Fashion and size

[Rapscallion]

Fashion is an odd creature. It's ever-changing, mostly in order to sell more gear the next year. However, let's face it, I'm a fat bastard. I'm nearly nineteen and a half stones, which is somewhere between 270 and 280 pounds, about 120Kg. The word morbidly obese could be used, but although I do carry a fair amount of excess bodyweight, I am able to shift myself around. It's telling on my joints from time to time, and very much telling on my belt. I don't have a medical reason for my obesity - it's me who eats too much.With that out of the way, should I be able to wander into the local fashion store and buy some of the latest fashions if they cater to my size? Generally speaking, unless you are a toned metrosexual (for the chaps) or twig-thin/anorexic (for the ladies), there's not going to be much (if anything) in my size.Should these fashions be made in a size for people of my size? The models advertising them certainly aren't in that weight range. The lords of fashion certainly don't appear to think that I should wear their gear.Why is that? Is it because I wouldn't look good in something designed with a twenty-inch waist in mind? Is it just because they don't want anyone heavy wearing their gear? At the start of the craze whereby young women wore something that exposed their midriffs (even if they turned blue in the cold), I saw a woman with a pot belly (not pregnant - not the way that was jiggling) hanging out of her clothing - it was awful. Am I wrong to think this? I usually have no time for fashion, but I like to think I know what doesn't look even slightly comfortable/acceptable.If these things look ridiculous on someone who is far heftier than normal, should I be allowed to say so? I'm overweight and I remain covered up at all times, mostly because I know that I don't look good with large amounts of flesh visible - should I be able to show skin without people being grossed out if I so desire?Rapscallion

[Boozy]

...should I be able to show skin without people being grossed out if I so desire?

Overweight people should be able to show as much skin as thin people - which is to say, they should wear what they are comfortable with as long as they aren't exposing parts considered obscene.

But they can't necessarily do it without other people being grossed out. Unfortunately, we have no control over what other people are thinking or feeling.

An overweight person might feel self-conscious at the beach in a bathing suit, but still choose to wear one because otherwise they can't enjoy the beach. And frankly, if the sight of an overweight individual in a swimsuit is so offensive to someone, they shouldn't go to public beaches.

Like most people, I've seen large women wearing skimpy clothes. I can't say it offends me. After all, I can always choose to avert my eyes.

I'm no more offended by that sight than I am by the sight of women dressed to the nines, hair and makeup perfect - and wearing those Croc shoes in a garish colour. Its not offensive to me - I just can't help but wonder what they were thinking. Its just not a good look.

[Rubystars]

I'm overweight and I remain covered up at all times, mostly because I know that I don't look good with large amounts of flesh visible - should I be able to show skin without people being grossed out if I so desire?Rapscallion

I'm overweight too, and I have the sense to cover up.

What fashion designers should be doing, is designing more fashionable clothing for the larger people.

While I don't believe any large person looks good showing off their midriff, there may be fashions that complement or help to slim a larger person's looks.

One of the things that bothers me is that many shirts in the plus size section have V-neck or low necklines, and being a modest person I don't like those. I don't want to go to college or work showing cleavage.

[Seshat]

Wow. If people thought I ranted in other topics, better hang on to your hats! I'll try to keep this calm. ;)

I sew. Why do I sew? Partly because I can. Partly because I'm broad-shouldered, wide-hipped, hourglass figure and significantly bust-heavy. However, sewing means I have some knowledge of garment making.

Clothes hang from the shoulders. Lower-body only garments hang from the waist.

The simplest garment (short of a sarong or a sari) is a simple shift dress. Fold a length of fabric over, sew up to the armholes, cut a neckline. Add trim and edge treatments and you're done. The problem is that something that simple only looks as it's designed on people with no curves.

Body shapes with additional curves require thought and effort from the designer. The bust adds a curve, a belly does, wide hips definitely do. Strong thighs and upper arms do.

Additional curves also mean that garments can't be cut in straight lines - not if the designer wants them to look any good. Laying curvey pattern pieces out on the fabric is more difficult (than laying straight pieces), and more of the fabric is wasted in offcuts.

Larger sizes also can't be laid out with the front and back on the same width of fabric, causing more yardage to be used. (This is one reason sizes tend to stop where they do, and why plus-sized stuff is more expensive. Of course, wider looms as standard would reduce this problem.)

Anyway, the point of all this is: fashion caters to people without curves because it's easy and cheap. Curvey people are harder and more expensive to dress.


Anyway, that's the reason. Just because I know the reason, though, doesn't mean I like it. I don't! What's the point of an industry that doesn't cater to real people? It's sheer laziness and looking at short-term gain.

Of course, the next thing the 'fashion designers' do is try to make the same garments for curvey women as they do for straight - and that's doomed to failure.

A straight-up-and-down female body type ('rectangle') looks good in clothing designed to hang from the shoulders and waist. An hourglass either buys for her waist, and her shoulders and hips pull it out of alignment, or buys for her shoulders and hips, and her waist is lost. Males have the same sort of variation in body type.

It's good that there are plus sized stores now, but what's really needed is stores which carry garments for different shapes - like some jeans stores do.

I'd also like to see clothing stores have sizes in actual centimetres or inches. Instead of 'sizes' that don't mean anything, I want them to have 'to fit waist Xcm' or 'to fit underbust/chest Y inches'.

And I'd REALLY love garments where bust size makes a difference to come in variations for different busts!


Finally, to answer Raps' original question: there is no valid reason (none that I see as valid, anyway) for anyone to be unable to find clothing which suits them and is comfortable.

[Boozy]

Anyway, the point of all this is: fashion caters to people without curves because it's easy and cheap. Curvey people are harder and more expensive to dress.

I had never thought of this before. Its fascinating to think about, really.

Its probably cheaper for the fashion industry to use marketing to promote thin bodies than it is to make more complicated clothes.

[LizaMarie]

I had never thought of this before. Its fascinating to think about, really.

Its probably cheaper for the fashion industry to use marketing to promote thin bodies than it is to make more complicated clothes.

Isn't it bizarre and somewhat disturbing to think that it's easier to convince an entire society that being skeletal is something to aspire to than it is to just make clothing suited to a variety of shapes? The thought makes me shiver, and not in a good way.

[AFPheonix]

Although considering so many of us in 1st world countries are getting to be size 12 or larger, you'd think that more entrepreneurial souls would be getting larger clothes out on the market, despite the cost.

My main problem with clothing is leg length. I'm 5'2", and I have a hard time finding pants that fit me well through the hips and thigh and are also not so long I'm stepping on them. I'm just a little too tall for petite sizes, those end up looking like high-waters on me. Somewhere in the middle would be nice.
I guess that's why I like more western style jeans. They look really modern these days, and lines like 20x and Aria give you many options in rise, length, cut, fit, and size.

[Rapscallion]

Finally, to answer Raps' original question: there is no valid reason (none that I see as valid, anyway) for anyone to be unable to find clothing which suits them and is comfortable.

That's one of the questions. However fashion works, it sells itself on image and what looks 'right', especially on a thinner figure. This has been ingrained on the minds of the populace. I'm very overweight - how about the kinds of fashion available and that should be perpetrated?

To take an extreme example, you know those old Victorian bathing costumes? Were I go swimming, should I wear something along those lines, a pair of speedos, or perhaps what I think reasonable - something akin to a pair of shorts?

Granted, speedos look good on nobody except the physically perfect, but if I wore them, would it be wrong of others to comment that I looked bad in them, perhaps even laughable? If I have the freedom to wear what I want, don't others have the freedom to comment about it? Do I have immunity from comments if I wore, for example, a skimpy kilt that gave away too much flesh?

Whose right is paramount? Mine to wear whatever I wish no matter the reactions I get, or someone else's to comment?

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

Granted, speedos look good on nobody except the physically perfect, but if I wore them, would it be wrong of others to comment that I looked bad in them, perhaps even laughable? If I have the freedom to wear what I want, don't others have the freedom to comment about it?

Its not about rights or freedoms, exactly. Its about what's polite.

There's nothing inherently rude about a fat guy in a Speedo. It might be unpleasant for most people to look at, but I wouldn't consider it impolite. The speedo guy isn't infringing on anyone else's ability to have a good time. There's no reason why we couldn't just look away.

But it would be incredibly rude for a total stranger to walk up to said fat guy in a speedo and say something mean about it. Or to point and laugh. Because that would probably infringe on speedo guy's ability to have a good time. Previous to that, he was under the terribly misguided but harmless impression that he looked fine. Now he might be self-conscious.

And making otherwise comfortable people uncomfortable is rude.

And hell, its just plain mean.

[rahmota]

Personally a person should wear as much or as little in whatever style they find comfortable. I'll agree that being outside the off the rack ideals of the fashion designers make things interesting and difficult. But like was mentioned it saves them money and makes it a lot easier on the sweat shop employees....



And like Boozy said it would be downright mean to laugh and point and stare or make shamu jokes. Definately.

[Seshat]

My main problem with clothing is leg length. I'm 5'2", and I have a hard time finding pants that fit me well through the hips and thigh and are also not so long I'm stepping on them. I'm just a little too tall for petite sizes, those end up looking like high-waters on me. Somewhere in the middle would be nice.


For those who are willing to learn to alter their own clothes to suit them better: hem alterations are the easiest.

Hem alterations (on skirts, pants or tops) require: a friend to pin the hem at the length that looks right, some pins, a sewing needle, thread the colour of the garment fabric, and the ability to sew a hem and to sew a fray-stopping stitch.

Hem alteration on skirts and dresses also needs a measuring stick - basically, the friend pins the first bit of the garment, then while you stand upright, marks on the stick where the pinned bit falls. She then pins the rest of the garment to that mark.

You can probably get a 'how to hem' and maybe 'how to alter garments' book at your nearest sewing store. If not, there are lots on Amazon. Or PM me and ask me to post it (and suggest a place other than this thread, I've derailed it enough already.)


And now I end this thread derail. ;)

[AFPheonix]

Oh, I've hemmed pants before, but I just don't have the patience to make it look nice ;)

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I agree with Boozy, it's not about rights, it's about what is considered polite, and I have every right to simply look away if someone with lots of excess body mass is wearing something skimpy. It's that simple.

Before the 20th century, fat was looked at differently. A 'fat' baby was considered a healthy baby. Extreme thinness was often a mark of disease. Look at Ruben's paintings, or pics of Lillian Russell---that was the idea of health and beauty then. Now that we live with modern medicine, we don't have this preoccupation with excess body mass equaling health, and western culture has changed the ideals because of this. Now, thin means health, and this is reflected---and exaggerated---in fashion.

[rahmota]

AFP:Oh, I've hemmed pants before, but I just don't have the patience to make it look nice
Then my suggestion is to make friends with someone who does..:) One of the joys of my wife is she is a wizard with a needle and thread. Being of a non-off the shelf body style herself she has to be as she has some issues with looking nice in the current styles herself.

fortunately I'm an off thes helf kinda guy. 90% of the clothes I can go into the store grab and go. *shrug* not meaning to brag.

TPG: Exactly. Fashion and body image has changed drastically over the last hundred years especially. Reubens (one of my favorite old painters) painted women with curves that where considered the epitome of the feminine form. Now sad stick figures like paris hilton and nicole richie are considered beuatiful while a woman like kirstie ally (just to pull one of the top of my head) is made fun of and called a cow. Not cool. (BTW in case you cant tell I am fond of the reubenesqe form.) Modern medical science has been a big factor in this true. but the most up to date medical info they used to have a bit of chubbyness was not unhealthy. But still a bit of body fat is not bad. And the fashionistas take the idea that thin is fit to a lot further than they should. And that is a major problem.

[powerboy]

I know how you feel, it is hard for me to find clothes. And when I do, they are in the wrong size.


They should sell more now-a-days fashion for us bigger people.

[Seshat]

They should sell more now-a-days fashion for us bigger people.

Most modern fashions aren't cut to look right on curvey people, especially curvey women. The hourglass shape looks at its best in a princess line cut, or at least a piece that's been darted to show off our waist. The 'pear' shape (the most common shape for women) looks best in pants and skirts that have been darted to show the waist, but can usually wear modern tops.

For my husband, we buy his tops to suit his shoulders and neck, and then whip out the sewing machine and resew the side seams to suit his shape. (Inverted triangle, for those who care.) His pants are okay off the rack, as long as we can get pants that are long enough.


The good bit is that you can make the body of the garment to suit your shape, then change the necklines, collars, sleeves and trim to suit current fashion. Non-sewers will (generally) perceive it as current fashion, and sewers are probably doing it themselves. However, the ease with which you can make garments that suit anyone and are still fashionable is the reason I get so annoyed at the clothing industry.

[Rapscallion]

Let's get down to it - should someone wearing a pink camo miniskirt ensemble in 2XL face ridicule?

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

Let's get down to it - should someone wearing a pink camo miniskirt ensemble in 2XL face ridicule?

Rapscallion

Yes - for the pink camo. :p

[Boozy]

A pink camo miniskirt ensemble is (supposedly) considered "sexy".

A size 2XL body is considered "unsexy" by our cultural standards.

Put sexy clothing on an unsexy body and you have a classic funny. These are things you wouldn't expect to see together. Humour is that delightful surprise you get when two opposites come together.

With that said, I don't particularly find it funny. I like my humour a little more sophisticated. I just find it sort of sad.

Anyone who laughs in the face of a large person wearing this kind of outfit is a rude boor.

The flip side is that anyone wearing this outfit in size 2XL is going to have to realize that people will laugh behind their backs. If they don't realize that, they need a crash course in reality.

[Seshat]

The flip side is that anyone wearing this outfit in size 2XL is going to have to realize that people will laugh behind their backs. If they don't realize that, they need a crash course in reality.

The sad thing is that 2XL is a natural healthy body size. It's very rare - right on the thin end of the bell curve - but for a large-boned, very muscular person it's quite possible.

The problem is that there are also people whose natural healthy body size is M, who take 2XL because of excess adipose tissue. I just wish more of society would focus on healthiness, not absolute size.

[NightAngel]

I don't care how skinny you are- Pink Camo is stupid and ugly.

Now, I've seen the pic of this particular ensemble and if it WASN'T camo- say basic black- it would completely and utterly depend on the woman wearing it. I've seen some women wear outfits like that and thought they looked nice and other's not so much.

Everybody's body is different/unique. Some people can pull off an outfit- some can't.
I'm a size 4 and I can tell you that they are some "fashions" that I absolutely cannot pull off because of my body stucture. If I tried I'd look like an idiot and I know it. Some people seem to have on their rose colored glasses when they look in the mirror though.

On that note I will say that I was just given a regular colored (green) camo miniskirt with skulls and airbourne patches on it. The style looks okay on me but I'm just not so sure about the rest... maybe if I reversed time and could be 16 again? LOL
I'll probably wear it to the beach over my swimsuit.

[Luna]

I think people should wear whatever makes them happy. I can't say I won't laugh at the white trash stalker customer at music store hell if I ever saw him again though. He came into the store with a dirty white cut off right below his nipples t-shirt, and his hairy belly said JELLY BELLY tattooed on it in huge Gothic lettering.

No, I am not kidding.

I am 4"11". Petite clothing starts at 5'4" and under. What the hell do I do with the other 5 inches of fabric. Some things just look terrible hemmed. *Le sigh*
I am also very curvy. even at my best weight, I was 125 lbs and 3% body fat. I was hardcore lean, mean muscle and could bench press my now hubby. At the time, the doctor I was seeing told me that I was obese and should be no more than 90-100 lbs. I asked him if he wanted to arm wrestle me. He declined after he saw my arm muscles. Fucking idiot.

Yes, I've gained 50 lbs since then, but I'm still only a size 14/16. It's really hard to find sexy or just plain nice clothes for larger sizes. They're all cut with low v-neck lines (which on a short person goes down to my belly button!) and made to look like I'm wearing a cape with a neck hole. If you want well-made real people clothes, it'll cost you a fortune.

We should start a revolution!

[Seshat]

I am also very curvy. even at my best weight, I was 125 lbs and 3% body fat. I was hardcore lean, mean muscle and could bench press my now hubby. At the time, the doctor I was seeing told me that I was obese and should be no more than 90-100 lbs. I asked him if he wanted to arm wrestle me. He declined after he saw my arm muscles. Fucking idiot.

YES!!! You must be seeing the same doctor(s) I see all the bloody time! :mad:

[McDreidel09]

Clothes are extremely hard for me to find. I wear between size 11 and 10 in pants. I have broad shoulders, so medium shirts are just at the beltline, but large shirts are too baggy. I have a flat upperstomach, but have a small pooch on my lower belly. I also have arm muscles. I'm also 5'9", so length in pants suck because girls around my age are usually much shorter.

So I just wear size 11 pants and medium sized shirts. I feel better about my body since losing weight, so why not dress with confidence, along with comfort? It doesn't look that bad on me and I don't feel squished in my clothes. :)

[freeatlast]

I am 5'3" and overweight. My problem is that I don't have curves. My waist and hips are about the same size. Most plus size pants go way out at the hips, so if I buy pants that fit my waist they stick way out around my hips. So every pair of pants I buy have to be shortened and tailored at the hips. Economically, it sucks because my alterations person charges $10 a pair to shorten and alter pants. Her price is really reasonable compared to many other alteration shops, but it still adds $10 to the price of every pair of pants I buy. It's just that they assume that every woman who wears larger sized pants has big hips. Under all the fat, I am really small boned and my hips are very narrow.

[AdminAssistant]

I wear...a 16-18, depending on the store. So, I'm in that strange inbetween place, where I can buy some stuff at 'regular' stores (like Gap and Old Navy) and some stuff that's 'plus-sized' (Lane Bryant). It's really hard to find flattering stuff, because I have a bit of a gut, but I don't have OMGHUGE boobs. Therefore, a lot of 1X tops are rather, um, saggy in places. Not pretty at all. Maurice's now offers plus-sizes, and since those are targeted toward younger shoppers, I have decent luck finding clothes there. They've actually got some pretty cute stuff that does look good on curvy ladies. Which I like because Lane Bryant..well...sometimes, it's just...EW.

Back to the point, I say where whatever you want. As long as all the proper bits are covered, who cares? If someone is wearing something tacky, I may mentally comment - but that could easily be a very thin person wearing a miniskirt and Uggs. And I would never say anything to them. That's just rude.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I'm 5ft 9in, and an hourglass shape; ie, DD boobs and huge hips. I often have to go a size up from what I really am in order to find a dress that hangs well on me and fits my bust and hips. I tend to buy from a variety of different shops; high street, specialist, charity shops. I often buy gothic style clothes; they seem to be fitted better than high street clothes for some reason.

As far as I'm concerned, showing loads of flesh looks tacky on anyone, big or small. It's possible to look sexy without looking trashy. And male or female, showing off a huge gut is not a good look; neither is showing off a builder's cleavage, male or female; thin or fat. The trick is to wear clothes that flatter you; not just wear what's in fashion. You could be wearing top to toe fashion and still look awful; it's style that counts. A fat girl in leggings and vest might look awful; the same girl wearing a long, flowing shirt over well cut jeans looks good.

[IDrinkaRum]

I'm 5'3" and I weigh 270 pounds. I wear a 3X or a 22/24. I buy my pants at Wal-Mart. I only buy pants/jeans that have an elastic waist. I wear a petite size pants. J. C. Penney's has a nice brand of pants (Donkenney) that are good pants with an elastic waist and look professional that I would wear them to my administrative assistant jobs.

The reason for the elastic waist for pants is because no matter how fat (or skinny) I am, I this annoying problem: my waist is smaller than my hips. I have bought 2 pairs of denim skorts. I bought them in size 24 (no elastic waist, but they fit), the only problem is that because they fit over my hips (and butt) they are too big in my waist (and subsequently, I have to buy a belt because the waist falls down).

I hate being fat (Lane Bryant has granny looking clothing, and Torrid has the hip-for-the-non-mothers crowd). *le sigh*

[iradney]

I personally think that men shouldn't wear speedos, regardless of their body type! Board shorts look so much nicer.

Even before I gained all my weight, I would struggle to find clothes. Having broad hips and long legs doesn't help much - if it's long enough, the waist is HUGE. If the waist is right, the legs are too short :(

[Norton]

I'm 5' 10", and weigh 275 lbs. However, I carry my weight well. I'm built rather like the models for Torrid.

Torrid has the hip-for-the-non-mothers crowd

I'm not sure I understand that. Do you mean the clothing is inappropriate for mothers, or that it's not flattering? I personally see no problem with a mother dressing goth-y (though Torrid seems to have more "generic" clothing in stock than "hip" clothing now).

I hate bra shopping. Most of the bras in my size come in three colors: white, black, and beige. They usually look like something my grandma would wear.
Also, these ugly things are usually two or three times the price of bras in small sizes.

I have the same problem as IDrinkaRum and Iradney with pants. If I buy pants to comfortably fit my hips, they're too big for my waist and keep slipping down. Almost all of my pants are too short for me (including the ones I've bought from Torrid - which I would expect to actually be tailored for big girls). I finally found a nice long pair on eBay, but I still have to wear a belt.

By the way, I won't always wear a belt, because frankly I hate them. So, people probably see a lot of my lower back, since I'm often hiking my pants up. Also when I sit, my shirt tends to go up while the pants go down. I've never had someone complain about seeing my back fat, stretchmarks, or trampstamp. If someone does decide to complain or make fun of me, they'll be met with an apathetic shrug.

If the way I look offends you, then stop looking at me.

I used to be very self-conscious about my size. I wore long pants or skirts in the hottest weather, and never showed my arms above my elbows. Never went swimming without a long heavy T-shirt and knee-length shorts. At some point, I just stopped caring what people thought of me and decided to be comfortable.

[IDrinkaRum]

Norton - as my mother so lovingly says, when I'm dressed in my Torrid clothing, I look like a "hooker". :p Not sure if I should be offended or not, but there it is.

I hate belts too. They're either too small or too big. However, the waist goes down in the front and my shirt rides up so you can see about 2 inches of my tummy. Fortunately at work, I wear a blue apron so I can hide the tummy show for 5 hours. However, my tummy does get cold during my work hours. :D

I love Torrid. But as I said earlier in my post, my mom says I look like a hooker, and my younger sister who is also a mother would "never wear anything from Torrid in her entire life". *le sigh* I shouldn't let my mom & sister dictate my fashion sense, but since I don't have any ... I like to get advice. XD But yeah ... if my mom had her way, I'd wear nothing but pastels & with my really white skin, that's not a good thing.

However, why do clothing manufacturers always use the really loud obnoxious, no-one-in-their-right-mind would ever wear the fabric for the larger women and the nicer colors & fabric for the skinny ones?

[AdminAssistant]

I'd wear nothing but pastels & with my really white skin, that's not a good thing.

That depends on more than how dark/pale your skin is. I am very very pale, but my skin has a lot of pink undertones. I wear pastels all the time. However, bold colors - like bright red - look terrible on me.

There isn't a Torrid very close to where I am now, and honestly, it's just too expensive.

[IDrinkaRum]

AdminAssistant - I'm more of a Winter/Fall color person. I look great in Jeweled colors. (Royal Purple, Dark Green, Burgundy, Black, etc.) Pastels make me look all washed out.

As for Torrid - I buy most of the clothes I have from there when it's on discount. (Really deep discount). Though I do buy their flip flops even if they're not on sale.

[crazylegs]

I'm 6'8.

That in itself creates issues while trying to find clothes that fit.

I'm also (technically) underweight, at a BMI that can be under 18.5.

Clothes are virtually impossible to find, if I want a pair of trousers I have to be prepared to spend an entire day looking for them (Leg 38, waist 34) and make sure I'm mentally prepared for a fail when I try. Shirts aren't much easier to find either, M&S has a range of 'Two Inch Longer' however all the shirts they have are vertical stripes. Whats the pattern that makes you look longer and thinner? That's right you guessed it, vertical stripes.

Jumpers all end well above my wrist and gloves are another impossibility with hands my shape (very long, thin fingers).

Raincoats are incredibly difficult to find, the only way I can find one to wear is to purchase a large or extra large, this means that the shoulders fall sufficiently far down my arms to create a little more sleeve length so that my wrists aren't exposed.

All clothes manufacturers assume that if you're tall you must also be fat, including the local <Big & Tall> store, who then charge you for their poorly tailored clothes to be adapted to fit.

Most of my wardrobe is years old (5-6) as I detest shopping for clothes, I can see plenty I like but none that fits, or what fits but looks truely awful on me (straight cut jeans, aforementioned shirts etc).

I have found a make of jeans that fits but I now only have two casual trousers, a pair of jeans and a pair of brown trousers, there is nothing else that fits and suits.