Are we (as a species) becoming too stupid to survive on our own?

[Mr Slugger]

I think this is the best way to describe the debate. I was trying to not turn it into a rant about stupid people. :p

Anyway in another thread a while ago I mentioned how my daughter gets to use a homework helper for math class, which is just a calculator. And how we never could never use them until high school. Which honestly to me means we're not teaching kids to do math. And on top of that we have kids that come in to buy things and they can't do math, either with how much they give me or grabbing too much stuff. On top of that even some adults are clueless on math. But that's not the only area. I can't even count how many times a day I get people that come in and say. "Give me ummmmmmmmmmm well whatever I usually smoke/drink, etc." And if I didn't remember myself we'd be sitting there probably until that person gave up and just picked something. Which to me shows me that there's a big issue when people can't even remember what they like.

And in the age of electronics, with blackberries that you can have remind you that you need to take a crap. And information on the internet that you get with a mouse click it kind of makes me wonder if we're starting to get to a point where if all that went away tomorrow would we survive? And if we did what about 30 years from now when we're even more into tech.

[blas87]

The only thing I can really offer to the thread at this point is the way people behave when they have to go just an hour or so without their phones (at work mostly, but wherever you aren't supposed to have them). People get all bent out of shape and are so attached to their stupid phones that it's unbelievable.

People are so needy and dependent on things now that they never were even 10 years ago. It's like without technology and stuff to make life more convenient, everyone is running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

[jackfaire]

My classes weren't allowed to use calculators in math. This didn't make any of my fellow students better at doing math.

That being said the use of calculators does mean people uninterested in math will not bother to work as hard to learn it.

Doesn't mean they are getting stupider. Case in point 10 years ago if I wanted to know a phone number I had to memorize every single one and if I forgot it woe is me. Chances are I wasn't always carrying a rolodex or a address book on me.

Now I can look in my cell phone for the number. I am not stupider. I am smarter. Utilizing new methods and new techniques will actually make people smarter. By having access to the internet I have a resource of information previously unheard of.

I can now collaborate with people all over the world in my efforts to better understand the human condition.

As for the forgetting what type of thing it was that you always get. That happens to some of the smartest people I know. I don't see it as a sign of stupidity.

I think humans are getting smarter.


http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Bad-Good-You-Actually/dp/1573223077

I recommend this book. Says it much better than I ever could.

[Mr Slugger]

Doesn't mean they are getting stupider. Case in point 10 years ago if I wanted to know a phone number I had to memorize every single one and if I forgot it woe is me. Chances are I wasn't always carrying a rolodex or a address book on me.

Now I can look in my cell phone for the number. I am not stupider. I am smarter. Utilizing new methods and new techniques will actually make people smarter. By having access to the internet I have a resource of information previously unheard of.

But see a device for information that you have isn't a problem to me honestly, because as you said years ago you would have had a phone number book, or something like that. So to some extent that's just a transfer to another data source. A better example of what I'm saying is like a GPS now years ago you would have maps. But there's been a number of stories in the news of people driving into walls, train tracks, etc. because the GPS told them to do that. And in fact now GPSs have a legal notice when they power up because of that. Now common sense I think would tell you not to turn into a wall, but then maybe some don't have it.

[Lace Neil Singer]

People may be getting technologically smarter, but common sense in on the decrease; in fact, it should be renamed as "rare sense" as so few people seem to have it. -.- Honestly, if some people had to do without their phones for a week, I can see a few nervous breakdowns developing. Some people are so rude, they have it clamped to their ear while I'm serving them and I end up having to shout to make myself heard.

[Nyoibo]

If all technology were to shut down the majority of people would not be able to survive, but it's been like that for decades, most people don't have the necesary skill set to survive without electricity, supermarkets, running water, that sort of thing.

[jackfaire]

These people used to fall off cliffs, eaten by mountain lions etc.

We as a species are getting smarter. Stupid people are still stupid. And lack of common sense is not hereditary.

The difference is that we protect our stupid people now. Driving into a wall because the GPS said to has simply replaced the answer of, "I don't know" as to why they did that.

There always have been stupid people and always will be stupid people.

With the increase of people comes the increase of exposure to stupidity.

It happens. Nothing to worry about.

[Boozy]

T
We as a species are getting smarter.

Yes, we are. There have always been people who can't do math. But look at education levels and literacy rates over the course of the last century. Or just general awareness about the world. People may not be getting more intelligent, but they are getting more knowledgeable.

Even math skills are increasing. My grandfather, for instance, was amazed at amount of calculus they were teaching in school these days. In his day, they didn't have calculators, so covering calculus comprehensively at the high schools simply wasn't done.

[crashhelmet]

In my opinion, people are getting too lazy to survive on their own. All of this technology, while making us smarter or more knowledgeable, is only making us lazier. Why do the math when you can use a calculator? Why stand up when you can use the remote? Why pour through a library when you can google it? etc etc etc

CH

[RootedPhoenix]

I think that some people are lost without technology simply because they've poured the kinds of things into their day that'd be impossible without technology. Life has just gotten faster over time, because technology allows us to do so.

I don't think that technology makes people lazier, necessarily. I think it becomes a very useful vehicle for someone to be lazy though. Some people will always be like that.

I know I can do things with a computer that would be very difficult without it, because of the limitations I have. I'd never be able to take good notes myself, or write the kind of essays I can, or complete the projects I am able to with the assistance of technology. To me, technology is the boon that allows me to communicate what I know and understand with others. Otherwise, it would be very easy for others to think I am stupid.

[Mr Slugger]

In my opinion, people are getting too lazy to survive on their own. All of this technology, while making us smarter or more knowledgeable, is only making us lazier. Why do the math when you can use a calculator? Why stand up when you can use the remote? Why pour through a library when you can google it? etc etc etc
CH
Well see my take on some of this is like for instance. On the weekends I have a couple of older computers in my basement that I experiment with. I turn them into firewalls, make ftp servers out of them, a couple are test boxes, etc. Now how alot of this is done is by going online and just finding a how do guide, and I do it. It doesn't make me smarter that I can do these things. I just means I can follow instructions. Only after I repeat the process many times will I be smart enough to do something like that on my own. But then that's what I would call an advanced skill. Using a calculator at an early age I think is kinda the same idea. If simple math is just a footnote in class, and people move on to calculators too fast how will they remember to do math?

As for the forgetting what type of thing it was that you always get. That happens to some of the smartest people I know. I don't see it as a sign of stupidity. But everyday? I know people occasionally have brain farts, but some of these people come in everyday with no clue what they want.

And again maybe not today, but in the future. I mean if there was some kinda of catastrophe tomorrow and I had to do things for myself I think I have enough basic knowledge from things that I've seem to do at least basic. I mean I could plant crops if I had to. I know the basics. Would I be a great farmer, no, but you get good through experience. But I think in an age where tech is becoming the easy look up point people aren't willing to learn even the basics. I mean hell I know someone who needs to use the GPS pretty much to get everywhere.

[Boozy]

All of this technology, while making us smarter or more knowledgeable, is only making us lazier. Why do the math when you can use a calculator? Why stand up when you can use the remote? Why pour through a library when you can google it?

Why use e-mail when you can write a letter on paper? Why use Excel when you can painstakingly draw it all out by hand?

Because we're not stupid, that's why. If there's a more efficient route, we'll take it. That human trait has vastly improved our way of life.

People aren't getting lazier any more than they are getting dumber. Look at productivity and stress levels in the post-war era. People are working more than ever before.

[jackfaire]

I mean I could plant crops if I had to. I know the basics. Would I be a great farmer, no, but you get good through experience.

I don't consider myself an idiot. I don't know anything about farming. Intellectually I know a couple of farming techniques. None of these do shite for real world applications.

I don't know how to judge soil, when to plant what crops, when to know the land is worked over.

I don't think people are stupid if they don't know how to do something that isn't something they would do in their everyday lives. I am not going to spend years preparing for, "Oh god what if it all comes crashing down"

I don't believe there was any point in recorded history where people's government's fell and they were like oh my god I forgot how to make a wheel.

It's not that people are getting stupid it's simply that more people equals more stupid people. Simple.

[Lace Neil Singer]

More like, nowadays we save stupid people from the consequences of their own stupidity.

Back in caveman days, the stupid got eaten by sabre toothed tigers and speared by wooly mammoths and no-one lifted a finger to try and save them. Nowadays, we're rescuing people from the bear cage and patching them up after. Therefore, there are more stupid people, cuz they are living to breed and teach their offspring to be stupid.

[jackfaire]

cuz they are living to breed and teach their offspring to be stupid.

Living to be stupid another day yes totally. I see plenty of smart people come from stupid people and vice versa.

[Slytovhand]

I dunno about some of these arguments.

I'm inclined to think (which is part of the point) that with the advances in technology, we're letting that technology take over too much - like thinking!

I'm relatively good at math - in my head (when it doesn't break). I can do simple math problems easily enough, but I know far to many people who 'can't' - in quotes, cos they can if they really want to! No, I'm not talking having particular and specific issues, but just in general.

People are becoming stupider, because they don't need to think as much... too many schools and tertiary education places are placing more emphasis on money, or just in passing people, than they used to. Having a degree used to really mean something - any degree - even Arts! Now, because a degree is less prestige, and they're much easier to get into, they have also been dumbed down (in some places). For instance, when I did my degree, at the first university I was at, I was getting 80% which would give me a Credit (below Distinction and High Distinction). At the second university, 80% was a First Class Honours mark... the highest they gave.

So, it's getting easier to be or remain dumb!

Look at the threads we have on such subjects... people who never have to face the consequences of their actions when they fail, 'failure' as a word is getting phased out, everyone is getting all these chances.... success now doesn't take much effort, and you get multiple chances at it anyway. Your mechanic may have scraped through on the third go, or may be absolutely brilliant - but the piece of paper will never show that like it used to! (well, for some things, at any rate - in Australia, we went from a grading system to competency based training - so instead of Very High, High etc, it went to Competent and Not Yet Competent).

[Boozy]

For instance, when I did my degree, at the first university I was at, I was getting 80% which would give me a Credit (below Distinction and High Distinction). At the second university, 80% was a First Class Honours mark... the highest they gave.

So, it's getting easier to be or remain dumb!

So you're drawing the conclusion that the entirety of humanity is getting dumber based on your experiences with the grading systems at a few universities?

I disagree with the process that led you to that conclusion.

[joe hx]

Back in caveman days, the stupid got eaten by sabre toothed tigers and speared by wooly mammoths and no-one lifted a finger to try and save them.

You remember?

Yes there are more stupid people know. But in order for them to survive, it seems that they have to rely on something... or someone... and that someone is smart people!! (yea for bad grammar)

As long as we don't start watering our crops with gatorade, I think we're safe.

[jackfaire]

As long as we don't start watering our crops with gatorade, I think we're safe.

Even then as long as we can find a working time machine we are good.

[Slytovhand]

So you're drawing the conclusion that the entirety of humanity is getting dumber based on your experiences with the grading systems at a few universities?

I disagree with the process that led you to that conclusion.

Way cool! A post with over 300 words gets reduced to a mere 50 - starting with 'For instance', and that becomes the be all and end all of my argument.....

[Lace Neil Singer]

You remember?

:rolleyes: It was a form of speech. It's only in recent times that we're making all sorts of laws and rules to save the stupid, such as warnings about bags of mixed nuts containing nuts. Back in the old days, it was survival of the fittest, now it's save the stupid.

[Boozy]

Way cool! A post with over 300 words gets reduced to a mere 50 - starting with 'For instance', and that becomes the be all and end all of my argument.....

If that's not the entirety of your argument, then I'm afraid I don't understand your argument. I didn't see any other evidence offered in your post -- only conjecture.

[XiaoTortuga]

Way cool! A post with over 300 words gets reduced to a mere 50 - starting with 'For instance', and that becomes the be all and end all of my argument.....

Since you require an in depth analysis of every aspect of your post in order to value the response, I will try to match or even exceed your 300+ words.

1. Is being able to do math in your head a sign of being smart? How much math? I know people who can do extensive and complex math problems in their heads. Are you dumb because you cannot? Maybe not. You didn't actually say anything beyond you can do simple math and people don't because they choose not to. Okay.

2. I take many issues with what you put forward in the paragraph about the educational system.
a. I do not agree that formal education has any correlation to being smart. Formal education has to do with learning style, opportunity, goals, and many other factors. Attending or not attending school has no bearing on whether you are smart or not.
b. In order to discuss the purported decline in academic standards, you have to look at the historical context of educational systems and their purpose and then compare that to what is prevalent today.
"The characteristic conviction of the school promoters was that mass schooling could be an effective instrument for instilling appropriate modes of thought and behaviour into children; in their minds, the purpose of mass schooling did not primarily involve the acquisition of academic knowledge. School systems were designed to solve a wide variety of problems ranging from crime to poverty, and from idleness to vagrancy. "
(from http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0002538, which is in agreement with what I have heard numerous scholars of formal education say.)
I would argue that to a large extent this is still the purpose of educational system, to create appropriate citizens, not to create academically brilliant individuals.
c. The historical context of higher education was racist and sexist and generally prejudicial to anyone who was not a privileged white male (and yes, my knowledge on this topic comes from North America and Europe mostly). In recognizing that all those are people are not inherently stupid, schools had to restructure how they admit students, as well as how students are taught and evaluated. Having to allow a diversity of students in the classroom creates a different environment and some times can slow down or change the academic progress of the students.
d. I feel that the comparison of two universities you personally experienced is anecdotal at best and quite insufficient to draw any conclusions.
e. The quality of education varies from institution to institution, from field to field, and from teacher to teacher. Getting 100% in an Introduction to Anthropology course is quite easier than getting 100% in Advanced Inorganic Chemistry, at least for someone with my academic strengths and weaknesses.

3. I quite agree that children are more and more being taught that they can't fail, both in schools and at home. Everyone fails eventually. Most of us many times. This has nothing to do with being smart or not, but rather with a hyper-focus on self-esteem that I feel is quite destructive, but that is another topic for another day.
A piece of paper cannot, and never has, indicated whether someone is a good mechanic, lawyer, doctor, teacher, physicist, etc. It merely indicates that you managed to get through an academic experience. Aside from someone's actually work, to get an idea of their actual competence you would have to evaluate their performance in each class, each assignment, and determine what each class was worth as far as actual ability and then look at the person's performance. Nobody wants to do that, even if they could. A piece of paper means you have the ability to go through the process and therefore may be able to complete the processes of your employment with some ability.
There have always been incompetent doctors who got through medical school. There have always been brilliant scientists who had minimal schooling.


Now a general commentary on the original topic, are people becoming too stupid to survive on their own?
People have always been too stupid to survive on their own. Communities were developed to help increase the chances of survival. People survived before fire, before stone, and later metal, weapons, and on and on. When these new technologies came around they made life easier, safer, more efficient, and so on. Do we lament the fact that we generally no longer have the ability to catch fish with our bare hands or start fires with just two stones (and of course some flammable material)? I generally don't hear that. And why should we? Nets, fishing rods, matches, lighters... none of these things are going away. But I would say we are "stupider" in that we no longer have the knowledge or skill to do those things.

However, I do look around at my fellow human beings and wonder just how anybody survives given the apparent absence of any functioning brain cells. :D