Kevorkian Released from Prison

[ArenaBoy]

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/68660.html

He says that he will never again do what he did but I have some doubts in my mind. The guy still creeps me out. Thoughts anyone?

Interesting tidbit: I drove by his prison many times, HUGE HUGE building.

[Rapscallion]

Depends. Did he kill people who asked for an assisted death due to their painful illness? If se, then he could get a job in Sweden where this is legal as long as two doctors confirm the diagnosis (working from memory here, and they use an overdose of barbituates, which is apparently painless). I know of this because we occasionally get stories about people who fly out to never return.

Did he take it upon himself to kill those who weren;t asking for it? If so, let him rot inside.

I'm a touch unclear on the details.

Rapscallion

[Dreamstalker]

As far as I'm aware, it was the former (assisted suicide basically). I'm of the stance that if a terminal patient (no possible hope of treatment/recovery and they are in constant pain) is lucid enough to both make the decision for themselves and understand the impact, that request should be honored.

[rahmota]

From all I remember about Doc Kevorkian it was all assisted suicides where he provided the morphine OD (I think it was mrophine or one similar) drip or a gas and the person actually pressed the plunger themselves while he stood by and confirmed the situation. So no technically he himself did not murder anyone. He provided the means for persons to remove their own lives.

Which i will state I am in perfect agreement with. I like the way Sweden has it set up. If two doctors agree that you are on the way out and it is going to be an unpleasant way to go (Like there really is a pleasant way to go) and you are comfortable with the concept of suicide and the ramifications on all the various levels then you should have the right to do so. I mean after all it is your life and you should have the right to control at least that one aspect of it.

[AFPheonix]

I am grateful that I'm in the only state that allows doctor-assisted suicide. If it's a procedure that I'd allow my dog to have if it's no longer happy or comfortable living, why wouldn't I extend that same favor to a human being?
I am of the opinion that living no matter what is not always the best option.

If my dad had asked for help to die in his last days, I'd have done it. Thank god he was fortunate enough to go really quickly when it was time. I have patients who get stuff from my pharmacy who are on hospice care, and sometimes, the amount of pain medications that they have to use to stay remotely comfortable is absolutely staggering.

[DesignFox]

I don't understand why we will put our pets down when they are suffering with no hope of recovery, yet we will force a fellow human being to wallow in misery.

I believe Dr. Kevorkian is innocent. He merely provided people who had no hope with a way out.

Seriously- I've told my family, my friends and my boyfriend this- if I am in a bed, shitting myself, drooling, barely conscious, can't do a damn thing for myself...put me the fuck down! I don't want to be remembered as a lump in a hospital bed (or strapped in a wheelchair cooing to myself in a corner for that matter).

Honestly, it's just horrible that we drain the resources of ourselves and our hospitals caring for people who are merely existing (i.e. complete vegetable)- or who are in so much pain that even though they are lucid- they can't get out of bed and don't care to be living any longer! Put these people out of their misery if that is what they so choose...or if two doctors deem that this person is in an irrevocable coma! Let us use our time, energy, and resources to care for those who WANT to live, and who CAN recover! What is so wrong with that?

Honestly, anyone who is hooked up to tubes and machines wouldn't be living if it weren't FOR those machines. If they have no brain function, and can't complete any biological function on their own, and have no hope of regaining either, what the hell is the point of keeping the heart beating? Let them go...

this subject touches a nerve with me....:mad:

[protege]

Some of you know that I lost my grandfather to cancer in 2001. He suffered through it for months before the end. He got sick shortly before 9/11, and could no longer take care of himself. Most of the time, he was in extreme pain, and had to have someone help him out of bed, get dressed, and just to walk the 10 feet from his bedroom into his livingroom. We had no idea what was happening to him...but when some tests were being run, his doctors found that he had bladder cancer. About a month later, he had a stroke, and my grandmother could no longer take care of him. By the, the cancer was overrunning his body, he was in extreme pain, and probably wasn't going to get better. Around Thanksgiving that year, he kept getting worse. His mind was gone, he couldn't speak at all. By Christmas, he was gone :(

As much as my family loved him, it was difficult to see him go through that...and know that we couldn't do a damn thing about it. Grandpa wasn't a pussy by *any* (this was a guy built like a Mack truck, and didn't take shit from anyone) means, but that pain must have been unbearable. Yet, I don't remember him shedding any tears from it--he knew what was coming, and accepted it.

I did though, get one last smile from him before he died--20 years previously, he'd given me a model locomotive--he was a salesman for Johnson Wax, and they gave out train sets to their salesmen one year--and I still had it. Anyway, when I showed that to him, and said that he gave it to me, his eyes lit up. A week later, he was gone.

If the option of ending his life would have been there, as much as it would have pained us, I would have rather seen that happen, simply to end his suffering. I think making his pain go away, and know that he was at peace would have been worth it.

[Greenday]

Personally, I have no opinion on what he did. I mean, if a person is going to be spending hundreds of dollars a month, to keep themself living for the next ten years, in pain, why should they be forced to go through all that?

I'm sure he really is done with assisted suicides. At his age, he probably doesn't have TOO much time left and he probably wants to live it in peace, not controversy.

[ditchdj]

When I saw my brother die from cirrhosis I vowed that I WILL put a bullet in myself if I was to get something terminal like that and die on MY OWN terms. For one, my immediate ones dont deserve to by put through something like that. Second, I would NEVER give ANY of my ex's and enemies in life the sheer, eternal satisfaction of knowing that I died a slow, agonizing death. THAT would be a great please to them that I WILL deny them.

[katie kaboom]

I'm sure he really is done with assisted suicides. At his age, he probably doesn't have TOO much time left and he probably wants to live it in peace, not controversy.

I know they said he wasn't going to try and perform the assisted suicides anymore, but he still plans on being an advocate for it. I think it's appaling that he went to jail at all, simply for helping others end their suffering. Sorry but as far as i'm concerned if someone is terminally ill and they want to end their life, they have every right to do so, and no one should have the right to interfere and tell them they can't.

[Rubystars]

Example: A grandma has Alzheimer's really badly and even when put in the nursing home she wanders around and gets into other people's things, and doesn't remember her family, screaming that her children are not her son or daughter. She accuses her caregivers of stealing from her, etc.

I'm afraid that one day someone like her could be made a victim and murdered against their will just because they're difficult to care for. The family and/or government could be spending a lot of money and decide that her life just isn't worth the cost. They could make a decision FOR HER which would decide that her life wasn't worth living, even if her subjective experience is one of being relatively content. She might enjoy her meals, etc.

Any elder who's worked and contributed to society during their life deserves to be taken care of when they can't care for themselves.

Another example:

Grandma has a bank account for 10,000, which is being drained by her need for expensive medications. Her kids want to inherit that money before it all evaporates. Maybe Grandma is a person who's willing to please and doesn't want to be a burden on anyone, but with her medication could live in relative comfort for several more years. They come up to her with paperwork (a consent to euthanasia) full of fine print and tell her that if she signs it, it will make things a lot easier for them. When she goes into the hospital for a 'check up', she would never check back out.

[rahmota]

Rubystars said:A grandma has Alzheimer's really badly and even when put in the nursing home she wanders around and gets into other people's things, and doesn't remember her family, screaming that her children are not her son or daughter. She accuses her caregivers of stealing from her, etc.


Well this is where we get into the gray zone. Considering how my mother and I took care of my maternal grandmother at home (We will not put anyone in a forget them home) for the last 8 years of her life as she died a little each day from the alzheimers and strokes and all sorts of other things related to being older than dirt. (She lived to be 98 or so years old, there was some question as to if she had actually made a 100 as her birth certificate was not clear on it as she was born at home as was the custom of the time.)

I have a bit of experience in the pain and suffering the family goes through as well as having observed the pain the person suffering with it goes through. To me it is not and would not be murder to end it if I was "living" like that, more of a mercy. Not knowing who my family was but knowing I should know them. The memories right there in front but just out of reach. That would be a living hell and by the end of her journey the person who was my grandmother had already died and all that was left was an empty shell with a random personality in it.


I guess this is why this is one of those hot button subjects as it is somethign deeply personal to each person in a different way. I personally favor having the option available to a person if there is a terminal illness (and right now Alzheimers falls into that category) where the mind,body or both cannot be healed and return to a quality or form of life acceptable to that person. For me I would hope to be helped across the vale in a situation like you described rather than be punished to an undeath like that. Or even worse punish those who I loved and cared about before I forget them. I saw my grandmother look up at us and ask who we where with tears in her eyes.

I will agree that you second scenario is wrong, evil, nasty and cold. It is dishonorable and is not worthy of calling those people family. Yes a person who is elderly and needs some help is a burdon but a burdon that family makes easier and blood, honor and duty requires.

Maybe it sounds like I think life is cheap but in the end it must come down to the question of is it more beneficial to the person living that life to help them live it or to help them (or allow them) to end it. As in the end sum of the equations the only thing we have to control is our own life.

[Rubystars]

I have a big problem with deciding on whether someone's 'quality of life' is good enough for another person. It's a very subjective thing, and some people might be very difficult to care for but still, subjectively, enjoy themselves most of the time.

[Boozy]

I have not heard of any bona fide euthanasia cases involving patients with Alzheimer's. Someone that kills an elderly person who no longer possesses the ability to make decisions for themselves is committing murder, and I can think of no court of law in the western world that would see it any differently.

But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is absolutely no reason why someone who is in their right mind and and knows what they are doing and what they want should be denied the dignity of a doctor-assisted suicide.

Laws can be written today in very clear language. I don't see a slippery slope here.

[rahmota]

I will agree that this is a very touchy and gray area. Once a person's mental faculties are gone they cannot decide for themselves something this major and seriouss. One reason why the decision/knowledge should be well known and discussed by all involved before anythign should happen. And to be perfectly honest I sincerely doubt that any late stage alzheimer's victims would be able to consider their lives fullfilling or worthwhile.

I will agree without prior permission or statements that it would be legally defined as murder, even if it would be more of a mercy than not IMPO.To be perfectly honest I sincerely doubt that any late stage alzheimer's victims would be able to consider their lives fullfilling or worthwhile. Killing someone just because they are a burden or inconvenient is never the right thing to do. Helping a person end their suffering with honor and dignity is always the right thign to do, maybe not the legal thing to do but at least the right thing.


Which is why the laws should be tightly defined and controlled to permit people the right to choose how they die. The one thing a person can truely decide for themselves.

[AFPheonix]

Well from the FAQ on Oregon's Death With Dignity Act:
Q: Can a patient's family members request participation in the Act on behalf of the patient (for example, in cases where the patient is comatose)?

A: No. The law requires that the patient ask to participate voluntarily on his or her own behalf.

So neither of your scenarios would happen in this state, according to this question.
Also, the doctor involved must determine whether the patient has the ability to ask to participate and understand fully what they are asking for.
http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/faqs.shtml



I thought it was interesting that there's a question in there about whether this is covered under insurance. I thought that was pretty funny in a macabre sort of way...

[Rubystars]

Euthanasia is in its infancy. Maybe one day the answer to that question will be 'yes'. There will be all these sob stories brought out by parents of deformed kids, kids of elderly and difficult to care for parents, goverenment agencies who wish to give 'dignity' to mentally ill people by killing them, etc.

I'm afraid to grow old :(

[AFPheonix]

Euthanasia is in its infancy in this country and culture, perhaps. Across the world and the centuries it's been used quite a bit.

Perhaps someday the answer will be yes, most likely it will continue to be no. As for being afraid to grow old, well, I won't worry about the inevitable.

[rahmota]

I'll agree in america Euthanasia is still not considered a viable alternative or option. I sincerely doubt it ever will be and honestly am torn on this one. I can see where in some cases it might be a mercy. I can see in other cases where shallow cold people would just look at the money factor and decide a 2.50 pack of poison or 1.50 bullet would be cheaper than 20grand a year in healthcare costs or the otherwise "burden" of caring for someone.

This is more of a social issue in that society has changed to where the family does not care about each other as strongly and as deeply as they used to. Maybe I was raised in the old ways but I have always believed that family takes care of family no matter what. This is just plain normal to me and one of the reasons why we have not had a family member die in a nursing home as we do not see it as a burden but an honor to take care of our own.

In many other socities throughout history though euthanasia was a sometimes necessary thing as their society did not have the resources available to take care of the weak , the invalid and the elderly. In the modern world we should be able to figure out some way of resolving it so that each person can choose their own path to the end. With honor and dignity.

I like the Oregon law. That would benice to see some sort of national program put into place like it as from what I see scanning the FAQ it seems to be pretty thought out and reasonable. A good role model for the rest of the country. And yeah it does seem a bit macbrely funny to ask if its covered under insurance.

And never be afraid to grow old. For as long as we continue to live then we dont start to die.