Anybody else deal with this issue?

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I have issues with a certain religion. When I was 13 my family moved from Suburban California to rural Idaho, and I was placed into the junior high there. About 80% of the population of the area all belongs to a particular religion. Because of this, the religion had permeated nearly every aspect of life.

The schools were regularly used as forums for this religion---the local chapters would pass out flyers to the students regarding church summer camp, sports leagues between the wards, etc. Religious notices were often posted up in the hallways.

The junior high/high school offered seminary, which was basically a class where they learned all about their religion. To get around the church state separation, seminary classes were held in a building between the two schools (they were caddy-corner to one another). The building was not owned by either school, but by a private third party who allowed it to be used for that purpose. The most galling thing about seminary was that you could not get school credits for it---and people who did not take seminary took other classes which did give you credits, so those of us who didn't take it were required to have more credits in order to graduate then those who did.

The preference for the religion was everywhere. My parents wanted me to get an after school job, and for a long time I could not find one. In interviews I was always asked which ward I belonged to, and when I said I did not belong to a ward, I could practically see their eyes glaze over. When my Mother went looking for an office job she was usually asked, indirectly, if she drank coffee, because the followers of this religion avoid it. She had trouble finding a job as well.

I had two specific teachers who disliked me intensely, and from their comments to me I deduced it was because I was not a member of the religion. The family who lived next door to us was openly contemptuous of me and my sister, and I remember the younger boys telling us that their Mother told them they weren't allowed to talk to us because we would 'draw them away from God and into sin'.

I saw it exaggerated in the social life of the students too. I did not go to any of the high school dances, nor did I ever go on a date while living there. Those kids were not allowed to date anyone who did not belong to the religion, and most of the others were Hispanic Catholics, so they kept to themselves as well. Kids in school would talk to me, but I was never, ever invited to do anything outside of school. I remember vividly the first year of school there. A group of girls I had made friends with asked me one morning which ward I belonged to. Not knowing what a ward was, I asked what they meant. They asked it again. I asked what a ward was, and they gave me a long measuring look and asked me if I was a member of their religion. I said no. It spread really quickly, and I was always treated less respectfully after that.

I saw a lot of things happen to people while I was there, that were unfair and sometimes downright cruel, all in the name of this religion, and I developed an aversion to it. I live far away now, but I still have trouble dealing with people who belong to it. My first instinct is to distrust and avoid them. Since then, I have encountered other people of this particular religion, and of course my dealings with them have always been fairly normal and civil, and they are obviously decent people, but the distrust is still in the back of my mind, and I cannot let go of it. my experiences left a bad taste in my mouth.

I wonder if anyone else has had this kind of experience, and how you deal with it.

[Seshat]

Just so you know you're not being ignored: I suspect most of the people who haven't responded yet are in my position. I sympathise, it sounds horrid, but I've never personally dealt with anything anywhere near that severe. I don't have anything helpful to say, other than to express my sympathy.

[ArenaBoy]

Not in a school or even a town setting but in a more clique/family setting.

I dated a girl who grew up in a very Jewish area of my county. Her family was very strict about who she dated and her parents were none too pleased when they met me and learned that I was a atheist (The old belief that you must be Jewish to date and marry another Jewish woman, her parents were very conservative). Her parents were if anything a little overzealous about me dating her. Seeing me as an unfit man for her and asking me questions about my heritage.

Her friends detested me. They hated me and would glare at me if I was with my then g/f. Eventually the pressure from her parents and her friends got a little too much for the both of us and we parted ways. Damn shame too, as she was an amazing person.

IMO, religion on it's own is not that bad but when it permeates aspects of society such as a job interview, a school, or even social lives it can lead to some very bad things. A lot of hatred can stem from these things when they are left uncontrolled and I don't ever want to see or deal with that again.

And TPG, my sympathies. I would have gone mad in that town.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

Thanks, guys.

The issue I was actually asking about is the fact that I have trouble dealing with these people to this day. How do you get past something like that?

[NightAngel]

OOO! OOO! PICK ME! I know which religion it is.

My first husband's family was of that religion and it can be almost cult like and they do treat you different if you aren't 'one of them'.

All I can say is just like any group some are good, some are bad. It's rare that you'll go too many places with that high of a concentration of one religion unless you're in Salt Lake or Downtown Clearwater. ;)

Judge a person on their own merits not what religion they are unless they give you no other choice.

[rahmota]

I wasn't ignoring you either I just didn't quite know what to say.

I'll agree that when relgion permeates everything then it is not a good thing.

As to how to get over it. I'm not really sure what to say other than try and recognize not everyone in the world is as ignorant/uptight/overzealous as that.

I hope you're doing ok with thing and sorry you had such a bad experience.

[Greenday]

I think we just need to be like the two-part South Park episodes where Cartman tries to freeze himself so he doesn't have to wait for some game console. When he is like a thousand years in the future, there is no religion. They say stuff like "Science damn you!" It's hilarious.

[AFPheonix]

Just like any other religion, there are people who are insane about it, and people who are reasonable. It's really dependent on their personality. I've never been in the position you were in, although I did get booted from the church I grew up in and had to learn to screen my calls so I wouldn't have to talk to any well-meaning but clueless people who'd try to talk me out of marrying the best guy who ever happened to me, so I can kind of relate to religious crazies.
The religion that you're referring to really is very layered. Some people are pretty laissez-faire and just go to their Wards, other people are on their way to having their own planet, have three trillion kids and are elders at the temple. Just take each one as they are, and if they decided to be stupid religious idiots, well, that's their problem, not yours. I don't think you're in as nearly as religious as an area as you were before (you're a Portland peep too, right?), so you have that ability, at least.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

That's right, phoenix, I'm in Portland now. When I got old enough I fled the entire state.

I guess my problem is that I can't hide it. When I'm talking to someone and they mention that they belong to that religion my first, instinctive reaction is to physically recoil from them. Believe me, they notice it. And it's really not necessary, because I now live in an area where the religion doesn't permeate everything. I have no reason to be fearful of them, but I am. It's almost visceral and completely unconscious.

Thanks everyone for understanding. It's kind of sad that you understand so well, when after all these years I still haven't been able to get my parents to understand why I had such a difficult time there.

[AFPheonix]

I guess you just get to learn to be a good actress, then. ;)
Physically force yourself to look normal on the outside, even if inside you're thinking "HOLY CRAP! <insert religion here> ALERT!".
I think eventually, as you come in contact with more of them who aren't as insane, your inside reaction will more closely match your forced outside reaction.

[Seshat]

It sounds like you're having a reaction similar to a phobic reaction. I suggest you research desensitisation, and ideally research who in your region is skilled at diagnosing and treating phobic reactions.

If you're having such a visceral, physical reaction, it's deeply embedded in your subconscious mind. You should seek out professional assistance.

Consciously knowing it's unwarranted, however, is a terrific and huge step. You should be proud of yourself.

[smileyeagle1021]

All I can say is just like any group some are good, some are bad. It's rare that you'll go too many places with that high of a concentration of one religion unless you're in Salt Lake or Downtown Clearwater. ;)
.

nitpick, Salt Lake City proper no longer has the majority of its resident as members of that religion. Actually I believe that applies to the whole county now. You want bad go to either Provo or Logan.

And yes, I know what it feels like... it is the greatest conversion tool ever, shun someone for being different and when they give into the pressure to convert treat them like they are king of the world... I'll be honest, for the months right after converting it felt awfully damned good. Though, I wouldn't suggest converting because that's what the majority wants for you to do... that's a long term solution to a short term problem.

[anriana]

I've dealt with a similar situation, and I don't see any reason why you should try and get over it. You didn't mention that this reaction is causing you extreme difficulties in your life, so I'm assuming it's not. So what if you have trouble interacting with people of this particular religion? You moved to Portland, do you really encounter them that often?

[Flyndaran]

Dealing with bigoted jackasses is hard for everyone. You are not alone. Dealing with religious asses is the same as dealing with racists, and every other -ist and prejudiced group. Don't sink to their level. Don't take THEIR ignorant hate personally, and NEVER consider it your fault in any way that you are surrounded by asses.

Whenever you get 80% of an area to be members of one group of anything, they will attract bigoted asses. I would hazard to bet that even a strange town full of chess players would shun those asking about go or checkers.

Humans as individuals are often quite nice, but humans in tight groups are vile insular 'us vs. them' obsessed asses.

[smileyeagle1021]

Humans as individuals are often quite nice, but humans in tight groups are vile insular 'us vs. them' obsessed asses.

and without fail the "us" will believe without a doubt that the "them" are trying to persecute them.

[Flyndaran]

and without fail the "us" will believe without a doubt that the "them" are trying to persecute them.

And thereby BE the persecutors. It's why the judicial system was set up to override the majority, when the majority is wrong.

[smileyeagle1021]

And thereby BE the persecutors. It's why the judicial system was set up to override the majority, when the majority is wrong.

except in California where the majority said to hell with this, if the judicial system won't cooperate we'll just rewrite the constitution to force them to persecute the "them" with us.

[Flyndaran]

except in California where the majority said to hell with this, if the judicial system won't cooperate we'll just rewrite the constitution to force them to persecute the "them" with us.

And with a chickensh*t supreme court that won't take any case even vaguely related to gay rights, the other two branches are allowed almost unfettered rule to persecute and trample on civil liberties.

[Jadedcarguy]

My sister went through exactly the same thing in Idaho. She, like me, is an atheist, and has no problem saying so. Could not find a job to save her life until she figured out why. Her next interview, she showed up with a gold cross necklace, and mentioned the church closest to her house. Hired. :rolleyes::mad:


It will be a lovely day when this shit stops mattering. :(

[Flyndaran]

...
It will be a lovely day when this shit stops mattering. :(

But the day after might be problematic. There are very strong evolutionary reasons why our species is so prone to rigid clannish behavior.

It would be interesting to see how such a species would act without strong us vs. them attitudes or even the underlying urge to join groups.

[Slytovhand]

There are very strong evolutionary reasons why our species was so prone to rigid clannish behavior.

Edited for accuracy...:p

Yes - we shall see...

[Flyndaran]

Edited for accuracy...:p

Yes - we shall see...

No. Putting the word "was" in that place makes the sentence say that you don't think people have excessive clannish behavior NOW.

I think you meant to make my sentence state that people are no longer under evolutionary forces to be as clannish as we are presently.

Personally, I think the forces are stronger now. When groups get bigger than a couple hundred the only things keeping them together is group identity. That is the whole concept behind nations and just about any other huge group.

[Boozy]

It would be interesting to see how such a species would act without strong us vs. them attitudes or even the underlying urge to join groups.

Well, the whole basis for the world economy would collapse. The world would likely be indistinguishable.

Clan behaviour doesn't have to be a bad thing. For example, there's nothing wrong with my company trying to get more market share than our competitors. The competition produces higher quality products and lower prices. And it would be completely impossible if our employees didn't strongly identify with Company A instead of Company B.

But like with anything, Us vs. Them can be taken to an unhealthy extreme.

[Slytovhand]

Yeah, sort of...

More about the 'evolutionary' side of things. There were evolutionary reasons for clannish behaviour.

Now, the clannish behaviour isn't from an evolutionary basis. Now, such behaviour doesn't make sense, and is more destructive than survival.

I'm not so sure about it being stronger though. More obvious in some respects - yes. But the 'clan' as such seems to have dissolved a fair bit, to be replaced by nationalism... probably for the worse.

[Flyndaran]

Yeah, sort of...

More about the 'evolutionary' side of things. There were evolutionary reasons for clannish behaviour.

Now, the clannish behaviour isn't from an evolutionary basis. Now, such behaviour doesn't make sense, and is more destructive than survival.

I'm not so sure about it being stronger though. More obvious in some respects - yes. But the 'clan' as such seems to have dissolved a fair bit, to be replaced by nationalism... probably for the worse.


Same biological source but with cultural differences in expression in my humble opinion.
Evolution is still affecting our species, very different forces than ancient ones, but still going on.
Nearsightedness that would have lead to early deaths way back is allowed to spread throughout our population. That's evolution as poor vision isn't necessary to live long enough to reproduce.
While most aspects of the evolution of modern man are dismal, there is one silver lining.
Every successful species evolves rate of aging to accomodate expected lifespans without considering rate of aging.
A wild mouse that even if magically kept from aging would still likely only live say three years in the wild because of all the other hazards of living has no need to evolve a slow rate of aging. Getting old around 2 1/2 and old at 3 fits perfectly.

[Shangri-laschild]

I used to be a member of that religion. I was always amazed at how many of the girls seemed like this perfect cookie cutter of each other. Sweet, nice, most likely to seem like a homemaker type even if they worked. That wasn't me. Not at all. I got lucky sort of. The ward I was in had nice girls. They were accepting and welcomed me and my friend (who was very much like me) and included us. The leaders were the problem. They made us feel like we were so different that we had to be watched because we were more likely to infect the others since it was a given that we were going to to bad. In retrospect, I don't know that I would have left the church as soon as I did if it hadn't been for them.

For me it was just two leaders who made things really really bad for me and my at the time best friend. When you get in areas where the population of them is higher, the cookie cutter-stepford wife bit kicks in a bit higher and it can be a bit harder to find a way to fit in and be accepted. Maybe just remember that not all of them are bad. I know it's going to take some work but you never know. I know when I was active in the church, I still never once gave a damn about what the other person's religion was. I'd invite them to activities if they wanted to come, and if they said no, it wouldn't phase me. There are decent ones out there. It'll take some work and you might still for a bit have that initial twinge of distrust but just train yourself each time to look beyond that and it'll slowly get better.

[Slytovhand]

After reading Shangri-la's post, I thought of something that is relevant here (and in politics). Moderates rarely get to positions of leadership. I think because moderation means usually having to take a back-seat to your ego and desires - which means actually having to listen and accept other people and their ideas. Such is not usually found in leadership positions.

People look to leaders because they lead - not because they sit around and do a lot of listening.

So, it's really no wonder that anything 'different', anything that doesn't fit in with how they see the world (how they've been taught to see the world), gets 'rejected'. And, such people tend to be 'loud', vocalising their thoughts and beliefs - and thus, being heard over the more moderates views and opinions.. and thus creating a stereotype.

(yes, I"m generalising.. but I'd still reckon it to be fairly accurate).

[Boozy]

Moderates rarely get to positions of leadership.

I disagree. There is an unmistakable "draw to the middle" in both the Canadian and American system (I don't know enough about others to say either way.)

For example, there are a number of far-right evangelicals in the Republican party. Even though their views might be more suited to other fringe parties, they choose to run as Republicans because their more extreme views don't appeal to those middle-of-the-road swing voters. For example, a raging homophobe can stump against gay marriage, but he can't say that homosexuals should be sent to re-education camps, even if that's what he really thinks.

Same on the left. There are almost certainly Democratic politicians who believe that there should be no limitations on abortion, no matter the age of the fetus. But it's political suicide to voice that opinion.

Often we are left with wishy-washy people who won't take a stand on anything, because they are slaves to opinion polls. By attempting to appeal to voters on both sides of any issue, they end up appealing to no one. Or they just don't get anything done.

[crashhelmet]

I've experienced situations like this a few times on two fronts. Not really to the height of what the OP experienced, but still similar.

Background on me. I'm a military brat, I'm Catholic, and I'm half-white, half-Mexican.

Being a Military brat, I moved around a lot as a kid. There are 5 kids in my family, so most of the time, we were forced to live off base since there wasn't any housing on base big enough for us.

The race issue was experienced the most, but that's saved for a different forum or topic. As far as religion is concerned, while living in a community in the south my family was ostracized when our neighbors found out that we were Catholic.

We got the Why don't you come to (Local Church) on Sunday? Insert whole "recruitment" spiel about why you need God in your life, etc. etc. We would say we goto church, we just don't go to yours. That would turn into things like "well, our Church is the best, Pastor so and so is the top in the region, won these awards and commendations, etc etc. Besides, (other Protestant church) has problems with this and that. They're not really good churches if you ask me", and so on.

Once they learned we were Catholic, we were sinners headed straight for Hell and it then it seemed as if we didn't have neighbors at all. No one ever came by that wasn't a friend of my dad's or their families.

Thankfully, we were only there for 6 months. I don't know if my dad's station changed on its own (That happened A LOT) or if my dad pulled some strings.

CH

[jedimaster91]

Dragging this up for my two cents. Appologies in advance.

I do happen to be a member of the aforementioned religion, and before I scare you away, I would like to apologize on behalf of my Western cousins. There does seem to be a definite culture difference between members of this religion that grow up/live in the Western US, and those of us who live elsewhere.

As someone else mentioned, there are those overzealous idiots in every group, and I'm sorry you had to deal with a whole town of them. I sincerely hope that your aversion to us can be overcome in time. I'm going to be very sterotypical here for a second and say that generally speaking, when we are in the minority, we tend to be a little more tolerant of other viewpoints. In my area, there aren't a lot of members who can trace their ancestory back to the pioneers, and I truly believe it makes a difference. We converts understand that not everyone believes in the same things we do and we remember being on the other side of the fence. I personally grew up with this religion, but my parents did not. All of my extended family is of a different faith than I, and for most of my growing up years, I was the only member of my religion in schools with several hundred to a couple thousand students. I grew up in the reverse situation as your experience, and at times was ostrescized (sp?) for my beliefs.

I used to wonder what it would be like to live in an area where there were more members of my faith, and after working with a group of supervisors from Salt Lake, I decided I'd go crazy if I ever moved West. They were good people, but cliquey and were more concerned with the letter of certain rules than the spirit of the rules.

So, again, I apologize for your bad experience, but please realize we're not all like that. I firmly believe that if we were all the same, life would be boring, so I like being around people who are different. My best friend in highschool was so opposite of me in every belief and opinion I had, but we respected one another and agreed to disagree. And she was the only one of my highschool buddies that came to my wedding reception.

Also apologies to you Westerners of this religion. I really hope I didn't offend anyone (too much, lol), but I really felt I needed to set a few things straight. :)

[guywithashovel]

I was treated like a pariah by a portion of the people I went to church with as a kid. However, I have not had any experiences like the OP describes, though I'm not too sure that she's still interested, whereas this thread was started over a year ago.

To be perfectly honest, I think religion is very overrated in our society, especially here in North America. If you want people to think you're a good, honest person, all you have to do is tell them that you attend church regularly. By just knowing that, most people will think you're an admirable person (without knowing anything else about you). Likewise, many people will actually think you should not be trusted if you are not religious. One time, I heard a woman say that she finds it hard to trust people who don't believe in God, because (her words) "if they don't have God, what do they have?" It's ridiculous to see how high religion is exalted in our society.

I"m not saying that there aren't good people within religions, because there are. Nonetheless, I have yet to see any evidence that being religious or believing in invisible men who live in the sky and control humanity does anything to make a person a better human being. I have been to several churches, and the people in those churches were not any better than people anywhere else are. They could lie, gossip, and be just as hurtful and vindictive as people anywhere else can be.

[Boozy]

One time, I heard a woman say that she finds it hard to trust people who don't believe in God, because (her words) "if they don't have God, what do they have?"

I honestly believe that good people behave morally because its in their nature to do so, regardless of their religious beliefs or non-beliefs. At times in my life, I've been Christian, non-Christian, believed in God, didn't believe in God, etc... and at no point did the way I treat other people change.

Some people obviously believe that the only thing keeping people from becoming murderers and thieves is belief in God and the afterlife. Such a belief says a lot about them. Do they really need the incentive of divine reward or threat of punishment to keep them from harming others? That's a disturbing thought to me.

[Gerrinson]

Some people obviously believe that the only thing keeping people from becoming murderers and thieves is belief in God and the afterlife. Such a belief says a lot about them. Do they really need the incentive of divine reward or threat of punishment to keep them from harming others? That's a disturbing thought to me.

Unfortunately, that is true. Which is quite disturbing. Also a bit sad - grown adults can't behave without an invisible parent figure watching over them with the threat of the ultimate grounding. I've known quite a few people like that. In fact, some of them make up rather retarded 'rules' about what is safe and what isn't because otherwise 'you'll go to Hell!'

Some examples of stunning inability to accept, well, anything outside one's approved religious 'world view' (slight paraphrasing, some of these were quite a while ago):

Regarding the card game Magic the Gathering: "I wouldn't play that because it looks Satanic."

Or sushi: "It's probably sinful and it's not Christian because it's not from America." Which is, of course, a whole new level of stupidity. I've run into this regarding a number of things other than sushi, as well. In any of these instances, don't point out that Jesus wasn't from America, either, so he must not be Christian. The cognitive dissonance is practically tangible when you do say this. Then the screaming, yelling, and threats begin. :rolleyes:

Regarding the Book of Latter Day Saints (from a non-Mormon): "It's the work of the Devil. And it makes people sacrifice animals!" I haven't read the book of LDS, but I somehow think that's not an entirely true statement. Also, it's fun to show these people specific parts of the Old Testament and point out that since they are not making sacrifices, then God must be angry with them. This will also trigger frothing-at-the-mouth levels of cognitive dissonance.

Please note that these examples do not reflect the majority of Christians. Just mouthy idiots who display a level of pretty much mind numbing ignorance. I do so enjoy enlightening them. All of my experiences of this nature have been with Christians, not Mormons. But in my experience the combination of loud mouth, ignorance and/or stupidity, and an inherent "I'm better than you" streak knows no limits of a religious, national, social class or any other nature.

And if you get a place where they can cluster together and lord it over others, they will take advantage of the opportunity.

Hmm. Looks like I'm wordy and opinionated. :p

[anriana]

Unfortunately, that is true. Which is quite disturbing. Also a bit sad - grown adults can't behave without an invisible parent figure watching over them with the threat of the ultimate grounding.

That's a great way to express it.


Regarding the card game Magic the Gathering: "I wouldn't play that because it looks Satanic."

That is the reason my parents wouldn't let me purchase it.

"It's probably sinful and it's not Christian because it's not from America."

Hahahahahahaha. Did you ask them what foods do count as Christian or where they get their 100% American grown diet?

You should submit some of these to Fundies Say The Darndest Things.

[Rapscallion]

Hahahahahahaha. Did you ask them what foods do count as Christian or where they get their 100% American grown diet?


I've taken calls from modern-day essenics (http://www.thenazareneway.com/index_vegetarian.htm) where they wanted to obtain the same grains Jesus would have eaten. I refrained from asking them about sell-by dates etc, but more seriously there are people who do believe in a middle-eastern diet and try to live like that.

Not many of them, mind...

Rapscallion