8 Year Old Rape Victim Abandoned by her Family

[ThePhoneGoddess]

http://www.kxmc.com/News/410300.asp

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iuEVz2wzCQhOuO9806ZEyMzCdu2QD99L6A700

http://law.rightpundits.com/?p=648


Here are a couple of links on this. An 8 year old girl in Phoenix was brutally raped by 4 teenage boys. The victim and all the accused are Liberian refugees. The police say that when the girl's Father was told what happened, he told the police to take her away with them, that he didn't want her because she brought shame upon the family. She is now in custody of CPS. The story is getting nationwide coverage and people are of course venting their outrage on blogs and other opinion sites.

I am interested to see what will happen. I am sure the family will receive death threats and other such stuff.

[daleduke17]

Wouldn't this fall under the Constitution as a Freedom of Religion or Expression?

As long as the family signs the paperwork turning her over to the state (or whoever) then let them. People can vent their frustration all they want about the family, but they have to remember that the same Constitution that allows them to bitch allows the family to do this.

[Boozy]

I'm very much in support of allowing them to abandon their child to state care, as much as the whole thing breaks my heart. I'm praying that this little girl is placed with a foster family who has the love and resources to help her deal with the trauma and support her as she grows.

Any parents who would abandon their daughter, no matter what their culture or religion says, is not deserving of that child. I try my best to understand the cultural motives behind what I would normally consider to be bizarre behaviour, but I seriously cannot wrap my head around this one. There are some things that can be explained by cultural relativism, and then there are things that every member of the human race should agree upon. Child rape should be one of those things.

[BroomJockey]

Child rape should be one of those things.

It's not that it's child rape, it's that she was raped period. Would have been the same if she was 18, or 25. She's "unclean" and "not fit for a husband." I agree though, if that's the attitude they're taking, she's better off _anywhere_ else, since in some cases, it can lead to immolation in an attempt to purge the shame and taint, either forced on by the family, or self-done because of all the means people use to grind other humans in to piles of misery.

[Greenday]

Wouldn't this fall under the Constitution as a Freedom of Religion or Expression?

Yea, they have that freedom and I agree with those freedoms. But that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

[Talon]

"What good are honours from such people?" - K-19: The Widowmaker

'Nuff said.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I find it interesting people feel they have the 'freedom' to abandon her.

Remember this thread?
http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=699

The whole reason that law was abused was because Americans can be punished if they abandon their children. So...families that are American cannot hand their children over to CPS without facing charges, but since this family comes from another culture, it's ok?

[BlaqueKatt]

Wouldn't this fall under the Constitution as a Freedom of Religion or Expression?

nope because none of those articles mentioned religion, only "culture"-which I'm sorry-you moved to a different country with a different culture-you do not get to keep your own*.

Also if you follow a religion that advocates human sacrifice is that protected? What about the cults that advocated child rape? Remember the country their from it's "custom" that if any woman is raped she is the one punished and her attacker goes totally free.


*if a person chooses to move to another country to live permanently-they should adapt to that culture rather than claim their "cultural identity" is somehow "sacred" and therefore "better" than the one in the country they chose to move to.

Kinda like the old adage "while you live under my roof, you live by my rules".

on my father's side I'm first generation off the boat(Sicily), my mom's side second generation off the boat(Germany/Denmark)-do I or any members of my family cling to the ways of the "old country"-nope not a one-we accepted that we choose to come here and become a part of this culture-not "pick and choose"-i.e. we want a better life, but don't want to conform in any manner. Sorry I'm just tired of all this PC bull$hit. If I go to another country I will respect whatever the "cultural norm" is there-but I don't have to accept it here.

Especially when I read a news story (http://www.channel3000.com/news/13680843/detail.html) about a woman in my city (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1868047/posts) who took her 6 week old infant by the ankles and bashed her skull against a table, after 3 months of horrible abuse, because in her "culture" girls were worthless-and "she only had enough love to give her son". And the outrage of the community that the mother was charged with murder and "taken away from her son who needed her"-they didn't see anything wrong in what she did because it was "part of their culture" to do that sort of thing.

and due to further searching this wasn't the first baby (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-62580962.html) she killed

[DesignFox]

I have to remember to stop browsing this site before bed. I'm prone to terrible nightmares as it is.

This story combined with the mention of the stories blaquekatt just posted (I didn't read them- just the descriptions) are beyond disturbing and heartbreaking.

And I agree 100%- you move to my country, you follow my country's rules. You want to benefit from my government? You want to benefit from my tax dollars if you're on social/government/whatever assistance, cause you just moved here to escape depression and war? Fine. No problem. I'll welcome you with open arms and help you get back on your feet. But leave the bullshit you ran away from to begin with back there. You don't like our culture, you can go back where you came from.

[anriana]

nope because none of those articles mentioned religion, only "culture"-which I'm sorry-you moved to a different country with a different culture-you do not get to keep your own*.

And how do you differentiate between culture and religion?

*if a person chooses to move to another country to live permanently-they should adapt to that culture rather than claim their "cultural identity" is somehow "sacred" and therefore "better" than the one in the country they chose to move to.

Kinda like the old adage "while you live under my roof, you live by my rules".

on my father's side I'm first generation off the boat(Sicily), my mom's side second generation off the boat(Germany/Denmark)-do I or any members of my family cling to the ways of the "old country"-nope not a one-we accepted that we choose to come here and become a part of this culture-not "pick and choose"-i.e. we want a better life, but don't want to conform in any manner. Sorry I'm just tired of all this PC bull$hit. If I go to another country I will respect whatever the "cultural norm" is there-but I don't have to accept it here.

I find it odd that you're so happy your family is abandoning their heritage. I am quite saddeneded that, having abandoned their ethnic culture, my family has left me only a religion I don't practice as my cultural heritage.

And what exactly is the American culture that your family has so happily embraced? I'm sure it's quite different from my (Kentuckian) family's culture, my culture, my (Floridian) family's culture, etc.


Especially when I read a news story (http://www.channel3000.com/news/13680843/detail.html) about a woman in my city (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1868047/posts) who took her 6 week old infant by the ankles and bashed her skull against a table, after 3 months of horrible abuse, because in her "culture" girls were worthless-and "she only had enough love to give her son". And the outrage of the community that the mother was charged with murder and "taken away from her son who needed her"-they didn't see anything wrong in what she did because it was "part of their culture" to do that sort of thing.

and due to further searching this wasn't the first baby (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-62580962.html) she killed


I just finished reading a book on the Hmong called The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down. It's about the care that a Hmong family gives their epileptic daughter and the care that her doctors give her and goes into the history/culture of the Hmong quite a bit. It is in no way part of Hmong culture to kill female infants. We might as well point to Andrea Yates and say killing children is part of American culture.


Two hundred years ago the Chinese government drove many of the Hmongs out of China and they resettled as rice farmers living on isolated mountaintops in South East Asia. They lived there undisturbed by the lowlanders until America came along and massively bombed the entire region, especially the mountains. The CIA also recruited mass amounts of men to fight against Vietnam and promised them money, land, animals, etc. Now Hmong people have a "choice" between living in refugee camps in Thailand and coming to a country that destroyed their way of life and then promised to rebuilt it in exchange for a generation of Hmong men.


Does this mean infantcide is justifiable? No, the law applies to everyone, but I don't think you could have picked a worse ethnic group to malign for adhering to their own culture. The Hmong didn't come to America for a better life; they came because America forces destroyed their own way of life.


And I agree 100%- you move to my country, you follow my country's rules. You want to benefit from my government? You want to benefit from my tax dollars if you're on social/government/whatever assistance, cause you just moved here to escape depression and war? Fine. No problem. I'll welcome you with open arms and help you get back on your feet. But leave the bullshit you ran away from to begin with back there. You don't like our culture, you can go back where you came from.

I don't like American culture. Where should I go?

[Flyndaran]

A culture is made up of so much more than horrific acts criminal in the western world. I think we should not fall into saying that it's the culture itself that is backwards, wrong, or immoral.

Nations of the western world were, are, and will be made greater by the influx of foreigners.

[tabbyblack13]

There are many cultures that blame women for being raped. There are people in America that believes this too.

The thing is I wonder what the boys were taught and if they were in Liberian when they were younger. I think in one of the articles that ThePhoneGoddess provide the Uncle of two of the boy said he couldn't believe that these boys did this. I can because if a child was raised in that environment even for a short while it will affect what they do in the future. This doesn't make an excuse for the boys but maybe something can be done to prevent this in the future.

As for the girl. Her family doesn't want her so a family that wants her should be allowed to adopt her. She might not be able to hold onto her Liberian culture but it might be better for her. The mental abuse the she has sustained will be with her the rest of her life. She will need help in the future to deal with this as she becomes older.

[BroomJockey]

I don't like American culture. Where should I go?
Canada? UK? Australia?
but since this family comes from another culture, it's ok?

No, Americans should have that right too. It's like putting a kid up for adoption. However, if you're putting a kid up to CPS willingly, and not directly for adoption, then you get your wages garnished. If you're not making any cash, your benefits are cut. And the cash goes to help support the kid until/unless he or she is adopted. That should cut down on people doing it "just because they don't want the kid any more."

[Greenday]

Canada? UK? Australia?

Because they are so drastically different from the US. :rolleyes:

[Boozy]

Because they are so drastically different from the US. :rolleyes:

You have no idea.

Many times while travelling in the States, I have felt like I was on another planet.

[BroomJockey]

Because they are so drastically different from the US.

Every time I come on this board, I'm astounded just how dissimilar they are.

The most apparent difference to me? The US has a deep, abiding distrust for its government. Canadians bitch and moan about our government, but I don't think we actually think we need to protect ourselves from our government. You don't hear Canadians talking about Nanny States.

[Rapscallion]

We complain about a nanny state from time to time, but generally speaking if we don't like the wankers enough we try to blow them up. Sort of the Fawke/McVeigh syndrome.

More seriously, we just let them talk about each other in front of cameras all the time, and we just get on with enjoying ourselves while the idiots don't realise there's nobody but the die-hards listening.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

The most apparent difference to me? The US has a deep, abiding distrust for its government.

For me, it's everything. Americans and Canadians think differently about food, sex, time, work, alcohol, money, clothes, and decorating. All those little things that create a culture. The way we think about religion and government are the big things, but it's the little stuff that gives me the "I'm a stranger in a foreign land" feeling when I'm in the US.

[AFPheonix]

For me, it's everything. Americans and Canadians think differently about food, sex, time, work, alcohol, money, clothes, and decorating. All those little things that create a culture. The way we think about religion and government are the big things, but it's the little stuff that gives me the "I'm a stranger in a foreign land" feeling when I'm in the US.

I get that more when I go to the eastern part of Canada. I think I even told my Mom last time we visited family over in Ontario, "oh my god, we're in a different country!" :D
Because I have family up there, I visit Edmonton and Onion Lake and Victoria every year to once every few years. Besides better breakfasts at McD's and maple leaves on everything, I don't think it feels terribly different than the Pacific Northwest. Victoria especially feels a lot like Washington/Oregon.

I find it interesting people feel they have the 'freedom' to abandon her.

Remember this thread?
http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=699

The whole reason that law was abused was because Americans can be punished if they abandon their children. So...families that are American cannot hand their children over to CPS without facing charges, but since this family comes from another culture, it's ok?
I didn't see anyone arguing for punishment for the American families that handed their kid over. I see a lot of discussion about providing help for overwhelmed parents so they can resume their parenting duties.

In this case, I do support allowing removal of the kid, because chances are, if they were forced to keep her she may end up the result of an honor killing. Get her far, far away, and in time, as the children assimilate into the culture (which they tend to do pretty well) the bad parts of the culture will die off with the parents.
That Google article was actually quite good. We forget sometimes that Liberia has been an absolute hellhole the last few decades with 2 civil wars and a dictatorship under Charles Taylor. They have elected their first female president and I've listened to interviews with her. She sounds like a pretty wonderful woman. I hope she can enact some sweeping change there.

[Nyoibo]

And how do you differentiate between culture and religion?


Are you serious? :confused:


Because they are so drastically different from the US. :rolleyes:

Hey! ... oh wait, damn television.

[BroomJockey]

Because I have family up there, I visit Edmonton

Hey! Next time you're on your way up, lemme know! We should have... well, not coffee, since I don't drink that :p but something! It'll be fun! :D

[BlaqueKatt]

And how do you differentiate between culture and religion?

is Catholicism a culture-nope it's a religion-in some cultures you are only allowed one child due to overpopulation-is that because of religion? They are not interchangeable.

Culture-the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.


I find it odd that you're so happy your family is abandoning their heritage.

I should be proud that my ancestors happened to be born in a particular country rather than another particular country? That seems extremely silly.

According to Sicilian "culture/tradition" I was supposed to have an arranged marriage to my cousin to keep the family money in the family-yeah that's something to embrace wholeheartedly :rolleyes: especially as he believed that smacking your wife around was acceptable as in Sicilian "culture" it is acceptable.

It is in no way part of Hmong culture to kill female infants.
According to the people of Hmong descent living here and defending her actions it is(we have a very large Hmong population-I know several of them-one girl explained to me that if she didn't bear her husband enough sons he could get as many other wives as he wanted because she was "defective", and if anything happened to him she went to his brother as "property")

[AFPheonix]

Hey! Next time you're on your way up, lemme know! We should have... well, not coffee, since I don't drink that :p but something! It'll be fun! :D

Ha ha! My mom is flying up tomorrow to visit her brothers, and was whining that I wasn't coming. Not my fault she didn't give me any warning and that I've already used up my vacation days for the year :p
And chances are next year I'll be using up my vacation goin' down to Tulsa for World Show.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I don't like American culture. Where should I go?

Well, uh, with respect, you have an entire "rest of the planet" to choose from, and a plethora of lovely airports.

What do you want us to say? :confused:

[Flyndaran]

Well, uh, with respect, you have an entire "rest of the planet" to choose from, and a plethora of lovely airports.

What do you want us to say? :confused:

As an american it should be assumed that we are unwilling to learn a second language. I say that with a bit of seriousness.

[BroomJockey]

As an american it should be assumed that we are unwilling to learn a second language. I say that with a bit of seriousness.

I say again, Canada, UK, Australia...

[Flyndaran]

I say again, Canada, UK, Australia...

Is it really as severe there as it is here? Immigrant families lose thier original language within about three generations. They may make a slang or creole that sounds like thier original.

[BroomJockey]

Is it really as severe there as it is here? Immigrant families lose thier original language within about three generations.

I can't speak for Australia, never having been there, but you can get by as a monolingual English speaker in the UK (visited twice, for a week each time), and in Canada. Canada's good about multiculturalism, rather than melting pot, but stick to Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, or Ontario and you can go weeks without hearing anything but English, if you stay to certain areas.

[anriana]

Well, uh, with respect, you have an entire "rest of the planet" to choose from, and a plethora of lovely airports.

What do you want us to say? :confused:

Well, uh, with respect, my point was that you seem to have a problem with people who don't share your culture taking your precious tax dollars. Since I don't participate in American culture, do you have a preference for which country I should go to?


Are you serious? :confused:


No, I was being totally sarcastic!

is Catholicism a culture-nope it's a religion-

Okay, so is Mardi Gras a cultural or a religious event?
Christmas?
Easter?
Halloween?


in some cultures you are only allowed one child due to overpopulation-is that because of religion?

No, but the only "culture" I can think of where that is the case is China, where it's the law, not the culture. I am not familiar with any Chinese immigrants who go to other countries and then don't want to have more than one child because it's their culture.

Culture-the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.

That sounds a lot like religion to me. Is the difference that religion is written down formally and culture isn't?

According to the people of Hmong descent living here and defending her actions it is(we have a very large Hmong population-I know several of them-one girl explained to me that if she didn't bear her husband enough sons he could get as many other wives as he wanted because she was "defective",

What does that have to do with killing infants?

and if anything happened to him she went to his brother as "property")

Hey, that sounds exactly like the Scripture of the religion that the majority of Americans follow!


If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her.

-Deuteronomy 25:5

[BroomJockey]

No, I was being totally sarcastic!

Now, someone with a less finely tuned sense than I might not be able to tell, but this time, she is in fact being sarcastic. By extension, I'd suggest the other time was serious.

[Peppergirl]

Now, someone with a less finely tuned sense than I might not be able to tell, but this time, she is in fact being sarcastic. By extension, I'd suggest the other time was serious.


Being sarcastic about being sarcastic? :)

I'm so confused, but will allow that I get confused easily. :D

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, uh, with respect, my point was that you seem to have a problem with people who don't share your culture taking your precious tax dollars.




Considering that that was the first time I've posted on this thread, that is a fascinating observation.



Since I don't participate in American culture, do you have a preference for which country I should go to?




If you live in the states, then I'm afraid you participate in some facet of American Culture.

Yes, I have a preference. But I doubt seriously that it would be your preference.

As many things that suck about our country, the one thing that doesn't is that we have a lot of airports. We do have a border patrol, such as it is. However, they tend to try to keep folks out, not in, and they can't even manage to do that very well. You will not have to swim a river or be smuggled by unpleasant people carrying guns. In fact, anyone can leave this country via the first class section of a luxury airliner and a one way ticket. Spin a globe and stick a pin. Sip a martini as you fly off into the sunset. The world is your oyster.

Seriously. I notice that of all the people who whine about how they'd rather live somewhere else, nobody ever seems to be willing to move. That seems to be a pretty prevalent Americal cultural thing. It reaches a fever pitch every time we approach an election. :rolleyes:

[BlaqueKatt]

Okay, so is Mardi Gras a cultural or a religious event?
Christmas?
Easter?
Halloween?

all of those were originally religious but they changed over time-and not all religions celebrate them and not all people celebrate them-plus there are non-religious ways to celebrate them. What about weddings-I got married in Las Vegas in a chapel, I was previously married by a judge-your argument does not hold water.

That sounds a lot like religion to me. Is the difference that religion is written down formally and culture isn't?

um try again

religion-a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Culture-the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group

also
the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.

is farming a religion? Some groups have a culture based around farming, some based on hunting or craftsmanship-does that make them religions-no it makes them cultures. A religion can be part of a culture but it is not the culture itself.

A wheel(religion) is part of a bicycle(culture) but it is not the bicycle itself.

does Russia have no culture as they had no religion for quite some time(hint it was outlawed)


another key difference between the two is change-religion does not change culture does.

200 years ago in American culture it was culturally acceptable to own slaves, now it is not.
100 years ago in American culture it was culturally unacceptable for a woman in America to wear a dress above the ankle.
50 years ago in American culture it was culturally acceptable to have segregated schools.
20 years ago in American culture it was culturally unacceptable to be an unwed mother.
10 years ago in American culture it was culturally unacceptable to have visible tattoos or body piercings.

that's called "culture shift"-it's because the younger generations are growing up and passing their ideals onto the next generation-which is the very definition of culture.

2000 years ago in the Christian religion Jesus was accepted by the Christians as the son of God or the Messiah-has that changed at all? Anything you can think of that has changed in any religion in the last 200 years?




Hey, that sounds exactly like the Scripture of the religion that the majority of Americans follow!


yes but how many Christians actually follow it-answer-zero-and how many Hmong are Christian-it's also part of the culture in parts of Africa-also with a low Christian population-just because something is part of one culture and part of another's religion does not mean religion=culture.

[anriana]

all of those were originally religious but they changed over time-and not all religions celebrate them and not all people celebrate them
-plus there are non-religious ways to celebrate them.

So is your argument that they are cultural now? Or that they're still religious? You made both points...

[BroomJockey]

Seriously. I notice that of all the people who whine about how they'd rather live somewhere else, nobody ever seems to be willing to move. That seems to be a pretty prevalent Americal cultural thing. It reaches a fever pitch every time we approach an election. :rolleyes:

Yep. I had friends on both sides of the political spectrum hitting me up for a spot on the couch if the other side won.


My couch is amazingly enough, still empty.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

My couch is amazingly enough, still empty.



Imagine that. Stop the frigging presses. :rolleyes:

[Ree]

And how do you differentiate between culture and religion?

<snip>


I don't like American culture. Where should I go?Unless "American" is a religion, I think you answered your own question.

[DesignFox]

Considering that that was the first time I've posted on this thread, that is a fascinating observation.


I think the comment about tax dollars was supposed to be aimed at me, and I think it was taken a bit more seriously than it was intended.

I pay taxes to help people who need a lift in life (partially, that's also what I donate to charity for). You want my money, you play by the rules. I don't contribute so people can kill babies, rape, murder, or otherwise upset the applecart and cry "my culture says so!" Sorry. NO. You moved HERE. You play by OUR rules. Or you go BACK where you came from.

Here's an extreme example:
I won't go to the Middle East. Know why? Well, I'm female, and I sort of have a problem with people telling me I have to cover myself, it's my fault if some dirtbag rapes me, or that my husband has a right to burn my face off if I piss him off. I'll stay here. Thanks. I don't like their rules. So I won't even visit, let alone move there.

You don't get to come here and break the law and then claim that your cultural or religious background protects you.

[Flyndaran]

...
2000 years ago in the Christian religion Jesus was accepted by the Christians as the son of God or the Messiah-has that changed at all? Anything you can think of that has changed in any religion in the last 200 years?
....

Are you joking about this, or do you really believe that christian sects haven't changed in the last two centuries?
Religion was used to promote slavery, and sexism. That changed quite a bit.

As an atheist I see a HUGE difference between culture and religion.
I can celebrate halloween as a party, without believing in magical life after death.

[anriana]

Unless "American" is a religion, I think you answered your own question.

The aspects of American culture I dislike are almost all tied into the Christian heritage... so...

[Nyoibo]

Okay, so is Mardi Gras a cultural or a religious event?
Christmas?
Easter?
Halloween?


Firstly, whose mardi gras?
Christmas, religious, it's to celebrate the birth of Christ.
Easter, religious, to mourne/celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ.
Halloween, it depends on who and where you are, whether you celebrate it as Samhain, all saints day or just candy timeor if you even celebrate it at all.


Unless "American" is a religion,


Well there are some real weirdos out there.



You don't get to come here and break the law and then claim that your cultural or religious background protects you.

"When in Rome"

[Flyndaran]

...

Seriously. I notice that of all the people who whine about how they'd rather live somewhere else, nobody ever seems to be willing to move. That seems to be a pretty prevalent Americal cultural thing. It reaches a fever pitch every time we approach an election. :rolleyes:

I see a disgusting number of problems with america. But I won't move away and admit defeat. I want to be a part of fixing it.

[Rapscallion]

"When in Rome"

...cross the roads quickly. Trust me on this. Look both ways and ways you didn't know existed before doing so. Many times.

You'll thank me for this advice.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

All you have to do to cross a street in Rome is wait for a bunch of nuns to congregate on the corner, which they will do in very short order. You've been in Rome, you know this is true.

When they make a break for the other side, get in among them and go with them.

Ain't nobody gonna hit a nun in Rome. You hit a nun, you go straight to Hell.

[Flyndaran]

What's black and white and red all over? A nun hit by a car.
What's black and white, and black and white? A nun falling down the stairs.

[AFPheonix]

So is your argument that they are cultural now? Or that they're still religious? You made both points...

They can be both to various people. Also, different cultures celebrate those same holidays in different ways. So while the original reason for the holiday could have been religious in nature, and may have even been nabbed by another religion, our culture often dictates how we celebrate it.

[BlaqueKatt]

They can be both to various people. Also, different cultures celebrate those same holidays in different ways. So while the original reason for the holiday could have been religious in nature, and may have even been nabbed by another religion, our culture often dictates how we celebrate it.

exactly and all those examples were "Nabbed" by christians when Rome used Christianity to unify itself under a state religion-they figured it would be easier to transition to this "new" religion if the people could still keep and celebrate thier pagan holidays.

[BlaqueKatt]

Are you joking about this, or do you really believe that christian sects haven't changed in the last two centuries?
Religion was used to promote slavery, and sexism. That changed quite a bit.

and now it's used to promote denial of civil rights to another segment of the population-nothing's changed except the victims.

The basic tenets of religion(any and all) have not changed-however the tenets of society have.

[anriana]

that's called "culture shift"-it's because the younger generations are growing up and passing their ideals onto the next generation-which is the very definition of culture.

How is that any different from my parents (attempting) to pass xianity on to me?

2000 years ago in the Christian religion Jesus was accepted by the Christians as the son of God or the Messiah-has that changed at all? Anything you can think of that has changed in any religion in the last 200 years?

Mormonism made it okay for men of color to be ministers or gods or whatever.

Some Christian denominations have started accepting queer and/or female authority figures.

Many branches of Christianity didn't exist 200 years ago.


Religion was used to promote...sexism. That changed quite a bit.

Not familiar with Southern Baptism? Some aspects of religion don't change.

As an atheist I see a HUGE difference between culture and religion.
I can celebrate halloween as a party, without believing in magical life after death.

So that makes Halloween a cultural event for you. That doesn't invalidate its status as a religious event for Wiccans. Who decides what it is?

[Flyndaran]

...
The basic tenets of religion(any and all) have not changed-however the tenets of society have.

What practitioners call the basics change over time. People like to pretend that they believe exactly what theiir ancient past holy people believe. But they don't.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Mormonism made it okay for men of color to be ministers or gods or whatever.



:confused:





So that makes Halloween a cultural event for you. That doesn't invalidate its status as a religious event for Wiccans. Who decides what it is?

From my observations of the rest of the world, I'd say whoever's doing that particular bit of celebrating.

[BlaqueKatt]

How is that any different from my parents (attempting) to pass xianity on to me?

Because culture shift takes place on a national level.

you're actually trying to compare your parents trying to pass on their belief system to an entire generation banding together to eliminate a form of discrimination(segregation), and fight for cultural acceptance as equals?

Did your parents organize national protests to get you to accept their religion?

[anriana]

:confused:


I fail to see what is confusing there. Are you unfamiliar with Mormonism? Did you not understand the words or word order that I used?

Because culture shift takes place on a national level.

you're actually trying to compare your parents trying to pass on their belief system to an entire generation banding together to eliminate a form of discrimination(segregation), and fight for cultural acceptance as equals?

Did your parents organize national protests to get you to accept their religion?

That is a fairly broad stroke. Plenty of people opposed desegregation and in some places (rural kentucky at the least) that is still not the culture.


To clarify, I understand that the Eucharist is religious and apple pie is cultural. What I am confused on is the overlap of things - is celebrating holidays with religious origins that are still practiced as religious holidays by many Americans a cultural or a religious thing? Are "Judeo-Christian values" cultural or religious?

[BroomJockey]

What I am confused on is the overlap of things - is celebrating holidays with religious origins that are still practiced as religious holidays by many Americans a cultural or a religious thing? Are "Judeo-Christian values" cultural or religious?

"Judeo-Christian values" would be religious. Because they're Christian values. If they weren't religious, they'd just be someone's values. Holidays with religious origins can be practised in a secular fashion. It's the intent behind those.

I fail to see what is confusing there. Are you unfamiliar with Mormonism? Did you not understand the words or word order that I used?


Mormonism made it okay for men of color to be ministers or gods or whatever.


I think it's the word I've emphasized that provided the bulk of the issue, though your own use of "whatever" doesn't exactly inspire confidence in your own certainty, so how can you not expect others to be confused?

[Ree]

The aspects of American culture I dislike are almost all tied into the Christian heritage... so...Ummm...then that would be Christianity you are objecting to, and not the American culture.

You are the one confusing the two.

[anriana]

I think it's the word I've emphasized that provided the bulk of the issue, though your own use of "whatever" doesn't exactly inspire confidence in your own certainty, so how can you not expect others to be confused?


When "good" Mormon men die they go to their own planet and become "gods" but all they do is have lots of babies that are really ghost babies. Eventually the offspring take up too much ghost room so the male ghost children (of course) help create a new planet and then take a sister, turn into real people, and overpopulate the new planet with ghost babies. Black men couldn't do that because they were reincarnated bad people who could never be good in this lifetime. Other people of color might be able to depending on how dark they were. Once the civil rights movement happened God had a revelation (whatever) and suddenly that position changed.


There are a lot of issues with this idea, not the least of which is the idea that a god is someone who spends eternity making spiritual babies. Hence "gods or whatever."

http://www.ondoctrine.com/1mormo16.htm

"Judeo-Christian values" would be religious. Because they're Christian values. If they weren't religious, they'd just be someone's values. Holidays with religious origins can be practised in a secular fashion. It's the intent behind those.


So "In God We Trust," "One Nation Under God," "Endowed by Our Creater," etc, not part of American culture?

[anriana]

You are the one confusing the two.

welcome to the thread

[BroomJockey]

So "In God We Trust," "One Nation Under God," "Endowed by Our Creater," etc, not part of American culture?

As "One nation under God" is a recent addition, "our creator" does not assume the Christian God, only "In God We Trust" would be a valid query. And technically, no, I wouldn't consider that part of your culture. It's just on your money. That's like saying polar bears are a part of Canadian culture just because they're on our twoonie.

[Nyoibo]

That's like saying polar bears are a part of Canadian culture just because they're on our twoonie.

But I thought you all rode them to work and school. Way to ruin my dreams there. :(

[BroomJockey]

But I thought you all rode them to work and school. Way to ruin my dreams there. :(

Sorry, it's caribou. Not polar bears. Fewer people eaten by their mode of transportation.

[BlaqueKatt]

Sorry, it's caribou. Not polar bears. Fewer people eaten by their mode of transportation.


hmm so a moose would be like an SUV?


Not polar bears. Fewer people eaten by their mode of transportation.

But I thought polar bears drank coca-cola:eek:

You mean the TV lied to me :eek:

[BroomJockey]

But I thought polar bears drank coca-cola:eek:

You mean the TV lied to me :eek:

They drink Coca-cola. AND EAT THE SOULS OF THE LIVING.

[Ree]

welcome to the thread
Thanks, but I've been here for a while.

It's nice to be recognized, though. :)

[anriana]

As "One nation under God" is a recent addition, "our creator" does not assume the Christian God, only "In God We Trust" would be a valid query. And technically, no, I wouldn't consider that part of your culture. It's just on your money. That's like saying polar bears are a part of Canadian culture just because they're on our twoonie.

"under god" was added before my mother was born. that's not really "recent." there are many christians who consider these things to be part of the culture. are they wrong because a canadian disagrees with them?


when people say "omg learn our culture" what are they referring to?

[BroomJockey]

are they wrong because a canadian disagrees with them?


No, they're wrong because they're conflating religion and culture. And your definition of "recent" and mine are on different timelines. "Under God" was added in 1954. That's after WWII was finished. In terms of your nation's history, that's recent.

[anriana]

No, they're wrong because they're conflating religion and culture. And your definition of "recent" and mine are on different timelines. "Under God" was added in 1954. That's after WWII was finished. In terms of your nation's history, that's recent.



that's called "culture shift"-it's because the younger generations are growing up and passing their ideals onto the next generation-which is the very definition of culture.

So culture changes every ten years, or culture can't change in over 50 years?

[Flyndaran]

No, they're wrong because they're conflating religion and culture. And your definition of "recent" and mine are on different timelines. "Under God" was added in 1954. That's after WWII was finished. In terms of your nation's history, that's recent.

There is rarely even a fine line between the two. Religion affects culture and vice versa. Stuff that disagrees with one often gets thrown out without a care.

[BroomJockey]

So culture changes every ten years, or culture can't change in over 50 years?

Change over the course of a country's history is different than change over the course of a life. Look up how long your country had slavery, and segregation. If culture was changing every 10 years, wouldn't that have gone away more quickly?

[anriana]

That is the opposite of what blaquekatt said.

[Nyoibo]

Sorry, it's caribou. Not polar bears. Fewer people eaten by their mode of transportation.

Damn, that's not cool at all.

But I thought polar bears drank coca-cola:eek:


Here polar bears drink rum.

[Flyndaran]

...
Here polar bears drink rum.

Do you mean ursines, or just really hairy cold loving gay guys? ;)

[BroomJockey]

That is the opposite of what blaquekatt said.

Your point? I'm supposed to lock step with everything blaquekatt says?

Or, maybe the issue actually has some complexity to it? Could that be it, maybe, possibly? Just because people pass on culture to their children doesn't mean it radically shifts every time. Further, subcultures can and do shift and change rapidly, such as techies' or gamers' culture changing around a new event. Society's culture as a whole, however, tends to change very slowly. Less than a century ago, it was common for black people to not be allowed in the same schools as whites. Now all races co-mingle freely in schools. But it's still a big deal when a half-black man makes President, and when a Latina woman is put on the highest court. So, not as big a shift as it first seems.

Maybe, just maybe, different aspects of culture shift at different rates, and need to be observed independently of the whole to see the progression, but can still be taken as part of the whole, and passed on to each generation, despite the disparate nature of the period of shifts.

[Lachrymose]

Here polar bears drink rum.

So, does that mean the polar bears at the equator drink rum and Coke?

:p

[Nyoibo]

Do you mean ursines, or just really hairy cold loving gay guys? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQxusjtMtZI

So, does that mean the polar bears at the equator drink rum and Coke?

:p

Possibly, ours do.

[Flyndaran]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQxusjtMtZI

Hee. Though he did go out with the woman instead of one of the other guys.

[IDrinkaRum]

At least no one is blaming me for being a bad influence on the polar bears. :p

As for the "Under God" part of the Pledge of Allegiance, it was added in response to the rise of Communism and their "Godless Society". Don't forget - the Communists have no religion. (As Marx and Engels argue in The Communist Manifesto, religion is bad because it makes people "unequal" to each other and in Communism, everyone is equal). That was a culture thing, not a religion thing in my eyes.

[anriana]

Maybe, just maybe, different aspects of culture shift at different rates, and need to be observed independently of the whole to see the progression, but can still be taken as part of the whole, and passed on to each generation, despite the disparate nature of the period of shifts.

Maybe. Just maybe.

[BlaqueKatt]

That is the opposite of what blaquekatt said.

please don't put words into my mouth-or deliberately take things out of context just to argue.

To quote myself

"another key difference between the two is change-religion does not change culture does."

the rest was examples I pulled off the top of my head(there are tons more changes I could list but that would probably take 50 or more pages to list every single change over the last 200 years-that's what history textbooks are for actually) -because you were insistent that culture=religion


So culture changes every ten years, or culture can't change in over 50 years?

200 years, 100 years, 50 years, 20 years, 10 years-that's definatly not "every ten years" as you are claiming I said.

[Flyndaran]

Parts of a national culture, ie subcultures can and do change within years.
Look at when Dungeons and Dragons first came out in the seventies.
Look at when World Of Warcraft the MMORPG came out.

[anriana]

please don't put words into my mouth-or deliberately take things out of context just to argue.



Who would want to argue on this site.

[BlaqueKatt]

Who would want to argue on this site.

Um most of us like to argue what was actually said/typed-not make things up or misquote/misrepresent/take out of context. Bad form and all.

[lordlundar]

But I thought polar bears drank coca-cola:eek:

You mean the TV lied to me :eek:

Well I know one that drinks (well, practically inhales) 'Dew. (http://www.the-whiteboard.com/):D

[violetyoshi]

She is now in custody of CPS. The story is getting nationwide coverage and people are of course venting their outrage on blogs and other opinion sites.

I am interested to see what will happen. I am sure the family will receive death threats and other such stuff.


I don't understand the outrage. The girl is better off with CPS, then with a culturally backwards family, who believes that the victimization of an 8 year old is a matter of shame.