Any other born atheists out there? [Archive]

BroomJockey

06-29-2009, 05:25 PM

Eh, I think had my upbringing been different, I'd have been like that. Instead, since my parents just took me to church since I was born, and I didn't talk about religion outside of Church, it was always just that thing that took up time on Sundays. While I was young, it was fun enough. We played games in Sunday School, sang songs, and did fun stuff. When we had to be in with the grown-ups, it was always boring, and didn't make much sense.

As I got older, and Sunday School wasn't an option anymore, the whole thing just seemed boring and a waste of time to me. It always gave me more questions than answers. I don't think I ever would have described myself as "Christian" unless specifically asked, and by the time I officially said "I am NOT Christian" in Grade 10, I hadn't been going to Church except on holidays for years.

So, basically, had I been raised where it had even been an option, I probably would have started as an atheist.

Flyndaran

06-29-2009, 05:30 PM

Ah, but for me it wasn't an option. I was raised by christians and attended a nice sunday school. There was no religious intolerance, and both my parents were always kind, generous, and understanding.
I just never for even a moment believed all those stories could be true. I was six when I realized that adults actually believed them.
I had many talks with my father, and he never belittled my thoughts or came across as confrontational. He eventually accepted my nature and never forced me to attend church.
If I wasn't religious in that family, then I simply am incapable of religion.

BroomJockey

06-29-2009, 05:37 PM

I was raised by christians and attended a nice sunday school. There was no religious intolerance, and both my parents were always kind, generous, and understanding.
I just never for even a moment believed all those stories could be true. I was six when I realized that adults actually believed them.
I had many talks with my father, and he never belittled my thoughts or came across as confrontational. He eventually accepted my nature and never forced me to attend church.

Hooboy. You had it way better than me. My father was fine, but my mother condemned other sects of Christianity, even. When I finally "manned up" and told my mother I didn't consider myself Christian, she nearly had a breakdown. Even to this day, she randomly invokes god in saying "See, God was looking out for you," if something good happens to me, or "I can't understand why you won't go to Church!" I *have* been forced to attend Church, since I was visiting them for Christmas break a few years ago, and I don't have a vehicle of my own, so if I didn't cooperate, I was kind of fucked for getting back home at the end of the break.

I don't know that I ever thought that the stories were real, though I'd accepted the idea that Jesus really did live that long ago. I'd sort of categorized it with the novels I read at home, though significantly less interesting.

Flyndaran

06-29-2009, 05:41 PM

Yeah, my father even accepted scientific theories as simply the means through which god worked. So I never had to choose between education and religion.

guywithashovel

06-29-2009, 07:11 PM

If my parents had never decided to start taking us to church, I probably would have been a "born atheist" as you describe. When we first started going (when I was about 9), I thought many of the ideas of the people at my church were pretty wacky. However, I eventually fell into believing some of the things they taught. Still yet, if they had never filled my mind with horror stories of burning hellfire, then I suspect that I may have never convinced myself to believe.

I became a fairly serious Christian when I was in my teens, and many times I would stop and think about the things I believed, and I actually saw that many of my beliefs were pretty crazy. I just kept believing in them out of fear of Hell, though.

I can definitely understand why so many religious people cling to their belief in Hell. It certainly is a good tactic to use in order to scare people into your religion, especially young, impressionable children---many of whom still believe in the boogeyman and monsters in their closets.

Slytovhand

06-29-2009, 07:15 PM

I'm not sure if you'll accept me in this thread, Flyn.

I've never been even remotely monotheistic, and the whole concept of 'god' as it's used is really beyond me. Sure, I believe in things that science hasn't yet grasped or conceded to, but they still fall into a logical place.

I wasn't brought up in a religious household, but I was forced to attend various religious training classes at the schools I went to, but they meant nothing to me... it didn't make any sense to me - the universe that massive and ancient, but we're the most important thing around??

Sorry, I can't 'worship' anything. (though, I will show respect to other entities that I come across... that's just polite and sensible... you don't piss off the locals when you're travelling overseas, do you??)

AdminAssistant

06-29-2009, 08:16 PM

Yeah, my father even accepted scientific theories as simply the means through which god worked. So I never had to choose between education and religion.

Exactly. I've never understood why science and religion are seen as mutually exclusive.

AFPheonix

06-29-2009, 10:09 PM

Because some people feel that science infringes on God's divinity. They truly want to believe in the miraculous, and when some scientist comes along and proves that something we thought was in the realm of the supernatural really isn't, that challenges their understanding of who God is.

It's really kind of a result of weak and shaky faith.

I was not a born athiest, although I felt kind of odd in church, in that while everyone else seemed to be having genuine religious experiences, I was having to pantomime what they did. I never felt comfortable praying publicly, mostly because I felt what I was saying was more for the benefit of the people listening and praying alongside.
Maybe I was and just didn't realize it until I got out of the house and out of the religious bubble I'd been cocooned in for so long.
In any case, I am probably best described as an agnostic athiest. I personally don't see evidence for the divine or supernatural, but I'm not going to discount people who seem to see it in their lives. It's not provable definitively one way or another, so I'm not going to sweat it.

Talon

06-30-2009, 02:09 AM

Flyn, I think in this context you are referring to an atheist as someone who rejects religion?

In that case, count me in among the "born" atheists. I was raised as a Hindu, went through the plethora of rituals and paid respect to the many faces of god. Thanks to the ass-backwards school system in the country I was living in at the time, I had to attend a Muslim primary school. I was exempt from going to the mosque on Fridays at least, but I still got an earful about how Allah separated truth from falsehood, blah blah. Parents dragged me off to temple every Sunday.

But it was all just a rote exercise to me, saying and doing what parents expected of me. I found it quite boring, really. My falling out with Hinduism had nothing to do with some kind of awakening, but a pundit's wife who was rude to me.

I don't believe in any sort of merciful god who directly intervenes in our lives. Given all the crap that goes on the world, such a god would have a lot of dereliction of duty charges to answer for. I am inclined to believe in reincarnation or rebirth. But I don't believe in the idea that seemingly innocent people suffer because they are atoning for evils they committed in a past life. How is that fair? How can you atone for actions you can't remember? Sounds like a convenient story to help keep unruly peasants in line.

My dad seems to think my attitude is a "phase" I'll grow out of. Given that I'm approaching my 30's, unlikely. My mom claims religion is something I have to accept blindly and unquestioningly, like a child. Sorry your royal highness, I was *never* that young.

If other people want to believe in religion, that's their call. Since by design it can't be proven or disproven, I have no comment.

Flyndaran

06-30-2009, 12:05 PM

Thankyou oh so much Talon. I've felt a bit alone in my world view. I feel a little less of a freak now.

Though I must admit I'm more than just an atheist. I reject all magical phenomenon from ghosts to psychic abilities to luck to etc.
One person suggested that I could call myself a rationalist. But that sounds a little insulting to others, eh?

Talon

06-30-2009, 01:45 PM

Less of a freak? You say that as if being a freak is a bad thing :)

Not atheist, not rationalist. How about PERList? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0zSCpsOSSw&feature=channel_page) As in you believe in Physical Evidence, Reason, Logic?

Flyndaran

06-30-2009, 01:58 PM

Really cool.

smileyeagle1021

07-01-2009, 11:39 AM

growing up in Nevada has given me an interesting worldview when it comes to the Almighty. I'm a somewhat born Deist. In Nevada there is one thing always drilled into you time and time again, unless you have something on your side the odds will be against you, chance favors the house. And it doesn't take long in a casino to see just how true that is. I find it hard to believe that life came to be by chance and odds alone, I find it harder to believe that some of the stuff that happens in our lives is by chance alone. The story behind this last weekend is a good example. There are 6 billion people on this planet, 300 million in this country, at least 50 million of which live closer to san francisco than me. Something told me though to reply to a post on another forum asking if there was any other bay area insomniacs that wanted to chat despite the fact that I'm not in the bay area, which ultimately led to me being the one person out of 6 billion that got invited to go to san fran by an amazing guy. I know ultimately it is likely nothing will come out of it beyond an amazing weekend, but still, what a weekend it was. Now, for those of you who know me, you all know just how out of character it is for me to randomly chat with someone at all, much less someone who specifically said they were interested in someone in the bay area when I'm not. Now, I have two choices, I can believe that there was some higher power be it fate, or God, or Allah, or the spirits, whatever, were nudging me along to go out of character just that once... or I can believe that I honestly pulled off a one in 6 billion chance... and growing up in Nevada, I know a 49 in a 100 chance is still not going to end up with you winning that often, so I'm much more inclined to believe in the higher power.

I still also do practice Methodism, because it is a faith that is mostly honest and admits that we don't know all there is to know and because I enjoy the ceremony... I like the sermons and the songs and the fellowship... and if I'm never going to truly understand God anyway, might as well be with a group of friends while not understanding :p

Lace Neil Singer

07-03-2009, 05:03 PM

Slytovhand

07-03-2009, 06:20 PM

Smiley, nah... you need to change your maths there... no way is it actually 1 in 6billion...

But anyway, yes, I do believe that sometimes, we hear it right. (and, far too often, I ignore it :p)

1 in a million chances happen 9 times out of 10!

(FTR - I never believed in Santa Claus or an Easter Bunny... well, not until much later in life! :p)

I like the PERList idea... (I have a slight problem with 'physical evidence' though... for the time being... as I've indicated elsewhere)

Flyndaran

07-03-2009, 06:20 PM

I was raised a christian, but I stopped believing in God about the same time as I stopped believing in Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny. My parents never pressured me or tried to convert me; and still don't.

Maybe it's my early desire for storytelling, but I never believed in Santa or the Easter Bunny.

Lace Neil Singer

07-04-2009, 12:49 PM

I did as a child, til around five when I applied logic to both. My parents threatened me under pain of death not to ruin things for my little brothers. XD

RecoveringKinkoid

07-06-2009, 02:07 PM

Exactly. I've never understood why science and religion are seen as mutually exclusive.

Me neither. If anything, science stregnthens my faith, it doesn't erode it.

Slytovhand

07-06-2009, 02:31 PM

It is seen as exclusive, because some want to believe that any 'divine beings' must only operate outside the laws of physics... and some want to believe that physics must never have influences from anything that can't be measured with physical devices.

Basically, people want to keep the two seperate.

protege

07-06-2009, 03:20 PM

My "turning away" from religion came...after I was told that I'd "never amount to anything" by some of the nuns when I was in elementary school. That's what started it. Well, that and my mother dragging me to church every Sunday and threatening "bad things will happen" if I didn't go :rolleyes: Throw in that most "religious" types (at least locally), seemed to be the most uptight, anal-retentive people on the planet...it's no wonder that I'm more or less an atheist.

IvorTangrean

07-06-2009, 07:33 PM

I was raised atheist, I think my parents have a Bible in the house. If they do it is in a trunk in the basement that is used as a printer station. Besides weddings, funerals and my pre-school* I have only been to a church once or twice in my life.

* This particular church is pretty much a hall for rent with a cross on the roof, it sees far more use for other things than a church.

Flyndaran

07-08-2009, 07:20 PM

Me neither. If anything, science stregnthens my faith, it doesn't erode it.

That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Faith is believing in something, despite the evidence. Science is believing something, BECAUSE of the evidence. They are not similar.

BroomJockey

07-08-2009, 07:47 PM

Faith is believing in something, despite the evidence. Science is believing something, BECAUSE of the evidence. They are not similar.

No they're not similar, but I think your definition of "faith" is slightly off. Faith is believing in something "despite a lack of evidence" is a bit more correct. If there's direct contradiction to the existence of something, it's no longer faith, it's wilful ignorance.

To you, to believe in something without evidence is anathema. To others, if it's not disproven, then it's faith to believe it's true. Further, faith and science technically do not have to be exclusionary. Faith is supposed to cover spiritual matters, aka "matters of the heart." Science covers the physical world. As long as you don't try to combine them, they're not not at odds. Further, due to the scientific method, you cannot prove God doesn't exist. Some people take that intrinsic doubt that science provides, and say "since there is no proof, and cannot be proof, I shall believe."

Obviously, due to your complete inability to have faith, it doesn't apply to you, but logically, you surely must admit that with the proper definitions, and keeping things to the realms they are meant to cover, someone's faith doesn't undermine your science, even if you can't understand that faith?

Flyndaran

07-08-2009, 09:34 PM

No they're not similar, but I think your definition of "faith" is slightly off. Faith is believing in something "despite a lack of evidence" is a bit more correct. If there's direct contradiction to the existence of something, it's no longer faith, it's wilful ignorance.
...
That seems like religion to me, willful ignorance. Dead things stay dead. Believing that someone or heck everyone has, can, or will pop back up is wrong acording to the evidence all around us. It takes faith to believe that our surroundings are all lies.
No one really has faith that it will rain tomorrow. They only have faith in the absurd things, like souls, miracles, reincarnation, etc.

Obviously, due to your complete inability to have faith, it doesn't apply to you, but logically, you surely must admit that with the proper definitions, and keeping things to the realms they are meant to cover, someone's faith doesn't undermine your science, even if you can't understand that faith?

I don't like the very existance of magical thinking, superstitions, etc. Their very nature fights all logical thinking, and therefore scientific analysis.
If something exists, then it can be studied scientifically. If it can't be measured and explained, then it doesn't exist.

Nyoibo

07-09-2009, 01:58 AM

...
That seems like religion to me, willful ignorance. Dead things stay dead. Believing that someone or heck everyone has, can, or will pop back up is wrong acording to the evidence all around us. It takes faith to believe that our surroundings are all lies.
No one really has faith that it will rain tomorrow. They only have faith in the absurd things, like souls, miracles, reincarnation, etc.

Dead things don't stay dead, people who have been, what 50-100 years ago dead, are brought back to life with defibrilators and adrenalin, medical advances have made this possible, and who's to say souls don't exist? just because we have no conventional way of measuring them yet, which brings me to ...

I don't like the very existance of magical thinking, superstitions, etc. Their very nature fights all logical thinking, and therefore scientific analysis.
If something exists, then it can be studied scientifically. If it can't be measured and explained, then it doesn't exist.

Bull, a few hundred years ago most of what exists couldn't be studied measured or explained, to use "logic" as you cling to then that means, that because they couldn't be measured or explained then things like atoms, electrons, hell even sarcomeres and such in muscles, didn't exist, hell we don't know what most of our brain is used for, it can't be explained, want to tell me that it doesn't exist?

Boozy

07-09-2009, 11:44 AM

Their very nature fights all logical thinking, and therefore scientific analysis. If something exists, then it can be studied scientifically. If it can't be measured and explained, then it doesn't exist.

I really have to agree with Nyoibo. Quantum physics is very illogical; at least it is to us. It might make sense to a life form smarter than us. But I don't think that we can say with any certainty that if something doesn't make sense to us, it can't exist. We're very limited in our ability to understand the universe. If our we can't process something logically, that could very well be our brain's limitations.

I'm not a religious person, but I am able to recognize that humanity knows less than we tell ourselves, and there are things we will probably never know. We're ants in the universe. Not only can ants not understand the workings of a computer, they cannot even comprehend that such a thing could exist. They don't have the brains necessary to understand and appreciate the wonders of the world.

Flyndaran

07-09-2009, 09:16 PM

Dead things don't stay dead, people who have been, what 50-100 years ago dead, are brought back to life with defibrilators and adrenalin, medical advances have made this possible, and who's to say souls don't exist? just because we have no conventional way of measuring them yet, which brings me to ...
...

Dead is brain death which no one ever recovers from. It is not mostly dead like from heart failure, comas, hypothermia, etc.
If there is no evidence for its existance despite some whackos real attempts at study, then it almost certainly doesn't exist. Hope cannot dictate reality.

Flyndaran

07-09-2009, 09:19 PM

...
Bull, a few hundred years ago most of what exists couldn't be studied measured or explained, to use "logic" as you cling to then that means, that because they couldn't be measured or explained then things like atoms, electrons, hell even sarcomeres and such in muscles, didn't exist, hell we don't know what most of our brain is used for, it can't be explained, want to tell me that it doesn't exist?

Of course reality can be explained. Why do you think it can't. We don't know everything. Atoms can so be measured, so can sarcomeres, and what most of the brain does. I think you should research more before making claims.
What is truly unexplainable? Not just unexplained now, but truly violates some rule of evidence you seem to believe in?

Flyndaran

07-09-2009, 09:22 PM

I really have to agree with Nyoibo. Quantum physics is very illogical; at least it is to us. It might make sense to a life form smarter than us. But I don't think that we can say with any certainty that if something doesn't make sense to us, it can't exist. We're very limited in our ability to understand the universe. If our we can't process something logically, that could very well be our brain's limitations.
....

I never said that if something doesn't make sense it doesn't exist. It has to do with evidence. There is evidence for the whacky world of quantum space. There is none for souls, magic, etc. There is evidence against such.

We are not monkeys. Human minds can conceive of at least the basics of reality. The actual math may be hard to impossible for most to understand. But that is quite different. It certainly doesn't need the invocation of magic or religion to spackle over what we don't know.

telecom_goddess

07-09-2009, 11:22 PM

I don't fit the mold for most atheists. I did not come to it after years of education and "soul" searching. I was born this way and can't be anything else.
I feel like a tiny minority inside a minority.

Anybody else like this or am I really a minority of one?

ME!!! I have always been an atheist and will never be anything else.:cool:

Nyoibo

07-10-2009, 02:00 AM

Of course reality can be explained. Why do you think it can't. We don't know everything. Atoms can so be measured, so can sarcomeres, and what most of the brain does. I think you should research more before making claims.
What is truly unexplainable? Not just unexplained now, but truly violates some rule of evidence you seem to believe in?

I think you should read my post before making claims, I said in years before these things couldn't be measured, they didn't even know they existed, that didn't mean they didn't exist, now, say in 50 years time, when technology is way ahead of where it is now they actually can measure something that turns out to be a soul, then what, it suddenly exists because it can be measured, or it always existed?

There is evidence for the whacky world of quantum space. There is none for souls, magic, etc. There is evidence against such.

Once upon a time there was evidence that the world was flat, the greatest minds of the time taught as such, didn't make it real.

Flyndaran

07-10-2009, 06:19 AM

...
Once upon a time there was evidence that the world was flat, the greatest minds of the time taught as such, didn't make it real.

Bullsnot. No sensible person ever believed that the earth was round for thousands of years.
I'm getting tired of this. I think we've hit a dead end. You will continue to believe in magic no matter what I say. I will continue to disbelieve magic.
There's no point in continuing to run around this topic.

Besides this is all off topic for my initial question.

Slytovhand

07-10-2009, 06:09 PM

Staying on topic, and keeping this line of enquiry going....

I see no need to distinguish between sciences and religion... they have their ends of the same spectrum. What's 'magic' today, will be 'science' tomorrow. (although, the question of 'god' will remain open until the end of time). So, I'm presuming this thread isn't merely about the existence of deity, but also 'supernatural'.

Flyn, Nyoibo said 'once upon a time'.. he didn't indicate what time that was, so his statement stands correct.

Flyn, what's your definition of 'magic'? Cos, I think that's a large part of the argument...because, if you say 'anything that purports to operate outside the laws of physics', then you'll probably be surprised with a few people here agreeing with you... we just don't think we've worked out all the 'laws' yet... simple!

Nyoibo

07-10-2009, 07:44 PM

You will continue to believe in magic no matter what I say. I will continue to disbelieve magic.

Never said I believed in it.

Kalli

07-11-2009, 04:58 AM

This is interesting. As far as I was concerned, it's the norm to be born atheist, and less common (but not entirely unusual) to be born into a religious belief.

Maybe in Australia (or just the area I grew up?) it's the norm to be raise atheist. Only about 30% of the people I know are religious, and only about 10% of THOSE people actively practice their religion.

I must confess, (and I realise this is a character flaw of mine), as soon as I find out someone I know is religious, my respect for them just drops to the floor, and I can't really bring myself to pay them much heed after that. I suddenly think they're stupid. lol.

Flyndaran

07-11-2009, 07:37 AM

...
Flyn, Nyoibo said 'once upon a time'.. he didn't indicate what time that was, so his statement stands correct.!
Then that means he was threadcrapping with a non sequitor. We were talking about logic and science, not what all of freakin' human history.

...Flyn, what's your definition of 'magic'? Cos, I think that's a large part of the argument...because, if you say 'anything that purports to operate outside the laws of physics', then you'll probably be surprised with a few people here agreeing with you... we just don't think we've worked out all the 'laws' yet... simple!

We have located every force/superforce that exists outside of a black hole. Magic requires the use of forces that don't exist to science. Not just that which isn't known, but that which ignores and violates everything the study of physics have learned.

Flyndaran

07-11-2009, 07:39 AM

This is interesting. As far as I was concerned, it's the norm to be born atheist, and less common (but not entirely unusual) to be born into a religious belief.

Maybe in Australia (or just the area I grew up?) it's the norm to be raise atheist. Only about 30% of the people I know are religious, and only about 10% of THOSE people actively practice their religion.
....

I care just as much as what they profess to believe as what they actually practice. When faced with adversity, it's frightening how many non-religious or even atheists will suddenly "find god".
It's human nature, and have yet to meet many atheists that can't flip that switch.

Kalli

07-11-2009, 12:50 PM

It's human nature, and have yet to meet many atheists that can't flip that switch.

I couldn't. I also know quite a number of people who couldn't either.

Also, switch those 2 percentages around, I meant 10% of the people I know are religious and 30% of those practice. Not that it matters much.

Nyoibo

07-11-2009, 12:51 PM

Then that means he was threadcrapping with a non sequitor. We were talking about logic and science, not what all of freakin' human history.

We have located every force/superforce that exists outside of a black hole. Magic requires the use of forces that don't exist to science. Not just that which isn't known, but that which ignores and violates everything the study of physics have learned.

So what you're saying is that we're at the pinacle of scientific study and evolution.

And before you say no it isn't, yes it is, you just said we've found every force that exists outside of a black hole, therefore theres nothing left and that logic and science of today cannot be surpassed.

Slytovhand

07-11-2009, 03:25 PM

I care just as much as what they profess to believe as what they actually practice. When faced with adversity, it's frightening how many non-religious or even atheists will suddenly "find god".
It's human nature, and have yet to meet many atheists that can't flip that switch.

Which reminds me of something my ex-Tai Qi instructor used to say: "Show me a pacifist, and I'll show you a liar. Try to push them in front of a train, and see how they react".

Flyndaran

07-11-2009, 08:20 PM

I couldn't. I also know quite a number of people who couldn't either.
....

Where do you live? I may not be a social butterfly, but I have trouble imagining that many such atheists here in oregon.

...
And before you say no it isn't, yes it is, you just said we've found every force that exists outside of a black hole, therefore theres nothing left and that logic and science of today cannot be surpassed.

Every fundamental force, yes, but not every aspect of how they interact, not every object utilizing them, not every quirky work-around, etc. I think it's obvious that you are misrepresenting my position.

Which reminds me of something my ex-Tai Qi instructor used to say: "Show me a pacifist, and I'll show you a liar. Try to push them in front of a train, and see how they react".

I don't like absolute when discussing humanity as a whole.
But absolute non-violent people are a very very small minority.

Kalli

07-12-2009, 02:19 AM

Where do you live? I may not be a social butterfly, but I have trouble imagining that many such atheists here in oregon.

Australia. I mentioned that in the post you quoted. In fact, it was kind of the basis of my whole post; that being born atheist is very much the norm over here.

Red_Dazes

08-03-2009, 07:11 PM

I was born into a strong Christian family... and it drove me away from religion. I've spent the last many years researching and studying religion in general, anything I can get my hands on about nearly every religion I can find. At the same time I have studied science, and Logic. from this I have formed my own systems of beliefs, I'll not bother you with them because they are my own, but I think that people should be allowed to believe what ever they chose. I have no religion, but I don't consider myself and atheist even though most people do.

But I have known so many people who were born and raised Atheists, their entire families are atheists. So you are not alone Flyn *pat pat*