Ghosts and Angels

[Mr Slugger]

Ok I figured I'd throw this one out for debate. When I went to sunday school as a kid the teachers used to talk about angels, god, etc.

Someone asked if ghosts were angels. The teacher replied ghosts don't exist, and that was not the only time I heard that. Like I've heard many times from people who believe in angels that they don't believe in ghosts. So I'm kinda confused because ghosts are supposed to be people that have not crossed over yet. And angels are supposed to be those that crossed over.

[Slytovhand]

Well, if you're talking 'Biblical' angels, then no, that's not true. And in the Christian mythos, then it would be fair to say that Christians wouldn't believe in ghosts, yet still believe in angels.

Angels were created by God prior to humans. Humans have a soul, and when the body dies, the soul will either a) go to Heaven, b) sit in purgatory until Judgement day, or c) go to Hell. Heaven, Hell and Purgatory do not mix with the physical realms in any way.


Those are not the beliefs that I hold, just indicating what others (are supposed to) believe.

[joe hx]

Maybe the person was asking if what people think are ghosts are actually angels instead?

[powerboy]

See this is what gets me. They say that there is no such thing as ghosts. Then what about the holy Ghost?

[joe hx]

Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit

my take on that is that the holy ghost/spirit is just a manifestation of God's love

[Flyndaran]

Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit

my take on that is that the holy ghost/spirit is just a manifestation of God's love

It's that kind of non-answer that made me laugh when I was six and attended sunday school.
As a rationalist atheist, I don't believe in either ghosts or angels.

[Boozy]

I believe in neither ghosts nor angels (although I cannot deny the possibility they exist).

But one thing strikes me as funny: I've met more than a few Christians who believe wholeheartedly in angels, but laugh at the idea of ghosts. :confused:

[BroomJockey]

I've met more than a few Christians who believe wholeheartedly in angels, but laugh at the idea of ghosts. :confused:

As far as I can tell, that's a simple explanation. Angels were created by God to move among people, so that's fine. But God created the human soul to only be on the mortal plane while housed in flesh, and to move on to their reward or punishment as merited after death. If a ghost is simply a soul that hasn't passed through the veil, that's in direct contravention of God, who has dictated no spirit shall remain on earth. Therefore, ghosts can't exist.

[Flyndaran]

As far as I can tell, that's a simple explanation. Angels were created by God to move among people, so that's fine. But God created the human soul to only be on the mortal plane while housed in flesh, and to move on to their reward or punishment as merited after death. If a ghost is simply a soul that hasn't passed through the veil, that's in direct contravention of God, who has dictated no spirit shall remain on earth. Therefore, ghosts can't exist.

Eventhough the old testament has a few instances of the living talking with the dead.

[BroomJockey]

Eventhough the old testament has a few instances of the living talking with the dead.

Like they care about that. That's passed off as paganism, souls not under God's dominion. That, or a gift from God, or pick whatever rationalization you want.

[Flyndaran]

Like they care about that. That's passed off as paganism, souls not under God's dominion. That, or a gift from God, or pick whatever rationalization you want.

I will always find it funny/sad that so many briliiant people have spent so much time trying to justify the most ridiculous of religious claims.

[BroomJockey]

I will always find it funny/sad that so many briliiant people have spent so much time trying to justify the most ridiculous of religious claims.

Yeah, me too. Ever seen the movie Dogma? Funny. And true. "You can change an idea. A belief is harder. People have died for it, killed for it."

[Flyndaran]

Yeah, me too. Ever seen the movie Dogma? Funny. And true. "You can change an idea. A belief is harder. People have died for it, killed for it."

I think that it really is like that. Believing in anything 100% leads to insanity and violence.
Even as a born atheist, I try to imagine a world with a God. I usually fail, but I try nonetheless. I try to imagine sasquatches like my father supposedly saw when he was 12. I fail due to the sheer unlikeliness of it, but I still try.

[Slytovhand]

Like they care about that. That's passed off as paganism, souls not under God's dominion. That, or a gift from God, or pick whatever rationalization you want.

You know that doesn't actually make a lot of sense??

Whether it's 'paganism' or 'gift from God', they still exist, and it still happens.

Besides, in the Christian mythos, nothing is outside of God's dominion.. he's just willing to let a few things be handled by others.


Flyn - believing 100% in logic? Or Reason?? Or science?

[Flyndaran]

...
Flyn - believing 100% in logic? Or Reason?? Or science?

The scientific method is by far the most reliable way we have to define and study reality. That reality itself might be incomprehensible becasue god, or the machine keeps important information from us is fun to speculate on, but not very sane to dwell on.
I find scientific study to be 99.99999999999999% the right way to come at reality.

[Slytovhand]

I get that you have to say that, being an atheist, but I won't agree with it - not without at least throwing in 1 word...'this'.

'This' reality.

We who follow other beliefs use the term 'alternate' realities. They're all real, they all have their own boundaries and laws, but they're different. Will scientists be measuring them - not likely in the short term. Does that make them any less real... probably to those who can't measure them. Do they make a difference to the lives of those who are able to access them - most definitely, and profoundly, yes!

Which leads to a real 'scientific' question - do subjective responses have objective reality?

(and we've changed threads.. :p)