Problems with Newapagiccans from a heathen.

[bunnyboy]

Well I was reminded of something from a few years ago when I first went towards Heathenry (basically Germanic reconstructionist paganism.) Was looking to have a Hammer of Thor (kinda the defacto symbol of heathenry since the other two the vaulknot and the fyfolt cross (swastika) have natsy associations.)

A little background here, Seattle has three occult/new age shops, one of which is pretty much purely occult (uhm we'll call it rim of the circle, or rim for short) another that's more along the lines of new-age ecological buddha-wicca occultism (which I'll call terra-elements), and one that's basically your go to place for oils, inscence (whole and stick), and associated things (which will be menzig toto.)

Ok looking for a Hammer of Thor.... first thought was hey I'm by pike's place, and I know Menzig wont have it, so I'll try terra-elements, they seem to be an ok place.

boy was I wrong... asked if they had any (since the jewelry was kept behind the counter and got a lovely skreed about how I was what was wrong with the earth religions movement (well I know I wasn't but she was meaning heathen not me so I let that part slide), and why couldn't I learn to like something that was older like Wicca, and I forget what else, because I was on my way out the door.

so next stop was Rim which is run by some pretty cool people, ones who actually seem to be interested (one's a member of the local AMORC chapter as well as the leader of one of the local non-fluffy covens) so the reaction I get when perusing the norse/runes/heathen section, not a batted lash, not a single snide comment, just a general can I help you find anything, found both the hammer and a couple of books I've pretty much destroyed through constant reading, re-reading and use over 2 years)

so what's the real rant here... I dunno, guess it's just my distaste for the newapaggicans (new age pagan wiccans, sorta another way of saying fluffy bunny) especially, as well as the oh so great aryan warriors who tend to tarnish a good thing that gives me moral support (Asatru) with their bs (nazism) which is why I have to get "lectures" from fluffy types like the terra-elements lady.


oh yeah there's other reasons why I hate this new breed of wicca (the post-ravenwolf kind where fluff seems to abound) but the general intolerance for those of us who are reconstructionists (Asatru, Hellenismos, Religio Romuva, etc) because obviously we're doing it because we're racists who hate anything that isnt Norse/Greek/Roman or because we tend to be a bit more scientific in our studies of religion (we are trying to RECONSTRUCT the old ways as best we can) rather than pick up a book with OOOH PRETTY COVER and skim is probably the biggest of the lot of why it's bugged me enough to run on and ramble.

The other parts would be tales for another time.

[SorryIsGoodEnough]

I've pretty much accepted that I'll always be agnostic because I can't find peace with any religion. I know that you find annoying fluffbunny zealots under any umbrella, including Paganism, but I just don't have the patience.

I live in Redmond. I am hoping to find people in the Seattle area who can point me in the right direction without being condescending.

[Nyoibo]

and why couldn't I learn to like something that was older like Wicca

Um... WHA? :confused:

What pisses me off about new agey fluffy is people who don't know a single thing about the background of what they claim to follow.

[BlaqueKatt]

What pisses me off about new agey fluffy is people who don't know a single thing about the background of what they claim to follow.

oh sweet merciful hamsters* yes!

Sadly most of the ones I've run into...did it to be "non-conformists"-sadly they don't have the sense to realize-guess what they're still conforming!!!!!



*hamsters can be surprisingly merciful.......

I've pretty much accepted that I'll always be agnostic because I can't find peace with any religion. I know that you find annoying fluffbunny zealots under any umbrella, including Paganism, but I just don't have the patience.

the best I can suggest is the UAA-or Unitarian Universalist Association-their principles can be found here (http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml)

And you have one in seattle (http://www.uuchurch.org/)

Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion that draws wisdom and inspiration from many sources. Unitarian Universalists include people who identify as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, and with other religious or philosophical traditions.

Atheists (people who do not believe in a god) and Agnostics (people who think that we cannot know whether a god exists) are more than welcome within Unitarian Universalism. Unitarian Universalism is unusual in its belief that a person can be very religious, spiritual, moral, etc. without believing in a god. There is no requirement to believe in a god of any sort within our faith. At last count, 19% of Unitarian Universalists said that they did not believe in any type of god.

[muses_nightmare]

why couldn't I learn to like something that was older like Wicca

Good lord I hate this! I'm a Kemetic recon (Egyptian) myself, and though I've never really had anyone be that particularly rude to me though. I've had arguments with people online about what they think is the "correct" version of the Ancient Egyptian religion. If you do any research at all you'd see that the Ancient Kemetics weren't hard polytheists, a lot of arguments centre around that idea.

Also, the amount of teenyboppers on messageboards trying to be all "occult" and "Magickal" is insane. Especially when they're just posting to ask about love spells and the like. :p

[Slytovhand]

Ok, I've had 2 good laughs so far...

First, the same one that others have - the 'something older, like Wicca'. hahahaha.... (I really hope they didn't say 'wicca', and just said 'mother earth worshippers').

And now, 'love spells and the like'... oh yeah!!!!

I got in 'trouble' once, cos I did a reading. I was asked about the whole humdrum 'love' thing. The cards didn't give any indications of that, but wanted to bring up something else. Funny how that suddenly translated to 'you're going to be alone for the rest of your life'... <sigh>

'fluffy bunnies' don't really practice what they preach! They tend to be fairly intolerant of anything that's not their own, and want to convert, because they know the truth (which is why they've gone all fluffy bunny-ish).

I'm really surprised that you had a hassle finding something so simple as a Thor's Hammer!!! (or the knots/cross... they're all over the place over here!)

[fireheart17]

Also, the amount of teenyboppers on messageboards trying to be all "occult" and "Magickal" is insane. Especially when they're just posting to ask about love spells and the like. :p

I remember something like this. I was about that age when I considered Wicca to be more or less interesting, but even I knew that love spells weren't meant to draw the guy you wanted towards you. They were more or less designed to help bring love into your life, but no specific guy.

As for those who call themselves Newapagiccans....o.O

[bunnyboy]

As for those who call themselves Newapagiccans....o.O


None that I know of, it's a term I coined due to running into these people amongst my friends (great people, but their spirituality is kinda... wonky at best, IMO)

Good lord I hate this! I'm a Kemetic recon (Egyptian) myself, and though I've never really had anyone be that particularly rude to me though.

Ah cool another Recon, I actually enjoy talking with other reconstructionists, and even Big Three (Gardenarian, Alexandrian, and I forget the one buckland was in) Wicca trads since they seem to be grounded, and don't go off on flights of fantasy during a debate or discussion.

I've had arguments with people online about what they think is the "correct" version of the Ancient Egyptian religion.

Not just Kemetics, most Recon movements seem to have this... just look at Folkish vs Universalist vs Racialist Heathenry... it's insane.

(I really hope they didn't say 'wicca', and just said 'mother earth worshippers').

I really wish that was true... by Mjollnir I do, but no it was Wicca.

I'm really surprised that you had a hassle finding something so simple as a Thor's Hammer!!! (or the knots/cross... they're all over the place over here!)

Kinda hard to find around here, the fyfolt is (as I pointed out) considered a bad symbol thanks to an Austrian and his Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei in 1932-1945 Germany, and the Valknut while nice really isn't my thing (I follow Thor more than the One-eyed One). And yeah there used to be a few places that had Hammers, but once Wicca became the big thing, it was pentacle this, five pointed star that... you get the idea.

actually I was reminded of something from a while back, about some essays, that kinda explained why us recons tend to dislike most non-big three Wiccans... one was "The Hammer and the Pentacle" (IIRC) the other was a Hellinismos follower who had a discussion with a Wiccan. Always thought it was funny by how the Wiccan got squicked by even the THOUGHT of sacrifice (in this case saving and burning a portion of their food to the gods.)

Yeah there's quite a bit more,,, had one ask if during a mock battle I would ever throw a mock spear over the other group (a way to dedicate the battle dead to Odhin)...

lets just say I said no, since I didn't want there to be any real death in that case... he seems to like turing fake sacrifices and dedications into real ones...

[bunnyboy]

And now for a little background of why the whole newapagiccan thing bugs me... though to be honest it's why I went towards it in the First place.

We'll start off in high school, had a few friends who we pagan, of an eclectic sort, one was a pretty stable solitary Wiccan (one of the rare few who weren't fluffy) the others were people looking for something spiritual, then where was Jeff.... Jeff was my first encounter with newapagiccanism... and out of all he was probably the one that actually made sense, he might have been so ecclectic it made my head hurt at points, but his theology and cosmology was at least consistent and not new agey (he actually recognized that there were two sides to divinity, tried to stay as close as he could to his own concepts without changing it too much and recognizing that it wasn't THAT old.) All those good points however were brought down by one point, he did have a bit too much dark focus, but meh, he was generally a good guy and if given the chance to actually read good books on the subject wouldn't have been as eclectic.

Then came Lexus... of all the ones I've run into, he's the worst.... to get his eclecticism, imagin what would happen if you combined pop-shaminsm with pop Native Americanism with Werewolf the Apocalypse, with crap some of us who had experience in the occult threw his way to send him off onto fools errands, with something new he found interesting... ok so this was mostly my fault...I tossed a load out there, and never told him it was fake... I seem to like his spirituality better when I go do my V:TM LARP on Saturdays... only have to deal with playing one character and it's relaxing. He attracted so many people around him that were just like him, one of which was pretty much an Otaku-kin....*shudders* wasn't Jenny Nova, but damn she was close.

and finally the straw that broke this camel's back.... Janae.... dear lord, it wasn't bad enough that she was a not there roomy (was at the place I was living for a week or two out of the month total) but no, she was like Jeff in the being consistent (in word at least) but like Lexus she would change if anything could disprove her... for example, she was one of the 2012 is the END OF THE WORLD... until I looked it up and pointed out that no place actually has that... so she started appending it with... as we know it, once you got down to it she was really more like lexus with better conceptual and speaking abilities... considering she had to get the few people she wanted to teach her ways high to teach them, doesn't surprise me... also like Lexus I tossed in fake crap... having started going back to Heathenry slightly before she moved in... at least it did some good, other guy roomy took her less seriously and wanted to learn something that was at least based consistently and ordered... turned him towards wicca and I dunno if he's looked back.


oh almost forgot, there was a common theme here, I couldn't get away from these people... and each just got worse, I still find it funny that someone I knew in High School who was 17 at the time, and was pretty much brand-spanking new to earth based/pagan religions had more forethought and better conceptions than half the newapagiccans I've met, these are just the big three, there's a few I've had the displeasure to meet that make these three look positivly sane in some of their beliefs (Jeff was partial to focusing on a dark/light battle being waged by us humans on the Astral Plane [not too bad, but still wonky-ish], Lexus [according to himself] IS both Coyote and the son of Coyote, and Janae is so old in spirit she saw the universe being created... and was various deities in previous lives [damn shoulda asked what she whispered in Baldr's ear.], could read people so well that she knew I was Prometius in a past life [never got an explanation on how an Immortal could die before the respective end time] and was oh so worried about someone casting dark magic on us [who just turned out to be someone trying to find his friend's window] and who had to resort to Hashashin training tactics to make her crap sensible Yeah I'd say she was probably what cemented me in Heathenry, we may have our disagreements, but at least we agree on the nine worlds, and some of the same values, and they don't change with every new age crack-pot theory.... mostly.

[Nyoibo]

one of which was pretty much an Otaku-kin....*shudders* wasn't Jenny Nova, but damn she was close.

*headdesk* We need a smilie for that.

Who is Jenny Nova though?

[bunnyboy]

*headdesk* We need a smilie for that.

Who is Jenny Nova though?

Google her and don't go to the ED page... she's basically someone who believes she's JENOVA from FFVII (and a few other things from before that obsession if some people are telling the truth) basically someone who will come into a roomy situation, try and take over the house so she can get a cult of FFVII otaku-kin going.... better yet a first hand experience with her. (http://www.demon-sushi.com/warning/)

From what I understand from the Otakukin I met's ex she pretty much did this repeatedly with any game she liked... I met her when she was Riku.

and yes we do need one for headdesk, would help me and Smiley for all the pains in faith we go through.

[lordlundar]

Is it wrong that in reading this thread This popped into my mind? (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp10312006.shtml):D

[Nyoibo]

I was thinking about the ones where Davan goes to Salem, but that's an awesome one too.

[muses_nightmare]

Not just Kemetics, most Recon movements seem to have this... just look at Folkish vs Universalist vs Racialist Heathenry... it's insane

It really is, seems like no matter what you're doing it's not the "right" way for someone or another, and most of the time (okay, the majority) they're talking out of their ass. For some reason a lot of these fluffys think that they can read one paragraph from a New age book and know exactly what you should be doing in your religion. *headdesk* It's why I've left a few messageboards in the past. I just got fed up.

[Hyena Dandy]

I consider myself pretty new age, because what I believe is a synthesis of various standard and new-age religions. My beliefs have a lot of contradiction, but simultaneously one of the things I believe is that the truth is, if not unknowable, entirely irrational, and can be multiple things at the same time. Since what I believe now didn't exist before, it must be new-age.

But I know what you mean about the fluffybunny types. For the most part they don't even know what they claim to believe. A lot of the publications for the friends I have who believe those things basically come up with new things to believe every week.

I believe every human being has the capacity to understand the truth, but they need to discover it on their own.

[bunnyboy]

I consider myself pretty new age, because what I believe is a synthesis of various standard and new-age religions. My beliefs have a lot of contradiction, but simultaneously one of the things I believe is that the truth is, if not unknowable, entirely irrational, and can be multiple things at the same time. Since what I believe now didn't exist before, it must be new-age.

But I know what you mean about the fluffybunny types. For the most part they don't even know what they claim to believe. A lot of the publications for the friends I have who believe those things basically come up with new things to believe every week.

I believe every human being has the capacity to understand the truth, but they need to discover it on their own.

And this Dandy is why I respect some new agers and even some newapagiccans, I look for a little consistency, hell contradictions are a part of that, given just the eddas I'm supposed to believe that mankind was either A) the descendants of Heimdallr, B) Made from wood and given various gifts by Villi Valli, and Ve, or C) was formed from a part of Ymir, any could be right, but damn it's at least consistent along most parts in that the aesir made us from something, but it's when they seem to on a whim change it because of ooh new shinee book or even me dropping a little misinformation (such as the whole thing of both Lexus and Janae believing in a type of spiritual entity called a Voidwalker.... and Janae played WoW *headdesk*).

It's not all the new age's fault Dandy, it's the whole prevalent mindset in the occult community that's gone from serious study to whatever feels good.

[Hyena Dandy]

It's not all the new age's fault Dandy, it's the whole prevalent mindset in the occult community that's gone from serious study to whatever feels good.

Yeah, that's the thing. There's a difference between what feels right (And in my case I make a point of doing extensive readings to see if it is right) and what feels good. The universe isn't here just for making you happy.

[Nyoibo]

That depends on your beliefs.

[bunnyboy]

That depends on your beliefs.

True, but truthfully what I think Dandy means and what I meant was the escapist aspect, take Janae for example, she's basically got bone growth in muscle, and works jobs that had she actually gone onto the other boards would have filled quite a few posts on both the SC part and the morons in management part, but when she was being "magickal" she was an old soul who was training people she was close to for the upcoming 2012 astral apocalypse that would change the other plaes forever.... and much like her Lexus is a constantly unemployed chubby guy with seemingly no goals in life except to bed any guy he wants, but in his "magickal mode" he's coyote incarnate, and the protector of all around him (three guesses as to what's wrong with THAT picture) and his big thing is he's coyote since he had a liking for them as a kid, and for a long while his furry persona was a coyote.

now I have two furry persona, one's the usual one I use and is usually a rabbit, not because on some mystical level I'm a rabbit or it's my spirit animal, but because I just like them and when I came up with the character/persona rabbit furries were rare as hens teeth. The other is sort of an alternate character that I do so I can at some point make a suit, and while he does have some aspects of heathenry t him (wears a Hammer, has the name Garm, and if I can figure out how to do it will have "one eye") he'only called that as a nod, not because deep down I'm an incarnation of Garm.


BTW Garm is to Hel what Kerburos is to Hades, though Garm howling is supposed to start Ragnarok, since he's one of Fenrir's brood, kinda makes him a not good thing towards the Aesir.

And now you know...

[Nyoibo]

I know who Garm is, spent a lot of my childhood studying norse mythology.

[bunnyboy]

I know who Garm is, spent a lot of my childhood studying norse mythology.

Oh wasn't directed at you Nyoibo, was just putting it out there for those that didn't.


ANd on a related note, I'm surprised with all the wolves in the fandom none hae ever taken the name Sköll, or Hati or GArm, but damn if there aren't plenty of Fenrir/Fenris named ones.

[Nyoibo]

Go figure, I guess some just like the idea of biting off the hand of a god and having a sword shoved through their mouth.

But the river of blood and drool? Eww. :p

[bunnyboy]

Go figure, I guess some just like the idea of biting off the hand of a god and having a sword shoved through their mouth.

But the river of blood and drool? Eww. :p

Heck the reason I chose Garm is for the whole, my howl will bring forth the end of the Gods... thought Hati and his brother are pretty good too.... I wonder how those two would taste.... methinks Skoll likes his meat rare and hati likes it hockey puck done. *snerks*

[Flyndaran]

I hope no one gets offended when I say that I think all new age stuff is just as silly as the big three desert religions.
I still say that mythology is just someone else's religion.
At least as an atheist, I don't have to do any more reading. It's simple. I don't believe. There, that's it for the research. ;)

[IDrinkaRum]

I know some who say they are Pagans. I know some who say they are Wiccans. They don't try to convert people though. I do know a guy who wanted to be Wiccan(?) but the local Wiccans said he couldn't be one because he was male. (I think it was the Wiccans, but can't remember - I have an old brain :p).

My mother thought I was an odd duck when I was growing up. Between the ages of 8 to 12, I was very into the the Greek myths. I had memorized all the Greek Gods that were listed in the books, I could tell you their Roman counterparts. I knew the myths practically by heart. I haven't thought about that in years though.

So ... ahem ... back to topic ... Ummmm ... Not sure what else I can add. :D

[Nyoibo]

I hope no one gets offended when I say that I think all new age stuff is just as silly as the big three desert religions.
I still say that mythology is just someone else's religion.
At least as an atheist, I don't have to do any more reading. It's simple. I don't believe. There, that's it for the research. ;)

Makes me think of the Rowan Atkinson skit as the devil "Atheists, your here, well I guess you're felling a right bunch of twits right now aren't you?"

[Gravekeeper]

Haha, Newapagiccans. Sounds like something that lives in the Himalayas and is routinely shaved for wool. >.>

I dabbled in the whole wicca/new age thing when I was younger. I observed two things about it:

1) It was very hard to get anyone to answer a specific question as no one had any fucking idea of that which they professed to follow.

2) They were very haughty and looked down on mainstream religions. Typically Christianity. Which they had usually just come from and were checking out Wicca since it sounded cool and was on Charmed. It seemed like they had traded in Arrogant So Called Christian for Self Important Newapagiccan.

Obviously real Wiccans aren't like that. But I find most loudly self proclaimed Wiccans are Bubblegum Wiccans that think its cool cus they saw it on TV. Sadly I've also encountered a few Buddhists in the same vein. Who claim to be Buddhist just because it sounds cool.

Kemetic Recon is a term I haven't heard before. Is that what ancient Egypt had going? I'll have to look into that. I love the old old old religions ( Stuff on the BC side of the scale ) as they often have more fascinating stories/fables/etc and more sort of straight to the point teachings even if some are outdated.

Buddhism is my main at the moment, but I sub spec into a few other philosophies. Some of the native American stuff, such as the Grandfather Truths, is just perfect wisdom, really that gels well with Buddhism. As does Shintoism of course which I also find fascinating as it fills in a lot of the blank spots in Buddhism. Part of the Dalai Lama's teachings is to keep seeking ever better answers. Even if they are not from Buddhism. Clinging to beliefs just because, even when their proven wrong or outdated, is just being stodgy and stifling your own growth.

Buddhism is merely as close as I've gotten so far. I do not agree with all of it, but the great part about Buddhism is you don't have too.

[bunnyboy]

Haha, Newapagiccans. Sounds like something that lives in the Himalayas and is routinely shaved for wool. >.>

Considering most just buy wicca books from Llewellyn. or any of the big new-age guys... I think they're pretty much that... well aside from living in the Himilayas.

And yeah, it's a great one if you can find one of the big three Trads (Gardenarian-Alexandrain/Gerogian/Stregheria Wiccan, but those have secrets they wont tell you until you get to the right degree, and are hard to find covens of in America. These in my opinion are pretty much along the lines of being a sort of new Mystery Religion, and pretty much recreate some of the things we know about those faithfully.

Then again Buddhism was what I was looking for, but meh, never liked the idea of Nirvana.

[Gravekeeper]

Then again Buddhism was what I was looking for, but meh, never liked the idea of Nirvana.

Buddhism is fun because you can take practically any quote or teaching from it, repeat it in Yoda speak, and it makes perfect sense. Hell in some cases it makes MORE sense than the original text. >.>

Noble truth of suffering it is, yeeees.

[Fire_on_High]

she can get a cult of FFVII otaku-kin going....


I've ran a kin chat room for...oh, 10+ years now, and opped in its direct predecessor for a couple years before that. We had one of the supposed Cetra come by some years ago...either right after the move to Dalnet or at the very end on Talk City, before they banned outside clients.

She was trying to pass off Japanese as the Cetra language. Mind, I'm not fluent, but enough to recognize it, even then...we're talking basics like "neko".

This foolishness has been around for a while now.

[Depot Denizen]

I am an atheist as well. However! I do enjoy reading mythology. It's fascinating stuff, and I love how a lot of it is written. There was a great class I took that had creation stories and legends, we looked at the Norse, the western Native Americans, Christianity, the Greeks, and I think a few others. Looked at old old stories from Sumerian and Mesopotamian religions as well.

As said, one man's mythology is another man's religion. Some stories are very well-written and give insight on how people viewed the world, and in some cases even offered sage advice for living one's life. In others...not so much. There are some aspects of Buddhism that I like, but I haven't really looked into things much since high school.

I larped a bunch and did SCA for a bit, that was fun. Some of my characters were deeply religious, but as for myself I see the world differently.

If you get some deeper meaning from life out of religion, then by all means have faith and practice it. If so, I applaud sticking to your guns. It sucks having people belittle you for having a different mindset. Now, I don't believe any of it and think the idea is a little silly, but if you truly, honestly believe it, then that's all that matters. Go, do good things to others. You could be the blackest witch, or the darkest Gothic or think yourself some otherkin, but if you're good person then I think it doesn't matter too much. Stranger things have happened. :P