Does Atheism count as a religious viewpoint?

[Hyena Dandy]

Now, as those who are well acquainted with me know, I'm a huge supporter of the separation of Church and State. I've signed petitions to make sure that religious personalities (Reverends, churches, etc.) aren't endorsed on the sides of state-run buses. Many of my friends agree with me on this one. But recently one of my friends has been trying to get the phrase "God Probably Doesn't Exist, So Just Enjoy Yourself" on the buses.

When I explained I was against this, she said I was going AGAINST separation of church and state. But I say that I'm going for it. I won't make the argument that Atheism counts as a religion (That's a whole different can of worms) but I will say that its at least a religious VIEWPOINT. After all, its making a statement about a religious belief. The fact that its anti-religion instead of pro-religion doesn't change that. And neither does the inclusion of the phrase "Probably" in the adds. Even "Maybe" is a viewpoint on religion.

I feel separation of Church and State means that they have to be SEPARATED. Not that the state needs to be AGAINST religion.

Now, what a private bus company does and doesn't put on their buses is up to them. I'd be perfectly fine if a private company wanted to plaster their buses with religious iconography. Same with the corporate "Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays" dilemma, I think that's up to the store to say, because that's their private decision. But when the government is being represented, I don't feel that they should be making ANY statement on religion, for or against.

[Nyoibo]

God is mentioned, God is a central figure in religion, therefore it is religious.

[Rapscallion]

Define 'religious' first. For me, it means acceptance of a supernatural state of affairs as being the truth. Atheism is the unacceptance of a supernatural state of affairs. I don't consider it religious.

Put it this way, if atheism is counted as a religion, then everyone would be counted as 'religious'.

Rapscallion

[jackfaire]

Yes it does. Religious viewpoint means, "Viewpoint on religions"

No in and of itself it is not a religion. It is a viewpoint on them however. Any opinion about religion is your view point of religion.

[Hyena Dandy]

Raps:

I won't make the argument that Atheism counts as a religion (That's a whole different can of worms) but I will say that its at least a religious VIEWPOINT

I'm not saying its a religion. I'm saying giving any opinion counts against separating church and state. I feel that the government shouldn't endorse ANYTHING, religion or anti-religion.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Athiesm, while not a religion, is a religious or spiritual viewPOINT. It is a personal philosophy regarding a creator spirit. It comes up in religious discussions and context.

Therefore, if saying that God exists is a religious viewpoint and therefore has no place on the sides of state run busses, then your friend is mistaken in her belief that saying that He doesn't does have a place there.

Just because it's something she wants to do does not make it right. If her stance is that personal spiritual beliefs should not be displayed in public places, then displaying hers there is just plain hypocritical.

To the point of being over the top, it's hypocritical.

She can circulate anything she wants, nobody is going to touch this with a ten foot pole. You don't get to run whatever you want just because you pay. You have to find someone who will carry your advert. Nobody will touch that message, it would be a huge can of worms regardless of the bus owners' personal view. It is the sort of thing that would run off OTHER advertisers.


I would submit to you that your friend likes the idea of being contentious and provacative and has a bone to pick. She probably ought to grow up and concern herself more with her own affairs and not with what strangers believe.

[Rapscallion]

My bad - I read the title and went straight in.

So, atheism itself is a lack of belief in a supernatural being(s). However, there are people who describe themselves as atheists because they have very clear cut ideas about how the world is, just as there are religious people who have clear cut ideas. What about the average person in the street who doesn't particularly believe in anything, just goes about his or her business day to day, and doesn't even think about it? Such a person would be an atheist, but not have a religious viewpoint, since it would be something they hadn't really bothered with.

Am I making sense? I'm doing the overly much overtime thing right now.

Rapscallion

[machinest]

I think what you are describing is labeled as an apathist ,no clear thought on whether or not god exists and no real need to form one

[Hyena Dandy]

My bad - I read the title and went straight in.

So, atheism itself is a lack of belief in a supernatural being(s). However, there are people who describe themselves as atheists because they have very clear cut ideas about how the world is, just as there are religious people who have clear cut ideas. What about the average person in the street who doesn't particularly believe in anything, just goes about his or her business day to day, and doesn't even think about it? Such a person would be an atheist, but not have a religious viewpoint, since it would be something they hadn't really bothered with.

Am I making sense? I'm doing the overly much overtime thing right now.

Rapscallion


Yes, while that wasn't the point of the post. The point was does the statement "God probably doesn't exist, so just relax" on a bus count against separation of church and state. I was saying yes, because it endorses a viewpoint.

[Rapscallion]

I can see where you're coming from. State-run busses shouldn't really have any advertisement on at all, save for other state services. I'm thinking things like adult literacy courses etc. (Yes, I've seen this...)

The reason is that relying on advertising from the commercial sector means that even if the intentions are honourable, any approval of a scheme by the people who advertise, or award of a contract to such, is going to be regarded as suspicious. It also means that the advertising organisation is going to hold some sway over supposedly neutral parties.

Does the advertising you mention count as a religious viewpoint? In that actual format, I'd say 'yes'. I'd say that the state shouldn't allow it (even though I agree with it), but only on the same grounds I'd say they shouldn't allow any advertising on state-run busses.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

I can see where you're coming from. State-run busses shouldn't really have any advertisement on at all, save for other state services. I'm thinking things like adult literacy courses etc. (Yes, I've seen this...)

The reason is that relying on advertising from the commercial sector means that even if the intentions are honourable, any approval of a scheme by the people who advertise, or award of a contract to such, is going to be regarded as suspicious. It also means that the advertising organisation is going to hold some sway over supposedly neutral parties.

Does the advertising you mention count as a religious viewpoint? In that actual format, I'd say 'yes'. I'd say that the state shouldn't allow it (even though I agree with it), but only on the same grounds I'd say they shouldn't allow any advertising on state-run busses.

Rapscallion

I'd agree with you there. There's no way that the MBTA will stop advertising on its buses, though, so I at least want to keep the religious statements off of them.

[Slytovhand]

But... if they allow one form of private advertising, are they then in a position to dictate what does and doesn't go on?

[Rapscallion]

But... if they allow one form of private advertising, are they then in a position to dictate what does and doesn't go on?

For me, that's the whole point of the thread. I suppose if they don't put on atheism propoganda, they should make sure that religious propoganda is banned as well, as well as accepting adverts from politicians.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

For me, that's the whole point of the thread. I suppose if they don't put on atheism propoganda, they should make sure that religious propoganda is banned as well, as well as accepting adverts from politicians.

Rapscallion

Exactly. A large part of what I was thinking in this thread is that if you're going to expend a lot of effort making sure they don't put religious propaganda on the buses, you should keep atheist propaganda off as well.

[Ladeeda]

My bad - I read the title and went straight in.

So, atheism itself is a lack of belief in a supernatural being(s). However, there are people who describe themselves as atheists because they have very clear cut ideas about how the world is, just as there are religious people who have clear cut ideas. What about the average person in the street who doesn't particularly believe in anything, just goes about his or her business day to day, and doesn't even think about it? Such a person would be an atheist, but not have a religious viewpoint, since it would be something they hadn't really bothered with.

Am I making sense? I'm doing the overly much overtime thing right now.

Rapscallion

I think that's Agnostic, actually. Someone who doesn't believe or not believe in a Higher Power.

[Nyoibo]

I think that's Agnostic, actually. Someone who doesn't believe or not believe in a Higher Power.

Agnostics don't believe in God, but are open to the idea of a deity.

[Arcade Man D]

Agnostics don't believe in God, but are open to the idea of a deity.

"Oh no! We're being picketed by Agnostics!"


"Say maybe to God!"


Sorry, had to think of Metalocalypse from that.

[Ladeeda]

Agnostics don't believe in God, but are open to the idea of a deity.

Yeah, that sounded like what Rapscallion was describing to me.

[Rapscallion]

Hmm, the definition of agnostic that I've always gone with is unsurity about whether or not there's a higher being to blame. Atheists are those who say there isn't, and theists are those who say there is.

I rather suspect that agnostics, under those criteria, outnumber the other two even if they were added together :p

Rapscallion

[BlaqueKatt]

Exactly. A large part of what I was thinking in this thread is that if you're going to expend a lot of effort making sure they don't put religious propaganda on the buses, you should keep atheist propaganda off as well.

or if they don't ban the religious propaganda-just contact the freedom from religion foundation-they are putting up billboards (http://www.ffrf.org/get-involved/bus-billboard-campaign/), and will advertise on buses. Amusingly the only thing their ads have done is make the churches spend more money to advertise. No one has really gotten offended, as the ads are designed to be mostly non-offensive(quotes from founding fathers, that this is not a Christian nation, etc), and the bus company gets more money.

edited to add:
But recently one of my friends has been trying to get the phrase "God Probably Doesn't Exist, So Just Enjoy Yourself" on the buses.

yeah that might be considered copyright infringement-as it's not an original idea-already done by the German Humanists:

By coincidence, FFRF learned, after starting its ballot, that German humanists are doing the same thing. However, in order to vote at the German site, you have to donate! British Humanists, who took the world by storm by placing bus signs saying, "There's Probably No God. Now Stop Worrying and Enjoy your Life," raised more than $200,000 in a short period last fall through an online campaign

From this article (http://ffrf.org/news/releases/sleep_madison/)-they are based in Madison, which coincidentally also has the largest congregation of Unitarian Universalists (http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml)(basicly secular humanists) in the United States

[KabeRinnaul]

Hmm, the definition of agnostic that I've always gone with is unsurity about whether or not there's a higher being to blame. Atheists are those who say there isn't, and theists are those who say there is.

I rather suspect that agnostics, under those criteria, outnumber the other two even if they were added together :p

Rapscallion

The term I've always liked is "Nontheist." That being, a person with no opinion of the existence of God.

It should be pointed out that gnosticism and theism are two separate ideas. "Gnostic" refers to knowing and the capability to know something as fact. "Theist" refers to belief. You can be both, neither, or a combination.

A Gnostic Theist believes in God, and believes that one can prove the reality of God.
An Agnostic Theist believes in God, but believes that God is unknowable and his existence can't be proven.
A Gnostic Atheist rejects the belief of God, but believes that God is demonstratively false.
An Agnostic Atheist rejects the belief of God, and believes that it can't be proved one way or another.

The two things to remember is that Gnostic used to have this specific meaning, but now it's been co-opted to instead mean "I dunno", and that Atheist making a specific religious statement. Atheist doesn't mean "I don't believe in God", it means "I believe in the lack of God".

So, I'd call Atheism a religious viewpoint, though I don't think I could call it a "religion" as to me that implies an organized set of beliefs.

[Ghel]

I think we get too bogged down in labels sometimes. I like KabeRinnaul's post above, but I disagree on a few minor points.

"I don't believe a god exists." This is an atheist, sometimes called a weak or negative atheist.
"I believe no gods exist." This is also an atheist, sometimes called a strong or positive atheist.

I agree that atheism is a viewpoint about religion, but isn't a religion itself. Atheism has no tenets or dogma.

[Hobbs]

I agree that atheism is a viewpoint about religion, but isn't a religion itself. Atheism has no tenets or dogma.

Yes it does. Athiesm, as a whole, promotes science as the only Truth and proponents of athiesm tend to have the same "with us or against us" mentality of many religions. Athiests regularly try to convert believers into their ideology as well, and tend to view themselves as the only ones with knowledge of the "True un-Faith."

[draco664]

So, I'd call Atheism a religious viewpoint

would you call not collecting stamps a hobby?

I'm not being facetious, but I'm genuinely puzzled that some people believe atheism is a religious viewpoint. Atheism is a rejection of religious viewpoints.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Atheists ares to religion as workaholics are to hobbies. In both cases the defining factor on the subject at hand is the lack thereof.

Next up, comparing empty juice bottles to a selection of full juice bottles, and nudism vs fashion.

[KnitShoni]

would you call not collecting stamps a hobby?

I'm not being facetious, but I'm genuinely puzzled that some people believe atheism is a religious viewpoint. Atheism is a rejection of religious viewpoints.

I thought atheism was a rejection of religion itself. That would make it a viewpoint, no?

[draco664]

I thought atheism was a rejection of religion itself. That would make it a viewpoint, no?

Only if you think that darkness is a kind of light. Absence of belief is not a kind of belief.

This is of course my opinion. As an atheist, I don't see myself as religious. It seems to me that theists who claim that lack of belief is a "kind of belief" are trying more to convince themselves that everyone believes in something. Sort of like a security blanket.

[Kheldarson]

But that's still a viewpoint. Your viewpoint on religion is that it's unnecessary for your life. It's still a view.

[KnitShoni]

Only if you think that darkness is a kind of light. Absence of belief is not a kind of belief.

This is of course my opinion. As an atheist, I don't see myself as religious. It seems to me that theists who claim that lack of belief is a "kind of belief" are trying more to convince themselves that everyone believes in something. Sort of like a security blanket.

OK, but, the question wasn't whether atheism is a religion. We know it isn't. The question is can it be considered a viewpoint on religion.

[Ghel]

Atheism can be a viewpoint on religion. An atheist can also be a person who has never been exposed to the concept of god or a person who lacks the mental capacity to understand the concept, such as a young child (as an aside, I think this is what the majority of theists mean when they claim that they used to be atheists).

Those who write books about their atheism tend to encourage a thought-out world view using critical thinking, skepticism, and inquiry. Those authors tend to advocate science as the best tool we have for learning about reality.

[draco664]

OK, but, the question wasn't whether atheism is a religion. We know it isn't. The question is can it be considered a viewpoint on religion.

Ah, I see where I misread you.

I've had many, many people try to convince me that atheism is a religion by claiming that it is a belief, or in this case, a religious viewpoint. I understand your point now.