God Vs Satan which one is really good.

[Mr Slugger]

Ok this was a debate that I started ages ago with a teacher, and in all honesty it was more of a game than a real debate, although it was a debate because we had to come up with facts.

So here was how it kinda went.

Of course there's god and satan. Are they good vs evil? And if so whose really good and whose really evil? Or are they just two sides. And of course anything known about the other side could be used.

Some of the points were. God says follow him and you'll go to heaven. Don't follow him and you'll go to hell. Satan says god doesn't listen, but I do, and if you follow me I'll give you what you want.

God says satan will tempt you with gifts, Jesus has given gifts.

Satan will bribe you with supposed miracles, Jesus performed them.

Of course some things you can't find on the other side. Like I don't think there's ever been a story of satan's son walking on the face of the planet trying to get people to join him, but I could be wrong.

And honestly I don't really want to get anyone upset with this one. Like I said this was in part a game. I mean there was times where we defended both sides.

And then again maybe this thread will sink like a stone :)

[Flyndaran]

If we are talking old testement, then boy is god evil by our modern definitions. One of the ten plagues was mass child murder for crying out loud.

Satan only torments those judged by god.
God created Satan knowing full well that he would fall, so is ultimately responsible for the very concept of evil. Satan just follows his nature created by god.

There's book called, "Job" by Piers Anthony in which Satan is shown to actually be a good guy, just with a bad P.R. campaign.

[Mr Slugger]

The original debate you could used pretty much anything that was written. Couldn't use movies though.

[Flyndaran]

The original debate you could used pretty much anything that was written. Couldn't use movies though.

Even apocrapha and weird pope-ly opinions and accepted religious doctrine of any and all christian sects?
That's a lot of stuff without needing nasty racism from Mel Gibson's movie rants.

[joe hx]

"Job" by Piers Anthony

first off Piers Anthony = Awesome

second, is this book based on the Old Testament book of Job? I found no references for a book called "Job" by Piers Anthony

there is a book by HG Wells called The Undying Fire that is based on the biblical book of Job. have it but haven't read it yet.

also the famous epic poem Paradise Lost is often considered its protagonist, Satan, to be a good guy.

[Flyndaran]

I could have sworn that it was written by Anthony and named "Job".
I don't how to search for books with that title that doesn't get swamped by lists of work type jobs.

I remember that it involves a character, Jobe, to be God's latest bet with Satan about faith. It involved tossing him through mutliple realities and eventually the afterlife.

[MaggieTheCat]

I don't know a lot about any religion, so please excuse any ignorance in my post(s)...

Don't multiple religions worship the (supposedly) same God? For example, don't Lutherans and Catholics both read the Bible and worship the God from it? However, I know that Lutherans and Catholics typically don't get along very well (that is a very generalized statement.) My point is, God creates a lot of strife between His followers. Different groups fight and argue between each other over different interpretations of their beliefs, all over what they believe their version of God says is right. Don't really see that with Satan much...that I know of, anyway.

[Rapscallion]

I could have sworn that it was written by Anthony and named "Job".
I don't how to search for books with that title that doesn't get swamped by lists of work type jobs.

www.hipiers.com (http://www.hipiers.com) is his homepage (been there occasionally) and it has a listing of all his books.

http://www.hipiers.com/bibliography.html for the list - can't see anything by that name on there. It's the sort of thing he'd do, though.

Back to the main subject, I've seen various pieces of fiction where Satan is shown to be the victim of a PR campaign, and even wrote one a while ago where he was duped into the role. However, what did Satan do that was so wrong?

A bit of research (hit Wikipedia, so your mileage may vary) suggests that the entity either tried to evoke sin, despite wishing that people would resist; rebelled against his creator, in pretty much the alleged first attempt at free thought; as well as several others.

Of interest to me is whether or not those acts are actually evil. The Old Testament God was a fairly brutal entity, by the accounts in the Bible. Most transgressions were met with a death sentence. Abraham was supposed to sacrifice his own son. Moses tried to get the Israelites out of Egypt, but one particular verse in the tale says that God hardened the heart of Pharoah during one attempt - never seemed fair to me.

Was Satan wrong in the face of such a divine ruler? By modern standards, not necessarily. By the standards of a much harsher regime, then perhaps yes.

My main view is that Satan is a creation of a religion made to keep people in line. In that manner, he was a fair success, and as such an argument can be made that he was actually a good thing.

Going to ponder this some more. Good topic.

Rapscallion

[AFPheonix]

I don't know a lot about any religion, so please excuse any ignorance in my post(s)...

Don't multiple religions worship the (supposedly) same God? For example, don't Lutherans and Catholics both read the Bible and worship the God from it? However, I know that Lutherans and Catholics typically don't get along very well (that is a very generalized statement.) My point is, God creates a lot of strife between His followers. Different groups fight and argue between each other over different interpretations of their beliefs, all over what they believe their version of God says is right. Don't really see that with Satan much...that I know of, anyway.
The Catholic church was the first Church. Due to dogmatic differences, the Church experienced a number of splits over the years. That's where other sects and denominations like the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, blah blah blah come from.
It's not God creating the splits, it's the followers.

[Flyndaran]

The Catholic church was the first Church. Due to dogmatic differences, the Church experienced a number of splits over the years. That's where other sects and denominations like the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, blah blah blah come from.
It's not God creating the splits, it's the followers.

That's patently a myth. The modern catholic church was not the first church.
There were likely many sects right after Jesus' death, assuming he ever existed and wasn't a melding of multiple people.
The problem being that the bible is mostly vague and some verses are just plain evil. Modern people call these "easily misterpreted words of man" and pick and choose the rest.

[IDrinkaRum]

For those who are wondering, the book Job is written by Robert A. Heinlein and the exact title is: Job: A Comedy of Justice. I know this as Mr. Rum is a huge Heinlein fan. :D

The book you are thinking of Flyndaran, is For Love of Evil written by Piers Anthony and is Book 6 of the Incarnations of Immortality series. Satan is known as different names because each incarnation of him takes a different name. (I.e., The name Lucifer is for an incarnation different from the incarnation known as Satan and so on and so forth).

I am currently re-reading the series as there seems to now be a Book 8 (there were originally 7 with the 7th one being about God) which takes place during the time of King Arthur.

As for God vs. Satan, aren't they the flip sides of the same coin? Yes, God did create Satan as He created all of His angels. But wouldn't God forgive Satan if he were to ask for forgiveness?

[Flyndaran]

It was Heinlein! Doh! He's the other writer I really love. It was a very long time ago that I read it... wow, looking back I realize it might have been two decades ago.

[Mr Slugger]

As for God vs. Satan, aren't they the flip sides of the same coin? Yes, God did create Satan as He created all of His angels. But wouldn't God forgive Satan if he were to ask for forgiveness?

Well maybe they're not the flip side, but yes sides. I mean satan did get kicked out of heaven. And from what is written because he went against god. But like you said shouldn't he have been forgiven? Or is the whole god vs satan thing more like the god's country club and satans public golf course. At the country club you have to follow the rules or you get kicked out, and the public course while not as pretty as the country club is alot more relaxed on the rules.

But moving on to another point. Adam & Eve got kicked out of heaven for eating the apple that satan said for them to eat. And then they were kicked out of the garden. Pretty much that's the only big thing satan has ever done that was bad, and yes it got us kicked out of the garden, and that's pretty suck, but that's all he's known for.

God. I mean he flooded us, did the plaques. He's known for doing a few pretty crappy things to us because he got ticked off.

Another point. They say that satan is there to tempt us into evil ways. But are they really evil ways or free thinking ways. There's alot of rules on the god side.

[Slytovhand]

OMG.. No-one's mentioned "Good Omens" by Pratchett!

Also, Michael Moorcock has written the Von Bek series, in which Satan tries to employ the already damned Count Ulrich Von Bek to get the holy grail back, so he can give it to God and get back into heaven (sort of like Dogma). But, all of the angels and demons are trying to stop him - after all... what happens if Satan no longer is the evil guy???

Anyway, the way I choose to see things... Lucifer Morningstar, the first and highest of God's angels, wasn't happy that God would choose to create a race which was clearly inferior, but to give them a much higher standing... thus, Lucifer got a little bit pissed (s/he and a few of the others), and said "Sod this crap, we deserve better!" and took up a strike, and God told them to get the hell out... my golf course, my rules!

Satan later decides to get back at God (well, perhaps, as the local union rep, advises the latest employees about their real rights... ) "Here, eat this apple, and you will have the knowledge that God doesn't want you to have... know that you are getting ripped off here!" And thus, Adam and Eve, once God got wind of this, kicked another lot out of the golf club...

And now, after God's apparently had a change of heart (yeah, you can really see that in the OT), he'll let people back in.. as long as you appease his ego.


The only question I have about this discussion is: does 'hell' really exist the way it's been described in Dante's Inferno? Or is that just a PR job put out by God??

If so, then 'The Devil' is quite clearly the better option... none of this 'faith' stuff for perhaps some sort of reward for being good..after your dead. Satan's message is simply, "Give me a chance, and I'll give you some goodies now".


Also, are all devil's and demons former angels??? Do they have to be mean and cruel and torture people who go to hell? Or, is there some sort of elemental of torture and pain doing it all?? If they're ex-angels, if God chose to forgive them, and let them back, would they repent??

[IDrinkaRum]

When I attended Uni, I was part of a Catholic Students Organization (heh, I'm Catholic ... what would you expect? :p)

The preist said that the reason Satan went against God when God showed his Angels the glory that was Jesus, and this pure goodness that would be human so scared Satan and his minions, they rioted. And that God would forgive Satan and allow him back into Heaven if Satan only admitted he was wrong and asked for forgiveness.

If there was no Satan, whom would we blame for the evil that people claim makes them do certain things? Free Will would really get a bad rap and humans would have to stand for their own mistakes, and we can't have that, can we? :rolleyes:

[AFPheonix]

That's patently a myth. The modern catholic church was not the first church.
There were likely many sects right after Jesus' death, assuming he ever existed and wasn't a melding of multiple people.
The problem being that the bible is mostly vague and some verses are just plain evil. Modern people call these "easily misterpreted words of man" and pick and choose the rest.

Let me qualify that by saying that it was the first, best organized church, overseen by Peter.
There were many other sects like the Gnostics, but they did not survive. The Catholics were better at politics and message control.

You are right about scripture, though. We also have to remember that the Epistles that were chosen to become scripture were frankly Cliff Notes of sermons delivered by their respective authors, too. We don't even get the full benefit of the whole message.

[Flyndaran]

Let me qualify that by saying that it was the first, best organized church, overseen by Peter.
There were many other sects like the Gnostics, but they did not survive. The Catholics were better at politics and message control.
...

I don't even acknowledge that as that assumes modern christianity is true. I'm not sure that Jesus existed let alone his troupe.

[Rapscallion]

There's a site called www.jesusneverexisted.com (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com) if you want to view an alternate side of things. I've not got the time or inclination to agree or disagree with the assertions there, but it makes for interesting skimming.

Rapscallion

[BroomJockey]

But moving on to another point. Adam & Eve got kicked out of heaven for eating the apple that satan said for them to eat.

And that was the apple of knowledge, wasn't it? Satan, also known as Lucifer the lightbringer, gave us the capacity for reasoning and understanding, when God would keep us stupid and happy. I submit that anyone who deliberately punishes a population for learning is evil, and those who would break them from complacency is good.

Or to throw a huge freaking sci-fi wrench in, Satan is the Ori, only with less subjugation and killing (which is why the Ori were evil), and God is the Ancients (judging, withholding knowledge, 50 bajillion rules for the faithful). Ah, Stargate. Is there no situation where you can't make an analogy?

[AFPheonix]

I don't even acknowledge that as that assumes modern christianity is true. I'm not sure that Jesus existed let alone his troupe.

In this particular thread, since we're kind of debating over the goodness or evilness of God and Satan, one must make the assumption that they have to exist. A non-entity would neither be good nor evil.

[Flyndaran]

In this particular thread, since we're kind of debating over the goodness or evilness of God and Satan, one must make the assumption that they have to exist. A non-entity would neither be good nor evil.

Why not? The problem with religious arguments is that they contradict too much to make much sense of.
This is pretty hard to debate when there is not only no true answer but no true assumptions or givens on which to base one's point on.

[Nyoibo]

Why not? The problem with religious arguments is that they contradict too much to make much sense of.
This is pretty hard to debate when there is not only no true answer but no true assumptions or givens on which to base one's point on.

That's a pretty flimsy arguement for it, it's like saying you can't debate wether Lestat was good or evil because he was a fictional character.

[Mr Slugger]

In this particular thread, since we're kind of debating over the goodness or evilness of God and Satan, one must make the assumption that they have to exist. A non-entity would neither be good nor evil.

Yup. The original debate never tried to get into debating each point brought up, or whether God or Satan was real, or if things happened in the bible like the bible says. If it was from a bible, some kinda of encyclopedia, etc. Then it was to be taken as fact. That's why movies were not allowed because that was one person's opinion. You could do it as a "maybe it's like this movie." But like Nyoibo you can debate even fiction characters, so long as you've got enough of a story behind it.

Plus like I said the original was more for fun because in reality you'll never come to a conclusion.

[Flyndaran]

That's a pretty flimsy arguement for it, it's like saying you can't debate wether Lestat was good or evil because he was a fictional character.

Books by a single author tend to be a little more internally consistant than horribly self-contradictory holy texts.

[AFPheonix]

Why not? The problem with religious arguments is that they contradict too much to make much sense of.
This is pretty hard to debate when there is not only no true answer but no true assumptions or givens on which to base one's point on.

If you wish to debate whether they exist, then debate that. There are even threads dedicated to that very purpose. But that's not what this thread is questioning.

Not that I disagree with you on the existence part, but if we take part in this particular thought exercise, then we must at least assume for the moment that there are actual characters that have characteristics to talk about :)

[Fire_on_High]

Anyway, the way I choose to see things... Lucifer Morningstar, the first and highest of God's angels, wasn't happy that God would choose to create a race which was clearly inferior, but to give them a much higher standing... thus, Lucifer got a little bit pissed (s/he and a few of the others), and said "Sod this crap, we deserve better!" and took up a strike, and God told them to get the hell out... my golf course, my rules!


Very interesting POV you have, and one I've agreed with for many years myself.

[Ghel]

Part of the issue with this debate is WHAT books do you reference? As others have mentioned, there are many different bibles, many different books of the bible, and verses that are quite often contradictory.

The God of the OT is angry, strict, and selfish. He not only expected a lot from his people, but he encouraged (or was justification for) many wars and atrocities against neighboring peoples. The God of the NT is no better. Jesus says (and I may be paraphrasing), "I come not to bring peace, but the sword." He essentially said that anybody who valued their family over him was not a true follower. And he's the one who introduced the notion of hell in the bible - eternal fire, without the release of death.

What did the devil ever do? Tempt people. Send his demons to possess people. Torment people after death in the hell that God created, and where God sent them. It might be evil, but nowhere near the level of God's evil.

[Slytovhand]

Pulling in Flyn's arguments as well.. who says JC was actually part of God's plan? Maybe he (or his lack of he) was all about a demonic plan to trick people into being sheep? Maybe the whole Jesus thing is a falsehood propagated by one of those aforementioned entities, for some other nefarious purpose??

Given that God in the OT seems to like war and strife and conflict, who's to say that wasn't the original idea?? (of course, the same could be said of a Devil entity as well....). So, best way to keep war and strife and conflict going?? Put a new belief into people's heads... that's the one thing that's kept the wars etc going for centuries.