An Otherkin Dilemma

[Hyena Dandy]

Now, I have some friends who are what is known as Otherkin. Some of them (Like my dear Little Sister) are polite about it, and consider it just something about them. Others, though, are more... Contentious about it.

I also have a friend who despises Otherkin (I can't convince him that its just a belief and not a symptom of schizophrenia) and he insists on bringing it up. Normally, if I'm there in a chat/conversation with both of them, I tell them both to shut up, and change the topic.

This time, I told them both the shut up and change the topic, but I also had a question raised.

See, it became obvious while they were arguing that they were arguing about different things. Friend 1 was saying that Otherkin are pretentious assholes, just because they think they're someone else. Friend 2 said that that's not the case, Otherkin aren't like that, because Otherkin think they USED to be something else. Friend 1 said he was using the No True Scotsman argument because the person he'd talked to had been an Otherkin.

Here's my problem. Can he disqualify that on the basis of what he believes? Otherkin is such a loose term that really the only basis is that they claim to be Otherkin.

In short, the question I had raised was "How do you call No True Scotsman if you can't find Scotland?"

Am I being clear, or do I need to explain my question more? I can't tell...

[bunnyboy]

Yeah, your question is pretty much a good point, I think the big thing that turns a lot of us non-otherkin off is people who make it their entire life, and not in the I believe this intensely, but in the well why would I need a job I'm (insert otherkin species here.)

To give a couple examples, I've had otherkin friends who believed themselves to be/have been elves, and well could live life normally... and then I've had the oh so wonderful I AM Coyote, and I AM some kind of primordial titanic force.... but I can't for the life of me figure out how to keep... a job/relationship/kids/from smoking pot.

It has at various times made me go >< becase up here, in order to get to something resembling mysticism you have to bash your head on something solid to make their stupid stop hurting your brain, avoid them entirely (hmmm maybe start my own monastic religion), or go down the way I did and try to make them look as foolish as possible.

but yes, it's impossible to find a True Scotsman when you're in the middle of Azerbaijan and have no clue where a Scotsman would even come from... let alone if they're real.

[Savannah]

Not quite sure if this is an answer to your question, but this is what stood out to me.

From what I read (I had to google otherkin), a lot of the otherkin do seem to believe that they are currently something else, so friend #1 has a point. If the first hit on google turns up people claiming to be other creatures and using the term 'otherkin', saying that otherkin don't do that is pretty suspect. If the only real criterion to be otherkin is your claim to be one, then you have to accept all forms as "true" otherkin. (It's not that you can't find Scotland, it's that everyone is Scottish.)

Mind you, I don't see why claiming to be something else makes you a pretentious asshole.

(And I'm hoping that when he says it's a symptom of schizophrenia he's saying it's a delusion, not that it's a case of multiple personalties. If the latter, please beat him about the head with a psychology textbook while chanting "Schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder are two separate things." :p)

[jackfaire]

(And I'm hoping that when he says it's a symptom of schizophrenia he's saying it's a delusion, not that it's a case of multiple personalties. If the latter, please beat him about the head with a psychology textbook while chanting "Schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder are two separate things." :p)

Yes oh dear god please do!!! (The lecturing on psychology bit)

[Hyena Dandy]

(And I'm hoping that when he says it's a symptom of schizophrenia he's saying it's a delusion, not that it's a case of multiple personalties. If the latter, please beat him about the head with a psychology textbook while chanting "Schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder are two separate things." )

He's schizophrenic, I think he knows. :p

His argument was "I've thought I'm not human, I'm schizophrenic, therefore its a symptom of schizophrenia"

[Savannah]

He's schizophrenic, I think he knows.

Oh, good.

Wait! I meant bad! Schizophrenia is bad. But good that...never mind. :p

Now his argument, as you have presented it here, is really worthless. Is he claiming that schizophrenia is the only cause of delusions? How does he know that the otherkin are actually having delusions? Even if he won't accept that what they believe is real, he's denying the possibility that they could be fooling themselves or making it all up for attention.

[jackfaire]

Now his argument, as you have presented it here, is really worthless. Is he claiming that schizophrenia is the only cause of delusions? How does he know that the otherkin are actually having delusions? Even if he won't accept that what they believe is real, he's denying the possibility that they could be fooling themselves or making it all up for attention.

Does that mean he believes religion is a symptom of schizophrenia?

[Lace Neil Singer]

I think the real issue is the fact that, despite having been told, he keeps going on and on and on. That in itself is a real reason to beat someone round the head with a book. :p Maybe next time he brings it up, change the subject real fast and start talking about something else til he gets the hint?

Now, I don't tell people as a general rule that I connect with hyenas. For one thing, there is no-one round where I live who thinks that way, and for another, most people have quite prejudiced views on hyenas as a whole.

[Slytovhand]

There's an easy out... everyone is an 'otherkin'. Of course, that would depend on your definitions (and your beliefs), but to put it simplistically, humans have only been wandering this earth for a few million years. The universe (as we know it) has been around for a few billion years - thus, who wouldn't be (unless souls/spirits only happen to pop up when a new species develops to walk around on each bit of rock flying through space).

Also, just because someone is 'other', doesn't mean they'll have full and total recall on what they were previously. Shock is one obvious example, fear is another. As well as... if you're living here and now, then recalling every useless thing of another lifetime is... useless!

Those who can, do. Those who can't, talk incessantly and think they can teach, and have to big-note themselves...

[Nyoibo]

Beats Otakukin and God I wish I didn't know about them. :(

[Hyena Dandy]

Does that mean he believes religion is a symptom of schizophrenia?
To quote him
I could say all religion is a symptom of schizophrenia, but at least Jesus existed

Now, I don't tell people as a general rule that I connect with hyenas. For one thing, there is no-one round where I live who thinks that way, and for another, most people have quite prejudiced views on hyenas as a whole.

I know what you mean. *sagenod*

[HYHYBT]

His argument was "I've thought I'm not human, I'm schizophrenic, therefore its a symptom of schizophrenia"Interesting logic. So does that mean that having ten fingers is also a symptom of schizophrenia?

[bunnyboy]

Interesting logic. So does that mean that having ten fingers is also a symptom of schizophrenia?

Touche, but everyone has ten fingers, not everyone has the whole thing of I'm a vampire/werewolf/elf/fae/vidya game or anime character/animal in a human body... Of course that's the otherkin I avoid, the previous lifers who are normal save their beliefs...

of course this is coming from someone who feels off hin a very male body...


And yeah... Otakukin... I never experienced Miss Nova... just read about one person and I'm already.... *shudder*

[Hyena Dandy]

Touche, but everyone has ten fingers, not everyone has the whole thing of I'm a vampire/werewolf/elf/fae/vidya game or anime character/animal in a human body... Of course that's the otherkin I avoid, the previous lifers who are normal save their beliefs...

of course this is coming from someone who feels off hin a very male body...


And yeah... Otakukin... I never experienced Miss Nova... just read about one person and I'm already.... *shudder*

It seems entirely possible to me that someone could have only the problem of thinking they're something else in a human body. Its not thinking you are in the wrong body that matters. Its when you think that means you don't need to do human things.

For example: You're male, and you say you feel female. Using that as a metaphor for the Otherkin, it wouldn't be claiming to be a female in a male body, it would be refusing a prostate exam.

Clarification: Not saying that Otherkin and Transgendered people are the same, I was using a metaphor.

[Slytovhand]

Here's my problem. Can he disqualify that on the basis of what he believes? Otherkin is such a loose term that really the only basis is that they claim to be Otherkin.

No.

After all, if it were that simple, then all beliefs would fail... or all religions would be right. (not getting into a debate on that, though). But, if that's the be all and end all of his argument, then no belief has any merit.. including his own.

Now, the smart thing for anyone claiming some sort of connection such as 'Otherkin' would be to give ok evidence! (hence your scots line). But, that's not going to be a constant... different people experience things in different ways.

The irony of that is, some people have been able to provide evidence, yet they're still considered 'crackpots', or that there is some 'trick' or other more 'logical' explanation - but belief in other things (such as a monotheistic god) is perfectly normal and doesn't really need that sort of evidence or explanation! (sure, atheists may disagree...)

[Shangri-laschild]

Some titles or names for groups are just so amazingly broad. How different is the 13 year old who dresses in black and "hexes" anyone watches The Craft as gospel from the person who believes in harming none and nature and the goddess? Both might call themselves Wiccan but they are very different. How do you say that one group are the true Wiccan and the other isn't and who would even be able to make that decision. Most people know there's a difference between the two but they still both claim the same name. Yes, one side can say that they are the half that still follows it as it started but does that disqualify the second group from using the name? I know my comparisson is a bit off, but really it's generally the same thing. You have a term that covers a broad spectrum of people. At this point, even if the first group of Wiccans might not see the other half as being true Wiccans, if society views them as such,....I'm not sure if I explained properly or not, but it's hard to say that some are the true whatevers in the group while others aren't when it's such a broad spectrum.

[bunnyboy]

Some titles or names for groups are just so amazingly broad. How different is the 13 year old who dresses in black and "hexes" anyone watches The Craft as gospel from the person who believes in harming none and nature and the goddess? Both might call themselves Wiccan but they are very different. How do you say that one group are the true Wiccan and the other isn't and who would even be able to make that decision. Most people know there's a difference between the two but they still both claim the same name. Yes, one side can say that they are the half that still follows it as it started but does that disqualify the second group from using the name? I know my comparisson is a bit off, but really it's generally the same thing. You have a term that covers a broad spectrum of people. At this point, even if the first group of Wiccans might not see the other half as being true Wiccans, if society views them as such,....I'm not sure if I explained properly or not, but it's hard to say that some are the true whatevers in the group while others aren't when it's such a broad spectrum.

Mainly because of precedent, the harming none, and nature and goddess is pretty much a continuous line from the old brit trads, up to the "my great grandmother was a member of a religion I found out about last week" trad, whereas Otherkin, much like Otakukin tend to be all over the place.

or to use an example, there's a central line among lets say ALL Christian sects (Jesus is the Savior of the world), however, there's only a very general line among all monotheists, there's one god, however this doesn't unite them all, there's various common lines among each.

[Slytovhand]

Shangrli-La, your wiccan example is actually a nice one getting to the crux of it... belief! The 13 year old, in all likelihood, won't call her or himself 'Wiccan' when she's 18. The other probably will. Granted, the 13 yo may slowly actually start to believe, but for the moment, they are playing a game.

Religion isn't just about names, it's about beliefs. The media will use either if it suits their purposes.