prove beyond all doubt that God exists. But I don't think I have to if I'm not pushing anyone else to believe. See what I'm saying? I don't have to prove it to anyone unless I'm trying to convert them, and I don't try to convert anyone.

[the_std]

They're both valid. Besides,"Xian" could be mixed up with "Xi'an", the capital of the Shaanxi province.

Really? This debate has devolved this far? The removal of one letter from that word means that, in a sub-forum marked "Religion", in a debate that is primarily about Christians, someone will read the word "Xian" and immediately think, "Oh, you mean a town in China with a population of two million people died for our sins on a cross? This all makes so much more sense!"

The majority of this debate has turned to head-bashing-on-rocks anyways, but this just takes the cake.

[protege]

Apologies, protege. That post I made was in NO way directed at you. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. I was just in a foul mood when I wrote that, and I could have worded it better.

Cool. Thoughts don't always come across well in text ;)

Anyway, I can't believe that this thread is still going on!

[Andara Bledin]

Instead of learning about it, you choose to be offended?
I have shown more than enough proof in this thread that I know the historical reasons for the use of that spelling and given no indication at any point that it actually bothers me.

I would suggest you apply a bit more scientific theory to your debate skills, because your hypothesis has no basis.

^-.-^

[Skunkle]

Enough arguing about terms, please. The only reason I see that anyone gets offended over the "x" spelling is because some extremely vocal anti-Christians use this spelling as a rather stupid attempt at offending religious types.

Anyone have further commentary on the Phelps group? What are they picketing now...? Nothing will surprise me with these guys, since their entire idea seems to be that every last single problem in the world - EVERY last one from the smallest issues to killer bombings, tsunamis, earthquakes and wars - are all because of the "increased acceptance" of homosexuality.

...as if we never had deadly wars, tsunamis, earthquakes, and fucked-up murders and killing in the past. The world was oh-so-rosy all the time back when, even in America, you could be thrown in prison, put into an institution or worse if the public found out you were gay, wasn't it? So, back when pretty much 99% of the world condemned homosexuality as vile, unnatural and worthy of serious punishment, what was to blame for all the tragedies back then? Some tiny pockets or schisms of people somewhere in the world got together with their boyfriends or lovers and had tea and played billiards once a week and discussed the latest fashions, and because of this God had mines collapse, ships sink, wars rage and children starve, just to teach those little groups existing somewhere a big ol' lesson?

Really, though, I'm sure Phelps would never answer this question. No one could get close enough to him to ask it.

[Gravekeeper]

...as if we never had deadly wars, tsunamis, earthquakes, and fucked-up murders and killing in the past.

I don't think logic has at any point ever factored into any decision made in the Phelp's household. I'm pretty sure even breakfast cereal is selected based on any percieved homosexuality.

You watch, Tucan Sam is next on the hit list.

[Ipecac Drano]

Really? This debate has devolved this far?
Only by your hand. I had put a little winking smiley after that bit just to show some levity. Don't be so pendantic.

I have shown more than enough proof in this thread that I know the historical reasons for the use of that spelling and given no indication at any point that it actually bothers me.
Clicky (http://www.fratching.com/showpost.php?p=73632&postcount=151)
No, you didn't say that it had offended you, but you really felt that you had to say something about it.


I would suggest you apply a bit more scientific theory to your debate skills, because your hypothesis has no basis.
That makes no sense.

[Skunkle]

Gravekeeper, I can't say it on CS but you're awesome, in so many ways. If there's one thing I *wouldn't* wish on the fine people of Nunavut, it's this guy.

Froot Loops? Gotta count Lucky Charms, too; a lucky charm is a tool of the devil, and besides, there are rainbows in them! Don't you know what rainbows mean??

I do wonder what these guys eat; I can't think of much they couldn't find some fault with!

Ipecac, maybe we can swing the topic back around to the Westboro peeps?

[Ipecac Drano]

Ipecac, maybe we can swing the topic back around to the Westboro peeps?
I will try, Skunkle, but it's not up to me.

[Gravekeeper]

Froot Loops? Gotta count Lucky Charms


No no, see, Lucky's gotta be in the country illegally. Taking jerbs away from other hard working American cereal mascots. People should eat a real American cereal like Frosted Flakes. Tony the Tiger is clearly a red blooded American heterosexual ( that just happens to like wearing an ascot ).


Ipecac, maybe we can swing the topic back around to the Westboro peeps?

Do we have too? Even talking about them leaves a vile taste in my mouth. The only upside is I live in Canada and we won't even let them cross the border.

[Skunkle]

That's one for you, Gravekeeper! See? Canada rocks!

There is NO WAY Tony the Tiger is straight. No way. The Trix rabbit has gotta be fruity too *grin*I actually DO wonder what they eat... My guess is, whatever Fred tells 'em to.

[Gravekeeper]

There is NO WAY Tony the Tiger is straight. No way. The Trix rabbit has gotta be fruity too *grin*I actually DO wonder what they eat... My guess is, whatever Fred tells 'em to.

That special where the reporter spent a couple weeks with them was depressing as all hell. He almost got one of the older daughters to come around a little and talk to him, but her parents cut her off at the pass at the last minute.

I'm pretty sure the youngest are kept in the cellar to keep them pure.

[Skunkle]

Oh yeah. To (probably mis)quote Kara from CS:

They must have a pretty fucked-up family tree. The kind that doesn't branch.

Seriously, are members only allowed to marry others who're already in the compound? I suppose ONLY those who are currently members are God's chosen, but that begs the question: in the Extreme-Calvinist belief system as I understand it (not the regular Calvinists who simply believe that salvation is optional but is only offered to the chosen few, rather than to everyone) the chosen saved can't fall - they're almost sinless. If so, what about Phelps' son, who WAS a member but managed to get out and is now elsewhere being gay and (hopefully) happy? Basically, if you're "chosen and forever saved", what happens if you stomp out and come out as gay? I highly doubt Fred hopes his son will come back... I could be wrong.

[blas87]

If they are only allowed to marry within the complex, that's almost like David Koresh and his weirdo family he had going on in Waco Texas, and we all know how that eventually ended.

[AdminAssistant]

I highly doubt Fred hopes his son will come back... I could be wrong.

Nope. Once you leave the Phelps clan, you're dead to them. I saw a thing with another WBC family whose daughter had left, and they were all, "No we don't wanna see her, she's going to hell!! Let her rot there!"

Wonderful people. I do wish they'd leave this state though. I'm tired of the traffic we have to deal with when they come visit, and as the state's only "liberal" town with a large college presence they come here a. LOT.

[Andara Bledin]

No, you didn't say that it had offended you, but you really felt that you had to say something about it.
The discussion had meandered to a point where it was mentioned that the other side was defensive to you. I gave you a likely reason for such.

The original quote and reply:

And, by the way, Dandy,before you judge me, my face-to-face discussions with Xtians never get to the point of my saying that.
There's a lot in the way you posture yourself that can easily be seen as offensive, regardless of your intent.

Take, for example, your insistence on spelling it as Xtian instead of Christian. What is your reason for doing so?
------------

By the way, nice deflection by turning the topic to me. Why did you not answer the question?

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

There's a lot in the way you posture yourself that can easily be seen as offensive, regardless of your intent.
I can see how it could be misperceived.


Take, for example, your insistence on spelling it as Xtian instead of Christian. What is your reason for doing so?
I don't insist; I do it out of convenience.


By the way, nice deflection by turning the topic to me. Why did you not answer the question?
What was the question?

[Boozy]

We've had enough discussion about our feelings regarding each other's debating style.

If anyone is genuinely getting offended by someone's debating syle, put that person on your ignore list. If you're getting offended in general, just being here at Fratching, you need to ask yourself if this is the forum for you.

I don't want to see any more comments about someone's debating style in this thread. Get back on topic, please.

[rdp78]

Well, apparently the Supreme Court of the United States agrees that Westboro have the right to protest funerals. Only one justice (yes, I was quite surprised considering some are quite liberal) voted against them. The decision was today or, maybe yesterday and a lot a people are not happy especially the man who brought the suite against them after they protested his son's military funeral. Here is a link to the USA Today article about it Westboro article (http://http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/2011-03-02-westboro-first-amendment_N.htm?csp=24).

Anyway does any one see the irony that they are protesting military funerals because of us accepting homosexuality, yet the military doesn't allow gays and lesbians to serve openly yet. I know it's been recently since Congress has made it okay for homosexuals to serve openly but of course, that's when the Democrats were charged. I mean I wonder if the Westboro group knows about this since the debate over "Don't ask, don't tell" has been in the news these past few months.

[draco664]

Anyway does any one see the irony

Everyone except the Phelps clan, who maintain an irony-free zone around their heads at all times.

[rdp78]

Everyone except the Phelps clan, who maintain an irony-free zone around their heads at all times.

:D Well, they do live in their own little world in a way and well, they think its the same one everyone lives in.

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

Phelps and his whelps have about as much as to do with religion as they do rational thinking. Which is nothing.

[MadMike]

Well, I think I almost put my fist thru the monitor just now.

A few days ago, there was a fire (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/03/as_firetrucks_move_out_friends.html) not far from where I grew up. Seven of the family's eight children died in it.

Then I got on the computer and found out that this so-called church plans to protest (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/03/westboro_baptist_church_plans.html) at the funeral. OK, we already knew that they have no respect for our soldiers, who are risking their lives on a daily basis for their country, but a group of innocent children? Have they no shame?

According to the latest article, they've planned on protesting in that area before but never did. I'm not surprised. It's a rural area, where most people have guns, and I wouldn't be surprised (or saddened) if they got shot.

[Rageaholic]

According to the latest article, they've planned on protesting in that area before but never did. I'm not surprised. It's a rural area, where most people have guns, and I wouldn't be surprised (or saddened) if they got shot.

I'm surprised him or his croneys haven't been shot at yet. I've seen a video where they got attacked by a mob and cops had to break up the fight, but with people like Bill O'reilly getting death threats for just being opinionated jerks (as opposed to complete monsters like Phelps), I'm surprised they're not in witness protection. Then again, who would want to be assigned to protect those assholes? :rolleyes:

[Andara Bledin]

For those who haven't heard it yet, here's a snippet of something the daughter and spokeswoman was reported to have said recently:

Shirley Phelps-Roper, the church spokeswoman, says the members want God to punish Americans for tolerating homosexuality. They picket funerals to make people angry, she says: They want people to reject God and be condemned to hell.

"Our job is laid out," she says, in comments sprinkled with biblical references. "We are supposed to blind their eyes, stop up their ears and harden their hearts so that they cannot see, hear or understand, and be converted and receive salvation."

Yeah.... lovely people. 9.9

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

Isn't that... Like, the absolute opposite of what the Bible says?

[Kaylyn]

Isn't that... Like, the absolute opposite of what the Bible says?

Oh, it is. But they're only concerned for their own salvation, so they're interpreting things in the way that basically says if they turn everyone away, they'll be the only ones in heaven. Listening to them absolutely boggles my mind, as an ex-Christian, I remember my Bible, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they choose to be such dicks about it. It's a cult, basically; they're picking and choosing what they like and cutting out the rest. I guarantee you'll never hear them preaching, "turn the other cheek," "do unto others," etc. They choose to honor the fire-and-brimstone God, not the loving God most Christians choose to follow.

[Hyena Dandy]

an ex-Christian, I remember my Bible, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they choose to be such dicks about it.

As a current Christian, I also remember the bible.

A lot of Evangelicals are bad, but this is so opposite of Christianity that they've, like, come from a mirror universe.

The Bible is quite big on spreading the word of God, almost as big as it is on charity an' stuff. Even a LITERAL (not even just 'literal') reading would get that.

[Mytical]

More trivia time? Yay! It's probably the 144,000 (I forget if it is per 'tribe' or total) bit that have them all in a tizzy...not wanting others to 'edge them out'. Like any self respecting deity would have them anyhow. *shrugs*


Trivia..when it absolutely has to be random, trust the Mytical brand.

[Rageaholic]

Oh, it is. But they're only concerned for their own salvation, so they're interpreting things in the way that basically says if they turn everyone away, they'll be the only ones in heaven. Listening to them absolutely boggles my mind, as an ex-Christian, I remember my Bible, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they choose to be such dicks about it. It's a cult, basically; they're picking and choosing what they like and cutting out the rest. I guarantee you'll never hear them preaching, "turn the other cheek," "do unto others," etc. They choose to honor the fire-and-brimstone God, not the loving God most Christians choose to follow.

I know, I remember when I was at a phase where I was absolutely terrified at the thought of going to hell. I couldn't imagine wishing damnation on even the worst of humanity. Yet according to Christian beliefs, they are deliberatly trying to damn people to hell. They might as well say "We're doing the devils work muwahahahahahahaha!".

No wonder even the fundies hate these guys so much.

[Sarah Valentine]

I'm surprised they're not in witness protection. Then again, who would want to be assigned to protect those assholes?

I'm sure if that were the case then the people in charge of protecting them would all take a day off and look the other way to make sure that they all die, I know I would.

[Mytical]

This is a bit long, a lot of ranting..just to warn everybody. I also want to apologize up front to any Christians out there, because I know not every one of them are the same. I just need to rant a bit.

I am a very live and let live person. I believe religion is a personal thing, between whoever and their deity of choice. I personally don't care if you worship Jimbobfurlybob the God of Disco Pants. Though I would love to understand WHY you would do so, and the beliefs that you have.

My problem is when people try to force it down my throat. I enjoy debating different philosophies, but there is a point when we have to agree to disagree..and leave it at that.

Yesterday I got into a rather..heated debate with somebody who might as well belong to the Phelps group. I let them know exactly what I thought of them, and of course they shared their views to me. Which is everybody's right, even if I disagree with them. That was not enough however.

As I decided to walk away, knowing that a discussion is impossible, they started following me and spewing their hate. Gays, non-christians (though I hesitate to use that word..as what their idea of christians are is .. not mine), foreigners, soldiers..etc. I sort of broke down, and since I always say exactly what is on my mind..I let them know..but I did it most certainly in the wrong way.

I informed them, that I had no interest in a god that was not only a Hypocrite, but a biggot. How any deity that says "Everybody is equal" then turns around and says "But this person, this group, and such" can go jump in a firey lake for all I care. My Zen was gone, I got nose to nose with them.

I asked how any self respecting deity could say "Love one another" and then turn around and say "But not like that, or not those people" Because if they do either they have psychological problems or they are just a 'b' word or <other> 'b' word, and isn't worth either my respect OR my faith. I let them know exactly where they could .. put their god..and left them with their mouth hanging open..and turning a little pale.

The problem is, I know I went a little too far. I do respect most Christians, and most people of any faith. I had even went into my stage one of anger .. shaking. Which is NOT a good thing, because had they pressed the issue..I honestly don't know what would have happened.

I am a supporter of free speech, but it is very hard to respect somebody who shows no respect for anybody or anything. I will try my hardest to understand anybody's view points, but I guess I fail when it comes to this. I just haven't the patience to do so. Why do people have so much hate, and why can it be so contagious. Because I can honestly say, that I felt loathing toward that person, so much so that I don't think even my loathing for those who harm children could match it. I am a lesser person because of that loathing, a step closer to that which I abhor.

Edit : I admit is has been a long time since I could be called a Christian..but are not we all supposed to be created equal? Or is that just wishful thinking?

[rdp78]

:eek:Wow, Mytical, that's tough situation to be in and I don't really know how I would handle it if was dealing with that type of person. Sometimes its easy to walk away but when they start following you then it's a different story. The good thing is it didn't come to violence and nobody was physically hurt but emotional torn I'm assuming.

Anyway on a ligther note, I found a list of 30 anti-WBC signs and some I think are pretty funny. Here is a the link (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-3o-best-anti-westboro-baptist-church-protest-s) to it and I am sure most of them will make you go lol. Oh, check out the responses to the list and some people posted pics of other anti-WBC signs which are just hilirous (sp?).

[JustaCashier]

Mytical, I don't think you went too far at all.

Your opinion on religion is pretty much the same as mine, and while I'm very tolerant of people believing what they wish, it goes too far when they proselytize, or worse, have hateful and harmful beliefs, like the beliefs of the Phelps Klan, or this person you let loose on.

Frankly, as a self admitted wuss that doesn't like confrontation, I thank you for standing up to this person. I don't know if I would have had the balls to do so.

Finally, I truly hope you are not afraid you offended this person in any way. If you are, then you should be ashamed of yourself! ;)

Mike

[MadMike]

Thankfully, they were a no-show. (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/03/westboro_baptist_church_fails.html) As the paper pointed out, they wouldn't have had much room to protest anyway. The area around the church is all private property, and most of the owners put up "No Trespassing" signs and marked it off with tape. The protestors would have had to stand in the road. Wouldn't it be funny if they got hit by a log truck? OK, I didn't just say that...

My son gave me a bit of disturbing news, which may not even be in the paper. His girlfriend lives in that area, and she told him the school was put on lockdown because the so-called church group threatened to come to the school if they couldn't get to the funeral. Not sure why they locked the school down, since that group isn't known for violence. But it makes me sick that they were thinking of coming to my old high school.

[Mytical]

Justacashier I honestly don't care if I hurt that douches feelings, but I do respect what (in my eyes) are real christians. The ones like the group that runs the 'soup kitchen' in my neighborhood. Who welcome everybody, and openly speak out against the so called preaching of the WBC. Everybody is a 'brother' or 'sister' regardless of race, sexual orientation, or even religious affiliation..and are treated as such. Muslims will be greeted with a hearty handshake and a slap on the back (or similar) just as the next person would be.

I've had some very heated debates with them, but not once have they treated me with anything but respect (which is why they get shown a little extra respect :p). Its those types of people who I would not want them to think less of me because of how I reacted. Because respect is earned, not given.

[JustaCashier]

I'm with ya there, Mytical.

As a lifelong agnostic, leaning towards atheist, one of the people of all time I have the most respect for is Mother Teresa. She lived a life of poverty, and gave of herself that lived in the poorest of conditions.

Now I'm not saying that everyone with some, (or no) religious affiliation should live such a life, but to me what she did was incredibly unselfish.

I just wanted to make sure you didn't feel bad about possibly offending some jerk that richly deserved it! :p

Mike

[AdminAssistant]

As a lifelong agnostic, leaning towards atheist, one of the people of all time I have the most respect for is Mother Teresa.

I don't want to de-rail the thread too badly, but I'll just say that you really, really shouldn't.

[Mishi]

@Mytical - As a Christian, I'd like to say thanks for sticking up to that idiot. It's people like him/her that give the rest of us a bad name. Actually, I think it's quite embarassing for the whole religion that I frequently get told "Oh, I thought you were Wiccan/pagan... You're much too nice to be a Christian!"

The most annoying thing I've found to say to a 'Christian' bigot is to compliment them on the lovely Christ-like attitude they're displaying, in a very sickly-sweet sarcastic tone.

[Andara Bledin]

The most annoying thing I've found to say to a 'Christian' bigot is to compliment them on the lovely Christ-like attitude they're displaying, in a very sickly-sweet sarcastic tone.
Yeah. As another Christian whose often mistaken for something else (agnostic or wiccan, depending, because of people like that), I like to point out how decidedly un-Christlike they're being. Usually leaves them gaping, fishmouthed. Either that, or they go into a screaming fit because they hate someone else knowing enough to point out their bullshit.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

I admit is has been a long time since I could be called a Christian..but are not we all supposed to be created equal? Or is that just wishful thinking?It depends on which scripture you are reading from. Parts of the Bible say to love one another and other parts say to attack followers of other religions.

Even when Xtianity was first being formulated by Paul, there were many sects competing against each other to be the Xtian faith; and Paul had written some derogatory things about them.

[Rapscallion]

http://thehayride.com/2011/04/westboro-baptist-church-goes-to-mississippi-and-loses/

Heartwarming.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

You know, while I'm not sure how I feel about the methods, I can't help but be glad the bastards didn't get to have their little hate-in.

^-.-^

[Greenday]

http://thehayride.com/2011/04/westboro-baptist-church-goes-to-mississippi-and-loses/

Heartwarming.

Rapscallion

That's cool. Let's not give props to where you first saw the article.

Anyway, I don't see any issues with anything from the article. That's one gem of a town. I hope everyone takes notes and stick it to those jackasses.

[Rapscallion]

That's cool. Let's not give props to where you first saw the article.

Linked on FB.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

LOL, I have family in Brandon, MS. :D

[Hyena Dandy]

Problem is that's exactly what they want people to do. >_> They're TRYING to get you to harass them. Because, unfortunately, that is illegal.

[Rapscallion]

Aye, but it's only illegal when the law isn't actively engaged against them.

It does set a dangerous precedent, but against that set of wankers I don't have a problem.

Rapscallion

[XCashier]

http://thehayride.com/2011/04/westboro-baptist-church-goes-to-mississippi-and-loses/

Heartwarming.

Rapscallion
I loved that bit where the pickups were parked behind the WBC's cars, blocking them in. Oh, the tow trucks are running a bit late, may be some time before you can get your car freed. What a pity. :devil:

Not a good idea to beat up that loudmouth jerk; that's a good way to end up in jail, no matter how good your intentions. But the pickup parking hurt nobody. And I like the other counterprotests like the one at ComicCon; a good dose of ridicule is what the WBC deserves. Too bad it flies at Warp Ten over their heads.

[Greenday]

Not a good idea to beat up that loudmouth jerk; that's a good way to end up in jail, no matter how good your intentions. But the pickup parking hurt nobody. And I like the other counterprotests like the one at ComicCon; a good dose of ridicule is what the WBC deserves. Too bad it flies at Warp Ten over their heads.

No witnesses saw anyone do it. Must have done it to himself.

[fireheart17]

Problem is that's exactly what they want people to do. >_> They're TRYING to get you to harass them. Because, unfortunately, that is illegal.

Wasn't there a law passed that in the most basic form, gave the protesters the right to hold their little protests as much as the WBC group did? Or am I way off base? :confused:

And the damn article isn't loading >_<

[Rapscallion]

There was, and it's the amendment dealing with free speech. Not sure about any other ones, but there was talk about some sort of 'don't protest within X range of funerals'. I don't think it got anywhere. I could be wrong.

However, what I can see of this is a cross-party, grassroots democracy in action. Freedom of speech is a fine and noble ideal, but it's being abused by that set of wankers.

About the only value WBC have is in making me look good.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

Aye, but it's only illegal when the law isn't actively engaged against them.

It does set a dangerous precedent, but against that set of wankers I don't have a problem.
If you specifically target people you know to be part of the WBC, then you can be gone after for religious discrimination.

If, however, you specifically target people who are from Kansas, and all people who are from Kansas, then you're just being a garden-variety bigot going after people belonging to a non-protected status. :devil:

^-.-^

[Racket_Man]

the link says it all

WBBC to protest at Betty Ford's Funeral because she was a divorcee and a foricator (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/westboro-baptist-betty-ford_n_894988.html?icid=main%7Chp-desktop%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%7C218652)

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

I guess that in the eyes of the WBBC that my first wife is just like Betty Ford since she is the one who filed for the divorce.

[fireheart17]

the link says it all

WBBC to protest at Betty Ford's Funeral because she was a divorcee and a foricator (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/westboro-baptist-betty-ford_n_894988.html?icid=main%7Chp-desktop%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%7C218652)

uhhh....what? *brain escapes out of my head*

*chases brain down and stuffs it back in my head* Hey I need that you know! >.>

Also I presume you mean FORNICATOR, not foricator.

[Andara Bledin]

They can't wait for some newsworthy event to go sully with their filth and corruption.

^-.-^

[Racket_Man]

uhhh....what? *brain escapes out of my head*

*chases brain down and stuffs it back in my head* Hey I need that you know! >.>

Also I presume you mean FORNICATOR, not foricator.

yeah I did but with all of the cold meds in me (summer flu for the last 72 hours) my fingers just did not work right

[Skunkle]

Those anti-protest signs were really, really funny. Though were I to protest their protests, my sign would simply say, "Jesus died for our sins. EVERYONE'S sins. God loves you."

And yeah, they totally want to incite violence against them. (1) Lawsuits = funding. (2) It makes them look/feel like martyrs. (3) It gets them publicity. (4) They'll think others will see the anti-protesters as the real bad guys. The people who blocked their cars in get my vote for best anti-protest, and if those with the power to bring tow trucks (or the tow truck drivers/companies) took their sweet time getting said cars towed, kudos to them, too. Leave 'em there all day. Let the onus be on the WBC to get angry enough to smash some windows or slash some tires.

[protege]

Also I presume you mean FORNICATOR, not foricator.

Interesting that they're so caught up on one's sexual habits...especially since Shirley Phelps-Roper...supposedly has an illegitimate child. Hypocrite much? Also, is it just me, or is there some serious inbreeding going on in that group?

[fireheart17]

Interesting that they're so caught up on one's sexual habits...especially since Shirley Phelps-Roper...supposedly has an illegitimate child. Hypocrite much? Also, is it just me, or is there some serious inbreeding going on in that group?

Ah but remember....if its from the WBC its OK because they're Gods people and they can do whatever the heck they want. :D

[Andara Bledin]

Ah but remember....if its from the WBC its OK because they're Gods people and they can do whatever the heck they want. :D
Don't laugh. They honestly believe that. To them, the saved are already saved no matter what they do and the damned are already damned, no matter what they do.

Which kind of goes against about half of the Bible, but hey, who are we to quibble with the Chosen... :rolleyes:

^-.-^

[rdp78]

Interesting that they're so caught up on one's sexual habits...especially since Shirley Phelps-Roper...supposedly has an illegitimate child. Hypocrite much? Also, is it just me, or is there some serious inbreeding going on in that group?

:lol: Well, I doubt many people would want Fred Phelps to be their in-law or would want any association with this group (I'm not going to call them a church since they aren't doing anything religious just being a bunch of dickheads). It doesn't surprise me if they are inbreeding considered I have come to conclusion that they are on some kind of drugs which explains why they haven't considered some of their crazy ideas (yep, you just have to look at their signs to realize that).

[Rageaholic]

Don't laugh. They honestly believe that. To them, the saved are already saved no matter what they do and the damned are already damned, no matter what they do.

Which kind of goes against about half of the Bible, but hey, who are we to quibble with the Chosen... :rolleyes:

^-.-^

Ah Calvinism, what a lovely belief system. :rolleyes:

[GameGirl]

As long as I live I will never understand these people.

I am not overly religious in any way but I do believe in God and I like to think of myself as a good Christian. The God I believe in doesn't hate anyone, He loves all of us equally, regardless of our color or creed. I was always taught to treat others the way I would want to be treated and that is how I try to live my life. I'm not perfect, but I try to be a good person.

This "church" is nothing more than a hate group. They are interpreting the Bible in a way that satisfies their agenda (not sure what their agenda is, perhaps they think all homosexuality will "go away" if they scream about it enough? and I have no clue why they think protesting at a soldier's funeral is even remotely a good idea). These people make me sick and they make me ashamed of Christianity. This is not Christianity, this is sheer hateful lunacy.

[smileyeagle1021]

a good Christian. The God I believe in doesn't hate anyone, He loves all of us equally, regardless of our color or creed..

what Bible did you read?
No seriously.
Because the one I read included lots of stuff about destroying cities and nations for being different.
And entire book of things for which you should be put to death and as a good christian you should put others to death for.
Sadly, the WBC is doing EXACTLY what the God of the Bible would command us to do.
Hell, even the next in line to be the prophet and seer for the LDS church has said it is perfectly acceptable to use violence against homosexuals (his exact words on the topic were "would it be appropriate for me as a general authority to do it, perhaps not, but someone has to")

[GameGirl]

what Bible did you read?
No seriously.
Because the one I read included lots of stuff about destroying cities and nations for being different.
And entire book of things for which you should be put to death and as a good christian you should put others to death for.
Sadly, the WBC is doing EXACTLY what the God of the Bible would command us to do.
Hell, even the next in line to be the prophet and seer for the LDS church has said it is perfectly acceptable to use violence against homosexuals (his exact words on the topic were "would it be appropriate for me as a general authority to do it, perhaps not, but someone has to")

I read the same Bible you probably do, it's just that I look at it differently.

[smileyeagle1021]

I don't see how you read it differently, there isn't much room for interpretation.
Leviticus, if a man lies with a man as a man lies with a woman, surely he must be put to death and his blood be upon him.
Seems pretty black and white on what God has commanded.

there have been three gay men attacked by mobs quoting among other things that verse while beating them in the last month, so please spare me the "god doesn't condone violence" bullshit. I have to arm myself to walk down the street safely, you have to listen to me bitch, I feel so sorry for you poor oppressed Christians who don't even know your own damned book well enough to know you aren't following it.

[Kheldarson]

There's lots of room for interpretation, smiley, and I think that's your issue. You assume that all Christians are Bible literalists. We're not.

Leviticus says we should kill a man for lying with another man? That's nice. Christ said he came to fulfill the law and replace it with one based off love. Further, Leviticus itself, in a historical context, was a survival guide for the Jews. We aren't Jewish so why should we follow it?

You can't take a book that floats between being a history, metaphor, law book, and prophecy and not look at context. Especially when it's God's word interpreted by a human mind.

And that's the problem with Fred Phelps and his ilk. They don't look at context. And context is always everything.

[protege]

You can't take a book that floats between being a history, metaphor, law book, and prophecy and not look at context. Especially when it's God's word interpreted by a human mind.

...and there is the problem. That book has been translated probably thousands of times over the centuries. How do we know that some racist (or homophobic) asshole didn't do some 'creative editing' to add their own hatreds? For example, the KJV has been used by various hate groups to justify all sorts of nasty things.

[FormerCallingCardRep]

Smiley, If you read Colossians 2:14 it tells us that Christ took the old law and nailed it to his cross.

[Kheldarson]

...and there is the problem. That book has been translated probably thousands of times over the centuries. How do we know that some racist (or homophobic) asshole didn't do some 'creative editing' to add their own hatreds? For example, the KJV has been used by various hate groups to justify all sorts of nasty things.

Part of why I don't like the KJV translation. I usually use the New St. Joseph. But yeah, we don't know. That's why translators constantly go back. That's why Church doctrine changes (albeit slowly) because new translations are available, and thus a better understanding. Or new context is given because we understand something of the time period better to give phrases new meaning.

Like I said, context is everything with the Bible. To ignore the context is to tread on dangerous grounds.

[AdminAssistant]

Like I said, context is everything with the Bible. To ignore the context is to tread on dangerous grounds.

Or it's all made up to serve various political purposes throughout history.

[smileyeagle1021]

Smiley, If you read Colossians 2:14 it tells us that Christ took the old law and nailed it to his cross.

And then Romans created the new law, and guess what is in it...
...
Oh yeah.

eta-
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

Yup, there it is in the New Testament after Christ has fulfilled the old law, God still considers same sex attraction to be vile.

[FormerCallingCardRep]

Rome is not the authority, Christ is. Christ taught do unto others as you would have them do unto you - Luke 6:31

[Kheldarson]

Frankly, Paul (who wrote Romans) was a bit of an ass when it came to sex anyway.

And Admin, again, political motivation = context. You have to know the motive for the writing of the particular book of the Bible to understand it's passages. Even if it's politics.

[AdminAssistant]

If it's politics, then it's history. Which makes for an interesting read, and provides insight into Roman civilization in the 1st and 2nd centuries C.E. But it's not something to base your life around.

Saying Paul was 'a bit of an ass' might be the biggest understatement in the world.

[Kheldarson]

Half of the Old Testament is the Jewish history. It tells how they lived and how they're supposed to live. For them, it's something to base their life around. If we've decided that there's some worth in their lifestyle and in the preachings of a man who stepped away slightly from that lifestyle to make it gentler, what's wrong with that?

But yes, saying Paul was a bit of an ass is an understatement. Paul had...issues.

[KabeRinnaul]

Yup, there it is in the New Testament after Christ has fulfilled the old law, God still considers same sex attraction to be vile.

There is an argument that what Paul condemns in 1 Romans 1:26-27 is not homosexuality itself, but rather acts committed in the name of hedonism, pagan ritual, or prostitution.

You may find it interesting. (http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/romans_1_21.html)

[SuperNat]

That doco was 'The Most Hated Family In America', right? I never wanted to throw something hard at the tv so much in my life watching that..

[bara]

I know ive said it before.. but the very best thing to do about people like them is to give them no attenion at all.

Personnaly, Im still waiting for them to protest at a hells angel funeral.

[protege]

Anyone heard the latest (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/westboro-baptist-church-uses-iphone-to-announce-steve-jobs-funeral-protest/2011/10/06/gIQAJqBjPL_blog.htm) on these freaks? Pay attention to the part about how head freak Shirley....was using her iPhone to post comments on Twitter. Of course, she claims that the iPhone was invented by God, and *not* Jobs.

[Gravekeeper]

Of course, she claims that the iPhone was invented by God, and *not* Jobs.

Yes, well, she's so far down the rabbit hole the God she look's up too is probably Alice's knickers.

[Panacea]

Yes, well, she's so far down the rabbit hole the God she look's up too is probably Alice's knickers.

:spew: Oh, man. Almost broke Rule #1 there . . . .

[smileyeagle1021]

Yes, well, she's so far down the rabbit hole the God she look's up too is probably Alice's knickers.

damnit, I looked at this whiled bored at class... thank God the professor was attempting to make a joke when I read it, now he just thinks I'm a brown noser and not a slacker :angel:

[Hyena Dandy]

Anyone heard the latest (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/westboro-baptist-church-uses-iphone-to-announce-steve-jobs-funeral-protest/2011/10/06/gIQAJqBjPL_blog.htm) on these freaks? Pay attention to the part about how head freak Shirley....was using her iPhone to post comments on Twitter. Of course, she claims that the iPhone was invented by God, and *not* Jobs.

That's... That's...

My brain... Is full of fuck...

I mean, even creationism makes sense compared to "God created the iPhone". At the very least, you can say the evolution of the human species is not something that you have witnessed in your lifetime.

And while Jobs may not have personally invented it, you can still see that it was invented by a company he ran. In your lifetime, unless you're like six or something.

That is STUPID. I mean, not even bad theology or bad humanity its just plain STUPID.

[Ipecac Drano]

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1317957954023_6038943.png
;)

[XCashier]

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1317957954023_6038943.png
;)
I like that! :D

When Fred Phelps dies, I think I'll ask the local radio station to dedicate this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNm7dKjXIYo) to him. :devil:

[Ipecac Drano]

I like that! :D

When Fred Phelps dies, I think I'll ask the local radio station to dedicate this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNm7dKjXIYo) to him. :devil:
Niiiiiiiice...
:devil:

[lupo pazzesco]

ok, my boyfriend just showed this link to me. Westboro Church getting embarrassed in Vegas. It's AWESOME.


Youtube Vid NSFW!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isY1wsGcH9k&feature=player_embedded#!)


Ok, this guy is fantastic, he's throwing their own words in their faces and they keep trying to defend but fail. They fail HARD. It's so wonderful, I'm STILL giggling.

:lol: