Rap

[stormtreader]

Oooookay, lets get this thing started.

I would like to put in a vote for a particular kind of rap/ghetto music being the worst music of all time. Specifically, its the songs which seems to go something like

"Bitch, wheres my money?
Youd better get that ass over here and show me some god-damned respect before i slap you good.
All you ho's better get on the floor and get freaky, cause im the man"
etc etc.

Its so hateful towards women, they dont seem to exist except to be stupid sex objects.
If anyone was to just say stuff like this, everyone would be appalled, but it seems like if you put some kind of beat behind it and have a video of a lot of women wearing very little, suddenly its fine.

When did this kind of thing become ok?

[Rapscallion]

It became OK when the guilty white liberals said "Oh, it's their culture and we cannot say anything bad about it..." or words to that effect. I'm fairly liberal, but there's no way I would deem that acceptable.

I cannot see why anyone would see it as being acceptable. The thing that really bothers me about rap music - at least the so-called hardcore stuff - is that it's supposed to represent life on the streets. I've never seen anything like that on the streets, save for occasional glimpses on Cops etc, and it certainly doesn't look glamorous. It never offers any hope for a better life - it seems that some people are more than happy to wallow in their misery and not try to better themselves.

Rapscallion

[ArenaBoy]

What bothers me about is not only the already listed reasons above, but the fact that there are folks who ARE white acting like this. Living in a nice area you'd expect these people to live a good fruitful life but when you see them dressing up and blasting their music in the car acting like they're tough you just lose faith in humanity. At basketball games, the wigger act is prevalant that we often mock them for it. These are kids driving BMWs, Mercedes, Caddilacs, and so on and they act like that they come from the streets. I had a teacher who once said that wiggers would not last a single second in the worst parts of California.

[Rapscallion]

Well, the colour of the person's skin is irrelevant. Idiocy knows no boundaries of race or culture. The youth of any era will try and define themselves.

The sixties saw many flower-print clothing and recreational chemicals - where do you see that now? Well, save when the fashion industry runs out of ideas...

The seventies saw glam rock.
The eighties saw big hair, one-shot wonders, and synthesizers.
The nineties saw ... crap, really.

Rap music will die out, though not soon enough for me. Sure, you've discovered rhyming couplets, but can we move onto something with a more complicated and interesting rhyming scheme, please? Besides, if you're constantly talking about how good you are, remember that the men who constantly talk about sex are either getting paid as doctors or aren't getting any.

Rapscallion

[MadMike]

Not sure this one should go under "music." I say that not just because I despise it, but because there usually isn't any kind of music. Just someone talking over a drum beat. My son could talk when he was two, but you didn't see him on eMpTyV.

And if they are doing it to actual music, usually it's music that was stolen from someone else. Maybe there are some rappers who actual write their own music to rap to, in which case they have my respect. I still don't care for it, but at least they're actually putting some work into it.

I can't really say much about the violent or controversial lyrics, because some of what I listen to goes into similar territory.

[DGoddess]

I think rap music started back in the early 1980's, which was around the time I first heard of it and then wasn't sure what it was about. But then, attending a historically ethnic high school really exposed me to quite a bit I had never heard of before.

I don't personally care for a lot of it, except for maybe a novelty song recorded by Dan Ackroyd and Tom Hanks for the "Dragnet" movie in the mid 80's "City of Crime" (quite cute actually) and "Pump Up The Volume" by MAARS, but most of what I heard in high school was quite graphic. I would have been mortally embarrassed to have anyone catch me listening to some of the crap that came out back then.

But everywhere I go now, that seems to be the prevailing type of music being played. Whatever happened to the classic pop/jazz stuff that used to be played?

Compared to rap and their related genres (hip hop/whatever) I'd rather hear Mel Torme or Rosemary Clooney. Better yet, some Barry Manilow.

And while we're still on that disucssion, what is with with some of these names? LLCoolJ, Ice-T, Ice Cube (I like all of them as actors, but I'm not wild about the music part) Doctor Dre (who my middle sister listened to in high school in the mid 90's) and Jay-Z? Why can't people have normal names anymore?:confused:

[Knightmare]

I agree; rap that degrades women (or anyone for that matter) is horrible. But rap in general? Rap is here to stay. It has, and will continue, to evolve. I like some of it. But not the stuff you hear on the radio. That's mostly crap.

A good rap song can be just as beautiful and elegant as a symphony. I grew up with rap. I remember Doug E Fresh, Slick Rick, Run DMC et al in the 80's. The 90's were about NWA, Eazy E, Ice Cube, Ice T, Public Enemy... that's when rap started turning to guns, violence, cop killing for it's material. I lost interest then. I started listening to De La Soul, and other artists who's names escape me right now (I'm getting old). But they had that groove going; jazzy, lyrical, tight vocals. A pleasure to listen to.

Some of the best rappers I have EVER heard have been on the street corners. Not some large stadium or club; just guys on the street, making it up as it comes to them. Totally amazing. I could never do that. Heck, I could know all the words to a rap song, and still mess it up.

[Rapscallion]

I can't really say much about the violent or controversial lyrics, because some of what I listen to goes into similar territory.

Oh, I don't know. The difference is that the violent lyrics in heavy metal are generally rooted in the fantasy genre, from what I understand. Rap is based in the 'real' world on the streets, where things such as they 'sing' about happen. For me, that's an important difference.

Rapscallion

[stormtreader]

Oh, I don't know. The difference is that the violent lyrics in heavy metal are generally rooted in the fantasy genre, from what I understand. Rap is based in the 'real' world on the streets, where things such as they 'sing' about happen. For me, that's an important difference.

Rapscallion

Id agree with that - heavy metal seems to be generally angry, which i think is perfectly ok. If youre angry with someone, at least youre seeing them as a person. Hate-rap doesnt even seem to see women as people, just objects. Thats what i cant stand.

[AFPheonix]

While there is definitely crappy songs out there, I would like to submit that there is also a few ok ones out there, too. Queen Latifah has made a name for herself combating the very kinds of songs mentioned here. Ice T these days is making songs that are more mature.

Not that I listen to any of this stuff, but I have heard some by those artists, so not all rap is created equal.

[Luna]

I did like the 80's stuff and even a bit of the 90's. Before it turned into guns, shootouts, how many hos you have, and how much bling you own.

One of the reasons I refuse to listen to the radio anymore. It's all "c"RAP.

[Spiffy McMoron]

I personally think that rap right now is right about where rock music was in about 1989. It's become more about the show than about the music, and record executives are mintly one-hit wonders as quickly as possible to make a buck-Chamillionnaire, Akon, D4L and Jibbs. However, one day something, someone will come out of nowhere and change the face of rap/urban/hip-hop/whatever the hell it's called, just like Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains did to rock music at the start of the 90's.

I won't pretend to know who or when or where, but that's what I think.

[protege]

To me, rap all sounds the same. The same words over and over don't really do it for me. If I wanted my car to "thump" I'd stick a screwdriver into the exhaust.

I do though, enjoy some Young MC. "Bust-A-Move" and "Principal's Office" are amusing :p

[ArenaBoy]

I did like the 80's stuff and even a bit of the 90's. Before it turned into guns, shootouts, how many hos you have, and how much bling you own.

One of the reasons I refuse to listen to the radio anymore. It's all "c"RAP.

I love the 80s stuff also, at the moment I'm listening to 2 Live Crew. I appreciate the older stuff because it was more or less about having a good time and getting messages out. Give me the old stuff over the new crap anyday. What made the older stuff much better was that they didn't sample the same thing over and over and just talk to a rhythm. For a comparison listen to the message by Grandmaster Flash and then listen to Kurtis Blow's These are the Breaks. They sound completely different. As stated numerous times, it's the new stuff where it's the same bass and everyone sounds the same screaming something incomprehensible. Basically 80s rap>modern rap.

[rdp78]

I have to agreed some of these rap lyrics aren't very respectful towards women and seems like every other word is a cussed word of course, you have to listen closely because of the beats. Of course, there are the ones that talk about buying mansions, pimped out rides and bling-bling jewelry. Not there's anything wrong with that but I throught rap was suppose to talk about life on the streets and not about material things. Then again there are ones that talk about who killed whom and which gang they belonged too.

Anyway I thought I check my music collection that I finally put most on my computer and found out that I do have few rap CDs. Nothing really hard core but I also have some songs with rap in them but other type of music and I also have few rap songs that are really "Weird Al" Yankovic parodies.

Well, I grew up during the late 80's/early 90's so I'm quite familiar with some of the earlier artists and well, some of my favorites weren't mention. My personel favorite has to be DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince (hmm, what ever happen to that guy) because of the song "Parents Just Don't Understand" and that it's still true today. I also remember MC Hammer and how big of celebrity he was before he went bankrupt (I'm thinking the same fate for some of these modern rappers). There are some others like Salt-n-Peppa, Vanilla Ice and Kriss Kross that I remember too.

[ElMarko]

Oooookay, lets get this thing started.

I would like to put in a vote for a particular kind of rap/ghetto music being the worst music of all time. Specifically, its the songs which seems to go something like

When did this kind of thing become ok?

It's not muisic. Music works with melody and harmony. Shouting over a drum beat doesn't count, even if it rhymes.

[AFPheonix]

So spoken word jazz is right out, too? :p

[Rapscallion]

even if it rhymes.

It only gets to rhyming couplets. That's no skill - that's kindergarten stuff.

Rapscallion

[MadMike]

It's not muisic. Music works with melody and harmony. Shouting over a drum beat doesn't count, even if it rhymes.

Thank you. I've been saying the same thing myself for years. Decades, even.

[Boozy]

There is a lot of really great rap and hip-hop out there. I suspect that the popular stuff that most people are familiar with is the stuff that gets played on MTV...and the stuff that gets played on MTV involves a lot of semi-clothed women and offensive lyrics.

I listen to all kinds of music, and the rap I listen to is just flat-out poetry, with innovative rhythm and interesting bass lines. Rap and hip-hop grew out of R&B, which grew out of blues. And American blues is easily the most influential form of music of the 20th century.

Music can't exist in a vacuum. People will experiment, and a lot of garbage will be composed and performed, and a lot of that will be solely made for commercial purposes. But that doesn't mean there aren't some gifted rap artists out there.

[Dreamstalker]

Some of the best rappers I have EVER heard have been on the street corners. Not some large stadium or club; just guys on the street, making it up as it comes to them. Totally amazing.
Yup. There are a few street performers around here (homeless and not) that can just come up with stuff on the fly (and it will actually have a melody, which is nice). Those guys I'll give at least a little money to. A friend calls it "happy rap" :D

[linguist]

Thank you. I've been saying the same thing myself for years. Decades, even.

but by that argument, the same could be said for metal. if shouting over a drumbeat is not music, how is that any different from screaming over a distorted guitar?

[Dragonlover]

I am a metalhead. However, I cannot stand it when you can't tell what the vocalist is singing because they're growling/shouting or whatever. This is why I listen to power/classic rock and metal, you'll never hear Brucey growling.

As for the rap thing... meh, really not my cup of tea, but I will agree that it's downgraded in recent years compared to the earlier stuff. About the only rapper that I think people will still listen to in 10 years is Eminem, because he has something to say beyond 'pimps, bitches and ho's'.

Dragonlover

[powerboy]

I used to listen to the old school rap. I would also listen to Country and Rock & oldies and Jazz. I hate the newer Rap that is out there. I want to be able to drive around without hearing crap bumping from car stereos.

[Gawdzillers]

Rap began as a way for the black community to have a voice - like punk rock.
Soon it just became offensive for the sake of being offensive - like punk rock.
Sometimes, it's offensive to draw attention, and then they actually have a message - like punk rock.

[tropicsgoddess]

I listen to rap, but not as much as I used to. There's little to no substance in the songs these days.

[AFPheonix]

I did hear this the other day, it was pretty funny. Actually, not a bad parody, usually these suck:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=97759aa27a0c99bff671

[CancelMyService]

Man, I don't mean to be stirring the pot but some of you need to step back and realize how mind numbingly racist some of you sounded in this thread. From what I've gleaned by reading all 3 pages is that this rap fad is a just a bunch of clicks and whistles that requires no musical talent, and was designed by black folks as a way to annoy people by making cars vibrate. Unless of course it's Eminem, then that's ok (btw, there's probably no one in rap who has more songs that are anti-woman than him and thats from someone who generally enjoys his music).

Just sayin, dismissing rap as a musical genre due to what you hear on MTV is like dismissing rock due to what's being put out by the latest American Idol reject. There's good rap to be heard out there, but you won't find it on the local Top 40 station or on rotation on MTV/BET/etc. One of my all time pet peeves is people who get all passive aggresive about rap and cherry pick the worst possible examples to back their cases up. I could start a thread saying metal sucks and use 90s era Metallica as proof, but that would hardly be a fair example.

Some of the most amazing things I've heard/seen musically was watching guys (black and white) have rap contests in my graphic arts class in high school. You can't tell me that someone who can freestyle for 5-10 minutes solid doesn't have some talent. Just because it's not the music you relate to or grew up with doesn't make it any less valid.

[Boozy]

Well said, CancelMyService.

[ArenaBoy]

Man, I don't mean to be stirring the pot but some of you need to step back and realize how mind numbingly racist some of you sounded in this thread.

Racist/racism: noun. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief

Odd, I read through the thread three times and the only mention of blacks I see was in Gawdziller's post and it wasn't even racist. The only thing I complained about was how a group of people who live in my county (3rd or 4th richest in the US) act like they're from the street which they're not due to their more opulent display of wealth. But just saying rap is bad equals to one being racist is short sighted and stupid. Also, here's a refresher on what true racism (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7225523.stm) is. Again, just because saying rap is crap means that it makes them a racist is stupid and a pathetic excuse.



From what I've gleaned by reading all 3 pages is that this rap fad is a just a bunch of clicks and whistles that requires no musical talent.

And it is. All it is rhyming couplets. I can write rhyming couplets but you don't see me with a record deal. Writing a rhyming couplet and playing an instrument and being able to write songs with it is a huge difference. HUGE. That's all rap is. Just rhyming couplets.

and was designed by black folks as a way to annoy people by making cars vibrate.

Point out where someone, ANYONE was saying it. Please, point it out.

[linguist]

And it is. All it is rhyming couplets. I can write rhyming couplets but you don't see me with a record deal. Writing a rhyming couplet and playing an instrument and being able to write songs with it is a huge difference. HUGE. That's all rap is. Just rhyming couplets.


hmmm...where to even begin with this ridiculous statement?

let's just start with your assertion that rap is nothing but rhyming couplets. even if that were the case (which is not, and i'll get to that a bit further on), you say that as if it were a bad thing. some of the earliest "rock stars" of the western world were the anglo-saxon scopen, the bards who were taxed with the job of composing songs and poems for their lords. these songs and poems were...gasp!...rhyming couplets recited to music. and surviving anglo-saxon poetry remains some of the most beautiful and haunting poetry ever composed. so one could look at rap as a continuation of long-standing tradition.

as for your assertion that you could write rhyming couplets yourself, maybe. but could you do so in an intelligent way and put together a compelling story, then deliver said story with passion and conviction? that's why rappers have record deals. their poetry speaks to someone.

about those rhyming couplets, though...i listen to a lot of rap music, because i've kept my mind open enough not to judge based on superficiality, and i've actually bothered seeking out more than what's on the radio. and i have to tell you, very little of it is in rhyming couplets. if there's any rhyme scheme, it's abcb, which is the same rhyme scheme often used by rock, blues, and pop singers.

then you go on to totally discount the talent of producers. producing those music beds that artists rap over takes a lot of talent, far more than many mainstream rock bands banging out three chords on a guitar. which brings me around to my next point: rap groups and instrumentation. i gather from your misguided statement that you're under the bullshit assumption that no rappers play instruments. you should check out the roots. or n.e.r.d. or overlord. boombox. dirty wormz. the beastie boys. hell, rage against the machine is at its heart a rap group, with a guitarist, bassist, and drummer taking on the role of producer and dj. the list goes on.

you're a soccer fan, correct? let me make an analogy. saying rap requires no more talent than it takes to write rhyming couplets is like saying playing soccer requires no more talent than to be able to run up and down a field while kicking a ball. i can do that. could i be a professional soccer player?

an open mind makes the world a much brighter place.

[CancelMyService]

OK, so my post was *slightly* harsher than I intended, but my point still stands. I'd be willing to grant the benefit of the doubt to someone who was against any music that promoted violence against women (hey, Johnny Cash did a song about shooting a woman with his sub-mo-chine) rather than just certain kinds. Don't like songs glorifying crime? Better not be a fan of the song Copperhead Road which is about guys who ran moonshine.

Basically, if you don't like a certain style, just say so. Don't try to degrade it by saying its some lesser or primitive form that just anyone can do.

[ArenaBoy]

h
let's just start with your assertion that rap is nothing but rhyming couplets. even if that were the case (which is not, and i'll get to that a bit further on), you say that as if it were a bad thing.

I didn't say that it was a bad thing. All I said was that rap is nothing more than couplets. Read the post.

some of the earliest "rock stars" of the western world were the anglo-saxon scopen, the bards who were taxed with the job of composing songs and poems for their lords. these songs and poems were...gasp!...rhyming couplets recited to music. and surviving anglo-saxon poetry remains some of the most beautiful and haunting poetry ever composed. so one could look at rap as a continuation of long-standing tradition.

Wow, you have pointed something common to me. Guess what? There was actual music to back up the couplet complete with lutes and guitars. And rap as a long standing tradition? Come on.

as for your assertion that you could write rhyming couplets yourself, maybe. but could you do so in an intelligent way and put together a compelling story, then deliver said story with passion and conviction? that's why rappers have record deals. their poetry speaks to someone.

Oh please
Writing comes to me with ease
As you can see
Poetry has always been easy for me.
I can do this all day
for me this is just simple play.

then you go on to totally discount the talent of producers.

Producers are usually brought in to clean up tracks and give them that polished sound that you usually hear.

producing those music beds that artists rap over takes a lot of talent, far more than many mainstream rock bands banging out three chords on a guitar.

Surrrreee. :rolleyes: I did music producing for a while and you want to know what was more frustrating? Recording a band track that had guitars, vocals, bass, and drums. Why you ask? Because someone might screw up a verse on guitar, or the drummer missed a beat, or the singer didn't reach a high enough pitch. All it takes for what you're claiming is talent is finding the right arrangement whereas with say a guitar you're more focused on what's going on around you. When the bass player plays this riff I have to play this riff and etcetera. Then you have fret placement on the guitar to worry about and that one finger on the wrong string can screw up a song. A lot harder than doing what a "producer" does for rap.

which brings me around to my next point: rap groups and instrumentation. i gather from your misguided statement that you're under the bullshit assumption that no rappers play instruments. you should check out the roots. or n.e.r.d. or overlord. boombox. dirty wormz. the beastie boys. hell, rage against the machine is at its heart a rap group, with a guitarist, bassist, and drummer taking on the role of producer and dj. the list goes on.

RATM is more or less metal, Beastie Boys started out as a punk group, Roots takes their origins from jazz mostly, and I haven't listened to the other bands. Nice try though.

you're a soccer fan, correct? let me make an analogy. saying rap requires no more talent than it takes to write rhyming couplets is like saying playing soccer requires no more talent than to be able to run up and down a field while kicking a ball. i can do that. could i be a professional soccer player?

Heard that claim so much that it doesn't even faze me. NEXT!

an open mind makes the world a much brighter place.

Says the guy who thinks producing takes more talent than playing the guitar or any instrument for that matter. :rolleyes:

[CancelMyService]

OK, so I guess any music that features rap but proves your opinions of rap wrong is now suddenly not rap.

The Beasties aren't rap? RATM isn't rap? Why pray tell would you come to that conclusion? Because their "couplets" are backed by guitars and drums instead of samples and beats? Hell, most Beasties songs have more production than those rap songs you hate so much.

Your general attitude and dismissiveness seems to suggest that perhaps a nerve was struck. Your view of rap as a simplistic form of music is easily disproven with the most minmal of effort and your unwillingness to accept that does not change anything.



***DISCLAIMER***
In the interest of world peace, I want to make it clear I wasn't calling out anyone in particular in my previous post. I wanted to call attention to the general passive aggressive racial overtones that are very obvious anytime people start blindly bashing rap music or anything that is seen as sterotypically "urban" (ie: "black").

[ArenaBoy]

Your general attitude and dismissiveness seems to suggest that perhaps a nerve was struck.

In case you haven't noticed, my humor is reactionary.


The Beasties aren't rap? RATM isn't rap? Why pray tell would you come to that conclusion? Because their "couplets" are backed by guitars and drums instead of samples and beats?

Pretty much yes. a type of popular music in which words are recited rapidly and rhythmically over a prerecorded, typically electronic instrumental backing.

Pretty much the standard definition there. Argue it all you want.

Your view of rap as a simplistic form of music is easily disproven with the most minmal of effort and your unwillingness to accept that does not change anything.

BWAHAHA!

I consider music to be storytelling, melody and rhythm. Most rap, keyword here is MOST consists of rhythm and storytelling and there is usually a lack of instruments. And most of it nowadays sounds the same.

I wanted to call attention to the general passive aggressive racial overtones that are very obvious anytime people start blindly bashing rap music or anything that is seen as sterotypically "urban" (ie: "black").

Seriously, was there anything racial said? Was there anything along the lines of saying "This genre sucks because a minority is known for playing this genre"? If you're just trying to make people feel bad by saying that then that's hilariously stupid and pathetic. As far as I know nothing racist was said so far but come on man be serious.

[Boozy]

Anyone who makes a blanket statement that says, "All [anything] sucks, without exception" is going to be proven wrong.

The world is not so black and white.

[protege]

Point out where someone, ANYONE was saying it. Please, point it out.

I'd like to see that too. What *I* said was,
"To me, rap all sounds the same. The same words over and over don't really do it for me. If I wanted my car to "thump" I'd stick a screwdriver into the exhaust." How, exactly, is that racist? Around here, it doesn't matter what color the drivers are--about 99.9999% percent of them have their bass cranked up so much, you can hear them coming for about 52 blocks. *That* is what I was referring to.

[MadMike]

Seriously, was there anything racial said? Was there anything along the lines of saying "This genre sucks because a minority is known for playing this genre"?

Ah yes, I've heard that same argument before. "You don't like rap because you're a racist." I can't speak for everyone else, but I don't care if the person doing it is white, black, or purple with green stripes. It still sucks.

[the_std]

I'm wondering why rap has to be confined to words spoken over a drum/sample beat. Why is it not allowed to have guitars and drums and other musical paraphernalia in it? Why restrict the genre? Saying that rap is all spoken words over a beat is like saying that rock is all electric guitars and screaming. The term "rock" encompasses many, many sub-groupings, as I'm sure you all know. Indy, alt, metal, soft, etcetera. The same goes for rap. It just so happens that "rap" gets branded by the most exposed bits, as has been repeated in this topic many times. 50 Cent and Akon don't have a monopoly over rap these days. That's just all you hear. There is beautiful, melodious, musical rap out there. Tons of it. Just because you don't know about it does not mean it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying you have to go actively searching for the more under-exposed artists who differ from the "bling bling" style. You don't have to listen to it if you don't want to. But there is a wealth of credible, musical, palatable rap out there that is being created these days. Don't dismiss the whole genre as it exists now because of a few people.

[lordlundar]

I don't think I could put any better myself than this. (http://www.dribbleglass.com/twistedbillboards/magnet2.jpg):p

[Greenday]

Since when has Rage become rap? You gotta be kidding me. Rage is funk or rock, whichever you prefer to call it.

In my opinion, if you can sing, congratulations, give yourself a pat on the back.

If you can sing and play an instrument, you just took took the hardness of singing alone and multiplied it by a hell of a lot.

Despite not liking rap, I'll still call it music, but I still think it's a load of crap.

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

I don't like rap because...I don't like rap. It's not a style of music that appeals to me.

[linguist]

Since when has Rage become rap? You gotta be kidding me. Rage is funk or rock, whichever you prefer to call it.


zach de la rocha has always identified himself as a rapper, and shortly after the release of their first album tom morello did an interview (can't remember which magazine, but "guitar world" is sticking out for some reason) on the difficulties of playing dj to a rap group using a guitar in place of turntables.

[FashionLad]

It's music. Wow.

I listen to rap, but I also listen to post-punk, rock, metal, garage rock, British Underground... stuff like that. You'll never see me listening to country unless it's Dustin Kensrue.

What's wrong if I want to listen to rap music and I'm white? It's not a matter of race, it's just what I like.

Maybe people living the ghetto life shouldn't listen to Beethoven? Maybe I shouldn't be listening to Led Zepplin because I'm young. Maybe I shouldn't listen to Justin Timberlake because I'm not a 14 year old girl. Anyone can like any sort of music and no one should see a problem with it.

Music is a form of expression and art. Books can be about incest and rape, but those are alright by our culture. It's music. Just music. I have yet to shoot anyone or beat up my girlfriend. Guess what, I'll listen to this music and never once shoot someone or beat up my girlfriend. But, I can listen to the music that says other people do it.

There's a scientific reason why people like the music they do. Certain music actually "tickles" a part of the brain and allows the person to respond favorably to it.

If you don't like a particular style, that's fine. But to call someone out because they're white, affluent and well off because they're listening to rap, that's just plain wrong.

[DarthRetard]

FashionLad, my problem with most mainstream rap--and before you flame me, even I have some sugarhill gang on my ipod--is that it creates a certain image and culture that gets promoted through the airwaves and in anyway necessary. Gang culture, as it's typically called in the media, promotes violence, towards anyone necessary who gets in your grill, promotes wasteful spending of 6000 dollar rims on a 2000 dollar car, promotes violence and abuse towards women, and promotes general, overall ignorance, if you ask me.

I grew up and still live in a predominantly black area. I'm surrounded by gang culture. I'm not spewing something from a news article, I'm talking about what I see. Tupac and Notorious B.I.G. are now symbols because they were killed by gang violence. I've seen local videos promoting gang violence.

These guys aren't listening to Anti-Flag, The Sex Pistols, Rage Against The Machine, anything like that. They're listening to people like 50 Cent who brag about being shot.

And you know who use these people as role models? Young children of any race or creed growing up anywhere, who think that the way to make your way in the world is to gun down those in your way. It's "pimp" to mistreat women, it's "baller" to be wasteful with money, and it's "gangsta" to shoot cops and people who disagree with you.

No, of course there's nothing wrong with it. I wish I could be as ignorant of the obvious effects it's having on my generation.

[FashionLad]

I wish I could be as ignorant of the obvious effects it's having on my generation.

What's that supposed to mean?

I don't think it's music causing all of that. Maybe it's the lack of education or the lack of a parental figure in the family. Unless you've done appropriate studies, don't say it's rap causing all of this, because you don't know. And it's not just glorifying all of this...

I'll hold my child's head underwater.
If it's a boy, I was joking
if it's a daughter, I'll say I did what I did
because I had to...
And if you find my kid later
tell her I laughed too.

We just might work out fine
because I love you enough
to let you give the pain that I want
...And when you do
I just might fuck you
enough to love you.

Not rap, obviously.

The light looks good against
The bruises on your cheek
Another medal that you have to hold this week

Not rap, why am I not acting out? Both my parents were in my life. I live pretty well off. I listen to rap and I listen to songs with the lyrics that I just showed you. Maybe because it's not the music??

Look at the people that are mainly in gangs. A lot of them come from broken homes. Oh jeez, another variable. It's a taste in music. What do serial killers listen to?

[DarthRetard]

I'm just telling you what I SEE FashionLad. You said it yourself, you live pretty well off. I grew up in a rough neighborhood, to the point where I was allowed to carry a switchblade just to keep myself safe on the two mile walk to school. I was 10.

You see the image. You see it's popular. You've heard, I'm sure about the ris ein gang violence in some urban areas. I'm not saying rap is to blame, but it sure as hell isn't helping and it isn't being stopped. It IS exacerbating the problem, and violent content is being misconstrued as acting out and/or expression of discontent.

[FashionLad]

You see the image. You see it's popular. You've heard, I'm sure about the ris ein gang violence in some urban areas. I'm not saying rap is to blame, but it sure as hell isn't helping and it isn't being stopped. It IS exacerbating the problem, and violent content is being misconstrued as acting out and/or expression of discontent.

For that statement to be true, you'd have to take the rap out of a certain area and hope that gang activity and violence did not rise. And for that, I think you wouldn't have a favorable outcome for your arguement. That's why I say what you're saying is wrong.

[AFPheonix]

While I'm sure the music isn't the problem, it is a symptom of the attitudes that arise from living and being around that lifestyle.
Correlation does not equal causation.

[DarthRetard]

I never said music caused the problem, but it does fertilize the attitude behind the problem.

[FashionLad]

I never said music caused the problem, but it does fertilize the attitude behind the problem.


No, but I was trying to point out where you made it sound like there was a direct correlation, and that's what my point is. You can't prove there is a direct correlation until you start controlling many different factors and are able to actually isolate the problem.

That'd be like trying to saying that kids that listen to Marylin Manson are more likely to commit suicide or are being told to commit suicide. Listening to Marylin Manson is usually a symptom of depression, not the cause. (Not in all cases, I know this) So taking away Marylin Manson would be like treating the symptom instead of treating the cause, if that makes sense.

[protege]

No, but I was trying to point out where you made it sound like there was a direct correlation, and that's what my point is. You can't prove there is a direct correlation until you start controlling many different factors and are able to actually isolate the problem.

Exactly. Many of the problems of the ghetto have been going on *long* before rapping. Take some of the more "interesting" areas of Pittsburgh. Many of them have had high crime rates for decades. Many of the buildings are falling apart, there's garbage in the streets, vacant lots abound, bums on the street corners, etc. I really doubt that rap caused all of that. As much as I despise rap, it gets blamed for all of it. Just like rock and roll was getting blamed for problems in the 1950s and '60s.

[lordlundar]

That'd be like trying to saying that kids that listen to Marylin Manson are more likely to commit suicide or are being told to commit suicide.

I don't know, If I listened to Manson, I would probably commit suicide. Or maybe that's if I caught myself listening to Manson...:p

[FashionLad]

I don't know, If I listened to Manson, I would probably commit suicide. Or maybe that's if I caught myself listening to Manson...:p


Haha! I actually listen to Marylin Manson, usually when I'm feeling down. 98% of the time, my mood can be realized by the music I'm listening to.

[Mistress Of Foxes]

but by that argument, the same could be said for metal. if shouting over a drumbeat is not music, how is that any different from screaming over a distorted guitar?

This is exactly why I hate the metal bands where the lead "singer" only growls. I hate it when I can't tell what the lyrics/text/whatever are. I prefer the more melodic bands, like Blind Guardian, Rhapsody, Sonata Arctica and Demons and Wizards.

The music is always a large part of why I like a song, but if I can't understand what's being said/sung at all, I'll easily start hating it, or at least dismissing it.

That said, I think I stopped listening for new music sometime around the mid 90's. I prefer listening to the older stuff, especcially if the music industry has turned into what it seems like it has turned into, gathered from all the crap my peers listen to. It's usually just crappy remixes of old hits, usually techno remixes, rap, hip hop, and really crappy pop made by "artists" that are made popular only because of their looks and sex appeal, instead of having actual talent.

I know I'm sounding like a cranky old asshole (git off ma lawn! :p), but people are always saying that this and that are the ruins of the music industry, when really, it's more likely that they care more about getting lots of "artists" out there with as many tracks as possible in as short time as possible, no matter how bad it is. They probably spend more money on trying to make people famous and popular then they lose on anything else.

[Mistress Of Foxes]

I'd like to point out something else I've noticed after yet another day of being put through my classmates' taste in what they call "music", part of which is rap.

Most of the rap, hip hop and stuff like that can't really be defined as music, in that it only has lyrics and a beat. To define something as music, there needs to be a melody. Even the slightest hint of a melody is enough to make a track into music, but as long as there's only the bass, it's not music. It's a beat and nothing more.

Poetry rhymes, too, and has a rhythm, but that doesn't make it music, and a lot of people, sadly, doesn't realize that words and some kind of noise doesn't make it music, either. There are several different genres, I guess you could call it, when it comes to "artistic noise", as my Music teacher likes to call it.

I repect people that are able to throw out a beat and a rap on the spot, but I won't say it's music. It's missing something to be that.

I'm not saying that all rap is crap, but like with many other types of music, it's become a trend that you need to dig into the bands and artists that are less known to actually get to the good stuff.

[DarthRetard]

Anyone on here a musc major in school?(Hint: I took AP Music Theory and Composition in high school <3) Just curious. Here's the American Heritage definition for Music:

mu·sic Audio Help (myōō'zĭk) Pronunciation Key
n.
The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.
A musical composition.
The written or printed score for such a composition.
Such scores considered as a group: We keep our music in a stack near the piano.
A musical accompaniment.
A particular category or kind of music.
An aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds: the music of the wind in the pines.

Now, here's the definition of melody, for those who are sketchy on the specifics:


mel·o·dy Audio Help (měl'ə-dē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. mel·o·dies

A pleasing succession or arrangement of sounds.
Musical quality: the melody of verse.
Music
A rhythmically organized sequence of single tones so related to one another as to make up a particular phrase or idea.
Structure with respect to the arrangement of single notes in succession.
The leading part or the air in a composition with accompaniment.
A poem suitable for setting to music or singing.


Rap is broken down into three parts, essentially, IMHO:

1. Vocals
2. Bass
3. Looping or repeating melodic phrase

Let's use Eminem as an example, say......The Real Slim Shady:

Opens with a synthesized rhythm/melody, which plays throughout most of the song, then UNDERNEATH that, you hear the "beat" or bass.

To me, essentially, even though some of it may not be pleasing to MY ear, it still is classified and qualifies the definition of music, like it or not.

[Mistress Of Foxes]

I am currently majoring in Music, although I'm still in my first year, so I can easily be mistaken.

But much of the rap I've heard my peers hear doesn't have that hint of a melody that I'm sure some or most of the other tracks do. It's always just the same beat and bass rhythm.

But even so, as I said before, it's not all bad. People just tend to think of the worst examples if they dislike rap and have to explain why.

Still, I'd have to say that I'm not a huge fan of the lyrics talking about violence, no matter what genre of music it is. On the other hand, if the violence is so exaccerated (sp?) it's completely unrealistic, I like it because I can get a laugh from it. But it's a very fine line between those two, I'm aware of that, so saying that I'm against all violence in music would just be me being a big fat hypocrite.

[Boozy]

Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.

I usually bail at the point in a debate where someone pulls out a dictionary, but in this case I think it may have been necessary.

Music is supposed to be fun and relaxing. Darth put it correctly - if its rhythmic and sounds pleasing to someone's ear, I think we can consider it music.

[DarthRetard]

That's the thing. It's all preferential.

[Seshat]

Try telling professional symphonic percussionists, or symphonic players of the bass instruments (double bass, tuba, baritone saxophone, etc) that their 'noise' isn't 'music' unless the melody or harmony instruments are playing as well. And be prepared to have drumsticks in uncomfortable places.

[DarthRetard]

Well, technically speaking, if you pulled out just let's say, a french horn piece out of Gustav Holst's Planet's Suite, and you played JUST the french horn part from Mars, Bringer of War, you wouldn't have anything but a march beat, to be honest. Do the same with a tuba part from any of Sousa's identical sounding marches, and you have the exact same thing.

The thing you'll notice however, is even a rhythmic beat CAN be musical, and it will still make you want to march/dance/raindance/oogaboogabooga/twist/whatever.

Take Symphonic Dance No. 3, on which In high school I volunteered to cover the bass drum part. It was all triplets, to be honest, I memorized it in a day. Was it musical? No, it was rhythmic. However, in the case of rap, you may think this applies when it only has a beat and the vocals. I would argue that the vocals, if in a rhythmic pattern, can be applied as the melodic line, over the bass beat, which provides tempo, mood and style.

[Seshat]

True enough. Or for a more modern example, listen to the theme song for "Hogan's Heroes". There are a lot of bits of that where an instrument plays only a few notes for a second or so.

I played that in school band. My sheet music for that looked awful: four notes here, two notes there, five notes in another place, all apparently totally random. Not music, individually. But together with the rest of the band, it was the "Hogan's Heroes" theme song.

[Gawdzillers]

I just want to point something out here:
I believe "rap" is better used as a definition for the vocal style, not the musical genre itself (which should be referred to as "hip-hop").

Zack of Rage Against The Machine uses rapping, but RatM certainly isn't a hip-hop band.
See?

[DarthRetard]

I can't say that I would exactly disagree with that distinction, except that there are some miniscule differences between rap and hip/hop. For one, rapping still has a beat behind it, and textbook or mainstream rap has a very simplistic rhythmic nature with minimal focus on timbre, mood and melody, with the melody simply being the vocal nature of the song.

I still count RatM as the exception to the rule to be 100 % honest with you.