Selective thanks

[Rapscallion]

People like to thank higher powers/their delusions - take your pick of definition, since that's what this board is all about. I'll admit that this one was sparked by a comment on CS, but I've noticed that there is quite a trend to look for things happening and claiming it was the work of the supernatural.

Things that really get me are the sort where a soldier will be saved by the bible in his inside coat pocket that takes the bullet that would have otherwise killed him. Of course, this was god's will, right?

A plane crashes and there's one survivor. The media or commentators say that god was looking out for them. What about the rest of the crew? Did that person's god just think "Sod them"?

Twenty thousand soldiers died per day on the Somme. They must have pissed off their gods something rotten, yeah?

All part of the divine plan? Nah - sheer blind fortune and misfortune at work.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

Not quite something so horrible, but:

A football players scores a touchdown or a baseball player hits a home run and immediately thanks God because it was God who let them hit that home run or score a touchdown. But someone gets sacked, or someone strikes out, there's no way that was God's choice, right?

[AFPheonix]

Oh, and if someone like Kathy Griffin dare say that her achievement is in fact NOT due to supernatural assistance, the comment gets censored.

[Pedersen]

Slightly dissenting viewpoint, but not entirely. Sometimes, I get the feeling that there is some sort of higher power which prods our lives slightly. For instance, me and my wife? We should not be together, by all rights.

The number of coincidences it took for us to meet, separate, and then get back together over 5 years later is simply staggering to me. I don't think it's what I would call God, but I do think some higher power had a hand in it, somehow. It certainly feels that way.

It's not a daily, or even yearly, thing, to be sure. But, sometimes, it does feel like something took a hand in events that played out.

[Seshat]

But, sometimes, it does feel like something took a hand in events that played out.

But do you blame that same something when things go wrong that also took a number of coincidences to go wrong?

[Rapscallion]

How about all the people who separate and - astoundingly enough - don't get back together again?

Rapscallion

[Pedersen]

But do you blame that same something when things go wrong that also took a number of coincidences to go wrong?

I'll admit that I've never given it much thought, but to my mind it seems like I do. There are days when I swear that I've pissed off something, and it's out to get me. Call it karma, call it god, call it fate, I don't care. I do feel like there's something, I just have no idea what that something is.

I hate being so vague about it, but it comes from one simple thing: I believe there is something out there, and I have no idea what that something is. And yes, I do believe that that something can influence us in both positive and negative ways.

I just don't believe it's what many Judeo-Christian types would call God.

[Dreamstalker]

a soldier will be saved by the bible in his inside coat pocket that takes the bullet that would have otherwise killed him.

The Mythbusters tested something similar (paperback book stopping a bullet). According to the episode guide:
A hardcover book of at least 400 pages can potentially stop a .22 rifle shot, but anything stronger would shoot completely through.
And that's your Mythbusters Moment for the week ^_^

I believe there is something out there, and I have no idea what that something is. And yes, I do believe that that something can influence us in both positive and negative ways.

I also think there's something out there, but I don't believe it controls all. Influence, possibly,. Outright control, no.

[Rapscallion]

The Mythbusters tested something similar (paperback book stopping a bullet). According to the episode guide:

And that's your Mythbusters Moment for the week ^_^


That's a modern bullet, I would assume - how about one from a WW1 rifle?

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

That's a modern bullet, I would assume - how about one from a WW1 rifle?

Those things couldn't cut butter half the time.

[rahmota]

Originally Posted by Rapscallion
That's a modern bullet, I would assume - how about one from a WW1 rifle?

Those things couldn't cut butter half the time.

I dont know about that. I've seen a civil war era minie ball cut a melon in half before. A .303 enfield can be quite effective. And yeah most things larger than .22lr or short is goign to punch through a typical romance novel and some calibers will punch throuh quite a bit more.

Me and a friend took a .45-70 krag (high powered elk rifle) and shot a stack of 25cincinnati white pages we had duct taped together from about a hundred yards away. The round penetrated all of them the 1/2 inch plywood we had stacked them in front of and buried itself in the dirt berm behind the whole shebang. the .45-70 round was developed back in the late 1870s and was used in the spanish american war and never really left the military until after WW1.

To use a british round The .303 as used by the enfield it had the follwoign stats:174 gr
2496 ft/s (~761 m/s) Muzzle velocity
2408 ft·lbf (~3275 J of Impact Force.

I think that would cut a bit more than hot butter........

And i think the term you are looking for Pederson is called the Force......

But I'll agree with you more closely pederson in that the universe does seem to have some sort of power if you will. But that it is not aware or if so about as aware of our lives and petty concerns as a dog is aware of the fleas it has.

[Greenday]

If I didn't completely botch my math, that's about 220,000 kJ of kinetic energy. That is a lot.

[Misanthropical]

I always wondered about giving thanks to God too. I can't believe God really cares about football. I mean shouldn't God be more worried about world hunger than who wins a football game?

If someone is the only person left alive after a horrible event, why is that person the only one God was willing to save? What makes that person so much more deserving than the others?

I try not to think about it.

[powerboy]

When i had my accident with my pick-up. By all rights I should be dead. It rolled 3 times. I banged my head each time. Yes I had my seatbelt on. All I got from it was a little tiny bruise, that was about 1/4 inch long. I was fine otherwise. I know that it was God that saved me & and for that I honestly thanked him for that.

[CancelMyService]

Not to discount your faith, but the construction of the truck probably had a little to do with it too.

Just today, one of my co-workers told us the news that her husband was officially declared in remission from the cancer that he's been battling for a while. She gave all the credit to the prayers that have been said, and while it certainly wasn't the time to mention it, I could only think of my father's cancer that returned after prayer allegedly sent him into remission too. I mean, I'm certainly happy that the man's getting some good news, but to think it's all because of people talking to themselves and not the hard work of doctors and modern medicine just makes me shake my head a little. It's like setting yourself up for a huge letdown.

[powerboy]

Not to discount your faith, but the construction of the truck probably had a little to do with it too.



I do believe in God. I believe that he will take care of anyone that believes in him. With that said, I feel because of my faith in Him; that is why I am still alive. I thank God everyday for that.

*side note* Fords are built tough

[rahmota]

powerboy: Please forgive me if i come off sounding insensitive or insulting. I am just curious as to what you are saying here.

Arre you saying that if you where in the same wreck but prayed and believed in Allah, The Goddess, Nothing (An Aethiest) or studied hindu mysticism you would not have fared so well in the crash and that the design and structure of the vehicle combined with the way the crash occured would have had nothign to do with your condition?

That you are alive only because you believe in the christian god?

Personally I would give full credit to the designers of the truck who had taken the time to study the years and years of accident reports, the compilation of data gleaned from destructive testing of their designs and prototypes, and by using scientific methods and breakthroughs in force management and materials design build a vehicle that will protect its occupants from harm.

[Seshat]

Rahmota, I'm taking bets that from at least some people, the answer would be a paraphrase of 'The Lord helps those that help themselves'.

[rahmota]

Seshat: yeah thats one statement I've gotten quite a bit. I was just curious if powerboy had any other viewpoint or if that was it.

Although would the way the truck was built be evidence of "intelligent design":D

[powerboy]

Rahmota. Are you trying to say that I should not believe in GOD, because it was the Ford Company that makes great vehicles?

To me, it is because of the Christian GOD; that I am alive. Since he is the only GOD that I pray too.

The Dr's & Police all said that I should not be alive, because of how totaled my truck was. So yes, I am going to thank my GOD for me being alive.



*I am not putting down anyone else's GOD or religion*


BTW, it does sound to me, as if you are insulting my beliefs. I have my own different reasons, as to believe in GOD. And not you nor anyone else, can change that.

[rahmota]

Powerboy: First off let me say my intent was not to be insulting. My stated intent was what I said it was. I was curious to know your POV in regards to if someone who had been in the exact same circumstances but followed a different faith, deity or belief system would have survived. Sorry if it sounded insulting but if anythign negative or questioning or you cannot take any joking around about christianity and think it is insulting then maybe the problem is not with the jokes or the questions but with the subject of the jokes or questions. Even the gods have a sense of humor.

I did not say you where putting down anyone else's relgion or beliefs. Your comments did not mention any other beliefs so I asked a simple question. Questions are the way we gain understanding and knowledge of the world around us. Everythign should be questioned at one point or another.

I ask because I have run across way way too many christians, even good ones who would otherwise not be intolerant, who would say that anyone who didnt follow the christian deity would not have survived any situations like that. Its a flaw of the christian faith IMO.

"Are you trying to say that I should not believe in GOD, because it was the Ford Company that makes great vehicles?"
Well for day to day thigns probably not a good idea, but in that wreck I would attribute more to ford than god as for your survival. I see too many people discounting the hard work and effort by entirely human engineers in situations like this. Forgive me for not seeing the "miracle" involved here. I'm sure the wreck was spectacular, I'm sure a lot of people probably didn't think you should have been alive.There are a lot of variables involved in a wreck that cannot be totally predicted.However for every miraculous survival story there are just as many stories where people should have survived but apparently god didnt care enough about them or want them to survive enough and the person died. There are times where people would attribute the supernatural to their survival when a mundane explanation would suffice.

[powerboy]

I can take any joking about any religion, so that is not a problem. I am sure if I was prayed to Buddha, that I would still be alive also. But like I said, I only pray to the Christian God. I do believe that there are things that humans can't do, that God does.

If you were not insulting, then my bad. But to me and at the time I wrote that, it did come across as an insult.

[Rapscallion]

BTW, it does sound to me, as if you are insulting my beliefs. I have my own different reasons, as to believe in GOD. And not you nor anyone else, can change that.

Here, you're on a debate forum. If you put forward a theory or belief, expect someone who thinks otherwise to challenge it.

Back to the original topic, though, if a devout christian was involved in a similar accident as yours and died, would that mean that they really didn't believe after all?

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

If you were not insulting, then my bad. But to me and at the time I wrote that, it did come across as an insult
Is okay. I know I can come off harsh/brash at times. Usually when i get insulting it can be noticed. So far I havent had any reason to get insulting though which is both pleasant and surprising. Pleasant as some other debate forum I hav ebeen to all it seems like is flame wars. I shouldnt be surprised though as the fire department on here is quite responsive.....

Anyhow. I was just curious. So if I read you right. It wouldn't matter what faith a person followed as long as they followed a faith they would have lived?

So what about like what raps asked? If a person of faith died. What if they have no faith whatsoever and lived? By ascribing all end results in situations like that to just supernatural means that kinda demotes human ingenuity and invention and skill. Because if in a wreck its not the safety design of the engineers and builders but only if the person believes enough why don't we still just drive the big ol steel boats or old wooden cars like they used to?

Or is it a case of trust in god but still pack your own parachute?

[AFPheonix]

I am sure if I was prayed to Buddha, that I would still be alive also.

Interestingly enough, Buddha is not a deity in the Buddhist faith. He is merely the first person to have achieved full True Awakening through meditation and the accumulation of good Karma. Buddhists who achieve the same level of Awakening also become Buddhas. "Buddha" means one who not only has achieved true awakening, but teaches the path to awakening to others.
I this is the only major "religion" that is athiestic to the core that I can think of off the top of my head.

And there's your religious trivia for the day!

[lumlite]

Edit: Sorry, talking out of my ass.

[Ree]

It's an interesting question, Raps.

I used to be a very devout Catholic, but after my daughter's accident, I just kind of fell away from regular attendance at Mass, although I still have a lot of the same ideals and faith that I used to have.

I think my biggest problem came from having everyone say how lucky she was after the accident.

She came within about an inch of being decapitated.
Every wound on her body was only a hair's length away from either a vital organ or artery.
There were barely any marks on her face.

People saw all of that as evidence that a higher power had been looking out for her.

My argument was that if a higher power had been looking out for her, the accident wouldn't have happened.
To counter that argument, I got the standard, "Everything happens for a reason."

I still can't wrap my head around that one.

[powerboy]

RAPS, I know where you are coming from. I am only telling about what happened to me.

[Rapscallion]

Aye, but if your god saves those who believe, shouldn't that apply to everyone who believes? That's the fundamental of my question.

Rapscallion

[DexX]

See, I don't think this is just a harmless belief system. I think it can (and has many times throughout Judeo-Christian history) be a very negative thing.

I mean, take someone who has a terrible accident and gets away relatively unscathed, and they say, "I was saved by God because of the strength of my faith." What precisely does this say about the hundreds or thousands of people who die in similar accidents? Were they bad people? Were they bad Christians (or bad followers of whatever their faith may be)? This suggests that clean-living devout folks never suffer from their accidents, and those whose faith is lacking may be smitten for not praying correctly.

This leads into the whole Judaic leper attitude: if you were a leper in Jesus-era Jerusalem, it's because you deserved it, either because of something you did or something your parents did. The same logic may be applied to anyone who does die in a car crash, or whose cancer doesn't go into remission (or does but then comes back). If God personally intervenes to save some people because they are worthy of saving, then obviously those whom He choose not to save must be unworthy.

See? It's a very dangerous line of thinking, and perfectly logical once you have accepted the premise that God saves people who would otherwise die because they have shown themselves to be worthy somehow.

I am a lapsed Catholic, and my Christian faith faded specifically because of logic quandaries like this. If God is precisely as depicted by Christian dogma, then he's a vindictive, mean, manipulative, game-playing, passive-aggressive sadist. If there is something out there, it isn't the God the modern church shows us. I still retain a kind of formless spirituality - I have encountered enough supernatural weirdness in my life to believe that there is something other than humanity around, even if it's only non-sentient emotional residue, and I believe there is more to people than we can currently measure with science. I think there might be some kind of universal consciousness, but perhaps it is only conscious like an ant colony - many small minds swarming together, carrying out big plans that none of them could possibly understand individually.

If you ever felt like your life was being controlled by an outside foce, maybe it's just the hive mind. ;)

[Norton]

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

This site gives some great arguments as to why prayer doesn't work. Instead of quoting, I'll broadly paraphrase the main argument and let you read the site yourselves:

Two devout christians are in a hospital. One has cancer, the other has had his leg amputated. They both pray fervently to be cured of their malady. The man who has cancer goes into remission - it must have been God who did it, right? But the amputee - just as good and faithful - will never grow his leg back, no matter how much he prays. God will not answer impossible prayers. It's possible for a person with cancer to go into remission, but not possible to regenerate a limb.

Powerboy, though it may have been unlikely for you to survive that accident, it was possible. The only way I can be convinced that prayer works is if God answered an impossible prayer - something that could not possibly be attributed to human effort, or nature or coincedence.

But therein lies the difference between us. Faith is about believing in something even when there's a lack of physical proof. I simply have no faith in the matter of prayer.