General Animal Issues

[anriana]

Partially because of this thread: http://fratching.com/showthread.php?t=1346


Partially due to an episode of Lost where Sawyer is pretending to hurt a piglet (boarlet?) and Kate gets upset with him.


And partially due to other, similar happenings.


I genuinely do not understand people who are concerned about baby animals and not adult animals, or specific adult animals and not other specific ones. I especially don't understand the Lost episode - why is it perfectly fine to hunt and eat adult boars but not okay to mess with younger boars? I can understand the logical position that the boars will weigh more and be more useful for eating purposes when they're bigger, but that doesn't explain Kate's immediate "omg Sawyer don't hurt the cute little baby!" reaction.

I also have difficulty understanding (American) people's hyperconcern with cats and dogs and not, for example, pigs. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs and are treated in horrific ways when being raised for slaughter - ways that people would protest if they were applied to dogs. This I somewhat understand: cats and dogs are seen as companion animals and pigs are seen as consumption animals. Is there anything beyond that?

Yes, I'm a Jain vegetarian with different-than-normal views on animals and animal rights. I'm not advocating those views or arguing that it's morally wrong or right to treat animals a particular way. I just want to understand the reasoning behind the different standards.

[Cat]

I dislike all animal cruelty, but I will admit, I am speciesist (is that a word?) I will put cats above most others, with the exception of myself and a few other humans.


But I do see what you mean, it does seem hypocritical. Like vegans who wear leather. (that example I have seen in a few veggie threads....they can get very interesting)

As for diet, again I chose some species over others....I don't eat mammals or fowl (except for rare occasions) but I adore seafood.


Meh, I'm sorry, I have nothing interesting to contribute....I'm too tired

[anriana]

I dislike all animal cruelty, but I will admit, I am speciesist (is that a word?) I will put cats above most others, with the exception of myself and a few other humans.

Depending on how much you trust crazy veg*ns with English, yes it is!


But I do see what you mean, it does seem hypocritical. Like vegans who wear leather. (that example I have seen in a few veggie threads....they can get very interesting)

I can only imagine how heated those get.

As for diet, again I chose some species over others....I don't eat mammals or fowl (except for rare occasions) but I adore seafood.

I assume you're using "adore" here to mean "adore eating." =p

My best friend is like you too. He says that seafood creatures are "biological machines" and aren't complex enough to merit guilt about eating. I disagree with him but I at least understand the point.

[Flyndaran]

It is not wrong to treat different animals differently. Mammals are far more complex and aware than reptiles and infinitely more so than fish and arthropods.
It is not hypocritical to accept the impossibility of being completely vegan and sometimes wear things like leather. It's like using modern medicine eventhough it's based on a history of animal testing.
It's far simpler just to limit one's behavior and call it good.

[Cat]

Ha, your friend has better explanation than I do. I don't try to "justify" eating seafood and not other critters. I've been lacto-ovo veg and tried veganism, and gone back to being an omnivore, so far, this is working.

[daleduke17]

Depending on how much you trust crazy veg*ns with English, yes it is!


You sure seem to have a problem with actually spelling out words, don't you?

[anriana]

You sure seem to have a problem with actually spelling out words

Apparently on the internet some people type informally and use slang and abbreviatons!

don't you?

And contractions.


"Veg*n" is shorthand for "vegetarians and vegans." Now you know!

[BlaqueKatt]

He says that seafood creatures are "biological machines" and aren't complex enough to merit guilt about eating.

apparently he's never seen a squid or octopus use reason and problem solving-sorry I consider cephalopods to be sentient and won't eat them.

Science Daily (http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/cephalopod_intelligence.htm)

"The cephalopod class of mollusks are considered the most intelligent invertebrates and an important example of advanced cognitive evolution amongst animals in general."

also (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617102853.htm)

"Octopuses and other related creatures, known as cephalopods, are considered to be the most intelligent invertebrates because they have relatively large brains and they can be trained for various learning and memory tasks, says Dr. Hochner.

Their behavior repertoire and learning and memory abilities are even comparable in their complexity to those of advanced vertebrates.

awww look at the baby octipus (http://www.australiancephalopods.com/cephalpod_photos/21Sept29.JPG)-ok so that's actually an adult that doesn't get all that big-it's a pygmy!

Ok these (http://sciencedude.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/13/view-gallery-of-dime-sized-octopus-in-oc/40855/) are babies-5 weeks old-awww

[anriana]

apparently he's never seen a squid or octopus use reason and problem solving-sorry I consider cephalopods to be sentient and won't eat them.

Science Daily (http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/cephalopod_intelligence.htm)

"The cephalopod class of mollusks are considered the most intelligent invertebrates and an important example of advanced cognitive evolution amongst animals in general."

awww look at the baby octipus (http://www.australiancephalopods.com/cephalpod_photos/21Sept29.JPG)-ok so that's actually an adult that doesn't get all that big-it's a pygmy!

Ok these (http://sciencedude.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/13/view-gallery-of-dime-sized-octopus-in-oc/40855/) are babies-5 weeks old-awww


Oh, sorry. I automatically use "seafood" when I mean "crabs, lobsters, and shrimp" even though I know it includes things like octopi and squids and other creatures. I don't know anyone who eats the latter so I sometimes forget that some people consider them food.

Cute pics.

[BroomJockey]

"Veg*n" is shorthand for "vegetarians and vegans." Now you know!

And knowing is half the battle! *the more you know star flies overhead*

Seriously though, I'd never known about that. I figured you were just censoring vegan. Confused me greatly.

[AFPheonix]

It's happening with horses, too. For some reason, eating Beauty the nag is somehow reprehensible when eating ol' Bessy the bossy cow is a-ok. Go figure.

If the animals are handled correctly and slaughtered relatively humanely (and it can be done), then good.

[Flyndaran]

...
If the animals are handled correctly and slaughtered relatively humanely (and it can be done), then good.

As an omnivore it is almost required for you to believe that if only to sleep at night with a full belly.
I eat birds which have been shown to have quite complex brains. I feel guilty about it, but see it as a case of their lives or mine.
I don't see it as ok, just the lesser of two evils.
I won't ever be comfortable with having to make the choice of kill or be killed by malnutrition.

[Savannah]

Don't even get me started on the whole loving baby animals and not caring about adults. I volunteer at the county animal shelter and I can't count how many dogs we've had that have clearly (based on age and behavior) been gotten as cute puppies and abandoned when they actually *gasp* became large adult dogs. :mad:

As for caring about certain types of adult animals over others, I suspect that the reason that dogs and cats are valued above pigs and cows is that dogs and cats have been bred to be "cute" and to depend on people emotionally, while livestock has been bred to be docile enough to handle. It's not just that dogs and cats are seen as companions, but they really do see us as companions as well.

You also can't underestimate the effect that "cuteness" or "nobility" has on many people. I believe that it is why we care about saving some endangered species (Sumatran tigers and fin whales) but not others (spruce-fir moss spiders and broad-headed snakes). People are weird...

[Nyoibo]

I don't really have that much of a problem eating any animal, hell I'd have no problem eating human either. Mmm, delicious long pork.

[Boozy]

Am I the only one seriously creeped out by the thought of highly intelligent octopi? Those things are scary enough.

[anriana]

I don't really have that much of a problem eating any animal, hell I'd have no problem eating human either. Mmm, delicious long pork.

Thanks for your highly relevant and in no way annoying or trite post!

[Cat]

I can't eat octipi and am not a fan of squid....my seafood is usually fishes, crabs, clams, and shrimps. (sushi)


When I DO get another cat...it will be an adult from a shelter....and I'm a sucker, I go for the "problem" (ie, sick, missing limbs, eyes) kitties.

Kittens rule, I love 'em....but I'll go for that adult cat. If I didn't have my two now, I'd consider getting a few FIV+ cats.

[Nyoibo]

The reasoning behind people being more concerned about baby animals than adults, physical appearance, one of the reasons baby animals look cute is that it brings out protective instincts in others of its kind, it also makes them look non-threatening so less things will kill them out of hand to eliminate a threat.

As to why some animals are eaten and others aren't? Social conditioning.

[Boozy]

Thanks for your highly relevant and in no way annoying or trite post!

My comment about octopi being scary is also irrelevant and silly, but so what? A little levity isn't such a bad thing.

As a general rule, if one finds a post irrelevant, one does not need to respond to it. You won't be docked marks or anything, and these posts will not be on the final. ;)

[BroomJockey]

I'd prefer it if any animal cared for by humans for any reason was treated with an eye towards minimizing stress and duress for the animal, but I'm still gonna eat whatever animal I please. And if someone was to teach me the best way to slaughter an animal, I'd have no problems doing it myself. I don't have the disconnect most people seem to have. I know I'm eating severed muscle tissue which formerly aided the life of a cow, or pig, or chicken. It's called a food chain. Nature invented it, humans climbed their way to the top (in most cases. Super predators - sharks, tigers, et al - can and do take out humans. And the more power to them, I say). I'm not going to feel guilty over some animal being in my food chain. And if you could get decent meat of cats or dogs, I'd probably have no objection to them being on a plate either.

Now, if anyone REALLY wants to get upset about how food animals are treated, don't focus on the slaughter industry. After all, it's proven that treating the animals better gets you a better product. No, what you need to focus on is this: http://www.cracked.com/article_16951_6-most-sadistic-dishes-from-around-world.html

[Nyoibo]

And if someone was to teach me the best way to slaughter an animal, I'd have no problems doing it myself...
*snippety snip*
No, what you need to focus on is this: http://www.cracked.com/article_16951_6-most-sadistic-dishes-from-around-world.html

I can probably tell you and, damn that's some messed up shit.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I think it's probably less about the fact that they are babies, and more about the fact that they are helpless.

I mean, take the box full of kittens in the middle of the road example I posted from the other thread. It wasn't that they were kittens so much as they were helpless animals trapped in a box, who could neither escape nor care for themselves even if they could escape. They immediately became the burden of the first caring person who happened along.

Same as the kittens in my yard. That wasn't the first time a cat with kittens sheltered under my deck during a bad storm. The first batch moved on after the rain, with no interference from me. It was just the first time one did that had kittens so young that they couldn't at least walk away from danger. They could not climb up on something out of the water, they were lying in mud and water, and in danger of either drowning of dying of hypothermia.

You can't just leave something helpless to die. Had it been an adult cat that, say, had a broken leg or something, it would have provoked the same rescue response.

Some people even carry bugs or frogs (and in a couple cases, snakes) outside instead of killing them. I'm one of these people. Those are neither cute nor cuddly. They're creatures that need a little help.

[BroomJockey]

I can probably tell you

No offense, but I'd rather be shown in person. I'm a visual learner.

[protege]

Thought I'd post this in here...since I'm curious as to what you all think...

What about an animal that's already been hurt? I mean, years ago, my father and his hunting buddies were driving home, and saw an accident. Some old woman had hit a deer. Not killing it, but with enough damage that it wasn't going to walk again. When they passed her, she was trying to beat the poor critter to death...with a stick.

They stopped, drew a rifle, and put it out of its misery. One quick shot was all it took. In fact, that's what hunters try to do. They want to take down the deer (or squirrel, bear, etc) as quickly as possible. They don't want to just maim it...and then spend hours following it through the woods as it dies. To do so, isn't sporting, and it wastes good food--venison is teh awesome :D

With that said, if it's meat, I'm probably going to eat it. I draw the line at cats and dogs though--I'm not sure my four-legged roommates would appreciate me eating one of them.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'd say it's a good thing they came along when they did.

[BlaqueKatt]

No offense, but I'd rather be shown in person. I'm a visual learner.


sadly I could probably show you anything you wanted to know-I grew up on a farm-I've slaughtered just about every edible quadruped(cattle, sheep, pigs, rabbits, deer, squirrels, raccoons, opossums), as well as chickens and ducks.

[BroomJockey]

sadly

Not sure why that's "sadly," sounds useful.

[anriana]

My comment about octopi being scary is also irrelevant and silly, but so what? A little levity isn't such a bad thing.

As a general rule, if one finds a post irrelevant, one does not need to respond to it. You won't be docked marks or anything, and these posts will not be on the final. ;)




Thanks for your highly relevant and in no way annoying or trite post!

As a general rule, one should read an entire post before commenting on it.

[Flyndaran]

...With that said, if it's meat, I'm probably going to eat it. I draw the line at cats and dogs though--I'm not sure my four-legged roommates would appreciate me eating one of them.

Hee. Our cat Fireball would probably be ecstatic to eat another cat. She's all sorts of weird. She hates adult cats, loves dogs, but is scared bonkers by kittens. Even as a kitten herself she barely tolerated her own mother.

[LewisLegion]

I agree with the 'helplessness' factor of baby animals. A baby can do far less to protect itself than can an adult animal. An adult wild boar is dangerous and can defend itself…it’s got a fighting chance against a hunter, even one with a gun. A baby pig can do little in the face of a predator save run and cry…if they get grabbed they’re pretty much done for…no chance at defense against something much bigger and stronger.

Once I was in my apartment and I heard a cat crying outside. I went outside to find a young kitten (probably about eight weeks old) cornered by a battered old tomcat. I chased the tomcat off, rescued the kitten, and took it to the shelter (I had my own cats and couldn’t take in another one). Had I gone outside and found the battered old tomcat had cornered, say…another battered old tomcat, I’d probably have just chased them both off instead.

As humans our infants are helpless. It’s hardwired into most of us to protect the helpless because it helps us nurture and protect our own offspring. This ends up extending to other helpless infants as well (though if I saw any animal being restrained and harmed, be it a baby pig or a grown bear, I would probably interfere).

[Lace Neil Singer]

Am I the only one seriously creeped out by the thought of highly intelligent octopi? Those things are scary enough.

We all knew this day was coming; the day the octopi take over the world. O_o

As to the original question; I see cats and dogs as companions. Hell, I'd pick a human to eat over a cat. XD I see horses as being much the same. But as for cows, sheep and pigs; dinner. I don't see it as being hypocritical; you might as well say that a dog is a hypocrite when it's happy to eat dogfood and not kill and eat the family cat.

As for baby animals; well, kittens are cute, but adult cats have personality. XD

[Nyoibo]

Am I the only one seriously creeped out by the thought of highly intelligent octopi? Those things are scary enough.

No Japanese woman would be safe...


...Wait, wrong thread. :p

[DesignFox]

No Japanese woman would be safe...


...Wait, wrong thread. :p

Oooh. that was awful! *laugh*

[BlaqueKatt]

We all knew this day was coming; the day the octopi take over the world. O_o


I for one welcome our squishy multi-legged overlords. Hey they probably wouldn't screw it up half as bad as we do.

you ever see that "the future is wild special"? They had tree squid and the dreaded "mega squid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zfyRxPPVI4)"

[Fashion Lad!]

Animal issues.

I'll admit it fully, I'm the guy that sits there and "aww's" for an hour over some cute animal. Heck, my avatar is a baby orangutan kissing its mother. I melted. You would have had to have gotten a sponge and sopped me up. I do not condone, tolerate and nor will I stand for any form of animal cruelty.

That being said. I also "aww" when I see kids doing something that kids do.

I do not condone violence in anyway shape or form against children or adults. I'll go out of my way to help someone out if they need help.

When I was a kid (I don't remember this, but it's) the moment my mom decided that I was a good kid was when I went to the grocery store with her and my little brother. I wanted to get a comic book and had been saving. Someone else's kid apparently was getting candy. (I really don't remember this) and he was short. I had just enough for my comic book (Archie if you really need to know) and I gave him a dollar so he could get his candy and I put my comic book away. The next day of course, my mom had that comic book for me. :)

I'll never put an animal before a human, but I'll never diminish the life of an animal in anyway.

If that makes sense to you, that's how I feel about animal issues.

[AdminAssistant]

I'll never put an animal before a human, but I'll never diminish the life of an animal in anyway.

If that makes sense to you, that's how I feel about animal issues.

Actually, that does make sense to me, and it sorta sums up how I feel about animals, too.