America bashers who are American

[squall]

Being somewhat of a conservative, I have to say if you bloody well dislike the country you live in, why don't you just leave? I think one of the problems about America today is that there is a alot of hate and dislike of one's own country, no national pride. Think back to 1941. When freedom has come under attack, everybody and their dog was volunteering for service to defend this country and our allies. I feel like the far-left today (and impressionable young people) have grown to hate this country and feel that national pride is not something to be proud of at all. Maybe it isn't fair that for all the sacrifices that our grandfathers and many before them made....has resulted in a country that is obsessed with the dollar, and no love for the country they live in. They would rather live in Qatar if it meant they can have a life of luxury. More and more, I feel that the this country has lost its singular identity.

Which brings me back to impressionable young people. They would be the single most largest liberal democrat population demographic...if only some of them were old enough or were pro-active enough to get out to vote. On youtube, you will always see foreigners denouncing our country and our values...but even more shocking is seeing all of the younger Americans who agree with them and trash talk the very country they live in. Michael Moore does not help much in that respect. Yes, Bush is out of control, but there will be a new president in two years and hopefully our foreign policy will change as it always has. I really honestly believe that some Americans would rather see it burn down than to do expend any energy in improving it. They seek order, safety and security at any cost, rather than individuality, liberty and freedom. And Hollywood is the perfect mouthpiece for projecting liberal propoganda and all the young people absorb it like a sponge. Saying "I love my country" these days would illicit strange stares, where as many years ago it would illicit total agreement.

To quote Gwenyth Paltrow:""I find the English amazing how they got over 7/7. There were no multiple memorials with people sobbing as they would have been in America." What about 9/11?

Sean Penn:"I think that people like the Howard Sterns, the Bill O'Reillys and to a lesser degree the bin Ladens of the world are making a horrible contribution [to society]. I'd like to trade O'Reilly for bin Laden. [O'Reilly] is a grumpy, self-loathing joke." Oh For fucks sake.....and to think I thought he was an okay actor.

There was going to be a war memorial on the coast of San Franciso in the form of a World War II battleship set up for public viewing and tours. The San Franciso city council voted 8-3 to tow that battleship away. Why? Because of the Democrat city's oppsosition to the ware in Iraq and the military's stance on gays.

This country needs to be proud again. But I understand it needs an overhaul in some areas to get to that point again.

[rahmota]

I have to say if you bloody well dislike the country you live in, why don't you just leave?

Hows about instead of just abandoning ship to the rats why not work harder to help improve this country? Why not take a stand for right and general good instead of selfish intolerant hatred? If you have a problem in your home you dont leave your home you clean up the problem and rebuild your home.

In 1941 this country was physically attacked by a nation in an unprovoked and unilateral sneak attack. There was a definate face of evil and it wore a toothbrush moustache. Or thick round glasses to use the stereotypes of the era. People still believed in right and wrong and trusted their government. It isnt so much that people want a life of luxury they want a life free from the lies and bigotry and hatefulness of their own government. Look back at all the revalations and social changes that have occured since 1941. This is not the same country in any way shape and form and to try and pretend that it is or ever could be again is lunacy.

That still though does not mean that people should give up trying to make it live up to the ideals it was founded upon. This country was an escape for refuges from the oppression of kings and rich social elitists and social classes that a person where born into and locked into for their lives. Now this country has become the very thing it was founded to get away from. It has failed to live up the ideals it was founded upon.


More and more, I feel that the this country has lost its singular identity.
You are quite true there. It is called stratification. Polarization. Something that the people who ar ein power like to see happen as it lets them get away with doing very not nice things like DMCA, PATRIOT, etc... and not having people notice them. It uses distractions like causing great uproar and trumoil over somethign as trivial as homosexual marriage when the deficit is spiraling out of control and diggin this country deeper into debt. Stratification is the increasing gap vbetween the ahves and the have nots who cannot afford basic amenities and must pick and choose which to have food, or electricity or fuel to try and get to their one or two mcjobs that they have to have to replace the one good job that was outsourced to a foregin nation.

They seek order, safety and security at any cost, rather than individuality, liberty and freedom Of course people seek those things because the republicans and the elite have made it criminal in this society to be different or to be an individual. To try and stand up for yourself or be able to provide for yourself is to be considered a threat. Look at the republican backed agenda to disarm american citizens. Therby striping them of the capability of defending themselves from crimnals, be they wearing a unioform or not. It matters not the second amendment gone. Freedom from religion gone. Freedom of the press gone. Call it executive priviledge, call it censorship, Call it what you will but the flow of information from this president is one of the worst in the history of this country. Even silent cal released more information than King Bush II does.

And yes in two more years there will be another president and another administration. But how long and how hard will they have to work to undo the crimes and damages that have been done in the past 6 years by dubya? And there is the distinct possibility that with the precedents set by dubya the next one in the regime if its republican could go on with business as usual. Just because we have an election every 4 years does not mean people should just bend over and take it without ky when their president and government is effing them over. You do realize that if it had been a democrat who had done even half of what dubya has done there would have bene cries for impeachment ringing out all across capital hill. But since it was a republican at the helm he gets lauded by conservatives.

The San Franciso city council voted 8-3 to tow that battleship away. Why? Because of the Democrat city's oppsosition to the ware in Iraq and the military's stance on gays.

I actually applaud the SF council's upright, morally correct and honorable stand against the evil invasion and occupation of iraq (of which I have relatives and a good friend who is a combat medic in fallujah) and the discriminatory and subhuman treatment of homosexual by our government and military. Its the whole tuskeegee airman thing all over again. So what if a guy likes other guys if he can do his job and control his hormones (better than some heteros) then it doesnt mean a damn thing. Its just a bunch of macho compensating jerkwad bullies who are uncomfortable about sharing barracks with someone who likes hot dogs rather than marshmallows. I do wish they could have found a better way of expressing it because antique relics like battleships should be preserved. Not so much as to glorify war and the means of killing which should always be a last resort but as an example of our technological ability. As an excellent piece of workmanship and downright craftsmanship. And lastly to remember and honor those who did give their lives and their service for this nation and her people.

This country needs to be proud again. But I understand it needs an overhaul in some areas to get to that point again.
You are quite right that this country needs to be proud again. But proud of the right things. Proud of having an economy that works and provides for all the members of its society not just the rich and elite. Proud of a society that includes people and not excludes them the way the hateful discriminatory anti-homosexual laws do, proud of having a good human rights record and not invading and occupying other countries, proud of a good civil rights record and not having a police state that wiretaps and observes and protects and promotes business interests over the public good and welfare.

You are quite right that this country needs a lot of work. But by saying that people should just shut up and deal with it until the next election. Or that they should love this country or leave it is to insult and demean the history of public outcry and organized or unorganized demonstrations against abuses by their own government. It is every citizens right not to mention duty to be able to criticise and question and downright insult their own government. And it is amazing that amerikan citizens still have that ability.

What about 9/11?


Yes what about 9/11? It was the reward amerika got for creating the taliban and arming bin landen and his al-queda in the first place. Or had amerika forgotten about that? Back in the abd old days when the USSR still existed the US and the CIA where giving Binladen and his guys moeny, arms training and all the goodies and support that the good ol war machine of the usa could make. And as long as they used tham against the soviets it was all good. But then when the USSR went belly up amerika said thanks for the trouble and death and dying and all but we dont need ya anymore. All that falls under the cronwe of Bush I.

But if Bush II needed an excuse to opress civil rights 9/11, the grass not growing good on the lawn 9/11, an excuse to invade a country and occupy it in violation of international law 9/11. An excuse to beat people over the head with the stick of forced patriotism and false national pride. Anyone remember freedom fries? The gift that keeps on giving.

I'm not saying it was a bad thing that happened to amerika, it was not it was a tragedy. It was preventable though and all had its roots back in the 80s under Ronbo Raygun's backroom deals and support of terrorist organizations as long as it kept those dang commies in check. (Iran Contra anyone?)

But national pride must flow from a sense of having something to be proud of. It cant be some kneejerk reaction that people are expected to have because the ruling elite told them to. It cannot be forced by any amount of propaganda or religious ferver or egotistical zeal. Back in 1941 americans had a country to be proud of mostly. Yes there where problems. Problems that would eventually grow up into issues that would polarize and tear this nations to its foundations. Issues that we are still struggling with. Issues that so radically changed this nation that it cannot be said to be the same country that existed in 1941. WWII was the last clean, honest and morally correct war the world would see. If war can every be described in those terms.

Love this country so be outspoken and fight for it. There is a difference in loving and respecting this country and its ideals it was founded upon and those who are in power. And in closing allow me to apologize if this seemed to drift on various threads and thoughts but this is one thing that cannot be contained to just a simple black or white love this country or leave it attitude. Also allow me to remind people of the principles this country was founded upon and that have been forgotten in todays culture.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America

First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

We hold these truths to be self-evident , that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed , That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it , and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism , it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government , and to provide new Guards for their future security.

[AFPheonix]

There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriots are people who love their country so much that they yell out when someone tries to come along to hurt it and its reputation. Everyone who spoke out about the direction that this administration took from the beginning were true patriots. They recognized that ultimately it would leave us weaker and in a worse place than we were in 2000.

Nationalists are people who take pride in their country, but do so blindly. People who stick little US flags in the back of their huge SUVs, rah rah everything that the president and his ilk have done, and don't think critically are nationalists.

Don't be a blind nationalist. Don't just think along party lines. Love your country, but be willing to speak up for it.

[CancelMyService]

Also, It must be said that people who want to see changes made to improve their country are not "bashers". That along with the term "far-left" also used in the OP smack of the Fox style newspeak that so many people are quick to adapt.

I've always said if liberals hated America so much, they'd have been quiet the last 7+ years.

[Boozy]

“Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy”.
-- George Bernard Shaw

I like living in Canada and all, but I can't say I love my country. My country is not a person. It is a thing; a social and economic tool for improving (or worsening) my quality of life. I love my family, my friends, my dogs.

And as far as the crap the Republicans are feeding everyone about "liberals hating America", I have this to add:

“A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.” (Edward Abbey)

[TNT]

Honestly, I think the world has changed and the US hasn't.

Let's go back to World War I... no matter what the theoretical causes might be, the overall intent was to liberate Europe from Kings and Queens, and other assorted princelings and autocrats. Europe fundamentally changed after that war... gone were the Kaisers, the empires, the archdukes, etc.

World War II was a global battle against the forces of fascism.

The Cold War was all about Communist totalitarianism.

Whether anybody likes it or not, we're currently in World War III, and the enemy is radical Islam. We call it the "war on terrorism" but we all know what we're talking about, even if no one will come straight out and say it.

When I was in college in the late 70's, there was a woman there from Iran. She was one of my favorites... if for nothing else than the facts that she never wore a bra and never buttoned her blouses much above the navel. Everybody wanted to sit beside her in class because there was always going to be a good nipple show. Way beyond that, though, she was special... smart, sweet, artistic.. one of the unforgettable women in my life.

She graduated in '79 and went back to Iran. A few months later, the Shah was deposed and Khomeini took over. As I read newspapers, I couldn't help but worry a lot about what happened to the super-sweet kid I went to college with and was very fond of.

I never heard from her after that... She may have escaped, she may have conformed. I'm probably never going to know. But somewhere in the back of my mind, there's always the thought that she was stoned to death for the crime of showing a nipple.

Does it matter if 99% of the Iranian people would have agreed with that decision?

[CancelMyService]

The thing is, the reason why "radical Islam" is so upset at the West is because of the constant meddling in their affairs. The map of the Middle East looks like it does because of how the Brits divided the Ottoman Empire after World War I. The Shah of Iran was a CIA backed puppet, and was overthrown because the theocrats there knew it.

Iran actually has one of the largest percentage of young people per capita, and there's a pretty big movement towards democracy swelling up. So I doubt 99% of the Iranian people would have agreed with stoning your friend now or then. It's that kind of dehumanization that's used in all the "Rah-Rah let's bomb some more Arabs" garbage we can expect to hear more of if the Administration decides to attack Iran next.

[AFPheonix]

What CancelMyService said.
Do you think that Iranians overthrew the Shah and installed Khomeini because they wanted more religion? No, it's because Khomeini reduced the amount of corruption that was inherent in government under the Shah. He rerouted the oil money that was being stolen from the people and returned it to them.
Their infrastructure has changed dramatically since the 70's. They went from basically the stone age to a modern society in 30 years' time. They have more hybrid cars on the road than we do.

[squall]

Unfortunately....America has changed. Even as conservative as I am, I believe America has self-proclaimed itself the world police. That role took form in the Korean War in the guise of stopping the spread of Communism. Before that, America was a neutral isolationist nation as far as the world was concerned. Even during World War I and II. Only when our nation or its people were under direct attack did we ever intervene in these wars. In the Great War, it was the German sinkings of American sea vessels (which aided the British) that brought our late entry into the war. In 1941, it was Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. Two years late into that war too. It is wise to say in hindsight we waited too long to intervene as millions died in both wars.

Yet wherever the sickle and hammer made an appearance, the USA always had to intervene in some way. This role has now shifted into fighting violent fundamentalist Islam. And Islamic fundies are much like Christian fundies......trying to make all of society live by their rules and codes. Except with Muslim fundies, they enforce it with violence and by blowing each other up. It is madness! Thing is, you can't keep people from wanting to blow themselves up, so you might as well get out of the way and let them do whatever cowardly thing they want to do.

I believe our solution should be to go back to our roots and became a little more in tune with our own nation, but still be alert to the plight of people suffering under brutal, facist type regimes. But this is a thin line to tread. What if a Saddam wannabe rises from the ashes of Iraq to threaten a mass section of his own people again? Maybe unlikely. The fractured terrorist groups in Iraq are unorganized, sort of like headless chickens running around.

[squall]

What CancelMyService said.
Do you think that Iranians overthrew the Shah and installed Khomeini because they wanted more religion? No, it's because Khomeini reduced the amount of corruption that was inherent in government under the Shah. He rerouted the oil money that was being stolen from the people and returned it to them.
Their infrastructure has changed dramatically since the 70's. They went from basically the stone age to a modern society in 30 years' time. They have more hybrid cars on the road than we do.

Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. The Shah was no saint, but Khomeini was bad news from the get go, although highly respected by his own people. The country was already on a path of Westernization when the Shah was in power, technologically speaking. In practice, the democratic government and world culture collided with their traditional values. The Shah was a westernized man and his people did not like that about him. He was trying real hard to bring the country out of the stone age. If anything, I believe Khomeini has slowed their progression. Khomeini always knew he was going to have an axe to grind with Western Society and countries like Iraq, so he modernized his military, but at the same time has left much of civilian Iran in the stone age, requiring strict Islamic codes and abstaining from modern international culture. Hypocritical to say the least. Much the same goes with North Korea. To say they are a "world" nation is a falsehood. Saudi Arabia and Turkey are much more "worldly" Islmaic nations.

[rahmota]

Squall:In 1941, it was Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. Two years late into that war too. Actually the united states had been involved in the WWII conflict before Pearl Harbor happened. Several American Destroyers where attacked and either damaged or sunk during the years leading up to WWII.

The United States is a meddler,always has been ameddler to more or less effectiveness, people dont like being meddled with and the Invasion and occupation of Iraq has been one of the best recruiting tools for alqueda and other groups. Which are not as headless chickens as you may assume.

And Islamic fundies are much like Christian fundies......trying to make all of society live by their rules and codes. Except with Muslim fundies, they enforce it with violence and by blowing each other up. Tell that to the victims of christian fundies attacks on abortion clinics, hate crimes endorsed by christian fundies etc.... I say there is no difference between christian fundies and islamic fundies. Just the name in which they perform their hateful intolerant and evil acts.

How are IRAn and NK not world powers? They make a move and the world responds, they are in the news everyday because of their actions or because world leaders are "concerned" over their attitudes. I mean Bush II is working on starting a diplomatic incident with them so he can have an excuse to invade and occupy them the way he did Iraq. Iran is a member of OPEC with large amouts of oil That makes them a power to me, and others. Not to mention a place of interest to Bush II.

Is only America or those countries enough like her the only ones allowed to be world powers or even be considered advanced in any way shape or form?

And Saudi Arabia is not much more advanced and in many ways just as "backwaard" as iran. The difference is Arabia is a friend of the US so we overlook little things like poverty gaps, human and civil rights abuses and of course the whole Osama hiding in Arabia and receiving support from them and his family in Arabia things.

but at the same time has left much of civilian Iran in the stone age Oh sort of like what Bush II has done to Iraq with his invasion and occupation?

[Boozy]

The United States is a meddler,always has been ameddler to more or less effectiveness

Not really - Squall's right about US isolationist policies before Pearl Harbour. A nation of their size and wealth had never been so quiet on the world stage.

Of course, it was WWII that changed all that. Once the military-industrial complex was born, they had no reason to keep to themselves and everything to gain through imperialism.

[Nightwolf]

I have to apologize in advance, as I was one of the American public bashing America. Maybe not to the extent of some, but mainly in the face of the economy.

The thing is, I've thought a great deal about moving to another country like....Germany or Austrailia. The whole problem becomes, where do I find work? If I go overseas, I can't speak any other languages? And then where do I live? It's not like I can just pick up and move with little to no money. And I don't have the resources to scout ahead for these things.

I'd like to stand up for what I believe in and make a change in the states, but these days, I'm not even sure what I am anymore. Democrat or Republican. No matter how much I try to figure it out, something I think I believe in steers me away from what I originally thought I was.

I'm probably not as informed on these topics as most of you seem to be, but for whatever odd reason, I find myself caring about politics a lot more lately......

[Rapscallion]

To quote Gwenyth Paltrow:""I find the English amazing how they got over 7/7. There were no multiple memorials with people sobbing as they would have been in America." What about 9/11?


There was a quote from a passing bloke interviewed in the wake of the Canary Wharf bombing by the IRA some years back. He was asked why he was working as if nothing had happened.

"We've been bombed by a better class of bastard, and that didn't work either," he said.

Short version - we've had many, many people try to bomb us consistently over the years. You get used to it, to a certain extent.

Rapscallion

[TNT]

I'd disagree with the notion that the US was isolationist until World War II. There was a time between the wars when that was true, but...

Let's not forget that the Monroe Doctrine of 1823 is still one of the cornerstones of US foreign policy. The end result hasn't been perfect by any means, but there have been only two major wars fought in the entire Western Hemisphere since then... the Mexican War and The US Civil War.

Interventions are also nothing new... without turning this into a crash course on US History, let's just consider Woodrow Wilson:

"Between 1914 and 1918, the United States intervened in Latin America, particularly in Mexico, Haiti, Cuba, and Panama. The U.S. maintained troops in Nicaragua throughout his administration and used them to select the president of Nicaragua and then to force Nicaragua to pass the Bryan-Chamorro Treaty. American troops in Haiti forced the Haitian legislature to choose the candidate Wilson selected as Haitian president. American troops occupied Haiti between 1915 and 1934."

Also consider this quote from the same source (which is rather opinionated, even by the lowly standards of Wikipedia, but I happen to agree with it):

"Wilson's idealistic internationalism, whereby the U.S. enters the world arena to fight for democracy, progressiveness, and liberalism, has been a highly controversial position in American foreign policy, serving as a model for "idealists" to emulate or "realists" to reject for the following century."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson

[rahmota]

TNT is correct. I will agree that between the wars America took and slowed down in the amount of meddling they did but there has always been meddling in one form or another. Be it meddling in the affairs of the amerind nations (like giving smallpox infected blankets and oh that who attempted genocide and forcible relocation issue) the entire monroe doctrine imperialism which has been used as an excuse to take over or bully most of central and south america.. History is rife with examples of amierca's meddling.

Raps: I always love hearing about that british stiff upper lip. A better class of bastard indeed....

Nightwolf: You dont have to really identify yourself or label yourself to be involved and care about your country and your world. All you have to do is figure out what you believe. It doesnt matter if some of what you believe is in the conservative columns or if its in the liberal columns or its somewhere else. If you look at my political and personal beliefs I lean way over towards liberal on most things. On some other thigns I am a strict constitutionalist. On some other things , not many I will admit, I am abit more conservative. Its not a package deal where you have to say I'm conservative so I strictly believe just this. Its your life order ala carte!

[squall]

Oh sort of like what Bush II has done to Iraq with his invasion and occupation?

It was already like that when Saddam was there. It was already like that when the British occupied it decades ago. It was like that when the Ottoman Turks had control of it. The only good thing I can say about Saddam is that he ruled with an iron fist and kept the ethnic groups from killing each other. Either by threats or bribes of course. So we removed the stability factor by displacing Saddam, I'll agree with that notion. What frustrates the American military and demoralizes them is the fact that all the good they do over there (building schools, arming and training the Iraqis, reconstruction efforts) is undermined every day by extremists and by liberal unrest at home.

And what frustrates me personally is....the support given to extremists by left wingers who say that they are just defending their own country from the tyranny of our country. That is not the rhetoric they use, but that is what is going on. And the youtubers cheer when an American soldier is killed and calls the Islamic extremists the true patriots. That is what really frustrates me. If anybody on here agrees with the slaughter of our troops by a bunch or religious whackos, then I hope I never meet you in person. Our troops did not set the agenda. Our government did. A true patriot must be ready to defend against their own government, as somebody mentioned. If you call yourself an American, you must support your troops, not necessarily the cause they fight for. Support the troops...for their welfare and their families, wives, children.

I'm not a Bush supporter, but I once counted myself as one of the people who voted for him. There are more of us than you think. If you choose to hate me for that, I don't care...turn the forum into your own personal whipping block for all I care. Liberals used to be considered the "voice of reason" and had an even tempered voice...now they are just as belligerent when it comes to their America hating, feminism, activism, and unabashed reverse discrimination. Most of the country in 2001 thought Iraq housed WMDs and Al-Qaeda sympathies, even Democrats. Bush was on the right track with Afganistan, but going into Iraq was a mistake, but nobody knew for sure. Nobody on this forum could tell me with absolute certainty back in 2001 that Saddam would never pose a future threat, that he didn't have WMDs.

[rahmota]

Well let me tell you this. I am a proud member of a military family. I have relatives in country in iraq and afghanistan. I have friends and people I went to high school with in country. One of my friends is a combat medic in fallujah last time i heard from him. I will not and do not ever cheer when I hear about a us soldier getitng killed, kidnapped or injured. I know that stab of fear when that headline comes up. That sudden rush that do i know this person is it my cousin? And no matter if it was or was not my cousin that soldier was someone's cousin, brother, mother, father, husband or close friend. You are right it is not the soldier that sets policy. They only carry it out. You are right about the definition of a patriot. You are right about needing to support the troops, gods know our CiC and the powers that be wont and dont.

That is one other reason I am so tired of dubya and his supporters and the uber patriots who try to cram the whole "if you're not with us you're against us" and "the president is always right" attitude down everyone else's throat. You do not waste the lives of american soldiers on personal agendas and vendettas. You do not waste the lives of american soldiers on political grandstanding to show how tough and proactive you are. This is the real world not some game of Risk where all that happens if you loose is they get put back in the box until you can get another set of cards.

What frustrates the American military and demoralizes them is the fact that all the good they do over there (building schools, arming and training the Iraqis, reconstruction efforts) is undermined every day by extremists and by liberal unrest at home.

Actually one other thing is very demoralizing to the troops and this is from the horses mouth as it where. The lack of support and direction in their mission by the high command back in washington. The troops in the field (at least the ones I have had direct contact or communication with) feel a very distinct lack of care, support or direction from the top. Like their hung out to dry and are just twisting in the wind. Most of them no longer care about the Iraqi people and are just wanting to come home and get back to life in the real world.

In 2001 I could have and would have told you that saddam was a beaten man and there where no WMD in iraq. Why? The UN inspectors said so, our own intelligence community said so, the international intelligence community said so. But when Dubya wanted to come up with a reason to invade and occupy iraq then all of a sudden there was "overwhelming evidence" and "Undisputable signs" that Iraq had WMD. Where the hades realm where they? Saddam may have been many things. Evil, megalomaniac, a bully but he was not an idiot. If he had had WMD he would have used them either in Gulf I or Gulf II. Especially Gulf II given the amount of rhetoric the US and Dubya gave about beating and getting Saddam.

Squall I do not hate you for you POV or for supporting Bush II. You and I may not agree on the priorties or necesary actions this country needs to take or actually on many things but I do not hate you for that. I and many Liberals do not "Hate" america. We do not like the direction this country has taken, the attitude that is prevelent in the powers in charge and would like to see some improvement in that for the betterment of all humanity not just a certain social elite.

I am sorry that you feel I am trying to turn this into my personal whipping post as you put it. I thought this was a discussion group. I am not trying to stop or interfere or otherwise even really put down anythign you say. If anythign I find your comments interesting even if I do not agree with all of them. It shows how detente and discussion can resolve an issue more so than fists and flying missles. You bring up a point I refute it, I bring up a point you refute it. Its a discussion not a monologue. You play a vital and important part in this discussion and I thank you for it. I mean even back in the roman times when the general would ride throuhg the streets iin triumph there would be a slave standing behind him whipsering in his ear that all glory is fleeting. "Sic tranist gloria mundis"

Its all about building a better future for our children and grandchildren to live in. What that vision of the future is about. IMO many of the ideals of the founding fathers have been perverted and twisted or outright forgotten. Is it so wrong to want to have a world where discrimination, hate, intolerance and social inequality no longer exist?

[AFPheonix]

And what frustrates me personally is....the support given to extremists by left wingers who say that they are just defending their own country from the tyranny of our country. That is not the rhetoric they use, but that is what is going on. And the youtubers cheer when an American soldier is killed and calls the Islamic extremists the true patriots. That is what really frustrates me.
That's Youtube, though. There's some serious idiocy over there in the commenters, and all you need to see to prove that is every "DON'T READ THIS OR YOU PENIS WILL FALL OFF!!! FORWARD THIS ONTO 12 OTHER MESSAGE THREADS" bullshit.
I think you'll find 99% of liberals who want this war to end are thinking PRIMARILY about the soldiers' welfare. They want them out of there so they aren't dying for a lost cause.
As for "left wingers" who say that extremists are just defending their own country: well guess what, quite a few resistance group see us as an occupier, and people from that side of the world don't take too kindly to occupiers. It's not applause for what extremists are doing, it's recognizing that not everyone thinks like a Westerner.

and had an even tempered voice...now they are just as belligerent when it comes to their America hating, feminism, activism, and unabashed reverse discrimination. Most of the country in 2001 thought Iraq housed WMDs and Al-Qaeda sympathies, even Democrats.

....Feminism? Yeah. Someone's been listening to a little too much Limbaugh, apparently.
A lot of the country, including many in my state, marched to tell the President that he needed to wait and be patient before starting this war.
Frankly, the only person I ever talked to who was FOR the war when it started was a Persian girl, oddly enough, and it was because of a family vendetta against Saddam for the Iran-Iraq war.

[CancelMyService]

Dragging the troops into the debate kind of bothers me, because it's one of the clubs used to beat anti-war people over the head with. To suggest someone hates America or the troops because they disagree with policy and/or how the troops are being used infuriates me. I don't know how wanting out soliders to not be put in harm's way for either no reason or the wrong reasons somehow equates to "you don't support the troops". Too many people think we should just wave the flag and cheer, and don't think about what the troops are being asked to do.

Also:


Most of the country in 2001 thought Iraq housed WMDs and Al-Qaeda sympathies, even Democrats.


That's because the people voting to authorize the war did so based on information that has since proven to be inaccurate at best or flat out lies at worst.

[squall]

....Feminism? Yeah. Someone's been listening to a little too much Limbaugh, apparently

Although Limbaugh has some valid points, I don't care much for him. He is bloated and has many moral issues of his own to deal with. One being his blatant abuse of presciption meds, but another rant entirely.

Yeah, I said feminism. How is it that in today's society, one can get away with writing a book called "Are Men Necessary" and being considered smart and sophisticated. Try the reverse, and you are called a sexist and woman hater, and reviled. Since the 80s, liberal media has pictured women as being the brains behind every marriage, the "boss" if you will, and the men have been given the image as being subservient, dolts, or jerks. This image receives no criticism, but I regard as a form of bigotry. In custody hearings, the ball is in the womens' court from the get go in determining custody, nevermind the ability of some women to support their children financially. All she has to say is that she suffered injustices at the hands of the man.

Another thing of mine is that so called "smart and sophisticated" tv reaches the soft underbelly of morality. Women using sex like a handshake, just barely learning a man's name (Sex in the City), and then going on to talk to their friends about it in all the glory details. Men in the show are pictured just as one-dimensional props for their sexual escapades. On "Will and Grace", I remember hearing somebody instruct a pregnant lady on what to eat during her pregnancy to be sure that her child will turn out gay. And besides, that drug addict lady with the high voice is annoying, let alone she is a drug addict with no moral scruples and parades it. All of this gutter trash is well received by critics. And if some of us don't like it, we are called "unsophisticated, bigots, and backwards". I just don't like where it is taking our society.

Granted, I am not a Christian. I have no religious preference. I still live by a moral code. I reject religious fundamentalism. But as a conservative, I consider myself among the "old guard" who vainly are trying to keep morality and decency in society. Unfortunately, they are no longer in vogue. Tv has become scandalous and in your face. Where religious people see trash tv as sinful, I see it as seedy and reviling in filth.

Speaking of which...liberalism is in vogue. Celebrities carry a big megaphone around anytime they have anything to say. The message has become loud and clear....there is no place for conservatism in Hollywood. In this celebrity obsessed culture, kids and young adults soak up this liberal propoganda like a sponge. Whatever Hollywood says goes. youtube and myspace are virtual liberal meccas, where voting Democratic is "in style". Granted there are also racists on youtube, the lowest common denominator can make their voice heard and have no fear of repercussions.

College professors are overwhelmingly liberal. Over 90% in ivy league schools high 80s and 90s in all others. In the hiring process, conservative applicants are single out. The status quo amounts to bigotry.

All of this is ensuring that the future of this country is governed by one party only.

At the heart of all this discontent....President Bush. He's ruined it for the rest of us. Now the whole country shall pay the price for years to come. But I make no apologies for my beliefs, and will continue to stick by them.

I will touch on the effects of recent civil rights and reverse discrimination another time. I will say this though....liberals are just as guilty as conservatives in keeping the playing field uneven.

[AFPheonix]

I'm not disagreeing with you that there's morons in the "liberal" camp. Stupid knows no race, color, or creed, as we all know from having to deal with the general public on a daily basis.
"Liberalism" as you see it today is a shadow of what it was even 30 years ago. This country overall is far more conservative than it ever has been. As for myself, I am not a member of any political party. I am registered independent, I have voted for and will continue to vote for who I feel is the best person for the job, regardless of what party they're in. I will grant you though that the Republican party got very bloated and full of itself over the last 8 years and is experiencing a decline. That's how politics work, however.

As for the feminism thing, ok, so there's a few stupid books out. (I'm still trying to figure out how the pregnant woman from that Will and Grace episode figures into the feminism argument). There's going to be extremists in any movement, regardless of what it stands for. Does that mean that they stand for what the majority stand for? No, of course not.
As for feminism in the media like Sex and the City, I'm afraid that you're going to have to accept that there's now going to be shows that have females in what are traditionally male roles. Consider older tv shows. Let's pick, oh, say, Star Trek as an example. Although it was a progressive show, females, with few exceptions, were flat characters there for the purpose of being boinked. Don't get upset just because there's a little turnaround.
White males still have it good compared to most everyone else, even white females, who are STILL making less on average than male coworkers who are equal to them in every way with the exception of genitalia.

And also addressing morality in the media:
Listen to old rock songs or rhythm and blues, and I'll bet money that your ears will turn red.

[CancelMyService]

Limbaugh has valid points?


Sorry, my brain kinda froze up after reading that and I need to reboot........

[squall]

I don't agree with Limbaugh most of the time. Especially when he started tearing down Michael J. Fox's nerve condition like a schoolyard bully who does not understand that some people can't help the way they are. Another far-right conservative I don't fully agree with is Ann Coulter. She is possibly the most evil conservative of them all. She says things like "we should scrutinize the Muslims flying on our airlines a little bit further, because after all, we can pick a Muslim out of a crowd and they are the face of terrorism as we know it."

As far as the Will and Grace example....that was not included in the feminism argument. That fit into my immoral television example. Different paragraph. Will and Grace is a liberal show always trying to push the envelope. Any gay person who tries to lean their child to a certain sexual preference is just as bad as a homophobe who says "no child of mine is gonna be gay", and you know a comment like that would receive negative press in the media, but the pro-gay comment is called, "smart, sophisticated, witty, hip." And the contradictary thing about pop culture is that they claim to be so accepting of gays, but the media has a field day when they manage to shove a gay celebrity out of the closet. And they talk about it more than those 14 soldiers that just crashed in the blackhawk helicopter the other day. A month later, the media is still talking about the new gay life of Lance Bass, and those 14 soldiers......."um....how many died again?" I find this outing of gays to be alienating, not accepting, like a freakshow for everyone to gawk at. Whether gays feel the same...I really don't know....some really seem to revel in the attention.

Somewhat off subject, I have no doubt the republicans will lose this presidential race, no doubt in my mind! And I accept that....for all that the republicans have been in a decline in the very immorality they claim to fight against. They have become arrogant, spoiled with power. They are fizzling out as fast as an untied balloon. I almost welcome the democrat victory that is sure to come. Anything (hopefully) better than the state the country is in right now.

But I choose to speak for the Republicans because nobody will stand up and speak for them. Overwhelmed in all corners of the internet, they seem content to remain quiet and ashamed as the world around them mocks them.

[squall]

And also addressing morality in the media:
Listen to old rock songs or rhythm and blues, and I'll bet money that your ears will turn red.
It's funny you mention that because I am a big fan of hard rock and metal. It is art. I am somewhat picky in my choosing though. What I find morally upsetting in some music....even in the older songs.....are the ones that try to get you into really bad illegal drugs. Like a certain old song called "Cocaine". I am willing to overlook content and lyrics if there is extreme talent.

[AFPheonix]

The gay outing in the media doesn't prove that the media is trying to equal opportunity for gays, it just proves that society in general is not entirely accepting of gays, therefore if someone who is famous is gay, it's still tittilating. I agree about the dubious newsworthyness. There's frankly a LOT on the news these days that frankly shouldn't be there, and that one chick that ripped up the Paris Hilton story because it was placed ahead of a war story by her producers deserves to be lauded.
Unfortunately, that's a side effect of a few other things going on in society, such as consolidation of newspapers, radio, and tv channels into fewer companies, declining newspaper readership by a less-aware populace, etc.
Ok, my bad on the Will and Grace thing. You had it in the same paragraph as a rant about the image of women on tv so I got confused. I haven't ever seen that particular clip, I stopped really watching tv in college as I couldn't get any reception in the town I was in and just have never really liked watching it since. I'll bet money though that the incident you're quoting was a gag. Yes. Something to be laughed at because it was ridiculous. Not some part of "the gay agenda" attempting to turn everyone gay.
My point with the old music comment is that there's never really been a strong current of morality in anything. Hell, Shakespeare had a bit about not being able to get an erection when drunk in Hamlet, for crying out loud.

[AFPheonix]

But I choose to speak for the Republicans because nobody will stand up and speak for them. Overwhelmed in all corners of the internet, they seem content to remain quiet and ashamed as the world around them mocks them.

Uhhhhh......the Republicans are still in power in 2 branches of government and hold sway over about half the country. I don't think they need that much white-knighting. In any case, there's enough conservative sites around that I think they're ok. The internet is a big place. If you can find havens for transgendered furries, there's definitely places to find Republicans :D

[Rapscallion]

Hell, Shakespeare had a bit about not being able to get an erection when drunk in Hamlet, for crying out loud.

Wasn't that in Macbeth, or is there a similar scene in both?

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

OKay Squall: You know there are 400+ channels on tv and even more on radio. I am sur eyou can find somethign you like and want to watch while leaving what others want to watch alone. I mean I do not like everything on tv for a variety of reasons ranging from my brain hurts at how stupid it is (spongebob, south park etc...) to I find it personally disgusting. Usually those are the sickly sweet sacharin filled painless G rated crude that the christian conservatives are alwys touting as fun family friendly television. BORING! I am sorry but I do not want to go back to the 50s tv where a person could not even be allowed to say the word pregnant much less showing two people in the same bed.

Like AFP said Sex is a part of entertainment and culture. look at the history of the printed word going clear back to the christian bible. Yes even the christian bible has sex in it. Song of Solomon anyone? And please do not say that is just an allgory for love of your god as thats just a cop out. It is blatently and apparently a love sonnet (and very erotic one) to the lover of the writer. Also the Khama Sutra is a religious text of the hindu. Nothing subtlke about that and it is definately one that the followers are supposed to practice.

Sex is nothing but a natural normal healthy part of a culture, society and person's life. To keep it hidden and shameful is what is sick and wrong. Yeah using it for cheap laughs and sudden ratings is stupid but then again making a woman cover her belly button or wear a burka because its a shameful thing to see is stupid too.

Will and Grace is a show I dont watch. Why? Not because its offensive or insulting. Although I do have a few homosexual friends who get a bit miffed at it on occasion. But mainly because I find the story uninteresting and ungripping. But do I want to see shows like that banned merely because I find them stupid or insulting to my brain. Well to be honest no. I may not like them I may not want my children watching a spongebob or south park but thats my choice and right as a parent and not the business of the government, church groups or anyone, and I REPEAT ANYONE else! It is my life and my children's life. I am the adult and I control the remote. I dont wanna watch a show I turn the channel. You dont wanna watch a show change the channel thats what they made more of them for.

Yeah I too am irritated by the dumbing down of the media. But thats just a by product of the rise of capitalistic values where money and what can be sold means more than the truth or anythign else. And lets face it the newsmedia are first and foremost a business. If telling the public about britney's latest mistep or the latest homosexual to be outed sells more than dead and dying and injured soldiers then they are going to go with the homosexual affairs of celebreties everytime. Just some more vaunted capitalistic values there. Nothing liberal about that.

About the homosexual attention getting etc... I have a good friend who is a homosexual. He hates the way the conservatives portray homosexuals as pedophillic evil immoral scum. I mean before he came out he was an eagle scout and shook hands with the governor and all that jazz. He comes out of the closet and hes forced to turn in his eagle scout badge. Hes prohibited from marrying the person he loves. If anyone finds out they hide their children away from him. Excuse me hes homosexual thats a totally different thing than pedophile. Want to find a pedophile you'll have a better luck looking in the catholic church. Nothing personal just straight up facts. My friend hates the attention from hate groups and having his car spray painted with such lovely terms of endearment as "faggot" and worse. All thanks to the attitude of hatred and intolerance brought about by the conservative christian morality police. And I'll stop right here on that before I let my temper get me in trouble.

But I choose to speak for the Republicans because nobody will stand up and speak for them. Overwhelmed in all corners of the internet
HA! Its a big internet and believe me there are places that are definate republican and conservative strongholds. I got ran off a site because I wasnt republican enough. I am grateful that it took a british site run by a brit to let a yankee speak out against wealth and priviledge and say things that gasp where not politically correct republican propaganda. (Now thats irony in action) If you cant find these places then either you're not looking hard enough or soemthing is wrong with your search engine.

Raps: I am not certain about that. I think I recall it in both plays but it has been abit since I've read either in their entirety. But then again Many of his plays have a bit of naughty bawdy parts in them. Chaucer's canterbury tales has ass kissing. There is mention of a lady's beard.. etc..... Whats old is new again. The only difference is with the world web and sat tv we can have instant distribution in glorious full stero sound and high definition color of this stuff.

[AFPheonix]

Wasn't that in Macbeth, or is there a similar scene in both?

Rapscallion

Oh probably. I haven't read the play since I was in high school. I just remember I was the only one in my class who got what he was talking about.

[TNT]

Somewhat off subject, I have no doubt the republicans will lose this presidential race, no doubt in my mind! And I accept that....for all that the republicans have been in a decline in the very immorality they claim to fight against. They have become arrogant, spoiled with power. They are fizzling out as fast as an untied balloon. I almost welcome the democrat victory that is sure to come. Anything (hopefully) better than the state the country is in right now.

But I choose to speak for the Republicans because nobody will stand up and speak for them. Overwhelmed in all corners of the internet, they seem content to remain quiet and ashamed as the world around them mocks them.

Actually, I take the exact opposite view... the Republican presidential candidate is a lock in this election. The Republicans could nominate Tazzy the T-girl! -- my kitty -- and she'd win.

The population distribution in the US is such that Democrats will have a difficult time winning a presidential election in the near future... I still maintain that the only reason Bill Clinton got elected was the Perot factor.

Hillary Clinton will never be elected President. The Republicans dream of her being nominated because it'll be almost too easy. She's left a slime trail in actions and writings that she'll never overcome.

Barak Obama? If he were Republican, he'd be a lock already. As a Democrat... maybe someday, but not now.

Going back to another post you made, Squall, about the song "Cocaine." I used to be a member of a "family-friendly" social club that had karaoke nights. Some apprentice madman had his very young daughters (somewhere around 8 and 10 years old) get up and sing that song. That moment reinforced the idea that no matter how stupid the world seems, the reality is a whole lot worse.

[Rapscallion]

The Canterbury Tales have quite a bit of bawdy wording and actions in there, but it's immersed amongst a sea of Middle English - quite impenetrable without a translator.

By the way, thanks for the compliment :D

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

I've not given up on this election totally yet. I will agree that it is probably going to be bitter, ugly and at least as close if not as questionable as the last two have been.

The dems dont seme to be getting their stuff together and the republicans are either trying to distance themselves from the quagmire dubyas dug or ride the wave from the last election. Hoping that the same old hate and anger and fear buttons can still be hit for one more trip to the bank.

Regardless this election is probably going to see a lot of the same stuff different year messages going on with nothing new, original or actually useful being said or done. And then people wonder why voter turn out decreases and people say they cant trust their government to do whats right or useful.

The sad thing is this country has become bloated , arrogant and decadent. Yes I know people have been saying that for years but the further along we go the more that becomes true. Ask a roman citizen in the declining years of the republic or the empire and they would tell you that rome was as strong and glorious as ever. Sound familiar to modern day america

Raps: True there is that about the Tales but then that just means we need to teach better and more stringent english lit classes. I bet if you told some of the kids about the sex and violence in much of the classics they might get interesed. Maybe. Hopefully.

And your welcome about the compliment. Its the way I feel.

[ArenaBoy]

I'm only addressing the first post in this topic.

Being somewhat of a conservative, I have to say if you bloody well dislike the country you live in, why don't you just leave?

Some people may not leave for the following reasons:

1. Finances. Moving is expensive and I can only imagine moving abroad is even more expensive. I've given thought to moving to another country but I can't as I don't have the money.

2. Some people may love their country. The ones that do are the ones going to make changes and do all they can to make those changes. I don't mind them doing that.

3. Finding a job. Hard to do when you have immersed yourself in a brand new country.

4. Finding a home. See #1 & 3.

To be honest, I've considered moving to another country. For me, it's because I personally think that there's nothing for me here. I've considered Canada and Australia for various reasons. I would move but for me it's a financial situation and other things.

However, there is nothing wrong with questioning your government.

[Boozy]

To be honest, I've considered moving to another country. For me, it's because I personally think that there's nothing for me here. I've considered Canada and Australia for various reasons. I would move but for me it's a financial situation and other things.

It sure would be easier to get your soccer fix if you left the US! For some reason that sport has just never caught on in America the way it has everywhere else.

Maybe David Beckham's arrival in LA will change that.

Sorry for the off-topic blathering, I'll stop now. ;)

[ArenaBoy]

Hey Boozy!

http://fratching.com/showthread.php?t=23

Off topic, soccer is the last reason I'd want to move. I get plenty of coverage here.