Get a Job! (RANT/VENT)

[rahmota]

Everytime I hear someone say that phrase especially when its tied to the comment "OH you dont like being poor?, Then get a job!" It makes me so sick and tired and angry that I want to slap the person saying that into the next kingdom.

Why you might ask? Its because that comment right there automatically assumes that the person is poor or unemployed because they are lazy or worthless or that its all their fault they are in the condition they are in. It puts all of the blame on the person being addressed in such a smug, arrogant and uppity manner.

Lets get a few things straight here. Amerika is not the land of fair and equal opportunities for all that it may have once been (back in the days of washington and jefferson maybe!) or idealistically supposed to be. Now a days corporate amerika has such a bounty of people to pick and choose from that they can afford to throw people away and not give someone a chance to try and proove they are an effective employee just becausze they managed to get a bad credit score, have something wrong with their history, made a stupid mistake and paid for it but still cant get a job because society doesnt care!

Capitalism in Amerika is setup for the rich, by the rich and of the rich. The little guys do not always get the same lucky chances that someone from a more upper crust section or region of the country might have.
Parts of this country are very poor when it comes to jobs.

And what jobs there are available in general are not the great ones that a person can raise a family on on. Most wageslave positions dont pay enough for an average family of 3 to be above the federal poverty level.

Not to mention that you who so smugly look down on that unemployed and poor person from your ivory tower should stop and think about how close to the edge you live. What would happen if you got downsized or thrown out on the street by the companny closing the office and outsourceing your job to some third world nation they could pay their employees in shiny beads and trinkets instead of even the pathetic wages that they pay amerikan citizens. Think you have a position of safety? Ha! Companies do not have loyalty to their employees and they wonder why their employees do not have loyalty to them.

Look at the stock market> Anytime a company announces somethign that would be good for the country, good for its employees or good for society in general their stocks go DOWN! But if its somethign that will hurt the employees, hurt the country, or hurt society in gernal like closing a plant or cutting benefits their stocks go UP! How sick and disgusting and wrong is that? Thats the kind of trashy BS that makes me sick.

What needs to be done is to make credit checks for jobs ILLEGAL. Its already immoral and indecent and just another way the rich and corporate amerika can discriminate against people.

PENALIZE companies that take jobs from amerika and send them overseas into sweat shops and third world nations. 1/2 to 2/3 of their profits for each year for each job they take out of this country. ie they take 40 jobs out of this country then for the next 40 years at least 1/2 their profits should be taken from them so they can make right the wages they caused to be lost from this country and if they take over a 100 jobs then the penalty should increase to 3/4th of their profits or somethign painful to them. The CEo in charge of loosing these jobs should be made to personally walk in chains to the house of every employee he throws into unemployment and apologize for being a greedy scumbag.

Make any raise for management or upper level people dependent on the wageslaves getitng a raise first. Any Bonus or profit sharing has to be assigned from the bottom of the company upwards.

Any company that makes over a million dollars in profits (Like the oil companies) must pay that profit into a general fund to share with the peopl ethey have exploited that profit from. As thats the only way a company could get those kinds of profits.

PROFIT is the funds left over after ALL expenses have been met. Payroll, research, development etc....

This I know may not make as much sense as I should or could but I am irate right now beyond all capability to be coherent because of this sort of arrogance on people's part.

[Rapscallion]

The alternative is for people to form cooperatives and compete with the big nasties, with each member having equal rights etc.

That's where I am. Equal pay rate per hour for everyone. Every member has a vote in the policies of the company.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

And people say Communism is bad. W00t for Communism! Equality for ALL.

[AFPheonix]

The theory for communism isn't bad. However, in practice, it IS bad. Why? Because there will always be some assholes who don't want to share or want to be equal with the masses. And those assholes are usually in charge.

[Greenday]

Well, yea, the people who lead take most of the money, then what little money is left is spread out among everyone else, meaning they don't get much cash. Damn greedy people.

[ArenaBoy]

"The reason why communism failed? People like to own things."

Frank Zappa.

[rahmota]

No communism has never been given a chance on a national scale to this date. That was socialism which is a totally different breed and they just called themselves communists. They where a breed of powerhungrey jerks who took the name and the dream and the ideal of communism and perverted it into somethign horrible and self-serving for the burgeoise ruling elite. Not too much different than the way things are in modern day amerika.

Our ruling elite is the upper crust of corporate amerika. They do whatever it takes to oppresse and keep social mobility to a minimum in this country.

True communism can if it can be kept from being perverted by the greedy bastards like Dubya, the oil company execs, etc.... would be more beneficial in the long run for all of humanity. It would mean people getting off their lazy butts and taking a more active role in their own lives and the lives of those aorund them. Joining together in cooperatives and actually cooperating for the common good instead of just trying to amass the most personal gain and wealth that they possible can exploit as under the oppresive regime of capitalism.

I mean look at business practices as they are today? It takes good credit to get a job but if you dont have good credit then you cant get a job, if you dont have good credit you cant get a college degree unless you bury yourself under so much loan debt that it will take you the rest of your life to dig out and then there is no gaurentee that you will have a job when you do graduate college.

Which is part of what my original comments where abobut. This system is flawed and doomed to failure. When someone says get a job where are people supposed to get this job from if there are no jobs out there or what jobs there are ,are dead man's boots to get into? Are people supposed to just pull one out of their arse? People say get an education. How? when tuitions are rising and grants and such are getting tighter and starting out already deep in the hole in debt then only the children of the rich who can afford to pay out of their pockets for college are able to get a decent education. The rich are able to wield their money as political power to control the destinies of cities and towns and counties all across the country moving jobs and people aroud like it was pawns on a gameboard. And when it tires them or they no longer profit from a company here they move it offshore and dont look back to think of what they have down to the lives of the people they throw out of work.

But no matter what you call it capitalism fails to provide a morally fair, or equitable distribution of resources to all people regardless of their social class. It is an exploitative and discriminatory process. And unless you are born into the right social class then good luck doing anything to move upwards. But heavens help you as one wrong step and down the ladder you go.

[Fuzzykitten99]

Here's a thought- Who said life was supposed to be fair? So some people have to work harder to get ahead in life? Doesn't mean that they can't get ahead. Those who have the money to provide a better life for their kids are no less human than the ones who have to live paycheck to paycheck. They have likely worked for it, thus they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

If your credit is coming into play for getting a job, that is your fault, not the employer's. If you made a mistake in your life that is jeopardizing your job prospects, again, how is that the fault of anyone else but yourself? You have to live with the consequences of your choices and mistakes. If what you did makes you a potential liability to the company you applied to, well, they have to protect their company from that if need be.

You also don't have to have a college education to succeed in life. I have no college education and neither does my husband. Yet I have extensive hands-on experience in office & customer service as well as foodservice. My husband is making $25/hour in his field, which he has worked in since graduating high school. I own 3 of my own businesses. One being my own home daycare, the other is wedding consulting, and the third is Pure Romance consultant. Just doing that, I have gained bookkeeping, accounting, and management experience. So when I decide to quit daycare in few years, I will have even more experience with more areas desireable to employers under my belt to get a better job than I did before I started the daycare. And this is if I am not able to open my own bridal shop at the time that I want to do so.

My mother-in-law has no college education either, yet she has worked her way up from secretary making about $7/hr at the company she works for, to a licensed real estate abstractor & loan closer/processor for that same company. She makes something like $70k/year. But it also took her about 15 years to get to that point. Before she started as a secretary there, she worked nights at Target, and before that, she was a stay-at-home mom with my husband and his older brother.

Really, it sounds like you are just suffering a huge bout of envy. Stop bitching, suck it up, and get out there and take some personal responsibility. You mistakes are your problem, and the potential employer doesn't want your problems to become an issue in the workplace. There are jobs out there. Jobs that pay so-called poverty level don't require a lot of skills. Thus the payscale reflects the amount of responsibility and knowledge. Why do you think a doctor gets paid so much vs. a retail employee? Because he has spent the time and the money to get where he is and he has to know his shit to keep his job and keep from getting sued. If you don't have many skills, you'll need to start at the bottom and work your way up to learning new ones. But if you work hard and set goals, you'll get there, and it will feel all the better when you achieve something you have earned and worked for.

[Boozy]

Here's a thought- Who said life was supposed to be fair?

:( That's very defeatist.

I don't see the problem with evaluating our society and its laws and deciding how we might provide the deserving with better chances in life.

Certainly every step we have taken for the good of society - movement towards equality and democracy, the civil rights movement, women's suffrage, etc., has been a result of someone saying, "Life's not fair...but let's see what we can do about that."

[Greenday]

Doesn't sound too defeatest to me. Sounds more like, there's nothing you can do about fairness in life so there's no point in worrying about it.

[Puckishone]

I know I'm taking a chance by paraphrasing, but I think that FuzzyKitten was trying to say this: No matter how much good we do, no matter anyone's best intentions, sometimes fecal matter occurs and it's nothing to do with "fairness." Don't we all know at least one person that we'd call "good" or "decent," who is hard-working, law-abiding, tax-paying...and forever (or at least it seems) getting the short end of some particular stick? Sometimes it's the roll of the dice that determines who gets the goodies, and sometimes it's hard work. Since it's pretty damned tough to tell which one at times, it just adds another unnecessary dose of drama to one's life obsessing over it. That's certainly not to say that we shouldn't fight the good fight to get rid of as much overt discrimination as we can, though.

That said, I agree (to a point) with the envy argument as well. If you measure your "success" by money flowing out every orifice and toys in the big, splashy house, then you're always going to be lagging behind someone who has bigger, shinier toys. It's your choice to focus on the material...and you can choose not to. Having not come "from money" myself, I understand the temptation to use the Goodie Yardstick, but I've also learned that it's ultimately self-defeating; it's a game you can't win.

[rahmota]

Greenday: actually that sounds very, VERY, Defeatest to me. Sounds a lot like the rhetoric that was used against the civil rights movement back in the sixties, against equal rights for all. Lifes not fair so you might as well shut up and accept your place in it. The rally cry of the oppressor. Boozy is right the freedoms and rights that have been wrestle out of the oppressors hands have been done so because people got sick and tired of being told lifes not fair and decided to try and make a difference and MAKE it fair.

Now on to your post FUzzy:

Who said life was supposed to be fair?
Lets see the bible, (New testament, Jesus was the first communist), the constitution/bill of rights, the declaration of human rights by the UN, among other great and historical documents.

They have likely worked for it, thus they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Ah! yeah right this one is a common capitalist apoligista comment. Did you know the top 1% of american soceity controls 30% of the wealth in this country? And of those top percent none of them have had to work a day in their lives for that wealth. It was all handed to them on a silver platter by their mommies and daddies. Remember how G. Bush was stumped by a bar code reader because he had never set foot in a grocery store before that photo opp. He had always had people go do that sort of stuff for him. One of the perks of being a member of the social elite in the american empire.

If your credit is coming into play for getting a job, that is your fault, not the employer's
Could you please explain to me how a person's credit is a valid or effective indicator of their ability to do their job? This sort of comment automatically assumes that the person who has bad credit or is poor is the one to blame for all the problems. Because of course we cannot blame society or the corporate attitude of treating people like toilet paper. Use them up and throw them away when it becomes a threat to the ceo's bonus. Gods know we have to make sure he can afford his second yacht or third mercades. Credit only shows whether the person is of the right social class or not. It does not show if they are lazy, or a threat to a job or a liability.A good hard working person who gets behind in one bill can wind up with poor credit. Especially as companies dont care if they screw you over or not. All you are to them is just one more number. It is just one more tool companies and corporate america uses to oopress poor people and discriominate against those not of the right social class. Credit checks as a hurdle to getting a job should be outlawed and punishable by hefty fines for the company just like litteracy checks for voting where a hurdle for blacks after the civil war. Same sort of discrimination different method and era.

No you dont need college to get a good job but it sure helps. Although the local mcds has a manager who has a 4 year degree in CIS because there are NO CIS jobs in this area. If there are no jobs then how are people supposed to get jobs? Just magically pull one out of their ass? I talked to the local Job Services officer today. They have in their system for my home county 14 jobs listed. There are 1600 people listed in the system looking for jobs. You tell me whats supposed to happen there? Oh its nothign personal its just business. Thats what every assassin says. "Well just move." Yeah right where and how? It take smoney to do those things and if a person doesnt have money to being with how are they going to get the money to go do that.

I am so happy that you and your husband are lucky enough to be living good right now. What exactly would happen should he roll a truck over or something happen to him where he looses his job? How about the company decides to move out from under him? I'm glad you've picked up a lot fo skills. I've run several businesses myself, I run a farm right now as a matter of fact. I have enough skills, and letters and titles and certificates to choke a mule. Is that getting jobs no. Why? Because there are NOT ENOUGH JOBS TO BE HAD! There are more people looking for work in this entire region than there are jobs to be had. Jobs of any kind. You have 30 year ford mechanics pushing trays at the local burger joint because the ford plant shut down. You have contruction workers pushing brooms becuase construction is actually laying people off. The local walmart actually has a hiring freeze on. There are no jobs to be had. So tell me when there are no jobs to be had how does one suppose to be able to get a job? Just go out and create one? yeah right have you seen the amount of money required to start a business or the liscences and fees and then you have to have a business to be able to compete against the already established businesses. There are 8 other guys in a 3 miles radius from where I sit now who have hung a sign out in their yard offering to do oil changes or other light auto work.

Really, it sounds like you are just suffering a huge bout of envy. Stop bitching, suck it up, and get out there and take some personal responsibility. You mistakes are your problem,

ENVY? ahha. This is anger we are talking about right here and now my dear. Anger at the arrogant smug rich scumbags who look down their noses at the poor and less fortunate . Anger at how they act like you are a leper or going to jump on them and mug them just because you drive an older car or dress in not so fancy clothes. Anger at how they have to flaunt their welath in fancy gas guzzling SUVS that have never have and will never see the slightest bit of mud and yet complain because the price of gas is too high. People who move out to the country and build on good farmland 250,000$ houses and then complain that everything is too far from their home and how they hate the bugs and animals and all the slow moving vehicles. Well if you wanted city life then maybe you should have stayed in the city bitcvh!

And that portion I bolded and underlined is an example of the sick arrogant, egotistical, presumptious, superiority complex BS crap that goes on in this world. Its blaming the person automatically for all their problems. It doesnt take into account that there might just be extenuating circumstances in that person's life. It doesnt take into account that maybe they had some bad breaks with the crappy economy that we liuve in now. Because of course we must all swallow whatever lie sbig business and the government tell us about how wonderful our econmy is while companies lay people off left and right and ship jobs overseas so they can cut costs while still paying the big wigs their exorbanent salaries. No of course we cannot blame corporations or our society so we must blame the victim. I swear comments like that are just as bad as saying that a rape victim deserves to be attacked because they where asking for it.

so-called poverty level Oh so you dont believe in the poverty level? You dont believe that there are people who dont make enough money to survive in this world? Or what is it that you have to say so-called poverty level?

There are jobs out there Really where? Not around here. It is a regional thing only. So using the broad brush strokes that everyone is able to just walk out and get a job, any frakkin job is BS.

Those who have the money to provide a better life for their kids are no less human than the ones who have to live paycheck to paycheck

And in clsoing I will say this. Just because a person has money does not make them "better" or give them a "better" life. All it does is make them have an easier life and maybe less stressful but poor people at least know who their friends are and that their family is with them because they are family and not out for their money.

[Rapscallion]

I don't have time to get involved in this to any great degree, but the poverty level is an interesting statistic. A charity over here was screaming about poverty levels being far too big, and had made enough noise to be invited onto a television show. The interviewer went through the basic questions about the campaign and then asked, "So, what is the poverty level you use as a yardstick? What income do you define as poverty level?"

"Well, we regard anyone in the lowest ten percent of earners to be suffering from poverty..."

"So, there are always going to be ten percent of the population in poverty no matter what you do?"

Shot them down quick.

Depends how you measure it.

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

Puck: I dont know about that interpretation. That did not exactly sound like what she was saying to me. To me it sounded like she was trying to blame the poor people for their problems. That if you're poor its your fault.

And by an objective standard not just keeping up with the jonses poverty is all about being able to maintain a lifestyle of your own choosing without having to deal with crediters and bills and figuring out who to not pay for the month or who to pay. Its about not having to worry about the kids going hunggry or sick because you didnt have the money to do anythign about it. By an objective standard it is about having at least as much money coming in as money going out. Something that can be controlled by both sides of the equation but is not helped when business and companies and society in general is set up to make it harder for poor people to dig themselves out of any holes or have less than equal chances at getting resources to support themselves.

Raps: the resources I use and quote measure poverty by the amount of money coming in against the amount of money going out for an average family. Not barring that there could be differences in measureing, estimation, rounding errors etc... I will try not to quote any figures or numbers that are as wildly off as the ones you showed. That is a group being dishonest with the facts which does not help the situation any.

[squall]

My question is to rahmota. Why spell America with a 'k', as in Amerika? I'm guessing it has come symbolic meaning?

[rahmota]

Yes it is symbolic. A symbol of how the American Republic has fallen and been replaced by the American Empire. For the past 27 years aside from 8 years of sanity this country has been in the thrall of people who claim to represent the ideals of the republic and the people but in actuality are just social eltists who represent the ideals and goals of the rich and powerful.

Reagon, King Bush I, King Bush II, all have made cuts to social programs hurting thousands if not millions of poor people. They have seen a rise in deficit spending beyond anything ever seen before. Bush II managed to take a budget surplus hard won by the Clinton Administration and waste it on an illegal invasion and occupation of another country, tax breaks for the wealthy, rewards for companies moving overseas, among a variety of other wasteful extravaganzas.

Forgotten in this was the Gulf Coast during Katrina, drought relief for farmers, forest fire management, Lets see we've also seen the shuttle program and NASA in general getting forced to make do with second rate and outdated equipment, an erosion of basic civil rights and freedoms that would make huey long proud. A rise of our own religious zelotry equivalent to the Taliban, but since they hide behind the veil of christianity for their pogrom of hatred they receive tacit approval from the regime at home here.

All symbolized by changing one little letter.

[powerboy]

I do not have any college experience. But yet, I am working hard to start my own businesses. I have a lot of experience in the type of business, I am trying to start. I have always been taught, that working hard is better. Rather then getting things handed to you on a silver platter. America is not equal. All the assholes, gets everything handed to them. And the hard workers, get treated poorly. If you want a better life, then work hard for it.

[squall]

Reagan, although somewhat flawed, was not entirely a bad president. He revitalized an economy that under Carter had become stagnant and pulled us out of the Iran hostage crisis. He was one of those that sounded the death knell of communism across Europe. Communism, as mentioned earlier, is not a solution that works. It is a system that demands total unquestioning loyalty to country, and destroys some of the freedoms we associate with Western society. Everybody becomes a wage slave no matter the profession. As somebody pointed out earlier, the bottom 10 percent of America's population is always relatively the poor class. It can't always be helped, but there are many people who rely on government assistance and those that abuse the system. Some of the social programs could therefore be construed as a disincentive to work. This was a belief Reagan held, right or wrong is relative to whomever it affects. These same budget cuts are credited with the revitalization of the economy and the economic boom of the 90s, during which time King Bush the Lesser did little except stop Saddam's intrusion into the Persian Gulf, a wise move then. Could he have gone further, maybe. Would we be in the same quagmire we are today, possibly. Then comes Clinton and the "political correctness" idiotology that spread across college campuses and the liberal media outlets (another rant entirely). Monica aside, he did a good job....for a Democrat. And King Bush the Terrible....well, you know the story, and it is still playing out.

Rather than focus on the bad, I will say a few good things about what Bush II has done.

1. Established the Homeland Security Branch.
2. Named 2 Supreme Court justices to the bench, including a chief justice.
3. Worked to spread freedom in Afganistan. Afganistan has been a partial success. More children are going to school, including girls. There will always be extremists who do not want these freedoms, but I don't believe that extremists speak for everybody.
4. He (Bush II) and his administration have played a crucial role in the recent disarmament of North Korea's nuclear program. His work with Iran is ongoing, but I believe will produce some promising results, if not with this administration but the next. Clinton had begun working to this end, but was stonewalled by a Republican Congress who objected to whatever he worked toward. Believe it or not, Clinton feared Iraq had WMDs just as Bush II did. Hindsight is 20/20 in this situation.

[blas87]

The only people I want to slap silly and tell to get a job are people who cannot stop getting pregnant and having children and sucking up all of our tax dollars while they get to sit home all day and watch tv, get free daycare and free insurance and HELL discounted high speed cable and internet, when I have to work to pay for what I have and I can barely afford any of that!

[AFPheonix]

Rather than focus on the bad, I will say a few good things about what Bush II has done.

1. Established the Homeland Security Branch.

....which was something Clinton was wanting to come about, and Bush poo-poohed it...until we got attacked, and THEN he was all about the homeland security.

2. Named 2 Supreme Court justices to the bench, including a chief justice.

I will grant that he made a good choice in Chief Justice Roberts. I don't always agree with the man, but I respect him and think that he's pretty brilliant. the fiasco with finally picking Alito on the other hand, after trying to get a crony or two installed is a whole 'nother story.

3. Worked to spread freedom in Afganistan. Afganistan has been a partial success. More children are going to school, including girls. There will always be extremists who do not want these freedoms, but I don't believe that extremists speak for everybody.
Afghanistan could have been successful if he'd just stayed there rather than go get a hard on to attack Iraq. Now he's just fucking up in both places. Afghanistan is becoming less safe, The southern part of the country is experiencing a resurgence in the Taliban. Teaming up with the warlords is coming to bite the military in the ass, as opium production in Afghanistan now supplies 92% of the world's heroin. Yeah, way to go there, guys.
And gee....there's still the matter of not catching a certain guy with a beard after 5 years.....
4. He (Bush II) and his administration have played a crucial role in the recent disarmament of North Korea's nuclear program. His work with Iran is ongoing, but I believe will produce some promising results, if not with this administration but the next. Clinton had begun working to this end, but was stonewalled by a Republican Congress who objected to whatever he worked toward. Believe it or not, Clinton feared Iraq had WMDs just as Bush II did. Hindsight is 20/20 in this situation.

CHINA played a significant role. Bush really didn't do more than Clinton did. If it hadn't been for China telling Numbnuts that they weren't going to be supplying them with food and oil anymore if he didn't start playing nice, then we wouldn't have gotten anywhere again.

[rahmota]

Rather than focus on the bad, I will say a few good things about what Bush II has done.

1. Established the Homeland Security Branch
The Department of Homeland security (they are not their own branch of govt no matter how much they would like to be.) Our own home grown secret police. While a single department to coordinate and control all domestic defense is good the way Bush II developed it has been a failure.

Government Accountability Office revealed widespread misuse of government credit cards by DHS employees, with purchases including beer brewing kits, $70,000 of plastic dog booties that were later deemed unusable, boats purchased at double the retail price many of which later could not be found, and iPods ostensibly for use in "data storage".

In November 2006 the DHS had also mobilized tens of thousands of temporarily hired agents to conduct surveillance and practice clandestine operations on a person living on disability in Long Beach, California. The operation lasted three months, reached Canada and Taiwan, and was estimated to have cost several hundreds of millions of dollars, and yet the person in question was later assessed to have no connection with threat activities.

Failure of the response to Hurricane Katrina. Only the rich and powerful have seen any rebuilding not to mention the general bungling and mistakes made during the initial days following Katrina.

2. Named 2 Supreme Court justices to the bench, including a chief justice.
Somethign that whomever was in the office was going to have to do. And like AFP said Roberts is an okay choice, Alito is just a consolation prize after Bush II tried to get his buddies in power.

3. Worked to spread freedom in Afganistan. Well he was working on that until we invaded and occupied Iraq. Then all that good work went to hell in a handbasket as we removed support and its now settling down into a nice long quagmire like Iraq where the US controls certian safe zones but outside those zones its the wilderness.

4. He (Bush II) and his administration have played a crucial role in the recent disarmament of North Korea's nuclear program. ANNNNH! Sorry would you like to try again? North korea disarmed after gaining enouh political power and agreements frm china and South Korea to supply almost a million tons of heavy fuel oil to north korea. All the US has done is point weapons of mass destruction at NK, Try to starve NK by placing an embargo on them, insult them and call them an axis of evil etc.... All very non-diplomatic actions by King Bush II.

Now lets look at the bad things Bush II has done:
1: Allowed the torture to take place at the Abu Garib and Gitmo concentration campes
2: Moved detainees to other countries where torture can take place without oversight.
3: Tried to exclude himself formt eh McCain Detainee Amendment
4: No child Left Behind...Need we say anythign more about this wasted failure.
5: Cut taxes to the wealthiest percentages of the nation.
6:PATRIOT ACT: The destruction of civil rights in america
7: Military COmmisions act of 2006: Effectively removing Haebeous corpus for those determined to be enemy combatants.
8: Failure of any effective response to the gulf coast after KAtrina.
9: Destroyign the environemetn by rolling back over 30 years of advancement by the EPA. Attacking the endangered species act and clean air and water acts for example. See http://www.bushgreenwatch.org for more examples.
10: The recent attorneydismisal for political maneouvers.
11: And goign all the way back to 9/11 his inability to react or act when informed of the attacks on the WTC.

Reagan, although somewhat flawed, was not entirely a bad president. He revitalized an economy that under Carter had become stagnant and pulled us out of the Iran hostage crisis.
Okay first off Reagon had nothign to do with the resolution of the Iran Hostage crisis whatsoever except taking the credit for other people's work. Namely Algerian diplomat Abdulkarim Ghuraib opened fruitful, but demeaning, negotiations between the U.S. and Iran. This resulted in the "Algiers Accords" of January 19, 1981, which entailed Iran's commitment to free the hostages immediately.

Trickle down economics aka voodoo economics aka reward the welathy and starve the poor is a part of the republican legacy.
Savings and loan crisis where thousands of hard working americans saw their life savings vanish in a puff of smoke.
The stock market crash of 1987.
National debt increase. Trade deficit increase.
And that wonderful waste of taxpayer moeny and time the war on drugs which has done nothing except bloat the government, remove civil rights and ruin more lives than the drugs themselves have probably done.

Powerboy: You are right the assholes do get thigns handed to them on a silver platter. One of the perks of being rich and powerful and elite in a country that rewards being rich and socially acceptable and punishes those who try to work hard for a living. I applaud you for trying to start your own business. I have run two business before the farm and know what you are having fun with. Good luck and hope it works out.

Blas: There are always those who take advantage of any system and I dislike those as well. What I am railing about is those people who are trying to make their lives better but thanks to roadblocks put in place by capitalism in general, our society and the administration and corporate policies in specific.

But what in the world are you talking about free cable and high speed internet? I am aware of no program state or federal that gives people those two items. And many of the programs I am aware of require participation in work education or scut work programs (where the recipient is treated as a slave of the state or indentured servant if you prefer) so they do not get to sit aroud all day and just watch tv. Unless there is a medical reason why they cannot work. Especially if they get free daycare (which is another thing I am not aware of any state or federal program doing)

[Nightwolf]

(Things are not fair here in the US.) Thats for sure, and also, (Who says life is supposed to be fair?) Thats fine and dandy and all, but, lets just tally up what lil ole me is going to be making this year shall we.....

$9600.00 this year. Wow, I can really afford to live and support a family on that.

See, the thing is, I've tried to get other jobs, 60+ resumes and not a single phone call. I've tried to get another part time job, but once again, I get no phone calls. I call these places and get nowhere. I refuse to go work at McDonalds or another fast food joint, and maybe thats my fault because I'm being too picky, but I don't believe I should have to resort to those levels.

See, this "being poor" thing isn't my fault. And if anyone says it is, by all means, tell me what I did to make this my fault?

I'm more than qualified to work in Human Resources, had plenty of experience, and am very passionate about that line of work, yet, I can't even get an interview and why? Because I have no degree. Same thing goes for any sort of IT work. I've tried. I've spoken with people in the upper management portions of the IT places. When I tell them about my experience, they light up, then when they ask if I have a degee, I tell them no and their face turns into a frown. Then i'm told I need to have a degree to get in.

Yeah, I don't have to have a degree to work three jobs, but I refuse to work myself to death. As a part of my (crazy, insane, radical) HR ideas, I shouldn't have to work myself to death to get ahead in life and provide for my family. I don't live for work.

And for all those who say you need to work hard to get ahead......no, you need to kiss ass to get ahead. My old boss is total proof of that. In every single job he's been in, he's been promoted to the top, and he does nothing. He is the laziest SOB I've ever seen when It comes to work. He passes it off on others, takes the credit for it, and because of all his sucking up, the bosses won't believe he didn't do it. Myself and a close friend worked 10x harder than he ever did in his job, and as underlings we got screwed over more times than I can count. What does he get...another promotion for taking 2 hour lunches, working 4 hour workdays, and not answering his phone during emergencies. yeah, things certainly aren't fair, but I think a little equality would be nice in these cases.

[Boozy]

$9600.00 this year. Wow, I can really afford to live and support a family on that.

Yikes. I've been there.

I firmly believe that anyone who works full-time year-round should be able to support themselves financially. If they can't, then the minimum wage is too damn low.

Seriously, what the hell is the whole concept of a minimum wage for if not to make sure that someone who works hard can afford food and shelter?

I suppose this may be a topic for another thread. I'll shut up before I completely hijack this one.

[Dreamstalker]

I've spoken with people in the upper management portions of the IT places. When I tell them about my experience, they light up, then when they ask if I have a degee, I tell them no and their face turns into a frown. Then i'm told I need to have a degree to get in.
Sounds like what I'm running up against with needed experience. In order to get job experience I need to work in a position, yet they're not hiring unless I can prove I have said experience. Rinse and repeat...

I have a CS degree and can't even get a job in the retail side of computers, never mind what I want (hardware tech). Freelancing is nice, but there isn't enough work where I am. Right now I'm sinking money that I don't really have into cert training (and wrangling with the state disability agency to get that money back, as I was promised in May).
Yeah, I don't have to have a degree to work three jobs, but I refuse to work myself to death. As a part of my (crazy, insane, radical) HR ideas, I shouldn't have to work myself to death to get ahead in life and provide for my family. I don't live for work.

That makes sense and is in line with my work beliefs as well.

My bf doesn't have any sort of degree and wonders why he's not getting hired (basically, the only jobs he deems 'worth it' require experience, certs and education which he doesn't have).

[rahmota]

Nightwolf. Oh I feel for you on that my friend. I run a farm. The "profits" from that farm dont even count because by the time I meet expenses at the end of the year I'm usually under 500$. Yes thats right I dont even clear a grand on the farm when i take what i get from the crops and spend it on taxes, fuel, seed, etc.... So I have to try and work off the farm (As well as full time on the farm) but its that stupid little piece of paper that so many companies would rather see on your wall than any sign of actual experience. What is the point of wanting an experienced person if you are going to reject them just because they dont have some prestigious little piece of paper that says they graduated from the right social club or the right school.

Dreamstalker: Again its the same vicious cycle. You have to have this experience, but you cant get this experience unles syou jump throuhg this incredibly high set hoop that only those with the right background and social standing can get or otherwise you have to work three times as hard.

I wish the both of you the best of luck. Also know you are not alone in the boat. There's way too many people in there with you right now.

Boozy: Seriously, what the hell is the whole concept of a minimum wage for if not to make sure that someone who works hard can afford food and shelter?

I suppose this may be a topic for another thread. I'll shut up before I completely hijack this one

Please either start that thread or put it here. We've gotten all over the place and a minimum wage is a job related issue. Honestly I'm not going to get bent about a bit of thread drift.

Capitalists would tell you that the minimum wage is why there are no real jobs any more , that prices are so high because of Minimum Wages, and that companies shouldnt be forced to pay a minimum wage. Thats BS otherwise we'd wind up seeing a heck of a lot more working poor on the wwelfare rolls than there already is as companies try to cut payroll costs to beyond the bleeding minimum. If there was not some kind of control on a company forcing them to pay a fair and livable wage they would treat everybody like sweatshop employees because really and honestly what option would people have? Dont work for a comapnny that wont pay a fair wage? Well if the law of the land doesnt force a company to do that then no company will do so. So you hav eno option but to work for substandard, submenial, sublivable wages. Can you honestly tell me that any companny in america today would offer all the benefits and wages they do if they where not forced to do so by the government?

[TNT]

I agree it can be very hard to find a job. I'm not making this post to say that it's easy. And this story should be taken for what it is... a very local story in a very small town. It would be impossible to take any general implications from it because there aren't any.

Still, the problem at the call center where I work is that we have way too many jobs and way too few applicants. We're trying to hire over 200 people in 2007, but we probably won't make it... we're supposed to have 15 people in our training classes and we generally wind up with 12.

It's got nothing to do with credit history (don't ask me how I know that). The only requirements are a high school diploma and the ability to tell a computer from a Pepsi machine. The starting pay is relatively high for the area (30K a year in a city where "luxury" apartments rent for $600 a month), and the benefit package is one of the best in the country.

We've got all these jobs waiting for someone to fill them, but I still hear a lot of people tell me, "there just aren't any jobs here." Granted, call center work isn't for everybody. But, given the choice between that and unemployment, I know which one I'd take (I know which one I did take).

[Dreamstalker]

What is the point of wanting an experienced person if you are going to reject them just because they dont have some prestigious little piece of paper that says they graduated from the right social club or the right school.

I have a CS degree from what is supposed to be a liberal-arts school. Haven't considered the thinking "a CS degree from an arts school?"...yeah it may not make sense, but give me a pile of parts and I can either build it, or tell you why it won't work.

In a field like IT (for example, but this could apply to almost anything), I would think that real-world experience--of which I have plenty--would carry just enough if not more weight than certs (IMO, the hiring process for technicians should include a hands-on portion). I've seen/heard tales of people who got certs just for the paper/hiring advantage, and can't actually do the work (or are capable, but make a massively obvious mistake and don't see what they did wrong).

[rahmota]

TNT: It must be a regional thing. The midwest is dying here when it comes to good jobs, average jobs or even really bad jobs. Unless you drive trucks or are a nurse or a truck driving nurse then you are having a rough time getting in.

Whats really sad is that there are many companies that have openings but no budget for payroll as the honchos have decided on a hiring freeze to cut costs. So less people to do more work for fewer rewards. How joyful.

Dreamstalker: Yeah I know what you mean about the certs and all. there are diploma mills on the web and real world as well that can give you a certificate in anything you want. But you find someone who has been there done that and knows how to fix it again but they dont have that stupid piece of paper then the company just doesnt care. Its all about appearance versus ability to some people.

[TNT]

TNT: It must be a regional thing. The midwest is dying here when it comes to good jobs, average jobs or even really bad jobs. Unless you drive trucks or are a nurse or a truck driving nurse then you are having a rough time getting in.

Whats really sad is that there are many companies that have openings but no budget for payroll as the honchos have decided on a hiring freeze to cut costs. So less people to do more work for fewer rewards. How joyful.



I'm not so sure it's a regional thing... trust me that if I were thinking about changing jobs, I'd have no idea where to go in my town. I still look at the help wanted ads every Sunday, and most of them are for... truck drivers and nurses.

Mostly, I got lucky and connected with a company that's currently hiring people by the thousands all across the country. Here's the odd part: most of those people are getting hired because we're eliminating outsourcing. That's not a typo... we're eliminating outsourcing. Imagine that.

Even better for me, I got there slightly before the plans were announced and the hiring frenzy started. It's all a very long story, but my original job was as day to day temp in a position the temp agency assured me was singularly futureless -- I'd never have to worry about being hired full-time because it wasn't going to happen. I basically got the job because a) I showed up at the agency that particular day and b) no one else wanted it.

I stayed because I started picking up rumors that things were not as futureless as they seemed. Almost two years later, things are still working out pretty well.

I mention that only because I think part of it's luck, and part of it's finding opportunity where there doesn't appear to be any (or at least opening the door when opportunity does knock).

[rahmota]

TNT: Wow thats great. I find it funny that just through sheer dang luck you got in but thats about the way it goes I guess.

your company is ending outsourcing? I wonder why. Was there a reason given or that you've heard? This is the first I have heard of a company doing that.

PS do they have any offices in SW Ohio?....;)

[TNT]

TNT: Wow thats great. I find it funny that just through sheer dang luck you got in but thats about the way it goes I guess.

your company is ending outsourcing? I wonder why. Was there a reason given or that you've heard? This is the first I have heard of a company doing that.

PS do they have any offices in SW Ohio?....;)

It's all a very long and complex story. I suppose the bottom line is that company has come to the conclusion that in-house call centers cost a lot more, but deliver better value.

My experience working in an outsourced call center tells me they're right.

[rahmota]

TNT: Well thats anews flash that had been waiting. I wonder if this is a sign of the outsourcing trend coming to an end and maybe a reversal or not. It would be nice if more companies figured that out. Well congrats and all.

[EmiOfBrie]

Hmm..... I wonder if that company has offices in Minneapolis. I have years of call center experience with DecisionOne :)

[Jules Of All Trades]

There are no jobs to be had.

I know I'm jumping in really late here, but rahmota, you and I live fairly close to each other and there are jobs to be had. Are they my/your/anyone else's dream job? Perhaps not, but it's a paycheck. Is there a possibility that you'll have to commute a little longer than you really want? Perhaps, but it's a paycheck. I just did a quick job search and there are 1247 jobs within a 30 mile radius of my town. I realize you don't live where I do, but you can't be too far since we commented some time ago in another thread that we've dined at the same restaurant in the same part of town. ;)

My ex was complaining to me the other day that there are "no jobs" around here as well. We took a 10 minute, less than 5 mile drive down the main roads of my town and saw at least 15 "Now Hiring" signs in front of stores and restaurants. How is that "no jobs"? Granted, I understand that not everyone is qualified for every job, but it sounds like you have good work experience and you're very intelligent, surely you would qualify for one of the 1247 nearby jobs?

I just don't understand it. Is is really that there are "no jobs", or are there no jobs that you feel fit your standards? As I pointed out to him, there's a big difference.

[Seshat]

And by an objective standard not just keeping up with the jonses poverty is all about being able to maintain a lifestyle of your own choosing without having to deal with crediters and bills and figuring out who to not pay for the month or who to pay. Its about not having to worry about the kids going hunggry or sick because you didnt have the money to do anythign about it. By an objective standard it is about having at least as much money coming in as money going out.

And here we come into why I started the thread about 'what is poverty'. I don't think poverty is about maintaining 'a lifestyle of your own choosing'. As soon as you talk about 'a lifestyle of your own choosing', I think you're talking about a social class problem.

Poverty (as a well-being problem) would be that above paragraph, with 'lifestyle of your own choosing' replaced with 'lifestyle consistent with human health'. Or words to that effect, anyway.


That said: society sometimes effectively prohibits people from working.
When there are no jobs a person is capable of doing, within a reasonable travel radius of that person's home, that pay an income sufficient to maintain a healthy lifestyle and enable the person to continue in that job; then society is preventing the person from working while they live in that home.
If society doesn't make it feasible for people in that position to move to a place where there are jobs, society is effectively preventing that person from working.

Taxation/welfare systems can also effectively prevent a person from working. There have been times in Aussieland when the disability, age, and other similar pensions effectively penalised a person for working. If you earned over $X, the pension would be cut by half the amount you earned. Thus your income was reduced by 50% plus tax, for every dollar you earned over $X. Oddly enough, few people want to work for a pittance.

Medical care systems that cut off once you earn over $Y also penalise people for working. Housing assistance schemes: the same. I'm sure people can think of a whole lot of other examples.

There can be a lot of disincentives to work, and it can be very hard to find jobs. However, I've had some luck writing polite letters to politicians, outlining disincentives and suggesting alternatives. You have to be patient working with politicians - the wheels of politics turn painfully slowly - but they can often get things done to reduce disincentives or make things possible.

The one thing they can't do is force jobs to be available, or force employers to hire you. :(

[rahmota]

Jules: Ok maybe. I go online and search for jobs and within 30 miles of my home there are 500-1200 if I dont apply any filters. The thing is its not so much jobs that are beneath me but jobs that I have the skills to do. As 80% of those jobs are either skilled trades or medical related or CDL. Of which I can do some of them but dont have the "schooling or certifications" to impress the employers with. Just practical knowledge gained from growing up on a farm. as for my standards. I dont have many when it comes to getitng paid. As long as I'm treated somewhat decently, paid fairly, and given a chance to do my job I'm good. I just take outside jobs to support my farming habit....:)

Also competition for a lot of these jobs is rather fierce from what I have been able to research. One company said there was 3 positions but 300 people had applied for it.

As for the commute. True I may not be that far from eastgate but fuel costs are a major concern when it comes to the commute. a round trip 5 days a week can add up.

So maybe saying there are no jobs available is not totally correct or accurate. Saying there are few good jobs that pay a worthwhile rate or are hiring people. SO yeha while there are now hiring signsd in many windows a lot of those places are not actually hiring. I was told by one manager of a fast food joint they just leave the now hiring sign up as there is a high enough turnover that eventually they would be hiring so they might as well leave the sign up.

But I do qualify for quite a few of the jobs. I am not sure what the deal is. I interview well, I am articulate, I am skilled. Its just our job environment sucks. There are more unemplyed people than there are jobs so employers can pick and choose and be picky as hell.

So anyhow I will admit that yes there may appear to be a lot of jobs on the surface many of those "jobs" are phantoms and not really there when you do go looking for them. Either that or companies use tame black holes for their resume submission systems.

[rahmota]

Sorry Seshat didnt see you post there while I was typing my response to jules.

But yeah we worked out the poverty thing rather interestingly.

Good points about the disincentives in many ways.

Your last line is not quite true. In a capitalistic system they cannot force employers to hire you or force there to be jobs. If you step away from capitalism a bit then that is so. FDR did some great things but god burned and abused for it because it was not in the spirit of greedy capitalism.

[counterjockey]

Jules: Ok maybe. I go online and search for jobs and within 30 miles of my home there are 500-1200 if I dont apply any filters. The thing is its not so much jobs that are beneath me but jobs that I have the skills to do. As 80% of those jobs are either skilled trades or medical related or CDL. Of which I can do some of them but dont have the "schooling or certifications" to impress the employers with. Just practical knowledge gained from growing up on a farm. as for my standards. I dont have many when it comes to getitng paid. As long as I'm treated somewhat decently, paid fairly, and given a chance to do my job I'm good. I just take outside jobs to support my farming habit....:)

Hey Rahmota,
I'm not sure how much equipment you keep around the farm, but I'd bet you could do alright on a CDL exam. I did a preliminary Google for you and found the following: http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/cdl.htm One thing I noticed is that some of the third-party or private CDL testing outfits have vehicles available to rent for the exam. The fees look to be over $100. Expensive on the face of it, but $100 is about one credit of a three-credit class at community college anymore. What I'm getting at is that a CDL isn't the most expensive investment, and it could pay off pretty well. The same could be said of a medical-field certificate course at a community college or vocational school.

"Life's not fair" might be an accurate observation of some circumstances, but it's a hell of a thing to resign oneself to and fuck anyone who thinks it's a goal to strive towards. I'm 24, two years out of community college with my A.A. degree in English, which means I can diagram the sentence "Sorry, did you (subject) say (verb) Marlboro Reds or Lights (carcinogenic object)?" at the c-store I came crawling back to after Plans B through about H went to hell. I'm lucky that the store didn't want to lose me then or now, I guess, but the greenest pastures this cow's gonna find only pay about $10-12 an hour. Even in Iowa where cost of living is fairly cheap that doesn't get that far, and if I weren't such a boring guy I'd be sunk by some combo of child support, court-ordered restitution or fines, SR-22 insurance or what have you. I've been down and discouraged before, I'm trying hard to be hopeful now, but we'll see. I try to take the good with the bad and remember that I haven't gotten that far ahead but at least I've gotten by.

Good luck with your harvest and be safe!

[rahmota]

CJockey: Yeah a CDL would be quite nice to have. I have driven vehciles that could get me a CDL of one class or another the sad thing is that due to circumstances I'd rather not discus this is not a viable option right now.

I dont think I've resigned myself to this I'm just a bit battle fatigued from trying to fight for fairness, and my share of the pie against a stacked deck.

You fail you try you fail you try the only time you have truely failed is when you fail to try.....

[Seshat]

I dont think I've resigned myself to this I'm just a bit battle fatigued from trying to fight for fairness, and my share of the pie against a stacked deck.

The world will never be fair. All we can do is fight for it to be a bit less biased for the next generation, and fight to get what we need for this one.