Chivalry

[The Shadow]

How do you feel about it?

Do you think it's valuable? Useful?

If you're a man, do you practice it?

If you're a woman do you like it and find it charming, or patronizing and annoying?

As for my own thoughts...

Let me just say that the day I put my good coat or jacket on top of a muddy puddle so a woman can walk over it will be the day I have myself committed to the local asylum! :D

[AdminAssistant]

To start of with, I'm a girl. :D

Chivalry is very nice to a certain degree - opening doors and generally being nice. I don't expect, or want, a guy to always be getting up whenever I leave the table, and I'm not going to sit in a car while a guy walks around to let me out.

The guy I'm with now actually blew me away with that kind of stuff...and I realized that I'd been with so many jerks and jackasses that a guy actually being nice and thoughtful seemed odd. He does pay for the lion's share of our dates, but he's in a much better place financially than I am.

So, I think, yes, it's very nice, as long as it's not taken to a ridiculous extreme.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Chivalry is very nice to a certain degree - opening doors and generally being nice.

So, I think, yes, it's very nice, as long as it's not taken to a ridiculous extreme.

I don't see stuff like opening doors as being so much chivalrous as just basic common courtesy (and ftr, I am female). I don't expect, but appreciate, when people - of either sex - hold doors for me, and I will gladly do the same for anybody - of either sex - in return. It's all about manners, which are appealing in *any* person.

[guywithashovel]

I'm a guy (but my screenname should make that obvious).

When I'm going into a building, I'll often hold the door for someone who's coming in or going out at the same time I am regardless of what sex that person is. I think it should be more about courtesy than chivalry. However, I think it's bit over the top for a woman to sit in the car and wait for her guy to come around and open it for her.

[joe hx]

This is why I love double doors that most businesses have anymore - one person holds opens the door, so the other person walks in and holds the next door open for the first person.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I'm a girl. Tho I realise my name and avatar choice makes that difficult... O_o

Anyway, I don't expect men to be doing everything for me, but it's nice sometimes if a guy opens doors for me or offers to pay for a meal, especially if I'm broke at the time. However, I'd hate it if a guy was treating me like a mentally deficient helpless creature who was unable to do anything for herself. -.- There's a happy medium.

And I hold doors open for people if there be need; like for mothers with buggies. It's common courtesy.

[Nyoibo]

I open doors for people, I wait for women to sit first and a bunch of other stuff like that, not because I'm trying too hard, not because I'm being patronizing but because my grandmother taught me my manners and she was from the aristocracy in europe, she was taught the best of the best in manners and passed them on to me, that's how I was brought up.

[SorryIsGoodEnough]

The best boyfriend I ever had requested that I wait for him to come around and open the car door for me. It was just something he wanted to do. He always paid for our dates, waited until I took a bite of my meal before starting his, and was just generally...amazing.

I've had boyfriends since then who did not do as much, and I didn't hold it against them.

But I do like it when men open my doors for me and stuff like that. I think it's irresistibly charming.

[MaggieTheCat]

I think I'm pretty much with the rest of the gals on here. I will hold doors open for anyone if I see someone going in/coming out of the same building as me. I don't expect my husband to open the car door for me, or wait for me to sit at a table before he sits down himself, but I wouldn't mind if he did. He does always hold the door open for me when we go somewhere together, which is sweet and I like it. He does a few other things when we're at home that I guess could be considered chivalrous, like hold his hand out for me if I'm sitting on the floor and about to stand up. He does pay for most of the stuff we do out, too, like dinners and movies, but that's mostly because I don't have steady income right now.

Going too over the top, like putting a jacket down over a puddle or something for a girl, is a bit much, but general courtesy is always appreciated.

[Fashion Lad!]

I'm a man.

I'll hold doors for anyone. It's just the polite thing to do.

I pay for meals. I'll be the one to go get us something to drink. I wait until my lady sits down before I sit down. I've never had a girlfriend or lady wait for me to open their car door while sitting in the car. But I typically open it for them while they get in. I'll give up my umbrella, jacket... they always steal my baseball hats. I don't (can't) cook, but I always offer to clean up. They never decline that...

[powerboy]

I am a guy.

I will open doors for people going in or out. Actually surprised an older couple by running ahead of them and opening the door for them:D. Getting out of the car, they are on their own. I will unlock and hold the car door open so they can get in. I do that, so I know that nothing is going to happen to them. I do not put my coat down on a puddle. If we are taking a walk, I walk on the outside. If I have a coat on and they are cold, I will give them my coat.

[Peppergirl]

Just chiming in with the majority here. Despite being female, I try to show courtesy to anyone, regardless of sex.

One thing that used to trouble me was when I rode the bus to work and if an elderly psgr (male or female) would get on, and no one would get up to let him/her sit down. My mother raised me better than that. If any disabled/elderly person got on the bus, I always gave up my seat. I used to love the drivers who would berate people for not getting up, particularly because there are certain seats toward the front that had the disclaimer on them that they were for elderly/disabled.

I have instructed my now adult sons that they better not EVER let me catch them not giving up a seat to an elderly/disabled person, or in any similar situation to that.

I think it's important for both sexes to be polite, but for some reason it irks me more when I see the lack of empathy from a male than a female. I know it's not right, but I guess it was the way I was raised. :confused:

[Greenday]

Common courtesy I like. Chivalry, some stuff is fine, but others are over the top.

Buying a meal here and there - Nice
Paying for every meal - Over the top, could later lead to issues of "well, I always pay for the meals, so you should do this for me!"
Opening the doors to buildings - Nice
Going ridiculously out of the way to go around the entire car to open the door for someone perfectly able to do it themselves - Over the top
Putting a coat in a puddle - Grow some balls, wtf is that crap?
Pulling up the car when it's raining so the other person doesn't have to run in the rain - Nice, both genders should do it. The person driving should do it.
Pulling the car up when it's really nice outside just so the person doesn't have to tire out their feet from walking 10 feet - Very lame

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Guys, nobody puts their coat over puddles. That is simply a story about Sir Walter Raleigh, who allegedly threw an expensive cloak over a puddle so Queen Elizabeth could avoid muddying her feet. And it's even "allegedly" there.

I've been in the SCA for three decades, even, and even in THAT context I've never seen anyone do this. :rolleyes:

No one will think anyone is a Neandertal if they fail to do this.

[the_std]

I might be weird, but I think chivalry is a bit of a sexist term. Common courtesy should apply to all, regardless of gender. Men should not be held to higher levels of it than women just because women used to be "helpless". Nowadays, it strikes me as a guilt trip more than anything.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

It's not about men thinking you're helpless. It's about them respecting you.

And it DOES go both ways.

[Akasa]

It's not about men thinking you're helpless. It's about them respecting you.

I beg to differ. I had a boyfriend once who went on and on about being chivilrous, but as soon as he wanted me to do something he'd hold it over my head and use is as a guilt trip.
It's nice when its sincere, but there are guys out there who aren't and attempt to use it as a weapon.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, then, that guy was not being chivalrous. He was being a wad.

It's only chivalrous if the guy is actually being...you know... chivalrous.

[BroomJockey]

I beg to differ. I had a boyfriend once who went on and on about being chivilrous,

People who say they are something generally aren't.

Except for me. I'm an arsehole.

[powerboy]

People who say they are something generally aren't.

Except for me. I'm an arsehole.


I agree Broomy. You are an arsehole ;)

[Lace Neil Singer]

One thing that used to trouble me was when I rode the bus to work and if an elderly psgr (male or female) would get on, and no one would get up to let him/her sit down. My mother raised me better than that. If any disabled/elderly person got on the bus, I always gave up my seat.

I will say that I don't ever do that; not cuz I'm a nasty, rude person, but cuz I have a bad back and standing up on a bus can be agony for me. Before the motorbike accident that created the bad back tho, I would give up my seat to an elderly person. I still now will help a disabled or elderly person off the bus, or a mother with a buggy. Those things are murder to get off the bus folded up, especially if you have a couple of loose kids to hang on to as well.

[Boozy]

I agree Broomy. You are an arsehole ;)

And he's rude, apparently.

:p

Most chivalrous things I consider to be basic manners, and should be done equally by both sexes. Like holding the door for the person behind you.

I am distrustful of men who do ye-olde-tymey chivalrous things like standing when a woman enters the room, or seating a woman at the table by moving her chair for her. Those things do nothing to improve anyone's life. I find it awkward when someone else is handling the chair for me. I don't need a big production when I enter a room. Furthermore, those are things that some men do for women, but no woman would do for a man. Therefore I don't consider them courtesies -- I consider them a throwback to more sexist days.

[Falconess]

I have one story I usually tell people about, when they start talking about how guys have to open doors for women, and when my female friends start talking about how wonderful it is that their male makes them wait in the car, until he's run around to open it for her.

When I was 16, I had this boyfriend. He insisted I stay in the car and wait for him to walk around and open the door. He'd race ahead of me, to open the door, and if there was a second door, I was to stand there and wait for him to open the second one. He paid for every single outing, and snuck the check away, for his own b-day dinner, so he could pay it. In the winter (living in KC, MO), if it was 30F or below, he'd take his coat off and put it around me, even if I wasn't all that cold.

What happened to Lord Byron? Well, I kicked him to the curb. Now, the way I did it was not all that nice, and I realize (especially after reading this thread), that there are women out there who love that. That's wonderful, and I honestly feel terrible for hurting him. But I felt smothered!

It's nice, if I'm wearing a dress, if a guy opens the car door, so I can get in and situate myself, without having to worry about the door shutting on me, or my dress. If he reaches the door first, and wants to open it for me, I think that's fine. But I get so angry when a guy tells me I have to wait for him, to open any door. That's just not the way I work. I'm a pretty independent person, and I believe in efficiancy. If it's more efficiant for us to go our respective sides of the car and open our doors, do it. If you want to be a "gentleman" and open my car door, fine, but I'm capable of shutting it. And for the love of all things fuzzy, if it's freezing outside, don't worry, I can get my own door, go start the darn car and get the heater running!

I wish I could remember the name of the movie, who the actress was. But there's this movie, set durring the women's rights movement. A female teacher, who's also an activist, is teaching at a boarding school. She's trying to convince her female students that they don't have to be "Susie home-maker." When one of her students gets married to a man who expects her to be the perfect little stay-at-home wife, and raise a brood of children, the teacher pleads with her, "It doesn't have to be this way." to which, her student replys, "but this is what I've wanted my whole life!" Teacher is left standing there, with a dumb look on her face, trying to put it all together.

That movie really opened my eyes. Just because I'm independent, and refuse to rely on a man to pay for everything, and "take care" of me doesn't mean it's what all women want.

I'm a child of divorce. My parents, my grandparents, many of my friends' parents. I've seen what happens to a woman who relys on a man to take care of her. Not that I'm planning on things not working for me and my male. But I do get some comfort in knowing, if it does happen, and I'm alone, I can take care of myself.

A bit more extreme than simply door-holding. However, I think a truly independent woman, would have ended up just as irritated at that male, as I was. Oh, and just to end that story, he is now happily married, and has been, for the past 3 years, to a woman who adores his chivalric behavior.

[BroomJockey]

I wish I could remember the name of the movie, who the actress was.

Mona Lisa Smile, Julia Roberts and Julia Styles? I love that movie. Very powerful to me.

[Falconess]

YES!!! OMG thank you BroomJockey. Looooved that movie, very much. Really helped me, when I was younger, not understanding why I was the way I was. I was raised in a community where women were supposed to be good little housewives..didn't jive *laughs*

[McDreidel09]

I'm a woman ftr. :p

I like the little things. If he is ahead, he can open the door. I will do the same in return. If he wants to open the car door for me so I can get in, fine. I will unlock his door when he walks to his side. If he wants to give me his coat, I protest a bit, but take it anyway. I will snuggle closer so he can be somewhat warm. I find helping me get over a big puddle by holding my hand to be cute.

Twice a week, I do fencing. That is a HUGE chivalry sport. When the guys salute or bow to everyone, they tend to bow lower for the ladies. I do a little head bow back, but this act makes me blush.

I am an independent woman. I offer to help pay the bill or pay it entirely. I don't just "take" the actions he does. I do something in return.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I suspect McDreidel runs in the same circles...and does the same sport...as I do. :) She "gets" it.

It works both ways. She's right.

As for the "standing" thing Boozy mentioned, yeah, that's a little awkward, but hey, I live in the south so you deal with it. It depends on the situation. I walk into a business meeting, no. I walk into a roomful of my friends, no. I walk into a formal dining room, yes. Depends on the situation.

Like I've said before, it's not about sexism, it's about respect. Granted, it needs to be done with respect (I think we did talk about when it's not earilier in the thread, if I recall), but as long as it IS done with respect, I will appreciate it and reciprocate.

I should mention that Ivar, who features in many of my stories, does what he calls the "door lock" check. When out with someone he's trying to get to know, he'll let her into his car and then walk around to his side. If she fails to unlock the door, he's on alert that she may not be someone who is into the idea of mutual respect and courtesy.

Especially if it's raining.

It's a little thing, but it speaks pretty loudly.

[Boozy]

It's getting hard to find cars without remote entry -- or at least automatic locks. Ivar may need a new test pretty soon.

[Flyndaran]

Basing one's behavior on the sex of a person is by definition sexist. It's not always bad. It's sexist, but necessary to put urinals only in the men's room for example.

As a man, I don't have to deal with it that much. But I'm sure that if I were a woman it would grate on my nerves to be treated differently than a man.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I thought I'd give some information on the history of chivalry since I love the early middle ages and have studied them extensively. I hope you all find it interesting.

The ideas that later became part of the idea of chivalry were originally created and endorsed by the Catholic church during the early middle ages in order to protect the peasantry. The middle ages were a very harsh time to live in, and life for most people was hard, brutish and short. Those men who grew up to be stronger or braver or more cunning than average often ended up becoming warriors or knights. Violence was excessively common because of the manner in which feudal societies were constructed, and in between the periods of violence, these men who were successful warriors often behaved like bullies, wandering about and taking advantage of others who were weaker than them.

The clergy spent a lot of time trying to persuade powerful nobles and their warriors that it was unchristian and ungodly to prey on the weak and the innocent. It took a while, a couple centuries in fact, but eventually these ideas were accepted as part of the responsibility of being a knight.

Eventually the church became powerful enough to pass decrees which nobles and knights would follow---for the most part--- laying out serious punishments like excommunication for attacking or robbing churches, burning huts and stealing farm animals from peasants, attacking women and children and unarmed priests, engaging in battle on holy days and other such crimes. These kinds of behaviors were incredibly common among knights, and caused no end of social problems.

In later years, say after 1300 or so, society became less violent as the culture changed. Writers then began to romanticize the warriors of that earlier time period, and that's what we remember today, stories of knights in shining armor rescuing damsels in distress. But up until the 13th and 14th centuries, knights were widely feared and distrusted by the average European. Most of them were violent bullies. These fiction writers, such as Chretien De Troyes and Sir Thomas Mallory, helped create the idea of chivalry being a specific code of conduct for knights which emphasized honor, mercy, valor, and other such traits.

These writers were extremely popular in Victorian England, in fact anything to do with the middle ages became very popular during the 1800's, and the idea of 'chivalry' as a specific code of conduct for behaving around women dates from that era. Previously chivalry had not applied mostly to men's behavior around women, chivalry was actually seen more as a responsibility the powerful members of society had toward the poor and the innocent.

Anywayz, I hope you enjoyed this history lesson.

[BroomJockey]

chivalry was actually seen more as a responsibility the powerful members of society had toward the poor and the innocent.

Also known as noblesse obligé, or "noble's obligation."

[Flyndaran]

Also known as noblesse obligé, or "noble's obligation."

And like all social but not legal obligations more story than fact.

[blas87]

I do appreciate it when guys do nice things for me, but I don't get my hopes up all the time.

Although, I will NOT hold back and will lash out when guys start pulling crap like what my last ex did, and what my current boyfriend used to sometimes do, until he got the wrath of blas for it.

I HATE when you're the one driving, and you're putting your shoes on and getting your keys ready, and the person you're with just blasts out the door, flies down the stairs, and just runs right into the car and gets in. Gets in only to have to WAIT....dumbass....I'm driving. We aren't going anywhere until I get in and turn the car on....what the hell? And no...we weren't late. It was never a dire situation. God that just drives me fucking nuts......ex bf did it when he started losing interest, and the second I noticed current bf doing it, after a few times, I screamed at him and said "I'm not handicapped and I'm not purposely going slow. There's no reason for you to just go flying out the door and make me look like I'm holding up the show and you just sit there waiting for a car that won't turn on until I make it turn on!"

That or reverse the situation...my ex would usually drive....he'd just fly down the stairs and into the car and would turn it on and sit there and wait with this stupid look on his face like I was taking ALL day to get moving....and I wasn't!

I don't know, maybe I'm a bitch but I just think that's SO RUDE....there's "I'll meet you in the car" if you want to get out that damn badly and sit and wait in the car.....instead of flying past me and making a damn race of it to see how fast you can get in there.

Another thing that drives me nuts....I understand over time, couples get comfortable and don't hold hands everywhere anymore, but when a guy just walks several feet ahead of you or makes no attempt to take a smaller stride, that just irritates me. Sometimes I have to get these little legs a pumpin to keep up with average sized people......and even moreso with taller guys.....and they seem to walk so far ahead of me that it doesn't even look like we're together.

Of course, yes, bitchy blas threw a fit about that, too......

Hey, at least I've got one who tries now.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I hate those things, too.

The car thing? The person will end up with a far longer wait than even they anticipated. My husband did that (I guess he thought I was right behind him, he's not usually that annoying) but in all honesty, I thought the guy was in the bathroom and sat down on the sofa, keys in hand, to wait for him. I only went looking for him when it got long enoujgh to be weird. Then when I realized he was in the car, THEN I got irritated.

And sat back down on the sofa.

The fast walker will find I am no longer behind him. This ain't fucking Japan.

[blas87]

Sorry Kink, this natural blonde doesn't understand the "This isn't Japan" part.

I'm sorry if that all came off as really bratty and bitchy. It just brings up memories that make me twitch and titter.....obviously that stuff falls into common courtesy and not really chivalry....but gawd dahum......I can't believe some people think it's ok to act that way.

[BroomJockey]

I screamed at him and said "I'm not handicapped and I'm not purposely going slow. There's no reason for you to just go flying out the door and make me look like I'm holding up the show and you just sit there waiting for a car that won't turn on until I make it turn on!"

Scream at me for that, and we'd be over before you finished the sentence. I fucking hate waiting by the door with my shoes/coat on. I'd rather pull out my fingernails. And I sure as hell ain't gonna sit on the couch with my shoes and coat on. I do, however, rather enjoy waiting in/by the car. It's fun.

This ain't fucking Japan.

Err... wow. Uh...



And the woman says, and I quote, "Well, I know that down here in the south there is a lot of segregation."

<snip>

I mean, seriously? Segregation? I keep trying to think she meant to say some other word, but then I can't imagine what word she could have meant that would have been all that much better.

Pure gold. I couldn't make this stuff up, folks.

"So on Fratching today, I read this post..."

[blas87]

I understand that, BJ, and I also understand that a lot of guys THINK that we ladies take all the time in the world to do anything, but I think it's just rude to go flying out the door. If they would have said "I'll wait in the car", I might have been a little more forgiving.

It's not like I was sitting down, shoe on left foot.....oh there's some mail I forgot to check......shoe halfway on right foot.....oh I forgot to turn the heater down a bit.....shoe back on right foot....oops, not all the way on yet.........oh gee I forgot to shut the fridge!...

It was more like the Amazing Race to get out of my place and into the car....I got into my shoes and grabbed my keys and purse, and in those seconds.....he was just gone and waiting in the car. It's not like I was purposely poking or I'm even that slow. I'm not the type of person to stomp right into my shoes or run off down the stairs.

[Greenday]

This is why I like using my "I'll go get the car warm/cooled down..." approach. No one will fault you for that.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Okay. Fair enough.

Banning segregation happened half a century ago in this county and is law.

Traditional gender roles in Japan are NOT law, and are even now causing some marriages some problems. Some follow them, some don't.

Neither of these statments are opinion.

"This ain't old traditional male-dominated fucking Japan."


BLAS: I was referring to the old Japanese tradition (and other countries have/had this tradition, too) that wives walk behind their husbands in public, not beside them. It designated that the husband was the leader of his family.

For Broomjockey's benefit, I will bring up another example of irritating and outdated cultural quirks: All the women in my family are stunned to see my husband doing dishes. I don't know why they are stunned. This ain't fucking Italy. Hell, it's not even fucking New Jersey.

Happy now? :rolleyes:

[Greenday]

Hell, it's not even fucking New Jersey.

Hey, I do my own dishes...

[DesignFox]

The car thing? The person will end up with a far longer wait than even they anticipated. <snip>

The fast walker will find I am no longer behind him. This ain't fucking Japan.

I haven't had anybody do the "fly out the door to the car" thing, but it's safe to say if someone was rude enough not to mention that they'd be waiting for me outside, I'd get pretty miffed. If anybody who I'm traveling with says, "Hey, I'll just be outside waiting for you" I would have no problem.

I'm like you RK. If someone is in a massive hurry and being obnoxious about it, I do everything in super slow motion. :p

The Japan thing...Sorry if it makes me a bad person, but I LOL'd!

Hey, I do my own dishes...

What, a man? Doing DISHES?! j/k I've known plenty of guys that do their own dishes. Mostly they've been pretty lazy about it, but they do it!

This is why I like using my "I'll go get the car warm/cooled down..." approach. No one will fault you for that.

I like it when a guy does that for me. I don't like being cold!

I also like the basic courteous stuff. I mean, I guess some of it could be considered chivalrous. I like when a guy gets the door for me. I like when I'm all dressed up and the guy helps me into the car and closes the door for me (I actually get kind of irritated when I'm in a long dress and heels and he doesn't. HOWEVER, with my current SO, all I have to do is say, "Hunny, can you please get the door for me, I can't do that AND hold my dress"...and he does it!). I also like when my SO gets protective and walks to the outside or puts me on the inside seat on the train when the scary homeless guy with vomit and boogers in his beard comes wandering around looking for a handout.......

At any rate, if a man is being respectful I'm 100% happy. Not going to complain one bit. I know with my current SO that any chivalrous thing he does is not because he thinks I'm weak and helpless (he knows I'm not, he's witnessed some of my more fiery moments). But, he also acknowledges in certain situations that he's the better..deterrent...or that he can be helpful or whatever.

When I'm not all dressed up and have my arms full, I'll often get the door for him, go around and unlock his car door first, carry things, etc.

It's all about respect.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I know' that's what I'm saying. I don't even care if my husband says something like "hey, can you try to hurry please?" or "how long are you gonna be." no problem with that. I respect straightforward.

What I don't appreciate are attempts to convey wishes or to manipulate me by playing charades with me. Just spit it out, for crying out loud. If you are impatient, ask me to hurry. I'm okay with that.

As for the doing dishes thing, you'd think my husband was an alien from another planet sometimes the way they act. Sheesh. My dad does does quite a bit of housework, too, cuz he retired before my mom did. Absolutley scandalous. :rolleyes:

[Boozy]

The stories about people rushing out to the car reminds me of an ex-boyfriend of mine.

We hadn't been together long before we found ourselves at a fast food joint. I was halfway through my fries when I looked up and noticed him taking the last bite of his burger. At which point he wiped his mouth, promptly stood up, and started walking towards the door.

I thought he was going to the bathroom, until I saw him exit the restaurant.

I sat there in stunned silence for at least a minute until I realized what had just happened. He had simply finished his meal and was ready to go. He either didn't care or didn't notice that his date wasn't joining him.

A minute later he came back in and said, "Oh, I thought you had followed me. You still eating?"

That was the last date.

[Greenday]

That was the last date.

Aw, Boozy, I'm so proud of you! Good call not waiting around on his ass.

[blas87]

Thanks for clarifying that, RK. And yes, I'm a bad person too because I LOL'ed at it as well.

[AdminAssistant]

There were a few times that McGee came over when I was still getting ready (this has been a batshit insane semester, and I'm constantly scatterbrained right now). I'd apologize, offer to get him something to drink, invite him to turn on the TV, whatever. And talk to him while he waited, which was never more than 5 minutes.

Seriously, who's in that big of a hurry to get somewhere?

[Mytical]

Ok I do hold doors open for everybody, and I am always polite. Mainly because that was how I was raised. My mother would cook me over a slow fire if I wasn't a gentleman. As I was growing up, I was taught a few things.

Never ever raise your hand to a woman. Unless they are litterally trying to kill you. If you see a man raising his hand against a woman, the man should be introduced to the sidewalk very shortly after. Basically some very old fashioned values in todays world.

That being said, I want to clarify something. I absolutely love strong women, and I know that women can more then take care of themselves. I don't do the things I do because I think they are weak, but because I respect them. I will do the going around to the car door, etc..but if they say "Stop." I stop. Because that is what my parents taught me to do. When I invite anybody out, male or female, I pay. If they invite me, I don't complain if they pay. If it is a mutual thing, we both pay. I feel the person doing the inviting should pay (although I am not upset if they don't).

Yes, I like the idea of a 50/50 relationship. Built on mutual respect, trust, and friendship. I am a hopeless romantic, and I am about as 'akward' (spelling?) as a person can get. My values may be a bit outdated, but I do think the golden rules apply. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So I will keep doing the outdated things, because it is about my respect to them. At least until they tell me "You know, I don't like you doing that." then I stop. Because I respect them enough to stop. Of course that has meant that I don't get many dates (ie none in 35 years). Because I am shy, and like to treat people nice, and am seen as 'weak' because of that. Maybe when somebody actually takes the time to get to know me, that will change. I won't change what I do however (unless asked :P).

Ok enough rambling..we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[blas87]

I hold doors for people, and I'm a young lady myself. I was raised to be polite and courteous to your fellow human.

However, common courtesy isn't so common anymore. How often has someone opened the door just for themselves, just to let it shut right in front of you.....or you open a door for someone and they almost seem to huff at you?

I got really mad one day after work, I saw someone with their hands full approaching the double doors, so as I walked out, I held the door open for them. What did they do?

Went out of their way to open the OTHER door....

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I got really mad one day after work, I saw someone with their hands full approaching the double doors, so as I walked out, I held the door open for them. What did they do?

Went out of their way to open the OTHER door....

Not sure I could have resisted the temptation to say "you're welcome" after them. That's just over the top.

[Greenday]

Not sure I could have resisted the temptation to say "you're welcome" after them. That's just over the top.

My friend is like that when we are at the bars. We'll be gathered around the bar when some person decides instead of going around us, to just bump their way through us. When they don't say anything while jostling us, she'll yell, "Excuse me!" at them. Then they turn around and give us a look like "What the hell?"

[Flyndaran]

There has to a be a middle ground between old fashioned gentlemanly sexism and absurd rudeness.

[Peppergirl]

There has to a be a middle ground between old fashioned gentlemanly sexism and absurd rudeness.


Yikes. I'm actually agreening with one of your posts. :D

Kidding aside, this is the perfect way to sum it up. I would like to think that most people feel this way. There's no need for the crazy acts of the past (coat on a puddle, etc), but just common courtesy for any sex.

Common courtesy doesn't seem to be all that 'common' anymore, does it. :(

[Mytical]

No, it certainly isn't common anymore. I honestly have never seen anybody do the coat on the puddle thing. As for those super fast walkers, yeah I don't blame you they would find themselves walking alone. :D

[Boozy]

I don't think anyone in history, including Sir Walter Raleigh, has ever done the coat over the puddle thing. Why not just walk around the puddle?

If my husband threw a coat over a puddle for me, it would lose the chivalric value in that I would be the one who had to scrub the damned coat.

[Peppergirl]

I don't think anyone in history, including Sir Walter Raleigh, has ever done the coat over the puddle thing. Why not just walk around the puddle?



I wonder where that got started? The only time I have seen it is in old movies. :confused:

[Boozy]

I'm pretty sure it started with the tale about Walter Raleigh and Queen Elizabeth, but it seems like a folk story.

People of the time would say something like, "Sir Walter Raleigh is SO chivalrous!" And then people would respond, "How chivalrous is he?" "He is so chivalrous that he..." and so on. :D

[AdminAssistant]

People of the time would say something like, "Sir Walter Raleigh is SO chivalrous!" And then people would respond, "How chivalrous is he?" "He is so chivalrous that he...

knocked up one of Elizabeth's handmaidens and was sent to the Tower of London?

:D

[jackfaire]

One thing that used to trouble me was when I rode the bus to work and if an elderly psgr (male or female) would get on, and no one would get up to let him/her sit down. My mother raised me better than that. If any disabled/elderly person got on the bus, I always gave up my seat.

There was an elderly man I used to always see on the bus. If a passenger was new to the route they would give up their seat for him and berate you for not doing so.

After a few days you learned not to give up your seat for him.

Why because he did not and would not ever take your seat. He would sit down when a seat opened up because someone got off the bus but he would not let anyone give up their seat for them.

It still makes me smile because I am like that. I will hold open doors but I hate them being opened for me I dislike anytime someone shows me the same courtesies I show them. Yes I know I am weird like that.

I miss that guy



Oh and that coat over the puddle thing I did it once in junior high to impress a girl. Yeah didn't work so well.