Miracle or coincidence?

[IDrinkaRum]

Young man is injured while pole vaulting; family and friends pray to priest who died in 1951 to help heal the young man; much to doctors' surprise, boy does recover. (http://www.kansas.com/196/story/861812.html)

According to the doctors, the young man's head injury was serious. His skull was cracked from side to side. Either the surgery to remove part of the skull bone or infection would kill him. Scant weeks later, he's walking out of the hospital. Family and friends prayed to Father Emil Kapaun. He was a local priest over 50 years who died in 1951.

This may be the "needed" to have Father Kapaun vaulted to sainthood. For the record, there are currently only 2 Americans who have been sainted.

Is this truly a miracle or just medical coincidence?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Medical coincidence.

Scientific studies have shown us that the divine has had no statistical effect of any consequence. Anomalies are merely the result of the law of large numbers, I.E. chance among the masses, nothing more.

[lordlundar]

I'm going to go on another approach here and say "power of positive thought". The body can do amazing things if the mind will let it.

[Flyndaran]

It's been proven that some individuals have an uncunny ability to survive and heal injuries that would certainly kill the vast majority of other people.
Last I heard they were doing genetic studies to ascertain how common this refusal is to "circle the drain" as doctors call it.

A miracle requires something to be impossible, not simply unlikely.

Otherwise I can call my lack of injury from a two story fall as a child a miracle.. rather than the accidental attempted homicide from my brother leaning on me at the window.
Horrifyingly enough my mother was looking out the living room window just in time to see me falling past.

[IDrinkaRum]

As a Catholic, I was raised to believe in miracles.

Also, the Catholic church doesn't just proclaim a miracle to be a miracle on a whim. They (supposedly) investigate it thoroughly. That's why there isn't a miracle being announced every day of the week, and there aren't Saints being declared every month or so.

Even the young man's doctors are saying his recovery is "miraculous".

I would like to believe in miracles. It's stories like this that inspire to believe that maybe there is a miracle or two still waiting to happen in this world.

[Flyndaran]

The catholic church has a saint for hemorrhoids.
They fought Galileo for centuries.
I don't take stock in anything they recognize.
Simply put, something would have to be proven impossible for it to be considered a miracle. Good luck is not miraculous.
Doctors often say things that aren't scientifically valid. They're human beings.

[BroomJockey]

Also, the Catholic church doesn't just proclaim a miracle to be a miracle on a whim. They (supposedly) investigate it thoroughly. That's why there isn't a miracle being announced every day of the week,

As noted in an episode of House, the Catholic Church only acknowledges a small number of miracles each year, but they do acknowledge a few. Because they're in the business of miracles. They kind of require them. Now, if you had a few scientists in there, with no affiliation, declaring it a miracle and not just some good healing and lucky with how the injury manifests, that'd be a bit more convincing.

[Slytovhand]

Yes, I'd more say 'coincidence' or some such similar... there's a few different possibilities.

I would also like to point out, 'miracles' of this nature (ha! pun! :p) happen to people of all religious bents... would they be considered 'miracles' as well?? Or is it only if you follow that one faith? And the rest are...??? Luck? The Devil?? or what?

[Flyndaran]

Healing fast and well isn't a coincidence. Coincidences require two or more events to occur. This was just one really good one.

[BroomJockey]

Healing fast and well isn't a coincidence. Coincidences require two or more events to occur. This was just one really good one.

Well, the "coincidence" part is people prayed, person healed. There's your two actions. The question is, did the prayer cause the healing (miracle), or did the two have no causal connection (coincidence)?

Bet I can guess your answer, though. :p

[Flyndaran]

Well, the "coincidence" part is people prayed, person healed. ...

People pray all the time. It's a non-issue.
That just leaves the single issue of healing well and fast.

[BroomJockey]

People pray all the time. It's a non-issue.


Actually, it's at the heart of this issue, since they prayed to a specific (non-sainted) person, and one of the actions to become a saint is to have a miracle ascribed to you post-mortem. People do pray all the time, but in this case, it was "not standard" prayer, which is being termed different. We need to engage on the definitions provided by the argument. Thus, does this "different" form of prayer enable it to qualify as a miracle.

Since most atheists support the idea of prayer in its totality being ineffective, the fact that it's different doesn't really change the content of the argument, but nevertheless, that is the argument at hand.

[Flyndaran]

Prayer has been repeatedly proven to be completely ineffective. That makes it a non-issue. Next... he healed well and fast. That's not sun halting in the sky miracle. It's simply lucky / good genes.

[AdminAssistant]

Well, if the family and those of that faith believe that praying to that priest saved the guy's life, more power to them. Doesn't really bother me one way or the other.

[BroomJockey]

Prayer has been repeatedly proven to be completely ineffective. That makes it a non-issue.

See, this is where we're getting hung up. You're automatically calling it a non-issue, when they're claiming that is was effective in this instance. You're completely fine to take your stance like that, but technically, non-issues factor in to coincidence, too. I took a different route to work today, and I didn't get rained on. The fact that it wasn't raining makes the route I took a non-issue, doesn't mean it's still not a coincidence.

[Flyndaran]

Uh oh. I think we may have subtly different definition of coincidence.

[BroomJockey]

Uh oh. I think we may have subtly different definition of coincidence.

Well, mine is "two events occur at the same time, and have no bearing on each others outcomes." No weighting of the events. Whether one is a "valid" action or not, it's still an event or action. Prayer is an action. Thus, the occurrence of prayer in the vicinity of healing would be a coincidence. Action A did not influence Action B.

[Slytovhand]

I'll weigh in with the confusing...

Jung postulated the concept of 'Synchronicity'... two apparently unrelated events, yet somehow having a connection which is not apparent in the material world. The example he used (IIRC) was a crow/raven (traditional symbol of death) landing on the window sill, and taking that as an omen of someone (uncle, again IIRC) dying. And yes, person did die within a 'reasonable' time frame (hours - or less).

This is the concept of omens, prophecy, magic and the like.

If, say, I 'cast a spell' to make something happen (eg, I need a place to live) and then, within 2 hours, I'm offered a place to live by a complete stranger, is that coincidence, miracle, or is there some form of (real) magic at work?

(and I'm using that example, because that is exactly what did happen many years ago).

Similarly, last Thursday (or was it Wednesday.. losing track of time here...), I was on Facebook and had just hit 'compose' to send a message to a friend of mine - when she sends me an sms. Sure, happens lots of times. Later that same day, I'm walking down the beach to the cafe, and I decide I should really drop a line to a mate of mine whom I haven't contacted in any way shape or form to for... I'm thinking over a year, really... not in any meaningful way. So, I'm thinking I should check my phone to see if I've got his number, and lo and behold - he rings... time difference? About 3 minutes.

Yep, these 'coincidences' happen all the time.... which is why I don't believe coincidence is so accidental... thus, I have some of the beliefs I do.


Miracles? Sure, why not? (but... let's not go overboard, and let's not think we already know why... pagans can effectively explain a lot more weird stuff in the universe than christians can)

[muses_nightmare]

My first thought wasn't miracle necessarily, but that they were praying to the spirit of someone who has passed on, to the "blessed dead" or Akhu.

But I do think it's at least partially a coincidence, some people do heal more quickly and cleanly than others.

[Flyndaran]

A miracle is something impossible like stoppin the sun in the sky, raising the dead, etc.
Healing faster than average is not impossible. It happens all the time. Stupid coincidences happen all the time.
There was a guy struck by lightning seven times, once while indoors.
Life is too short for everything to average out.

[PepperElf]

it could have worked.

i'm reminded of my Mom actually.


she was in the hospital for surgery and she just wasn't feeling good afterwards. She literally said, at that point she didn't care if she lived or died because it felt that horrible.

A priest was making his rounds and stopped in to visit and she asked for the "Anointing of the sick" rights. These use to be called "Last Rights" but it was decided they could be given to anyone in need of healing.

Afterwards, she said she felt better.

The next day the priest came back to see how she was doing and literally said, it was like looking at a different woman. Her response was that it was the Anointing of the Sick that made the difference.

[Ghel]

Here's the issue in this discussion (or what I think it is, anyway): how do we define "miracle"? Is it something that goes against physics as we know it? Something we thought was impossible? Or is it God interfering directly in somebody's life? I think in this story, the fellow and his family would accept the latter definition. Was the guy's recovery impossible? No. But it was incredibly unlikely. The odds were stacked against him, let's say. The family believes that their god intervened directly on their behalf to help the fellow heal. That, to them, is a miracle. To those who do not share their beliefs, it is not. It is simply a case of someone with unusual healing qualities, and though it is outside the norm, it is not totally unheard of.

[Boozy]

Here's the issue in this discussion (or what I think it is, anyway): how do we define "miracle"? Is it something that goes against physics as we know it? Something we thought was impossible? Or is it God interfering directly in somebody's life?

For something to qualify as a miracle in my mind, it would have to fly in the face of all known science.

Someone recovering from a presumed terminal illness doesn't count, since there is nothing physically impossible about a body's immune system rallying, no matter how rare or unlikely.

[Mr Slugger]

how do we define "miracle"?

See I think there's two definitions of miracle there's the event types and there's the moreso luck types. I mean if a statue of mary was to weep and there was no way to explain it then it's a religious miracle. Someone gets stabbed through their body with a shovel and it misses every major organ that's a miracle to me too. But a different type.

And that's the way I look at it. Now in this person's case. I mean it's probably luck.

As far as prayer goes. I'm one of those that believes while there might not be a god, there is a higher power, and where that power comes from I have no clue. And for people that dismiss prayer as something that helps honestly can they really prove that? Now honestly, and because of my beliefs I don't think god answered their prayers. However who can really say that their prayers didn't help? Maybe on some level they help heal him, maybe it was him on some level of consciousness knowing that they were there, and that gave him the strength come back, and maybe he was just a fighter. I dunno honestly, but I think for them if they want to believe it's a miracle then let them believe it is.

[Ghel]

For something to qualify as a miracle in my mind, it would have to fly in the face of all known science.
I completely agree. In fact, I would go a step farther. If something happens that is outside of all known science, that simply means that we have something new to discover. Or it's a fraud. Either way, we have learned something about the world we live in.

[Flyndaran]

I completely agree. In fact, I would go a step farther. If something happens that is outside of all known science, that simply means that we have something new to discover. Or it's a fraud. Either way, we have learned something about the world we live in.

Yep. If something exists, then it can be studied by scientific methods.
Prayer has been repeatedly shown to have no positive effect whatsoever. As long as everyone admits that simple fact, then they can faith thier way around the world all they like for all I care.

[Slytovhand]

Prayer has been repeatedly shown to have no positive effect whatsoever. As long as everyone admits that simple fact, then they can faith thier way around the world all they like for all I care.

I'd just like to throw in, prayer has also been repeatedly show to have a positive effect...

Just depends on who's doing the research...

[Flyndaran]

I'd just like to throw in, prayer has also been repeatedly show to have a positive effect...

Just depends on who's doing the research...

All those studies had so many scientific incompetencies that they became insults to intelligence.
What's funny was the one that indicated that prayers had a negative effect even on those not knowing that they were being prayed for.
If the effect exists then it is too small to measure and therefore ignorable.

[Slytovhand]

All those studies had so many scientific incompetencies that they became insults to intelligence.
What's funny was the one that indicated that prayers had a negative effect even on those not knowing that they were being prayed for.
If the effect exists then it is too small to measure and therefore ignorable.

No - it means all possible variables haven't been accounted for.. something which, in this sort of situation, would be impossible to account for scientifically... unless, of course, you're going to find a few thousand people willing to put themselves into a terminal illness and see which of those survives... and see if they fare better than a control group.

No??

I thought not.

[Flyndaran]

No - it means all possible variables haven't been accounted for.. something which, in this sort of situation, would be impossible to account for scientifically... unless, of course, you're going to find a few thousand people willing to put themselves into a terminal illness and see which of those survives... and see if they fare better than a control group.

No??

I thought not.

Just using a large sample size will factor out all variables but prayer. If it didn't then science wouldn't work, and that's just silly.
The studied sick people with prayer, without, knowing and not knowing about it. There was no statistically significant difference between prayer and non prayer groups. The previoulsy mentioned bit was in the statistically insignificant part, but still funny.