CPS has too much power!

[rahmota]

I wasn't sure about starting this thread as it might be a bad idea to question the secret police.

But I think the children services and other such agencies are being given way too many powers and making it harder for innocent people who run afoul of these stasi to deal with them.

For example: My wife is bi and I am an aethiest. My mother in law is a chrsitian taliban rightwinger who hates and want homosexuals outlawed and thinks there should be a national religion. She recently decided to call Children Services on us. (Fortunately we came throuhg this latest battle with flying colors and are still a family.)

These people come to your house and treat you like you are already proven guilty and you have to proove yourself innocent. The slightest thing outside what they consider to be normal or decent is considered confirmation of their need to interfere in your life. And yes they do look at your moral behavior as well. Too much alchohol in your house thats bad. Smoke inside thats bad. Too manby weapons or easy access to weapons and thats really bad. Too much laundry backed up and thats bad. Too many people living in the same house is bad. Enough of it and they can yank the children right then and there and there is nothign you can do about it. Because they can go have the sheriff come and take you and the children away at gunpoint.Whats even worse is that the amount of these thigns that is too much is subjective to the social worker involved as there are no set state standards and they do not have to tell you how much is too much.

So your options are to voluntarily cooperate and be investigated or to try and stand for your rights and be thrown in jail and have your family destroyed. And if you cooperate you had better have the right subservient attitude because if you question them or disagree with them then that goes against you. And since like I said you are already starting in the hole that doesnt help things. Not only that but they are not "ALLOWED" to tell you who called or why. (Fortunately my MIL has a big mouth so she told us for them) But by denying you the right to face your accuser that goes against the constitution. And it doesnt matter if the same person calls each and every week on bogus crud or not they "HAVE TO" treat each and every accusation seriously (If you ask them why they ask you if you dont care about your children, everythign they do is all for the good of the children and if you disagree with them then you must not care about your children....) they apparently are not allowed to use common sense or good judgement and realize that if the person is being called on each week and they find nothign there everytime then it might be a bogus revenge call or something going on that the other person should be investigated or at least charged with harrassment or something.

With people like this able to come into a family and destroy it at the slightest whim of a person who doesnt like you or disagrees with you or the way you live is it any wonder the republic is dead.

[Rubystars]

I didn't think being an atheist was illegal... or bi for that matter. Your mom has the right to disagree, but not to act that way about it.

Oh well, the best advice I can give you is to keep things clean and sparkly as much as possible around the house, but you probably knew that.

Just how often has CPS come over to harass you?

I think the reason why they can't tell you who called on you is to protect people who are calling on genuine cases of abuse. Let's say you called CPS because you knew a child was being beaten up by two alcoholic parents, or that a child was being starved and given cocaine so they'd stop whining about being hungry. Would you really want those kind of violent or nasty people to know who you were? Especially if your suspicions turned out to be false. A lot of people won't report genuine concerns unless they feel safe to do so, or know they will be anonymous.

[rahmota]

Well thats the sad thing about CPS it doesnt always have to be merely illegal to get in trouble with them. merely somethign they find "harmful" to the children or their environment. This has been interpreted to mean your moral behavior as well under the current administration.

This is the second time in our life we have had to deal with them. My BIL and his wife (Who are so anti sex they sleep in different bedrooms to avoid having sexual temptations) called once before which that investigation lasted a month. This one has lasted two weeks. It seems to be a different for each person and case.

It still deprives the person of facing their accusers which is guarenteed in the constitution. Unfortunately there are those who will use the system as a method of revenge and retribution against those they dont like or for other malicious reasons not just for actual concerns. And as for those kinds of people knowing I did it I would be proud to tell them to their face I did it as I am not afraid of the dark. I stand for the light and will not be cowed. Allowing people to remian anonymous is allowing them to develop into cowards and attack others they hate with immunity and impunity from the shaodws..

[Rubystars]

This is the second time in our life we have had to deal with them. My BIL and his wife (Who are so anti sex they sleep in different bedrooms to avoid having sexual temptations)

One or both of them must be ugly if they came up with that idea to avoid the other person sexually. :confused:

Did anyone ever tell them about Hebrews 13:4?

Anyway, I know a lot of people don't want violent people or their friends to come and beat them up if they get the bad people in trouble.

[AFPheonix]

Funky.

And then there's the kids who slip through the cracks and are beaten to death, and no one blinks an eye.
The entire system needs a complete overhaul, methinks.

[Rubystars]

Sometimes I wonder how a free society that values privacy could still protect a girl like Genie:

http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=genie

None of the neighbors knew she even existed, and none of the neighbors suspected anything funny was going on.

The parents locked this girl up and strapped her to a potty chair and didn't teach her how to talk or anything.

I saw a video of her on one of the documentaries where it showed how damaged she was. She was slamming herself against a wall repeatedly.

Of course, discovering cases like hers would be almost impossible without some kind of invasion of privacy. :(

[rahmota]

About the BIL and SIL. They do what they do because they claim the bible tells them to do so. :rolleyes: I'm not sure if they skimmed it or not though by their actions.....

As for the CPS you are totally correct AFP. The system is so messed up that innocent people get shafted while the ones who are truely deserving of a ticket to hades realm get away scott free. Part of it is because our society doesnt care enough about their own sense of honor, family doesnt take care of family and people are too busy trying to keep up with what "society" deems is normal and valuable just so they dont get looked at funny or treated like suspects because they dont fit in. Normal is the averaging of everybodies differences. And I would like to see the CPS stop being the moral police for the country. What consenting adults do with consenting adults is NOBODIES business but their own. As long as the children are healthy, fed, clothed,loved, cared for and protected it works out in the end.

It seems like some of the people who go into those jobs dont really care about the people but like the power tripping effect they have. I'm not saying everyone who goes into CPS as an employee is a tin plated dictator with delusions of god hood, I'm sure there are a few who actually care but the way the system is set up treating everyone as guilty until they can be proven innocent is not good for anyone on either side of the equation.

Ruby: I'll agree that the situation you posted the link to is one where it gets sticky. Either we let stuff like that get through the cracks and hope it all works out in the end, we continue like we are now, we figure out some way of getting the bad folks while protecting the good folks or we go with the totalitarian orwellian state where everyone is watched all the time. I'm not really sure what the fix is.

Some Ideas I have are:
1: Stop being the morality police.
2: Limit the investigation to the actual charges and allegations. No fishign expeditions to see if you can find something else, especially relating to #1. This is not to say if there is allegations of abuse and they come into a house and its got shite all over the floor to ignore that but at least limit them from poking into everything (For some reaosn they had me open the drawers of my desk and show them there was no Porn available for the children to look at)
3: Not be permitted to hide the allegations and purpose of their visit at the very least. I would prefer them not to be able to accept anonymous tips or hide the identity of the accuser. Right now you cannot even get the courts to force them to tell you who called on you. A clear violation (IMO) of the constitutional right to face your accusers.
4:Work with the family to fix any problems, Not against them. Yes some "families" are not fixable but thats a whole nuther ball of wax. Whenever possible it is in the best interests of everyone to keep a family who loves and cares about each other but is struggling with some issues together.
5:Figure out when there is a true and valid accusation and when its just someone wanting to be a spiteful person or do it out of revenge. Say if the same person or group of people are calling on the same person multiple times and each time they have come back clean then you know common sense might indicate that the problem is not with the target of the investigation but the ones making the accusations.
6: USE COMMON SENSE!!! I know common sense is very uncommon (and actually very subjective in the end result of things) but still its better to err on the side of innocence than to come down like a jack booted thug. If you look at everyone like they are potential scum then even the good guys look like the black hats to ya.

[Rubystars]

What scares me is when I hear they ask general questions like "Does your mom or dad ever hit you?" and if the kids say yes, because they got mildly spanked, then the CPS people think the kids are being abused and want to take them away. Actually the same reason could be why kids could answer yes to a question like "Do your parents ever touch you in ways you don't like?"

[rahmota]

Yeah I lump all that sort of BS under the fishing expedition category. Like when they ask the same question only phrased a little different each time.
"Do you sleep with anyone other than your wife?", "Have you slept with anyone else recently?", "Have you had a relationship outside the marrige recently?" (All questions asked of me by the gestapo.)

[DesignFox]

This topic irritates me to no end. CPS, DYFS whatever you want to call them... I can't say what I want to 'cause it just isn't nice! :mad:

That's all I'm going to say. I have to protect the interests of privacy, so I can't say anything more. Much as I've tried to re-write this post, I can't get the right words.

Rahmota...I understand. I wish you luck. Don't let them keep you down. Just keep records. Close records of everything that happens, and every phone call your MIL brags about. And keep track of the case workers and all the bullshit they put you through. That's the best advice I can give you over the very public forum of the internet.

[rahmota]

DesignFox: Thanks. Oh yeah we are keeping a close record of things. The MIL has stopped talking to us which is sort of a good thing. Bad thign in that the intel on the enemy is not as strong now. :) And oh yeah there is enouhg of a papertrail going on right now that a small forest has probably died...

That and several people I know in my social class have had issues with this before. Ever notice how its not rich people who get hassled by them as often as it is middle or lower middle or lower class (Socially/monetarily speaking) folks who do. Must be nice to be rich and above the law.

[Dreamstalker]

My mom has had some similar problems, although not with CPS per se, but the state dept. of elderly affairs. They started crying "abuse!" once about two years ago because my grandparents were still in their house at the age of 90. They were fine; they took care of themselves, ate well, the house was clean, if we weren't there friends and neighbors would check up on them and ask if they needed any errands run, etc.

I think the way they found out was when my grandmother went into the hospital after a minor fall (she got up from her chair and slid on a pile of magazines on the floor). Luckily, our lawyer lives down the road from them and had dealt with the state many times before.

[rahmota]

Wow that sucks but is not surprising. Our government needs to get its head out of its collective arse and concentrate on real problems not people's personal lives. If they are able to take care of themselves unassisted or with minimal assitence then how is that abuse? It sometiems seems like these organizations want everyone to live in a nerf world with servants to take care of everything and ensure they live a barbie dream home lifestyle where nothing happens and nothing changes and there are no threats or hazards.

Well you know what its an imperfect world. Everythign is a threat if you stop and think about it. Just laying in bed you could have a coronary, there could be jet airplane fall on you, you could get a papercut that infects you with yabba dabba doo syndrome. Bah! Let people live their lives. If they need help it will become apparent in its own time. This is not to say let anythign and everything under the stars go on, have a safety net there to catch those who truely need it.

[Dreamstalker]

It sometiems seems like these organizations want everyone to live in a nerf world with servants to take care of everything and ensure they live a barbie dream home lifestyle where nothing happens and nothing changes and there are no threats or hazards.
That seems to be an (il)logical extension of the whole "child-safe" concept that resulted in the death of wood and metal playgrounds (zomg splinters!), rise of antibacterial everything and possibly naturally the rise of another supergerm, strictly supervised play, etc.

The system here is monumentally screwed up. Kids can exaggerate things, or lie to stop being badgered (coerced confession), fault can also lie with the person interpreting statements; the burden of proof should be put on the organization. I believe in the legal system the burden of proof is largely on the plaintiff, why should this be any different?

[squall]

I think the CPS system may be flawed, but in some cases there can be nowhere else to turn to. I must say that I strongly disagree about the logic that people should be given the right to know the name of their accuser. True, there are those that use the CPS system for revenge, or simply because they don't like these people and want to see bad things happen to them. I think there are quite possibly people who's need to remain anonymous can somehow be related to their personal safety. There are genuine cases of child abuse and neglect. These same people who have brazen disregard for the well-being for their children are quite possibly the same people who have brazen disregard for the lives of others and the laws that protect them. You might see on the morning news for stabbing their their "nosy" neighbor. To give someone the address and phone number of your accuser is comparable to showing them the door and giving them the keys.

I am in a situation involving a portion of my wife's family. My 6 year old niece told my wife and I that she is fed by her parents only once a day...dinner.... of fast food. She broke down and cried about going home. She said her parents don't love her, call her "shithead" all the time, and hit her. She is rail thin. My wife has a brother, a high school dropout with no moral scruples. We'll call him C. His live-in wife and their two kids literally starve while he goes out and buys his own food and buys none for them. He is the sole provider, but provides very little. He does not make much money, and what he makes he blows on pot and beer for himself, and cigarettes for his wife. He pays no attention to his kids, and not much to is wife. His wife called us once, very sick. She was too sick to have sex with him, so he took it by force from her. C's father is paying off the credit card debt he brought him by claiming his identity. He receives welfare funds and canned goods, but is TOO LAZY to open canned goods and cook them, he totally subsists on fast food. We know because we've seen his kitchen closet stocked with can goods, but his kitchen trash only ever has fast food wrappings, and he told us himself. The wife is not any better as she has an 8th grade education and has the maturity of a child herself. She breastfeeds her two year old. Sometime back she was busted by her husband doing speed with some drugee losers in their house. The only decent thing he ever did was to send their asses flying out the door from a baseball bat. And any money C gives her is usually spent on cigarettes, not food for herself or her children. Their house is an unholy filth not fit for raising kids. There are many other weird details, but too many to rattle out in one sitting. They are not good parents. My wife's parents are not the very helpful or supportive type. She spends as much time as she can with her niece and nephew, and that's all we could do...besides possibly calling CPS on them. The whole once a day meal thing we just found out a week ago, and we almost called CPS right then and there. But first, we are trying to see what WE can do to improve the lives of the kids, or get their parents on the right track. CPS is the last resort if they refuse to change their ways. And they can be vengeful people. They will know their own family ratted them out, but not which part, and probably self-destruct on everyone.

If being safe makes me a coward in anybody's eyes, I don't really give a hootnanny. What good can come out of the accused having the address and name of the accuser? I can think of nothing good coming out of a situation like that. Usually, there will be no warm and fuzzy joining of hearts and hands.

I guess I'm a coward, but at least I won't have some accused whacko break down my door with gun drawn.

[Boozy]

That's a very sad story, Squall. Your niece and nephew are very lucky to have you and your wife.

I hope you continue to help them...although I would urge you to reconsider calling CPS. They may be able to help the entire family. Although there are many horror stories about them abusing their power, and I don't doubt those stories, a story like yours is a good example of what CPS is there for.

I have limited first-hand knowledge about children's services here in Canada and none when it comes to the US. But my aunt is a foster mother, and she has said that social services removes children from a home in only the most extreme situations. Often, their goal is to provide education and support to struggling (and sometimes ignorant) parents. And if your brother-in-law is as morally bankrupt as he seems to be, they may be able to provide assistance to his wife in getting herself and the children out of that situation.

[rahmota]

Squall: I will have to say that you are doing the right thing in trying to keep it within the family. Families should take care of each other and when CPS came about too many people began to rely on the government to do the hard things that need to be done. Which is part of the main problem. People have stopped relying on and being close to their family to help them and let the government do things. You are right CPS is the last resort as they will come in and destroy any hope of that family being redeemed or restored.

True the people you are talking about are very self-destructive in the extreme but and I am sorry that they have isolated themselves from their family. That is one of the harsh thigns about our modern society that should be changed as well.

And as for CPS I'll stand by what I said about how they need to be reformed and reorganized and limited in their powers. Also not being able to know and stand in fnt of your accusers goes against one of the cornerstones of the American justice system. If you start allowing accusers to remain hidden then that leads to all kinds of witchhunts and star chamber justice.

Basically whats needed is society to pull itself together, families to start taking care of each other and to only go to the CPS as a LAST and final resort. And for the CPS to be reformed themselves so they are no longer the secret police and are actually an agency that is there to help people maintain the lifestyle and home they choose to have in a reasonable and effective manner.

Boozy: here stateside they have removed children for as simple a reason as one parent is a homosexual. That there is too much laundrey sitting stacked up on the floor , and by too much we are talking about 2 basket loads. My own cousin alomost had his taken just because his trailer only had 2 bedrooms and his 3 kids (1 6 year old and 1 set of 2 year old twins) had to share one bedroom. The larger bedroom of the two in the trailer. (We think it was a vindictive ex friend of his who called on him) but fortunately the family banded together and built an addition to his trailer so that all the kids could have their own bedroom.

So while there are rare and infrequent occasions where CPS might do some helpful thigns for the most part they hurt, harm and come powerstomping into a person's life in their jackbooted thuggish way.

[squall]

The right to face your accuser applies only in a court, not on the accuser's doorstep. Amendment #6:Your SIXTH AMENDMENT Constitutional Right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury ... and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

Until a case goes to court, the accuser in a CPS case has every right to remain anonymous. Any disclosure of this information by officials is in violation of privacy laws.

I would hope you don't mean to confront your accuser face at their residence or anywhere else. Nothing good can come of it. At least in a court-room, the safety of an accuser is not entirely in question.

What do you mean by witch-hunting? Leave it for the courts, not the streets.

[rahmota]

Squall: What I menat by witch hunting was how the CPS comes into a person's house automatically assuming they are the worst case of scum trash and villany they have ever seen. that you are guilty until you proove you are innocent and then they act like they are disappointed if they do not get to destroy your life. About how they come into a person's house and poke and prod and paw over everything and lie and ask misleading questions and try to trick people into admitting they have done somethign wrong or that there is somethign wrong and then get disappointed if everythign turns out ok.

And considering how even if they do not take it to court you are still on trial for your life and your family with them the moment they cross your door a person's rights should still apply.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this as I see them as a dog and waste of society. Villans worthy of an empire of evil than a democratic republic.

[squall]

Not saying I disagree with your view on CPS, only your interpretation of your rights and laws. Amendment 6 explicitly states you face your accuser in a court. That does not mean you have the same right outside of court. Therefore you cannot harass or enact frontier justice on said party. Since I don't know you, I will not try to paint you as something you are not. But consider these circumstances from a police perspective: I know you are an avid carrier of firearms. Not saying anything about your mental state or your readiness to use it, none of us know you that well, and neither do the police. But police have a tendency to assume that an armed person is a potentially dangerous individual in the wrong place at the wrong time given a certain set of circumstances. Yes, it sucks that they can call CPS whenever they want considering they probably aren't even on speaking terms with your family and see you rarely. I don't know what it is like to walk on egg-shells all the time and wonder when the next time CPS is going to darken my doorstep. All I can suggest is mediate through your wife if possible. And document everything. If there is no proof that these lunatic Bible thumpers could possibly witness the things they describe, how can their accusations be considered plausible after so many repeated calls and no ill findings?

Also, If I'm not mistaken, CPS is subject to the 4th Amendment....another words you can refuse a CPS search if they do not have a search warrant. Child custody is considered a seizure. I wrote a thread on your 4th Amendment rights in the politics section. Interesting link on your rights against CPS http://cpsvictims.tripod.com/id4.html. Maybe the kind of revenge you need against them when all else fails is the legal kind....sue them for harassment and filing false cps reports.

[Boozy]

Also, If I'm not mistaken, CPS is subject to the 4th Amendment....another words you can refuse a CPS search if they do not have a search warrant. Child custody is considered a seizure.

Can CPS gain access to your home without your consent (but with a warrant) if they believe a child is in imminent danger?

No biggie if you don't know. I'm just curious.

On TV, you see cops busting into places without warrants when they hear screaming inside. I always wondered if that was accurate or just dramatic license.

[squall]

On TV, you see cops busting into places without warrants when they hear screaming inside. I always wondered if that was accurate or just dramatic license.

That is considered reasonable cause to enter...one of the conditions of police to enter without a warrant. If police hear nothing and see nothing, they have no right to enter without a warrant. I believe CPS and police can obtain a warrant, but they have to go through some trouble to do so.

[rahmota]

Boozy: The proper legal phrase is probable cause. As in there is probable cause of a crime being committed. I was trained in that back when I was goign to be a cop. The thing is if you bust down a door and there wasnt any crime then you can be punished for it. A sticky wicket to say the least.

Squall: Actually merely refusign to allow them to enter is grounds for probable cause (according to their own paperwork) that you are committing a crime and they can be back within an hour with the sheriff and a warrent. Failure to voluntarily cooperate with their investigations means you are hiding something and gives them probable cause to escalate thigns into an official corut mandate and all that jazz.

I'll agree that the regional influence of firearms is different between rural and city areas and the city is where laws come from. Locally the sheriff's department encuorages people to get a concealed carry and be armed as they recognize they cannot be everywhere at once. However reasonable people are not going to be running around dispensing frontier justice. It just makes it easier to defend oneself against the accusations since CPS will not tell you what you are accused of. Which is also IMO illegal.

I'll agree that my interpretation may not be the exactly harvard law school or popular right now but then again morals and ethics are not always popular. I see a person's home as an inviolate private space. A man's home is his castle and he is the lord and master of it. (with the permission of his wife :) ) A bit old fashioned and anti-social but oh well our society sucks and needs an enema right now.