How to Get Into Heaven

[Greenday]

My friend and I were just having a debate on this subject. She, being from the South, has a strong upbringing in the Christian religion where apparently only her beliefs are the only ones possible. I believe this to be total narrow-mindedness, but yea.

Her side: It doesn't matter if you were a good or bad person. Your intent in life doesn't mean a thing. As long as you believe Jesus died to save us, God will let you into heaven. Since God is perfect, everyone will hear his word one way or another, and on that basis, they will be able to accept Jesus as their savior.

My side: As long as you tried to be a good person in your life, God will forgive you for your imperfections as long as you ask for forgiveness and truly mean it. A serial killer or a rapist who feel no remorse about what they did shouldn't be allowed to just go into heaven because they say Jesus is their savior. If that's the case, then what's to stop me from going around, killing people as I please, as long as I say that Jesus is my homeboy? And just because she grew up in an area where it's impossible not to hear about Jesus doesn't mean there aren't places where it is possible to never hear about Jesus once in your life. I don't see too many people going into places like Palestine and other heavily Muslim areas telling them they have the wrong faith and to believe in Jesus. Surely someone as perfect as God would not send someone to hell because of the way they were raised and they way society shaped and molded them. Because, let's face it, to condemn someone because of something completely out of their control is just a dick thing to do, and God, being perfect, is not a dick.

[AFPheonix]

The saved by grace, not by works idea is very standard across the board for most evangelical churches these days. However, those dogmas do not discount works entirely though. They do not add to your salvation, but they do speak to the condition of your soul.

As to other religions, it just doesn't make sense to me that only a few people in one society would be able to correctly discern whatever higher power is out there. I think that every society dealt with the idea of the supernatural in their own way, and none of them are really entirely wrong.
Furthermore, I feel that many religions, including christianity, have been melded by men to control the populace. This isn't an entirely bad thing though, in my opinion. The old testament laws, for example, probably had more bite as rule of law for the tribes than it would have it they didn't have an ultimate judgement cast down by God, in the eyes of the people. I think they helped a lot with the creation of a functional society.
That control can be used in a not-so-good way of course (see the Crusades), but that is why we always need to be diligent.

[Seshat]

If God is omnipotent, He is perfectly capable of ensuring that everyone in the world is aware of Jesus.

If God is a fair, just and caring deity, and He had a rule that only those who worship Jesus got into heaven; then he would ensure that everyone in the world had the knowledge to worship Jesus.

God has not ensured that everyone in the world is aware of Jesus.

Therefore, if God is a fair, just and caring deity, he must have some arrangement for people who haven't heard of Jesus, at worst.

My personal belief is that all that is good remains good, no matter whose name it is done in. All that is evil remain evil, no matter whose name it is done in.

[Ryu]

But by that standards, if you dont succumb to this societies way of judging the morality of an act, everyone does evil and as such no one could get into Heaven
Who hasnt lied? Cheated? Stole? Broke the law? Lusted? etc etc etc
No one is good enough to get into Heaven by their own merits because we live in a fallen world and our only hope it Grace, which comes from God alone through Jesus Christ.

[Greenday]

I'm not saying you have to be good 100% of the time. That's impossible, I don't care what anyone says. I just feel as long as you tried to be a good person, and when all is said and done, you truly feel remorse for the things you've done wrong, you shouldn't have anything to worry about in the afterlife.

[IDrinkaRum]

I am a Roman Catholic. I am a wayward Catholic. (I had a crisis of faith 10 years ago, and am just now beginning to re-embrace my faith once more).

That being said, I know as a Catholic, I am told to believe that as long as you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved. (After all, Catholics, like Protestants, are Christians).

However, I believe that God in his infinite wisdom and love of man, made him come down to Earth and tell man about himself. (This is why in the Jewish and Native American religions, there are stories of the Great Flood - though the origins and stories are different, they agree there was a flood).

What I'm trying to say is this: God came to man and told him about himself. Then those chosen men and women to whom God entrusted his word to, went back to their tribes people and explained God in their own way/voice/tradition.

For me, God is God. There is only one God and he is the God of all religions.

Does that make sense? I hope so, if not, I'm just rambling and please ignore. :o

[Seshat]

But by that standards, if you dont succumb to this societies way of judging the morality of an act, everyone does evil and as such no one could get into Heaven
Who hasnt lied? Cheated? Stole? Broke the law? Lusted? etc etc etc


The good we do cancels out some of the evil. On balance, are you a good person or an evil person?

If you follow Christ's commandment, and live with love for all people as he did, seeing the good even in poor fishermen and prostitutes, then you will on balance be a good person.

Similarly, other prophets and holy men (such as Guatama Buddha and the current Dalai Llama) provide guidance towards being a basically good person.

[Will-Mun]

How do you get into heaven? Thats easy!


You don't, it doesn't actually exist. :D


This has been Asshole Atheist Theater! Thanks for coming, try the veal!

[rahmota]

The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?



Pretty much you make your own heaven in your own life to your own standards. Heaven and hell are social contructs from human inventions.

[SongsOfDragons]

Naaaaaawww!!! When you die ya go to Limbo Incorporated, the bureaucracy of the afterlife!! An eternity of souls can't be wrong and every customer has been jetted off to their next life satisfied. I should know, I'm the marketing CEO!!!

;-)

LOL. This is my dissertation topic which gradually evolved into the thing I believed-slash- the thing I say to utterly baffle any religious nut in their tracks. I really should start taking pictures of their faces afterwards.

[powerboy]

I'm not saying you have to be good 100% of the time. That's impossible, I don't care what anyone says. I just feel as long as you tried to be a good person, and when all is said and done, you truly feel remorse for the things you've done wrong, you shouldn't have anything to worry about in the afterlife.


That is how I feel.

[Luna]

But by that standards, if you dont succumb to this societies way of judging the morality of an act, everyone does evil and as such no one could get into Heaven
Who hasnt lied? Cheated? Stole? Broke the law? Lusted? etc etc etc
No one is good enough to get into Heaven by their own merits because we live in a fallen world and our only hope it Grace, which comes from God alone through Jesus Christ.

But Ryu, why does grace only come from Jesus? Why can't grace come from Buddha, or the Goddess Diana, or Isis?

[Ryu]

Because there is only one God
I know its not popular to claim that your religion is the only true one, and I'm not bashing or looking down on anyone of another or no religion, but I'd rather be unpopular and at the very least allow people a chance to know God than be popular and let everyone continue in how their going
I realize its different with an online forum but truth offline is still truth online

[Brede]

You are right. There is only one God. And it's every God. Every single faith, every single God, (even Science!) is merely a human attempt to comprehend the magnitude of the reality. Your God, The Muslim's God- all of them. So each one is a reflection of God seen through fallible human eyes.

Or at least, that has always been how I have interpreted that particular phrase.
There is only one God, because they are the same. So we follow the same God, just a different reflection that is easier for us to see and follow.

[Seshat]

Let's presume that everyone is a competent, intelligent human being, with an equal chance of being correct about God.

You (Ryu) know that God is God because you have been taught so, you believe so, or you have felt His touch during a religious experience. Perhaps some combination of those.

However, while there are millions of Christians in the world who share your belief, there are also millions of people of other religions who have also been taught their religious beliefs, believe them, and have felt the touch of their own dieties.

I believe it to be arrogant to call other people wrong; that it essentially claims that your beliefs, your experiences, are correct and other people are less intelligent, less competent than you; that their religious experiences are less valid than yours.

[Ryu]

I dont feel they are less intelligent, less competent, or their religious expeirences are less valid to them then mine are solely based on that
I do feel that they are misguided in their search for truth and that saddens me, but their religion doesnt change how I view them. I am friends with wiccans, jewish people, agnostics, atheists, and probably some others that I dont know about because I dont ask or care. But I try to show everyone what I believe is the only truth, and while it may be arrogant to say it is the only truth, that is how I feel
My religious views arent for others, they are for God, and if they offend other people thats their problem not mine

[AFPheonix]

I dunno. If God is such a powerful force in the world and the universe, how come only a small population out of the many populations on earth were able to discern Him "correctly?
I don't think that is a logical mindset. I think that each population came up with their sets of beliefs to explain whatever it was they were discerning. And like I said earlier, I also think that shrewd leaders melded those beliefs into a religion that could also control people's behaviors.

I do feel that science has a completely different job than religion does. There are many things that religion can explain that science can't and vice-versa. I'm rather Steven Jay Gouldian in that philosophy ;)

[Seshat]

I dont feel they are less intelligent, less competent, or their religious expeirences are less valid to them then mine are solely based on that
<snip>
But I try to show everyone what I believe is the only truth, and while it may be arrogant to say it is the only truth, that is how I feel
<snip>
My religious views arent for others, they are for God, and if they offend other people thats their problem not mine

But if their religious experiences are as valid as yours, then how can your God be the only God, your truth the only truth?

Especially in parts of the world where Christianity is dominant, there are many people who have been raised Christian, are familiar with the faith, yet have gone to other faiths to find their own Truths.

As for offending people being other peoples' problem: perhaps. But repeat offence is one of the reasons I consciously avoid places where Christians gather. It's dreadful advertising, it drives people away.

[IDrinkaRum]

I am a Christian. I am a Roman Catholic to be exact. I have friends who are Christian (more protestants than catholic), who are jewish, pagan, wiccan, etc.

I believe that God is God. No matter what religion you choose to follow. God is the same God for all religions, we just view him/her differently and worship him/her as we see fit.

I don't know if I posted this already, but here goes: God came to Mankind (and I'm using it in the vernacular to encompass the entire human race), gave mankind his/her word and then mankind chose to interpret what God had told them. No one is right and no one is wrong in how they view God. Religion is personal to each and every one of us.

God loves us all. No matter what we think of him/her.

[BroomJockey]

I don't believe in Heaven, but for the sake of the argument, I'll go with it.

With everything that God is supposed to be, I cannot understand how anyone could justify the belief that He'd allow a basically good human to burn in Hell, or be banished to Purgatory, or where ever, simply because they had the misfortune of being mislead as a youth, or even while older. If He is our Creator, then He knows our failings, and our souls. So He'd be a right prick to keep someone out of His Paradise just because they'd sadly let themselves be misled.

This argument, of course, being one reason I'm now agnostic towards any monothesism.

[BlaqueKatt]

going to be unpopular here but hey isn't that what this is for?

Heaven is a cop-out.

Why you ask?(I did not write the following)

Atheists have a stronger claim on morality than believers.

Jewish, Christian, and Muslim teaching all threaten an eternity of punishment for failure to follow the guidelines of behavior laid down by a supreme being. It's shocking that this forms the basis for the most intolerant and belligerent claims to righteousness in human history. Think about it: following the Ten Commandments isn't morality; it's obedience.

Recall from Genesis that Adam and Eve did not originally know right from wrong. This curse befell them for disobeying God's simple instruction that they not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. According to traditional Christian doctrine, lack of obedience is the source of all sin in the world.

Atheists, however, behave morally without any promise of reward or punishment. It's pure, honest, untarnished morality. Atheists are the most tolerant people around because they have the perspective to see the inherent immorality of forcing someone else to conform to your own religious code of obedience. Because of their belief that this life is the only one we'll ever have, atheists abhor violence and injustice.

To bring in current events, consider this: while Christians and Muslims may "want" peace, only atheists truly need it. Without the promise of heaven, no people could ever wage war.


If you stop telling people "everything will be ok once you die and go to heaven" maybe we'd try to fix things before then.

The Buddha was very clear that nothing he said was to be taken as doctrine. You can believe in something or not believe it as your own particular reasoning and life experience dictates, but always be ready to abandon it in the face of a superior argument. It's not that there's no room for faith, it's that doubt is also a big factor in the equation.

[ArenaBoy]

In the words of Frank Zappa:

So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that "evil" woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb fuck and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.

[Boozy]

Atheists, however, behave morally without any promise of reward or punishment.

The reason so many Christian leaders rant about the evils of atheism is because they do not believe this is possible. They cannot wrap their minds around how a person could choose to be good without reward.

What does that say about them? :rolleyes:

[Greenday]

The past three posts have me laughing pretty hard. That's a pretty darn good way to put it. All very good points though. It's hard for me to disagree with them at all.

[Kaylyn]

My two cents, as a former Christian currently Universalist/Pagan:

The reason I chose to leave Christianity was because of the dogma of the Christians. It made no sense for God to say, "Okay, I'm gonna make about 6 billion people. I'm also going to give them freedom of choice. BUT, if they don't make the RIGHT choice, I'm gonna damn them to a pit of fiery torment for all eternity MWAHAHAHA!"

Christianity is a mythology, plain and simple. Just like every other religion out there. Ask a Roman or Greek thousands of years ago...they believed fervently in their pantheons of gods and goddesses. Yet today we call their faith a mythology. Christianity is no different. Thousands of years from now, when the faith has died out because, guess what, Christ never returned and we're living in the craphole that will undoubtedly come about because we felt we could drain all the planet's resources because he WAS coming back, he promised, and therefore it didn't matter...we'll be following another major faith and looking back at the mythology of the past...oh, those silly Christians, didn't they know the only true faith is the Flying Spaghetti Monster? The kids will be reading about it as ancient history in their social studies books.

All that being said, I turned towards a new faith (started out as Wiccan and evolved from there) because I still believed in God and needed to find a way to worship that I could agree with. I believe God knows I did not turn my back on him, just that particular type of worship. I now believe that God is way too big to be squished into one book. If that's all you base your belief on God, well, I'm not one to judge anyone, but I think faith is better served by looking around at how you can make the world a better place, not on how many people you can convert. Christianity is so focused on death, what happens when you die, life after death, death of the Savior, etc. I prefer to focus on life. All we are guaranteed to have is this moment, so I prefer to live my life moment-by-moment, making the world around me just a teensy bit better as I go along. I don't believe in a hell created by God; however, I think your own beliefs will have a profound impact on how you experience life after death. If you believe in heaven and believe you've earned it, you'll be there. If you think you deserve hell, you'll be there. I believe in reincarnation...one lifetime is just too short to experience everything, so I feel comforted in believing I'll get another chance to experience everything. I may be completely wrong, but faith isn't about what's right and wrong, it's about your own perceptions on God.

As for what someone said about a Christian being able to say they're saved and continue to commit evil acts...I think that works are evidence of faith. If you say the words and your actions don't testify to them, then it has to be asked if you truly meant the words. I doubt many people truly believe that the death row inmate that says he's found Jesus as he's being strapped down for execution is truly "saved."

(Heh, arguing both sides of a religious debate is fun!) :)

[Amethyst Hunter]

I now believe that God is way too big to be squished into one book. If that's all you base your belief on God, well, I'm not one to judge anyone, but I think faith is better served by looking around at how you can make the world a better place, not on how many people you can convert. Christianity is so focused on death, what happens when you die, life after death, death of the Savior, etc. I prefer to focus on life.


Totally agreed. (Agnostic here)

however, I think your own beliefs will have a profound impact on how you experience life after death. If you believe in heaven and believe you've earned it, you'll be there. If you think you deserve hell, you'll be there.

One problem: all the assholes out there are naturally going to believe that they deserve heaven (when they really don't)! And frankly, if heaven is going to be full of assholes, I don't wanna be there stuck with 'em for eternity.

[AFPheonix]

That's entirely dependent on whether there will be an afterlife. Frankly, I think I'd be ok if there isn't. Just to never wake up again. Sounds really rather peaceful.

[Difdi]

I remember a quote I found particularly enlightening, though I can't remember where I first encountered it.

"God does not need your permission."

Every religion claims to offer truth. Some of them claim to be the only source of it. But the ones that claim exclusivity can't all be right, or they'd be the same religion. But they're not. I find it highly unlikely that there is only one divine being or philosophy, however. Even the most monotheistic Christian can't deny the existence of Exodus 20:3, one of the Ten Commandments, which states "Do not have any other gods before me". If there is no God but God (something most Christians and Muslims can agree on), then why devote something as important as a Commandment to basically stating the existence of multiple Gods? If I worship the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims as my chief God, how am I un-Christian if I also acknowledge that early Jews also worshiped the wife of God as his equal, and do the same?

For all I know, Jesus was just an unusually successful con-man and the real supreme being is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Until I go to see for myself, I can't know. And there are so many people, of so many mutually exclusive religions willing to scream that only they are right, how can I know? Even faith only goes so far.

It is better, I think, to be as good a person as I can in my life, and not worry about what comes after. I take the atheist view that someone who is moral without fear of reward or punishment is more worthy and good than someone who only obeys laws from fear of consequences, or only is good in order to "earn" rewards in heaven. As if a supreme being can't see through such deception to see the truth in our souls?

If I am wrong, then an omniscient, loving God will know I did my best. If he Made me, then he is to blame for any flaws, as any craftsman who turns out flawed work is to blame. I am only to blame for those flaws that I do not struggle to overcome. My success or failure in this is ultimately irrelevant as long as I persistently and honestly try. If God is not such a being, then he is unworthy of my worship and allegiance, and free will is nothing but a vicious and deceptive lie. There is a being in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim mythos who fits that description, but he is not God.

[Shangri-laschild]

Lets say that there is one true church (not something I actually believe). I can't see how, if someone of a different faith was a good person and tried to make themselves a better person they won't be accepted.

I do believe in God, though I haven't completely worked out what exactly I do believe yet. I do lean more towards the idea that it all basically is about the same God and there are different ways of worshiping.

From bible study classes I remember there being a lot about being a good person and trying to do the right thing (even though you're not perfect, doing your best). I was always taught that religion is about you and God while churches are made by people. People aren't perfect. This doesn't mean that churches are evil. It just means that while the message might be good, the people leading them aren't perfect. I'm not saying I have any problem with going to church. I actually like the sense of community that some of them can bring.

[DarthRetard]

Alright, it seems like we have a lot of non-christians on this forum, and some are bashing the religion pretty heavily. I'm happy to see that the supporters in the negation side are NOT trying to quote the bible against us, as many are wont to do, thanks to ignorance, and stupidity, and lack of knowledge on the subject.

Kaylyn: Even during the days of the Romans, Christianity still existed, and as Roman beliefs waned and became referred to as mythology, Christianity still remained. You can't prove Jesus never came back, and until you take me back into a time machine, and show me a grave three days after Christ's crucifixion, and show me a body that is My Lord And Savior's, then you have me convinced.

I think there's some confusion on the issue of God, so I'll throw my two cents in to try and help out. I'm not speaking for anyone else, and I don't claim to be, for the record. Mind you, this is how I was raised as a Christian, and my beliefs as I've grown in and away from the Church and developed my relationship with God.

God is being made to look like, right now, a vengeful, vindictive, aggravatable asshole (double alliteration points for me!), who simply wants worship (as most deities do), and it's his way or the highway. You're right, in one sense, it's his way, or the highway (to hell), and for me, I follow the religion not because of fear of Judgement Day, but because I know the guidelines set before me in this book of His words gives me guidance for any trouble I may need.

In the Old Testament, God created the Earth, and, eventually, man. He created man because he desired companionship, and fellowship. In Genesis, it speaks of Adam walking and talking with God, not God making Adam do dishes, and build sculptures, and worship and revel in his name. He simply wanted THANKS, because you know, creating an entire existence is just a bit harder than Through The Fire and The Flames on Guitar Hero 3.

We all know of the Adam and Eve betrayal story, but how many of you know about Satan (or Lucifer) and his history with God? Lucifer was of the highest Choir of Angels, and was one of God's most valued. He was said to be beautiful, to where it became his prerogative to usurp God's very place of power. Lucifer and his angels whom he'd sullied, fought Michael(whom you see later speaking to John The Baptist's parents and Mary the Virgin) and his Angels, and lost, to be banished to a place we now know as hell.

There you have your dichotomy of Good, and Evil.

Now, we move on to humans. God created us in his own image, as was said in the Bible. Now, to say that we all look like God, is a confusing idea, because, we're not infallible creatures. Which is not to say we never were, because God created us as pure as undriven snow, and again, we had the privelege of walking and talking with God until we were driven by our natural naivety(sp?) and trust/belief in the goodness of all.

Eventually, this led to a major downspiral for our entire race, and God was frustrated, and upset. We were betraying everything he'd made us to be, and us, being in his image, were not being what we should have. Since this, in the Bible it tells us we are all born into sin, and God even recognizes our shortcomings with the verse "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." He recognizes that, he truly does, in the book of Job, for instance. He proved that Job, no matter what God threw at him, was faithful in God's diligence and dedication to those who showed faith in him.

The Bible is not a book of rules to be used for sentencing on Judgement Day, it is a guideline transcribed by people whom God chose to give his word to, in order that we may share it with others.

As for the argument that God is omnipotent and could let everyone hear about him, then yes, I could see how that makes sense Seshat, but you see, it's too easy that way. Why should we be given everything at a moment's notice when the going get's tough? It is up to my fellow Christians and myself to spread his word, if we truly believe in it. We try everyday, and we're meant to try through example, through good faith, and practice, not through destroying our fellow man, and berating his senses. A lot of denominations and individuals have abused what the Bible tells us.

[the_std]

Even during the days of the Romans, Christianity still existed, and as Roman beliefs waned and became referred to as mythology, Christianity still remained. You can't prove Jesus never came back, and until you take me back into a time machine, and show me a grave three days after Christ's crucifixion, and show me a body that is My Lord And Savior's, then you have me convinced.

I just want to say that, even though we can't prove he wasn't there, we can't prove that he was, either.

I believe that Christianity is a mythology, just like I believe Jainism to be a mythology, just like I believe Islam to be a mythology. Calling it a mythology doesn't make it less applicable to those who believe in it and I don't see it as a negative word.

I find it incredibly difficult to understand how people can put blind faith in any deity, because I simply do not think that way. I went to Catholic schools from grade three till I graduated high school, and I understand the history of Christianity, I understand that lots and lots of people believe these things... I just don't quite see how. This makes it very hard for me to believe in life after death. And, to be completely honest, I'm hoping there isn't any. I'm looking forward to a nice long rest.

[DarthRetard]

I just want to say that, even though we can't prove he wasn't there, we can't prove that he was, either.

I believe that Christianity is a mythology, just like I believe Jainism to be a mythology, just like I believe Islam to be a mythology. Calling it a mythology doesn't make it less applicable to those who believe in it and I don't see it as a negative word.

I understand about not being able to prove one way or another, I really do. I was merely stating a grounds for my disbelief to occur, that's all. As for the mythology issue, if it was mythological, it would make it completely untrue. I can't give you scientific evidence to prove that it is, or isnt true. All I can tell you is that in my heart and faith, I know it to be true. As it is with other christians. We know we can't prove it, but for our faith, evidence is not an issue. I see how some find that hard to believe, and human nature over time has definitely become a "prove it" mentality.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen."

That verse in itself says it all, and every christian questions their faith, including Mother Theresa herself who, in her book mentions she felt like there was a period of 20 years without God's influence. She soon realized that it's not about God being there all the time, it's about his influence and his words carrying us through the good and the bad.

I myself am in a conflict where all I have is my faith to go on, and hope that my re-enlistment waiver is approved and signed. I have no evidence one way or the other that it will or won't, but all I can do is put it in the hands of someone who knows what's best for the creature he created and brought into this world.

I'm just trying to shake off this nasty stigma that all Christians preach "fire and brimstone" gospel nowadays, it really bugs me that we're stuck with that stereotype.

[the_std]

As for the mythology issue, if it was mythological, it would make it completely untrue.


my·thol·o·gy Audio Help /mɪˈθɒlədʒi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mi-thol-uh-jee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -gies.
1. a body of myths, as that of a particular people or that relating to a particular person: Greek mythology.
2. myths collectively.
3. the science or study of myths.
4. a set of stories, traditions, or beliefs associated with a particular group or the history of an event, arising naturally or deliberately fostered

From dictionary.com (Mythology (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mythology))

Sorry. Just wanted to point out that "mythology" doesn't necessarily mean "completely untrue". I know I'm being nitpicky, but here it is.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Even the most monotheistic Christian can't deny the existence of Exodus 20:3, one of the Ten Commandments, which states "Do not have any other gods before me". If there is no God but God (something most Christians and Muslims can agree on), then why devote something as important as a Commandment to basically stating the existence of multiple Gods?

I interpret that commandment as this: "Gods" can mean anything that the person places top value to over God, not necessarily multiple actual deities.

For example, if one claims to be a Christian but chooses to dedicate one's 'worship' (i.e., attention, and obsessively so) towards the pursuit of wealth and power instead of following Jesus's teachings (help the poor, be kind to others, so on), then that person is 'worshipping' the 'gods' of money and power - which by Christ's standards is a BIG no-no, being that He spoke most about the sin of loving money above all else.

(Money, as is commonly perceived in error, is NOT necessarily evil in and of itself. It's the lust/greed for it and the abuse of it that is the sin, hence the saying "money is the root of all evil." Remember, Christ also said that there was nothing wrong with paying taxes to Caesar - "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's; give to God what is God's.")


God is being made to look like, right now, a vengeful, vindictive, aggravatable asshole (double alliteration points for me!), who simply wants worship (as most deities do), and it's his way or the highway....It is up to my fellow Christians and myself to spread his word, if we truly believe in it. We try everyday, and we're meant to try through example, through good faith, and practice, not through destroying our fellow man, and berating his senses. A lot of denominations and individuals have abused what the Bible tells us.

That's why the sensible practitioners of ANY religion - of which I do believe are the majority of religious folks out there - NEED to actively work with people whose views they may disagree with (ex. - pro-life working with pro-choice), and crack down on the asshats that are blaspheming the faiths. Yes, blaspheming. I don't for one second believe that any God condones the encouragement of outright murder and persecution of any one particular people, no matter what their race, religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, or any other personal factor, let alone the actual vile acts. Not any God worth devoting oneself to, anyway. The silence - and I'm not saying that there aren't any religious folks who aren't speaking out against injustices; there are a lot of them that do exist - only encourages the bullies. That's partly why we have popular stereotypes like the psycho Islamic militant, or the hellfire-and-brimstone Christian.

No, religious and non-religious will never agree on everything (particularly touchy subjects), but there are some common factors that both sides can and do agree on, and there's where people need to base their efforts on. Life is not a convert-to-win numbers contest, nor should it be. (Even God Himself said that there would be more joy in heaven over one sinner that truly repented of his evil than over a hundred faithful converts!)

[AFPheonix]

I think that you'll find that many of us on this board came from a Christian tradition and moved beyond it.
I myself grew up Plymouth Brethren and was excommunicated from the church when I married my non-christian husband and refused appeals of the congregation to not go through with my marriage or to repent afterwards.
I did the whole sunday school, Bible Club, Christian school youth group thing. I know quite a lot about how the Bible is taught to evangelical christians. I've also taken more secular classes on the Bible, too.

Personally, I know that Evangelicals are taught that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but I find it difficult to believe that the only people who were able to discern God correctly was one little tribe out near Mesopotamia.

[DarthRetard]

(Even God Himself said that there would be more joy in heaven over one sinner that truly repented of his evil than over a hundred faithful converts!)

There lies just one piece of proof that God is not a vicious or vindictive God.

I do agree Amethyst, the lack of cooperation and the amount of dislike and bad blood between the two groups is a factor which should be overcome, but just as there are people who make the good christians look like jerks, there are people who make the people on the other side of the fence look like intolerant jerks too. It does swing both ways, and those minute groups of people skew everything we see and believe because of the way our media tends to project it onto the masses.

I may be pro-life, but that doesn't mean I hate anyone who's pro-choice, or won't speak to them to learn more about why they feel that way, or maybe even learn enough from them to change my views a little bit, you know?

We should be willing to learn from each other, in order that we can all grow as human beings, and work for a better good, regardless of what deity asks us to.

[Rapscallion]

There lies just one piece of proof that God is not a vicious or vindictive God.


2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

That's from Malachi 2. There are many examples of what a good guy your god isn't, available from any search page. Of course, there will be claims that the new testament lays that all to rest, but it's the same dude with a PR job.

I'm all for being nice to people, but I'll do it because it's the right thing to do - not because of a particular ancient bit of writing.

Rapscallion

[Zyanya]

There lies just one piece of proof that God is not a vicious or vindictive God.


Proofs god is not vicious or vindictive - 1
Proofs god is vicious and vindictive - infinity +1

I have read the bible.

[AFPheonix]

That's from Malachi 2. There are many examples of what a good guy your god isn't, available from any search page. Of course, there will be claims that the new testament lays that all to rest, but it's the same dude with a PR job.



Rapscallion

Not to mention than Jesus himself said that he did not come to do away with the law, but to complete it. He did not negate anything that came before him, and that includes all the stuff that people gloss over in the minor prophets, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
God of the book of Judges was pretty gnarly, too.

[DarthRetard]

I understand what you're saying Raps and AFP, and I fully comprehend what God has/hasn't done. I don't claim to understand it all, because only God really knows, to be honest. That's where I leave it up to faith.

[AFPheonix]

And that's all anyone can expect from you. As for me, my faith isn't extinguished, it's just headed into another direction.

[DarthRetard]

Again, I understand, and I'm not pushing my faith on a single person.

[Seshat]

In the Old Testament, God created the Earth, and, eventually, man.
<snip>
We all know of the Adam and Eve betrayal story, but how many of you know about Satan (or Lucifer) and his history with God?
<snip>
Now, we move on to humans. God created us in his own image, as was said in the Bible.
<snip>
Eventually, this led to a major downspiral for our entire race, and God was frustrated, and upset.

The Bible is not a book of rules to be used for sentencing on Judgement Day, it is a guideline transcribed by people whom God chose to give his word to, in order that we may share it with others.


Yup. Know it. Read it. Studied it. Even taught it.

As for the argument that God is omnipotent and could let everyone hear about him, then yes, I could see how that makes sense Seshat, but you see, it's too easy that way. Why should we be given everything at a moment's notice when the going get's tough? It is up to my fellow Christians and myself to spread his word, if we truly believe in it.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. If God is fair and kind and benevolent and generous and so on, then He won't care that Nbala the isolated pygmy hasn't heard the story of Jesus - He will care that Nbala the pygmy has been a good-hearted, loving husband and father and general all-around great person.

If God is fair and kind and all that, then He won't care that Jim the homocidal maniac has listened to the missionary in jail and mouthed the right prayers and so on - He'll care that Jim is just doing that to save his soul, not because he's actually interested in being a great person.

It's not Nbala's fault that he was born out in the wilds and never met a Christian. It's not any great virtue in Jim that he was born in a Christian nation.

Sure, it might be nice for Christians to go ahead and spread the word. It may well do your souls good. But what does it do for Nbala? Or his parents, grandparents, great-great-to-the-nth grandparents?

IF God is kind and benevolent and all that, AND cares how He is worshipped, then He will have made certain that Nbala and his great-to-the-nth grandparents knew how to do it.

Since he didn't? Then either He's a miserable bastard who's doomed Nbala's ancestors to Hell for the misfortune of being precisely where He placed them anyway - or He is content with Nbala's spiritual and religious life.

We try everyday, and we're meant to try through example, through good faith, and practice,

I believe in being generally a good person, generally a nice person, and trying to be the best you that you can be.

If Christians are hanging around me trying to do much the same - great! Let's show miserable assholes that being good, decent people makes everyone happier. We could even link arms and sing Kumbaya if you really want to.

not through destroying our fellow man, and berating his senses. A lot of denominations and individuals have abused what the Bible tells us.

You won't get any argument about that. :(

As for the mythology issue, if it was mythological, it would make it completely untrue.

Myth and legend are 'may or may not be true'. Troy was deemed to be mythological, but eventually a city which matched the myths was dug up and archeologically studied.

There is some evidence that the sinking of Atlantis was a volcanically-triggered landslide tsunami, combined with a volcano. The concentric circle pattern of the capital city suggests a crater-lake volcano - and if that was the one which blew, it's no surprise that we can't find much evidence of the capital city itself. Though there is a crater-lake island which might be the one, which has architecture traces that match the Minoan (I think) civilisation. I think the island is Santorini.
(NOTE: this is a memory of a Discovery channel or National Geographic channel special. Don't ask for details!)

I'm just trying to shake off this nasty stigma that all Christians preach "fire and brimstone" gospel nowadays, it really bugs me that we're stuck with that stereotype.

The problem is that the loudest Christians either preach fire and brimstone, or preach 'pay me lots of money to get to heaven'.

The rest of you - if you want good press - need to figure out some way to get the message out that they're not representative. On the other hand, many people (like me) know that they're not representative.

That's why the sensible practitioners of ANY religion - of which I do believe are the majority of religious folks out there - NEED to actively work with people whose views they may disagree with (ex. - pro-life working with pro-choice), and crack down on the asshats that are blaspheming the faiths. Yes, blaspheming.
<snip>
The silence - and I'm not saying that there aren't any religious folks who aren't speaking out against injustices; there are a lot of them that do exist - only encourages the bullies. That's partly why we have popular stereotypes like the psycho Islamic militant, or the hellfire-and-brimstone Christian.

May I have an 'Amen!'

So mote it be.

I do agree Amethyst, the lack of cooperation and the amount of dislike and bad blood between the two groups is a factor which should be overcome, but just as there are people who make the good christians look like jerks, there are people who make the people on the other side of the fence look like intolerant jerks too.
<snip>
We should be willing to learn from each other, in order that we can all grow as human beings, and work for a better good, regardless of what deity asks us to.

Evil which is done in the Name of Good is still evil.
Good which is done in the Name of Evil is still good.

Deeds matter more than the Name in which the deeds are done.

I understand what you're saying Raps and AFP, and I fully comprehend what God has/hasn't done. I don't claim to understand it all, because only God really knows, to be honest. That's where I leave it up to faith.

And I can't. It's just not part of who I am.

However, if God made me - He made me how I am. And if He is a just and loving deity, He loves me just as I am, and recognises my efforts to be the best me that I can be.

[DarthRetard]

All I can say in reply to your post Seshat, because I'm not trying to preach to you or convince you out of your own opinion, is simply this:

Maybe God does have a special sort of provision for those who never got to hear the word, but at the same time followed the basic principles that make a Christian favorable in God's eyes, I'll try and find out, and see if there's something in the Bible that indicates it.

I understand how hard it is to have faith, especially in something you cant see, but again "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of things not seen." As for God's criteria on faith, Jesus stated in a parable that if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Norton]

Jesus stated in a parable that if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


How can faith be measured? I thought either you have faith, or you don't. Kind of like being pregnant. You can't be just a little bit pregnant - either you are or you aren't.

I've read the Bible, probably more than once over the course of my lifetime. I see it as nothing more than an amalgam of historical documents, and mythological stories (with some poetry, letters, and geneologies thrown in). There are far too many questions for me to have faith in the Bible.

Genesis always perplexed me. God is all knowing, seeing the past, present and future. So why was he disappointed by humanity? Didn't he know when he created the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve that things would turn out badly? Later on, he was going to wipe out all of humanity with a flood, but generously decided to let faithful Noah and his family live. Thousands of years later, it's as if the "wicked" were never destroyed. Didn't God see that even saving Noah would end up in disappointment? Some people say that free will is a gift of God, and that Adam and Eve misused it. Well why would God give humans free will only to punish them for not using it the way he wants them to? And again, could he not fortell how humanity would use free will?

Also, why would God even put us on this Earth if the true goal is to get to Heaven? Why not just create us as perfect beings straight into Heaven?
What about Hell? What kind of loving forgiving God would send his creations to an eternity of punishment and suffering for only a lifetime's worth of sins?

I have faith, but not the kind of faith most people think of. I truly believe that no matter what I do, what happens to me, what happens to others, what happens to the Earth, that everything will be OK. When I say OK, I mean it in a universal sense. If the Earth were to explode tomorrow, the universe would still exist. You and I would still exist, but not in any way we can imagine. Our matter and energy would be dispersed into space, to eventually become part of some other collective. I doubt our conscious minds (souls, if you wish) would survive the transition.

So, even though I believe we can never know what happens after death until it's our time (even then, we may "know" nothing), I have faith that whatever happens, everything will be right in the universe.

Some may say that my outlook sounds hopeless. I mean, why not become a serial killer if I really don't think there will be consequences for my soul? Well, I also think that this may be my only shot at living a sentient life on this planet, so I'd like to enjoy it and live this life to the best of my ability. I don't need the threat of Hell looming over my shoulder, nor the reward of Heaven being dangled in front of me to be a good person.

[Lace Neil Singer]

That's from Malachi 2. There are many examples of what a good guy your god isn't, available from any search page.

Rapscallion

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I'm an atheist; however, I was brought up Christian. I just don't believe in god; however, I try to live well. I just believe that when we die, we become worm McDonalds.

[Slytovhand]

You know... there's no real reason why this one big G god couldn't be a nasty piece of work, and just had his angels and the devil do a PR job for him. I mean, in reality, if you had ultimate power over the entire universe and all within it, you could pick and choose whatever you damn well wanted to... and stuff what any of those minions on planets want to think or debate. You want to give them some book with a pile of balony in it to get a few of them to worship you out of ego... go right ahead. You want them to convince them you're actually a nice guy, while having fun killing them off... go for it! (sort of reminds me of the abuse cycle, actually...)

But as for the OT (that's - original topic, not Old Testament :p), to get a question depends on 'if'...it depends on what 'heaven' is defined as, and thus what this 'God' is defined as... "IF.. G is such and such, then to get to heaven, you.....".

I was thinking the other day (as I'm wont to do...) that way back when, within the first century or 2 (or perhaps, 4) that missionaries did a lot of travelling, and they got themselves to the UK. Apparently, they managed to convert some of the druids there. This has apparently been shown that they 'saw the light' about God and JC. My thought was... sort of. The version of Christianity they were taught was quite different to the variants of Christianity alive today. Some of those variants back then included reincarnation, the Sun as the physical manifestation of God, etc.

My point on that (if I was making one....:p), was that the nature of God has gone through some changes throughout time and culture and society... the Bible has changed (and that's after the 'policiticians' got their hands on it..).

So.. I will ask a question for those who have a belief in 'god' (of whatever type)... do you think your (I'll use a more generic term) deity actively works in the world and universe now... or has all been said and done? Or are there the occasional miracles, but the rest of us are left to their own devices? (it does relate to the original thread... cos it refers to God's relationship to us.. and thus your chances of seeing those fluffy white clouds and having eternal harp lessons).


Slyt

[BlaqueKatt]

from this (http://www.torah.org) very informative site:

under "ask the Rabbi"

G’d gave the Jewish People the Torah on Mount Sinai and entered into a covenant with Abraham and his descendants. But G’d also had a plan for the other peoples of the world. They are governed by the Covenant that G’d made with Noah when Noah left the ark after the flood waters had receded.

Only Judaism makes the claim that G-d spoke to an entire nation of some three million people. If it had not happened as recorded, then it is highly improbable that an entire nation could be duped into believing, “a national revelation occurred, but every single one of your ancestors forget to tell you….”

Christianity expects people to base their faith on the veracity of a communication between G-d and a single person. This was a communication that, if it did occur, no one else heard, and is, therefore, inherently unverifiable. Ergo, believing in a religion on that basis is logically unjustifiable, and is rejected by the Jews.



and this

Non-Jews who aren’t sinners (i.e., who obey the Noahide laws) go to heaven when they die (Talmud, Sanhedrin 102b; Maimonides, Repentance 3:5). When the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 11:1) lists major sinners who have no share in the World to Come, it includes a non-Jew, Bilaam. This implies that ordinary sinners, whether Jewish or not, are subject to the same rules: temporary punishment followed by permanent reward.

these are the 7 Noahide laws

The seven laws that were given to Adam and Noah are discussed in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin). In brief, these laws are: establishing a legal system; refraining from idolatry, blasphemy, murder, robbery, adultery and incest; and not eating from an animal while it is still alive. ("Adultery and incest" counts only as one; the Hebrew word for this class of forbidden sexual relations doesn’t have a one-word translation in English.)

Pretty easy to get to heaven by jewish standards actually

[Slytovhand]

Hey BlaqueKatt... that's a cool one!!

Here's my reason really, of why I can't follow one of the monotheistic religions as they are set out in their books...

Either...

a) the universe was made about 13.5 billion years ago. There are masses of clouds of superclusters of galaxies, with almost infinite stars (and possibly planets). In all that time, and in all that place, the ONLY thing that means anything to God is what some slightly more self-aware race on a tiny little planet in some small bit of space, thinks and believes in only the last couple of thousand years ( (if you put that on a 100m timeline, our last 2000 years wouldn't even measure up to 1 millimetre),

or...

b) humans, in trying to understand or find a place in the world, create stories which place them at the top (or near the top) of the evolutionary chain. Since there are other powerful forces in the world, they make out that those forces (or one big force) has put them here for a reason, and that reason means that they are special and can do what they want... they are 'chosen'. It also means, that when things are bad, and they are persecuted, they can 'justify' (or at least, find some solace) by saying that they are those chosen ones, and that they will reap some reward by following that path (as laid out in their holy books).


Well... there's my 2c

Slyt

[Zyanya]

There is a quote I generally give to those I believe are truly faithful and trying to spread their faith (as opposed to bible-pushers).


Preach your faith every day in every place. On very special occasions, use words.

[Flyndaran]

I am one of those rare creatures, a born atheist. I just cannot understand the mental gymnastics required to force reality into some semblance of evidence for a god.
Every scientific test shows that there is no positive effect for prayer or supernatural violations of physical laws.
The idea that one's god is nice, yet imposes horrific torment for those unworthy no matter how stacked against them life's deck was is offensive to my sense of fairness.
I just wish I could live long enough for humanity to grow out of its obsession with superstitions and delusional egocentrism. My odd don't look so good.

[Slytovhand]

Every scientific test shows that there is no positive effect for prayer ...

I'd debate that point...

While obvious connections haven't been made, there are situations where 'miracles' have occured (usually health-wise) and there were prayers made... There might be some really good reasons that aren't 'God' based, but it does happen.

Besides... lack of evidence isn't proof against :D

Of course - the above proves nothing, and doesn't even mention whether heaven even exists (other than in an ice-cream freezer :D)

[Shangri-laschild]

Every scientific test shows that there is no positive effect for prayer or supernatural violations of physical laws.

When I used to be really religious, there were times when I would be freaking out about something so I would pray. Maybe there weren't any scientific results or anything, but I would feel calmer and be able to think things through a bit better. Some people get comfort from feeling like they are talking to someone who's listening and who cares. Even if there isn't any God or anything like that, in some ways, it does help people which means there is a positive effect.

[AFPheonix]

If I were more motivated, I'd go look up some study I'd heard about that measured the effect of prayer on people's healing times on stuff. They determined it was pretty much placebo, and people recovered faster if they KNEW someone was praying for them.
But hey, I'm all for people taking advantage of psychosomatic responses.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Doesn't seem to make any difference what you pray to; you could be praying to fairies, elves, your dead ancestors or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; and the psychosomatic effect would be the same, if you believed in what you were praying to. So that disproves the existance of god rather than proves it. ;)

[BlaqueKatt]

When I used to be really religious, there were times when I would be freaking out about something so I would pray. Maybe there weren't any scientific results or anything, but I would feel calmer and be able to think things through a bit better. Some people get comfort from feeling like they are talking to someone who's listening and who cares. Even if there isn't any God or anything like that, in some ways, it does help people which means there is a positive effect.



I get the same "calming effect" from meditation(I'm a Buddhist)-and I know way too many people that "put their problems in God's hands" rather than take action themselves. As a matter of fact that is the reason my last husband left me. His mother told him she prayed and God told him to leave me as I was a Godless heathan and our son was autistic as "punishment"-she told him if he left me our son would be fine-well he's still autistic but she "has faith" that her prayers will be answered and he'll be cured of his autism by God.


Definition of an Atheist-
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist knows that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find within himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist knows that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment."

An Atheist seeks to know himself then and his fellow rather than to know a god. An Atheist understands that a hospital must be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand, love and accept all of mankind. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god, channel action into prayer, or hope for an ends to our troubles in a hereafter. He knows that we are not only our brother's keepers - but keepers of our lives foremost, that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.

[Slytovhand]

I get the same "calming effect" from meditation(I'm a Buddhist)

Yeah - I have to agree with that. More specifically, when you meditate (and/or enter a prayerful state), you enter an 'alpha' level of brain waves - or deeper ones... which is what 'relaxation' is all about. If you get deeper, then you start attuning more to other states of consciousness (for whatever that may mean for each individual - it may even mean 'connecting with God' if that's your cup of tea).

That state also enhances healing in the body, and is where we go when we sleep (sleep is a good cure :D) - so maybe it isn't as much of a placebo as thought...(although, how that's going to explain someoneelse's healing, is a different matter).


-and I know way too many people that "put their problems in God's hands" rather than take action themselves. As a matter of fact that is the reason my last husband left me. His mother told him she prayed and God told him to leave me as I was a Godless heathan and our son was autistic as "punishment"-she told him if he left me our son would be fine-well he's still autistic but she "has faith" that her prayers will be answered and he'll be cured of his autism by God.

Growly growl growl... invite her over, put a knife in her hand.. and then conveniently forget you did...:p

I gotta have a mass of hate to people who use their religion to persecute others, or try to blame such events on 'God's punishment for your evil'...

People need to take responsibility for all their own stuff - let's face it, if 'he' is up there, then he's going to look at just how responsible you were down here anyway...


I won't go where you did at the end there, BK, mostly cos it doesn't just apply to atheists (and may not be true for all anyway). As a pagan, I live my life in a way similar to what you've just said - but I also 'believe' in other stuff that falls into the theistic category. I don't 'rely' on them to fix my life, but use their help to get me through when I need it (if they'll give it).

Slyt

[Lace Neil Singer]

His mother told him she prayed and God told him to leave me as I was a Godless heathan and our son was autistic as "punishment"-she told him if he left me our son would be fine-well he's still autistic but she "has faith" that her prayers will be answered and he'll be cured of his autism by God.

She sounds like the mother in law from hell to me, pardon the pun. XD

Wonder what she'd say about my Aspergers? My parents are a practicing Christian and a practicing Jew; no heathens they. XD It always makes me laugh when people who are supposedly intelligent come up with the "punishment from god" excuse; you'd think that kind of attitude had been safely left in the middle ages. :rolleyes:

[AFPheonix]

Doesn't seem to make any difference what you pray to; you could be praying to fairies, elves, your dead ancestors or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; and the psychosomatic effect would be the same, if you believed in what you were praying to. So that disproves the existance of god rather than proves it. ;)

I don't suspect that it really did matter, perhaps just the fact that someone cared enough about the patient to try and intercede with some higher being was enough to help them think that they were indeed getting better. But hey, it was a measurable response, and it proved the benefit that people think prayer gives. I don't think it was attempting to prove the existence of God.

[protege]

I get the same "calming effect" from meditation(I'm a Buddhist)-and I know way too many people that "put their problems in God's hands" rather than take action themselves.

I'm not religious at all (former Catholic here...I say "former," because I don't follow any of it. Getting told you won't amount to anything in Catholic grade school will do that...but that's another rant entirely.) but I do meditate a bit from time to time. Of course I rant a bit in the LJ as well...simply by letting things out helps me solve problems.

Maybe God exists, maybe he doesn't. I'm not about to worry about it. I try to treat people they way I want to be treated. For example, treat me with respect, and I do the same. Attempt to screw me over, and I'll nail your ass to the wall. However, I don't do that unless provoked, and it takes quite a bit to provoke me ;)

I also don't like the idea of God punishing those who either aren't religious...or choose to follow a different path. The problem I have with that idea...is, according to most religious types, God, who not only loves us, created everything. If so, that means He also created the different path. Also, if so, why would He, if he loves us, damn to all eternity followers of the different path He created?

Somewhat along those lines, I find the whole "My God is better than your God" argument amusing. I thought most people grew out of the concept of "imaginary friends." (Not trying to insult anyone here, folks!) If prayer and belief in God (or the purple 3-headed yak, or whatever) is your thing, fine. As long as you don't force it on me, I don't have a problem with it. Unless you start spouting off that I'm going to hell, that is :p

But, if you *really* want an interesting situation...some of you know that my ex-girlfriend was religious. How we got along, I'll never know. Seriously--we never got into any religious arguments. I simply told her why I felt like I did, and she accepted it. I did the same with her beliefs.

[Slytovhand]

or the purple 3-headed yak, or whatever

HEY!! Watch what you say about my God! He's very.... sensitive...


:D

But ... more seriously (like you can get more serious that protecting the holiness, Llama High Lord, the Great Purple 3-headed Yak, Master of all infinity... and wool.. oh - and cheese too...)...

I also don't like the idea of God punishing those who either aren't religious
It wouldn't really matter if you like the idea or not. God, if such an entity exists, will be god, and will do whatever he/she/it/they chooses. Our attitude towards said deity is completely irrelevant...Why, also, is fairly irrelevant. If that's the way things are, then that's the way things are...


Slyt

[Lace Neil Singer]

I know this is probably irrelevant, but there's a bit in the C S Lewis book, The Last Battle, when Aslan says to a Calorman soldier who says that he never believed in Aslan, but served Tash, that everything good that the soldier did in the name of Tash went to Aslan, just as every bad thing done in the name of Aslan would go to Tash. Could well be the same as with god, or Buddha, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the purple 3-headed yak. XD

[Seshat]

Maybe God does have a special sort of provision for those who never got to hear the word, but at the same time followed the basic principles that make a Christian favorable in God's eyes, I'll try and find out, and see if there's something in the Bible that indicates it.

The parable of the Good Samaritan is very specific: the Samaritan, despite not being Jewish (or Christian) was the one who behaved in good ways, and was the one Jesus would reward (had it been an actuality, not a parable).

Also, John 3:19-21. "This is how the judgement works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil. Anyone who does evil things hates the light and will not come to the light, because he does not want his evil deeds shown up. But whoever does what is true comes to the light in order that the light may show that what he did was in obedience to God."

I accept that because of the final phrase ('in order that .... obedience to God') you may well interpret the verses differently from me. But I see those verses as saying that the judgement seeks those people whose deeds were good, not evil - that it separates people based on their deeds; rather than on their faith.

Some may say that my outlook sounds hopeless. I mean, why not become a serial killer if I really don't think there will be consequences for my soul?
<snip>
I don't need the threat of Hell looming over my shoulder, nor the reward of Heaven being dangled in front of me to be a good person.

Someone once said - quite possibly someone here - that Atheists have the potential to be the most moral people there are.

Because those Atheists who are good people, are good simply because they choose to be. They do not desire the reward of Heaven, nor fear the punishment of Hell; they just want to be good people.

I know this is probably irrelevant, but there's a bit in the C S Lewis book, The Last Battle, when Aslan says to a Calorman soldier who says that he never believed in Aslan, but served Tash, that everything good that the soldier did in the name of Tash went to Aslan, just as every bad thing done in the name of Aslan would go to Tash. Could well be the same as with god, or Buddha, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the purple 3-headed yak. XD

Evil done in the name of Good remains Evil.
Good done in the name of Evil remains Good.

I'm pretty sure I got that from C.S. Lewis. If not, I probably got it from some author who had read Narnia.

[BlaqueKatt]

Someone once said - quite possibly someone here - that Atheists have the potential to be the most moral people there are.

Because those Atheists who are good people, are good simply because they choose to be. They do not desire the reward of Heaven, nor fear the punishment of Hell; they just want to be good people.


That would be me-the Atheist/Buddhist-the two actually go together pretty well-as Buddhism is more of a belief system than a religion in all actuality, as it doesn't fit definition of religion-and the Buddha himself said nothing was to be taken as doctrine and be ready to abandon your beliefs in the face of a superior argument.

I was going to add something else-but I think it deserves it's won thread...sooo exit stage left.....

[kamn]

As an anwser to the OP:

WHY would I want to go to Heaven? Or Hell? Both have the "all eternity" clause in them (they shall suffer for all eternity/they shall rejoice by His side for all of time), so I would immediately choose not to go there.




I grow bored easly, and in a thousand years or so, I would be bored of the afterlife, I think.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Yeah; all that rejoicing would really take it out of you. XD