Why is there some hate for furries?

[axel]

Because i'm a furry and i don't understand why so many people seem to hate me for being a furry or not playing the same mmos that furries play.

[Greenday]

Hate? I didn't realize people truly hated it. Not liking it because it doesn't make sense is more like it.

[Boozy]

This is the second time you've brought this up. The first time (http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?p=22961#post22961), you accused Fratching in particular of being anti-Furry, which struck most of us as odd, since no one until that point had mentioned Furries in any context.

If you believe that Fratching and/or another forum is anti-Furry, state your case with examples. This is a debate forum, so we expect some good arguments to be presented. :)

[the_std]

This kind of thread seems to be a symptom of anonymous internet attention-seeking. The topic has merit, as there is a lot of baseless hatred for furries out there, but without elaboration, without direction and it seemingly being a repeated instance, it starts to point to "people hate me cause I'm special"-ism.

[axel]

Not here,but one forum when i posted my fursona of a fox, i got mocked and stuff,and people said i'm not welcome at the board for being a furry.

[Lace Neil Singer]

So why post it here? As far as I can make out, there are loads of people on here who are furries or have animal others.

Also, I hate to sound like a bitch (and so does my hyena other), but have you thought there might be another reason? That sounds a lot like pulling a discrimination card to me.

[McDreidel09]

This is from what I have seen. It's not a hate per se, but a squick.

Why you may ask?

It is a squick because of the way furries are depicted. Whenever I have heard or seen furries, they dress up in animal costumes and have sex.

That makes a majority of people squeamish or grossed out.

So, if that kind of furry behavior is all people hear about, they see a furry and automatically think "Ew. This person pretends to have sex with animals."

This is just from my observation. Take it as you will.

[Peppergirl]

Forgive my ignorance, but WTF is a furry?

Is that the same thing as I saw on one of the old CSI episodes?

[AdminAssistant]

Forgive my ignorance, but WTF is a furry?

Is that the same thing as I saw on one of the old CSI episodes?

Probably. Best I understand it, it's people who identify with particular animals. But, I don't really understand it. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, let your freak flag fly man, but I do not get it. (I also don't get extreme S&M so....yeah. Maybe my sex life is a bit bland!)

It is a squick because of the way furries are depicted. Whenever I have heard or seen furries, they dress up in animal costumes and have sex.

Between that and the lewd pictures I've seen of Pokemon, Sonic the Hedgehog, and the Disney Robin Hood characters....yeah. I realize that's not fair, but it's a very knee jerk reaction. And I can never watch my favorite Disney movie the same way again.

[Greenday]

Between that and the lewd pictures I've seen of Pokemon, Sonic the Hedgehog, and the Disney Robin Hood characters....yeah. I realize that's not fair, but it's a very knee jerk reaction. And I can never watch my favorite Disney movie the same way again.

You really needed the furry fetish to ruin that stuff for you? Did you never see the priest's boner or the penis building in the Little Mermaid? Or the leaves that spell "sex" in the Lion King? Or...

But yea, I rarely see furries depicted in something that's not sexual and, well, seems kinda similar to a beastiality fetish to me.

[Rapscallion]

Because i'm a furry and i don't understand why so many people seem to hate me for being a furry or not playing the same mmos that furries play.

Tribalism and a desire for power to use it. It's a relatively new phenomenon, and thus people don't know or understand it if they've had no real experience of the issue.

Hitler was able to take hold of the national consciousness back in the 1930s and 1940s because of this facet of the human condition. Humans are very much a species that will identify with certain groups within it.

Babylon 5 creator J M Str... (however you spell his name) noted something interesting among his extras when shooting. With so many alien races represented amongst the background characters, he noted that at breaks and in the canteen the extras gathered together to chat in groups defined by the make-up they were wearing. He watched this for a while and then made behind-the-scenes arrangements to make sure that certain extras were given different races (and therefore make-up) and they showed signs of being uncomfortable in the same groups they used to chat with. After a few days, they migrated to the tables and groups where other extras with the same costumes etc were.

Fear and hate is rarely rational. Until you can design a better human, live with it.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

But yea, I rarely see furries depicted in something that's not sexual and, well, seems kinda similar to a beastiality fetish to me.

I didn't know anything about furries, so I did some real quick research. Apparently it's not a sexual fetish. A fetish can be part of the furry lifestyle, but it's not common. Most furries don't report any attraction to animals, real or plush.

That's all I got from the wiki article. I'm still confused as hell as to what exactly it IS about.

[Greenday]

I didn't know anything about furries, so I did some real quick research. Apparently it's not a sexual fetish. A fetish can be part of the furry lifestyle, but it's not common. Most furries don't report any attraction to animals, real or plush.

That's all I got from the wiki article. I'm still confused as hell as to what exactly it IS about.

I just woke up so reading that, I think I may have made a typo somewhere but I'll figure it out.

But yea, I know it's not always a sexual fetish. It just always seems to be one when I discover someone is.

[Amanita]

Ok, I'll bite. I've got friends who are furries. At its heart, being furry means you like animals, particularly anthropomorphized ones. (Like does not neccessarily mean sexual liking)
You appreciate artwork and stories with anthro animal themes and characters.

Some people do take it farther, getting into sexual attraction territory, but not all furries do. For some furries, it stops at the appreciation stage of things.
There's been a lot of debate in the furry community about what a "true" furry is, about the "lifestylers" or fursuit-sexers and plushophiles, and how they make the community look.

[Peppergirl]

So, again - forgive my naivete, but do some of them dress if furry costumes and have sex with one another?

[Boozy]

Yeah, I think so.

[Amanita]

Some furries do, but not all. A friend of mine wants a wolf costume, but he just wants it to look cool, not sex in.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Yeah, I think so.

Oh most definitely, some do... I've seen it(and learned a valuable lesson about link-clicking randomly...)

There's a whole heap of similarly bizarre goings-on within the fandom, all of which tend to keep me face-palming regularly.

Anyway, the reasons for the hate have already been explained. Though there's something to be said for the fact that it always gets worse once someone starts crying fursecution!!!!one!!11

Seriously, Don't feed the trolls!

[Cats]

I consider myself a closet furry to some extent. I would seriously wear my cat ears all the time if there wasn't such a bad stigma about it (while I'm not that obsessed with what people think of me, it's just easier to not have people ask questions every 5 seconds). I don't wear them just to be cute or stand out, I associate better with felines than I do fellow humans. You're looking at a future cat lady here.

What annoys me is the ignorance when it comes to furries. Many people think furry ALWAYS equates to furry sex, and that's where the taboo and hate of the furries comes in. When it comes to real furries getting it on (and not anthropromorphic fictional characters), while I can see how people may be eqating it with beastiality on some level, I don't see it any much different than any other kind of bedroom role-play. You can screw 1,000 different ways in 1,000 different outfits, but you're still human beings screwing when it comes down to it. While I don't really support it since it's giving the ignorant people negative views about the other types of furries, in the end, as long as it's consensual, who am I to argue about what people do in their bedrooms? I don't have an obligation to LIKE it, but I have a "live and let live" mentality about things like that.


And if that post didn't make much sense, well, it's 4 am and a sleeping cat in my lap snoring away.

[Skunkle]

I'm in the fandom myself. Beware: this is gonna be long, but it's not a rant.

Furry is an interest in animal-like cartoon characters. It's a social circle. It's a love for anthropomorphic animal-related art and writing. It's a fandom. It's a way to be different in a world where "unique" only means "just like fifty milluion others who're 'unique' in exactly the same way you are". It's a sexual kink. It's all of these, in varying amounts, to various people. The fetish side contains just about every real and fantasy fetish that exists, but being a smaller group, the hazy outlying fetishy zones seem to "pop out" - they're more concentrated and thus easier to really see nin detail, hence the notion that furries are ALL very kinky. Best way to put it: If you put 300 red and 150 blue balls in a bowl and mix them up, for all you know they're in somewhat even amounts. If there's only 10 red and 5 blue in the bowl, there's a majority of red balls and it's quite clear.

Some furries are here to consume or to create art or stories. Some are here to roleplay. Some have a "fursona", which can range from an idealized version of the person to a belief that this is their true inner self. Some wear fursuits, some don't. Most of the fandom are NOT into bestiality - they prefer the notion of the fictional anthropomorphic creatures generically called "furries", which are bipedal and sentient. The biggest splinter group of sorts are the Therianthropes, who follow an interest in lycanthropy or therianthropy, and hold beliefs ranging from interests in the native ideas of guide spirit animals or totems, to being an animal soul in a human body, to belief in actually being able to change into an animal. Therianthropes or Therians are often very opposed to being connected with the furry fandom, some citing the fetish bent, others claiming furries are not as serious as they are about this connection to animals. And they're generally not into bestilality or zoophilia either, though they may be a fraction more likely than most furries.

The fandom has gotten what press so far? Loaded did an article on furries - at least, the sexual fetish side. Vanity Fair did an article - on the sexual fetish side. CSI and ER have had episodes set partly at furry cons, and played up the fetish side. Why? Probably because it's juicy, same reason tabloids exist. It pulls in readers/viewers. An artist who used to have a blog noted that he was approached for one of the magazine articles, with the writer asking permission to use some of his hardcore fetish art. He declined and offered some tamer art, and was told bluntly that the writer wasn't interested - he wanted to portray the fetishy side, and wasn't interested in a more general idea of what the fandom might really be like. There's not much press out there on the good side, and I'd love to see something that tries to cover as much of the various good and bad sides as possible and paint an objective picture. But really, that's a pipe dream; the juicy sleazy side is what people seem to want to read.

Do people really have sex in costumes? Do they EVER? Yes, probably. Is it common? Not in the slightest. "Fursuits" are usually used as a way to BE your fictional self or fursona, and are worn at conventions - which, just like sci-fi, Star Trek, anime or gaming Cons, are just places for like-minded people to get together. If any fursuit sex occurs, it's behind closed doors in private gatherings, and neither I nor anyone else I know has ever seen one of the long-rumored crotchless fursuits, or any fursuit sex, even in many private parties. Sex yes, oh yes in a few private gatherings, but not in-suit. If they exist, no one walks around the con floor in 'em. What do you find at furry cons? Art gallery. Dealers' area. Talent show. Fursuit parade. Sometimes a fursuit Olympics, usually very silly. Discussion panels: writing good fan fiction, art tutorials, discussions of all sorts. After-hours parties, usually involving alcohol and dancing and loud music. Most of it, excluding fursuit-related things, is the same stuff you find at any other Con, though anime and sci-fi cons are often equally interested in elaborate costumes. Furries do like personal contact, so there's a lot of (G-rated) contact in the halls: scratching fur, hugs, etc. Most furs won't scratch or hug random people, but if you're approached and don't want to be hugged or touched, calmly say so and people will get the point.

Fursuiters, on the whole, love to get hugged or get photos taken with them - they're being showy and they know it - and fursuiting often involves lots of pantomime and clowning around. Fursuiters usually don't talk in-suit, as most suits don't have a moving jaw. Mine does and I do speak, and have a very different persona in-suit from my own. There's also an unwritten courtesy that, to preserve the fantasy element, the persioon and the suited character are often thought of as separate entities, and many Cons offer name badges that show your suit character's name but not the name (real or character) on your regular badge, aiding in keeping the mystery as to who's in the suit. We all know they're just people in suits, but pretending and going along with the fantasy is fun, as can be asking the suiter where Joe went, and when Joe is back out-of-suit commenting that he just misased seeing Joe Fox. It's all about having a good time.

Yes, there's a fursuit sex web site. No, the owners are not in the fandom, really. The suits are poorly-modified mascot suits. Furry suits are usually built to be as comfortable as possible, and often contain small fans inside the head. My suit, a jaguar, is not full-body; it consists of a head, paws/arm sleeves, and a tail. The rest is street clothes. I have one of the lightest, most breathable heads out there, with a fan, and I can't possibly imagine having sex wearing that. I'd overheat in two minutes, and the visibility is limited. And I wouldn't really find it fun in general. In a full-body suit, then? No effing way. There ARE special cold packs used with sports mascot suits, but people have (rarely) died from hypothermia while mascotting with cold packs at long sports events. CUDDLING in suits happens.

Now, the bad side of the fandom: Yes, there ARE bad sides. Plural.
1 - I'd say a good 50-60% of the fandom do fit the stereotype of mom's-basement shut-ins with zero social skills and even less hygeine. When you go to a Con, you'll see, and smell, a few bad eggs.
2 - The people who ARE into fetishes can be a bit vocal about it. Sort of a "You wanna piece of me, make fun of me? C'mere, son of a--" (Note, in regards to this, notes below about anti-furry sentiment)
3 - Many members either LIKE being freaky and don't care what kind of face it puts on the fandom, or are openly fetishy but totally oblivious to the face it puts on the fandom. I'd say at least 30-40% of the fandom fits this, and many of the latter type are also mom's-basement types who simply have zero clue of how much their freaky side is showing.
4 - Many furries are notoriously thin-skinned and quick to retort to perceived slights. "If you're not with us, you're against us" is often the mentality of these types. Again, see below.

Anti-furry sentiment: Remember the rules of the internet.
Rule 3: We are Anonymous.
Rule 4: Anonymous is legion.
Rule 5: Anonymous does not forgive, Anonymous does not forget.
What this all means: The 'net gives the possibility of complete and total anonymity, and this turns loads of otherwise normal people into raging bullies when it hits them that they can say anything and never be truly punished. "Anonymous" refers to the Roman Army-sized mass of seething, intent bullies that all converge under that title. Rule 5 means, in essence, "We will never, ever stop beating a dead horse. If you slip up once today, we'll still be telling everyone we can a year from now, because it's still funny to us."
That considered, we have lovely places like Something Awful, the purpose of which is to mercilessly mock any and everyone. And making a complete laughingstock out of any one person or group is considered a badge of great honor. It's a power trip. Applied to furries, they love to jab 'em with a sharp stick, over and over and over, and watch them freak. It's like poking an anthill - it's seen as mindless, endlessly entertaining fun. And furries, on the whole, DO tend to get angry very easily. But remember that guy who started calling you "Bob the Blob" or "Porta-John" in 3rd grade, and still called you that (and laughed at it) in high school? ...yeah. That's what you're dealing with: Hundreds of those guys.

The common method of cyberbullying any one group as a whole involves finding something about which they're touchy, and trying to get as many people as possible to believe that said something engulfs and consumes that entire group. Furries are touchy about being seen as sexual deviants, thus the legion of Anonymous has made a goal of convincing the net-at-large that furries are all sexual deviants. It's both sad that they are so easily amused, and disturbing that their attempts work so very well. So, "Why is there some hate for furries?" Because a bunch of bored, immature people decided it would be funny to try to make a specific group the appointed ass-end of the internet. And it worked, partly due to a (slight) majority of the fandom being the types, whether intentionally or not, to encourage the stereotypes. Furries are, en masse, thin-skinned. Cyberbullies poke them into anger. They rail back. What has ensued is a neverending pissing match, throwing volleys back and forth.

I don't usually tell random people that I'm in the fandom. My user name or sig on boards may have furry-related things, but I'm careful about which boards get things like that. If I think there might be an issue, I don't put any hint out there in the first place. My boyfriend and I are both into the fandom, but we take a lot of it with a grain of salt. I enjoy the artwork and stories (and yes, there IS a lot of furry porn, but if anyone here cares to see a ton of G- to PG-rated furry art with no porn , I can tell you where to look). I do go to Cons and I do occasionally fursuit. And I'm really not very freaky at all. But I fully acknowledge the bad sides to the fandom.

The furry fandom means different things to different people. If you're curious, ask someone. But if they respond immediately by going on a diatribe about furries, it's a good bet that either they've heard the horror stories and/or read the articles, or they met a really freaky furry. Most of the cyberbullies NEVER discuss this stuff in person. And if you walk into a Con and stand in the lobby for two hours, I can guarantee you won't see anything sexual or fetishy, unless people wearing humanoid animal suits is your definition of freaky. But the bad rep is both deserved and undeserved, and in my opinion anyone who tries to convince you that it's 100% good or 100% bad needs to be taken with a grain, nay a bucket of salt.

Incidentally, "Skunkle" refers to Zephyr, a striped skunk character. The fursuit is Scott Sierra, a jaguar. I don't have a "fursona" per se. I'm assuredly 100% human, inside and out - my characters are only characters.

[Boozy]

Skunkle, has any of that been posted on another site? I'm asking because of the use of the term "here", ie "Some furries are here to consume or to create art or stories". "Here" meaning "Fratching" doesn't make sense.

If you or someone else has posted that on another site, could you please provide the link instead of the text? Copyright could be a concern.

If I'm wrong, apologies.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I'm fairly certain skunkle meant 'here' as in 'here, in the fandom'...

Still though, never hurts to be sure.

[Cat]

I consider myself a closet furry to some extent. I would seriously wear my cat ears all the time if there wasn't such a bad stigma about it (while I'm not that obsessed with what people think of me, it's just easier to not have people ask questions every 5 seconds). I don't wear them just to be cute or stand out, I associate better with felines than I do fellow humans. You're looking at a future cat lady here.


We have more in common than our name :) I would love to wear my ears all the time, but I think the office would frown upon it. I have a good collection, and every Halloween I search for new ones. Cat ears are just really comfortable!

And yes, I associate much better with cats than humans.

[jackfaire]

We have more in common than our name :) I would love to wear my ears all the time, but I think the office would frown upon it. I have a good collection, and every Halloween I search for new ones. Cat ears are just really comfortable!

And yes, I associate much better with cats than humans.

I wonder if someone could get away with it in my office after all some guy had hobo beard (didn't shave or groom his beard beyond keeping it clean for a year it stuck up all over the place.)

[Boozy]

I'm fairly certain skunkle meant 'here' as in 'here, in the fandom'...

Ah, okay. That would make sense then.

Thanks. :)

[blas87]

I really hate to sound rude, but no one should be surprised if people stare or think of you as odd if you go out in public with a tail, whiskers and cat ears, or if you lead another person around with a leash and collar, or if you were to go around public meowing or barking at others.....

I really don't mean to poke fun at different people, but there is a difference between having pink hair or a mohawk or wearing all black and dressing or acting like an animal. It's just not normal, I'm sorry.

[jackfaire]

I really don't mean to poke fun at different people, but there is a difference between having pink hair or a mohawk or wearing all black and dressing or acting like an animal. It's just not normal, I'm sorry.

*roflmao* OH MY FREAKING GOD! That is hilarious when I was a kid your description would have sounded like,

"But there is a difference between wearing a fedora or a ball cap all the time and having pink hair or a mohawk or wearing all black,"

[Fryk]

Great start to a doctoral thesis there, Skunkle :: ). I can't think of a single salient point you missed out on there. And I would be interested in the PG stories you were talking about, if you please.

[AdminAssistant]

I really don't mean to poke fun at different people, but there is a difference between having pink hair or a mohawk or wearing all black and dressing or acting like an animal. It's just not normal, I'm sorry.

No, I don't think there is, at least not to me. Actually, if I see someone with cat ears/tail (outside of Halloween), I will think to myself, "Hm, might be a furry. Very comfortable with themselves to be so open, go you!" If I see someone with a pink mohawk, I'm more likely to think, "Wow, somebody's desperate for attention!!"

But that's just me. As I've said before, let your freak flag fly. As long as all your bits and pieces are covered, I don't really care what you wear.

[Greenday]

Admin, I think I see what blas is getting at. It's normal for humans to be human. But for humans to try to be animals? That's not normal.

[jackfaire]

Admin, I think I see what blas is getting at. It's normal for humans to be human. But for humans to try to be animals? That's not normal.

Normal as in currently done?

Cuz humans in various cultures did dress like animals most notably Native American shamans.

[Greenday]

Normal as in currently done?

Cuz humans in various cultures did dress like animals most notably Native American shamans.

Furries and religious stuff are two separate things though. That and are the people who are furries actually Native American shamans?

[jackfaire]

Furries and religious stuff are two separate things though. That and are the people who are furries actually Native American shamans?

*shrugs* If I see someone dressed like an animal knowing there are other reasons than Furries I wouldn't assume they are a furrie.

Might be a team mascot.

[Lace Neil Singer]

What is normal? :confused:

[Wingates_Hellsing]

What is normal? :confused:

Nothing...


Everything.



Kingdom of Heaven reference FTMFW!!!one11!

[Skunkle]

Correct, "here" meaning "in the fandom" in general.

What is 'normal'? There is no single standard. This varies from culture to culture, state to state, city to city, and social group to social group. And what is perfectly normal in your social group may be extremely weird in another. At a furry con, it's quite normal to see: T-shirts with furries in bikinis (or less), fursuits, tails/ears, collars/leashes (though collars are becoming more prevalent in public) and open displays of platonic affection like hugs.

If you're a furry and you want to be "out" in public, go for it. You're not harming anyone. But do be aware that you're bound to get negative attention, partly due to the stereotypes and partly because such things do look odd to many people, even if they don't really know about furries; also be aware that the more "I'm furry and you can go suck it if you don't like me for this!!" you are, you'll be enforcing the stereotype of furries liking to freak people out. Remember the common mentality that: in public + anything the viewer sees as abnormal = freaky and trying to be freaky.

Oh, yes, and I should probably explain, just for clarification, the most commonly-heard 'freaky' furry term: yiff. This started with "yerf", supposedly an attempt at speaking a fox noise, the way "oink" is the official English for a pig sound, or the rooster's crow is represented as "cock-a-doodle-doo". Furries are, indeed, sexually-oriented to a turn, and from somewhere came the notion that, while "yerf" is a fox vocalization, "yiff" is a more excited or emphatic fox noise, i.e. something foxes say while having sex. And it's become a sort of generalized all-purpose term: it can be a noun or a verb. Noun: generally means "sex". Verb: usually means "to have sex". But also descriptive: "Yiff art" is a slang term for X-rated furry art. Don't get me wrong, though: this isn't a term the average furry fan uses every five seconds. It isn't the furry version of "smurf". It's just a head-scratching, confusing term to some.

Hence the arguably largest furry story archive: Yiffstar. Yiffsatar has artt, too. I don't personally visit, but from what I know, you can likely exclude adult stories from your searches, or search by topic. Like any fanfic or web fiction, while there IS a lot of sex (though is non-furry fanfic any different?) there's also a lot of romance, a lot of very involved and complicated stories, and a whole heapin' helpin' of drama and angst. Watch out: doomed relationships and sudden deaths of loved ones ahead. Again, non-furry fanfic has loads of this, too: what better way to drive a story (I guess) than take two main characters, have one fall in love with the other, and the other show zero interest? Or better yet, same start, but the other falls in love back...and then dies. Fantastic! <sarcasm> Not my thing, really... There's enough drama in the real world, I come to the fandom to have fun. Also see below: furry drama.

Best spot to find furry artwork is THE furry art repository: FurAffinity. Unless you sign up for an account (free) AND set your age in your profile AND set your preferences to allow mature stuff, you can browse to your heart's content and see nothing X-rated. Well, unless the artist forgets to flag their content as 'adult', though usually when that occurs it isn't intentional. On FA, you'll see everything from beautiful, professional-quality art to "my 7-year-old could do better' to 'MY EYES!! MY EYES!!' What has been seen, cannot be unseen... (Anyone who was at FURther CONfusion in San Jose last year and saw Pika-man: 'nuff sed, and I'm sorry we all got treated to that. I'm sorry to the entire reg line, even if I don't know the guy one bit or have any say over his costuming choices)

FURther CONfusion, or FC, is the 2nd largest furry con in existence. Last year was its 11th year. 2,587 registered attendees, 530 fursuiters in the parade. FC is held at the end of January. Anthrocon, in Pennsylvania, is the largest; last year was the (arguably) 11th year, with 3,776 attendees and a 640-suit parade. AC is held around July. And no, these aren't figures all furries know; I looked 'em up. I go to FC every year, and have since '06, and I don't even know. Especially if I'm IN the parade, since I don't get to see how long it is.

One thing I forgot to cover in my first post: furry drama. Yes, this is fairly separated from anti-furry bitching.

The fandom means many different combinations of things to many different people. Many of these seem to think 'those other guys' are taking it in the wrong direction, are ruining it for us guys or, on the flip side, are spoilsports who can't relax. So there's a fair bit of quiet (and occasionally not-so-quiet) infighting. Also, a large part of the fandom is comprised of nice people with severe social anxiety disorders, issues like Asperger Syndrome which can severely hamper the ability to function socially, etc. These can cause flare-ups as well. Last but not least, for some reason or other, there seem to be a number of furries who:
--Self-diagnose problems like Asperger and use it as a crutch, or a reason to bitch at people who "don't understand" (I personally have diagnosed Asperger, though years of work with a helpful psychologist have aided me in 99% hiding it - it is not a crutch and I don't use it as such as it affects my life so little now)
--Have bipolar, severe depression etc. and are not getting themselves aid, by consequence or even by choice, and who often snap peoples' heads off, freak out, have depressive or manic fits, etc.
--Claim to have bipolar, severe depression, etc. and use these as a reason to lash out, bitch at people, or try to gain attention and sympathy. If I had a dollar for every time someone has threatened to their fans (usually artists or writers) or friends that they're leaving the fandom forever...and then come back after the sympathy pours in, I'd be a very wealthy skunk.

I won't go into detailed background on any of this, but suffice to say it's common. The Something Awful and 4chan people love to, almost live to, provoke these people, but some of them need no provocation to have a hissyfit. Drama at cons is a common occurrence, but you probably won't notice it unless you really pay attention; it doesn't fill up the public zones. A lot of it remains behind closed doors. There is, however, one name that really rises above the rest as far as furry notoriety re: drama. I'll explain here just in case anyone wonders when furries mention it and all nod sagely, as though no more need be said.

Sibe. That's his furry name, Sibe D. Husky. His real name is well-known too, though. Sibe has issues. A number of furries have been duped by him, and I won't go into detail on this, save to say that he seems to enjoy being emotionally hurtful. What made him notorious was art theft.

Some furry artists have tried to make careers out of their art. Some of them, such as Adam Wan/Zaush, Kacey Miyagami, etc. have done a fairly good job at selling art. Many like Ken Sample, Nakira, Blotch (name for collaborative work of two artists, BlackTeagan and Kenket) and Japanese artists Dr. Comet and Trump, make their money selling art CDs. Others create pay-to-view adult art sites; Club Stripes, the story-based serial Pleasure Bon Bon and infamously copyright-insistant Jeremy Bernal's SexyFur, the original furry paysite, are examples. Bernal is really the end-all of these, going by the moniker of "evil art nazi" and actually threatening to sue websites that post his artwork. Sibe aimed to make pay-to-view art and art CDs available for free via P2P fileshare and, later, torrents.

Remember the cries of the Napster support factions? Most insisted that music should be freely available and that this would assist both artists and consumers both, and wanted artists to support this. And some did. Sibe isn't like that: His entire modus operandi was a very open and vocal "These people want to make a living doing this. I want to make sure they can't, so we'll try our best to ruin their plans. Let's piss people off and enjoy it!" He got in a fair bit of hot water, though I don't remember the details, and finally was shoved out of the biz, but suffice to say his infamy lives on. I've met the guy, once - he arrived at a local furmeet gathering at a shopping mall in an attempt to screw with a guy with a no-contact order against him; his masterly plan was to arrive before said person and, thus, force them to be unable to enter the mall. His attempts to convince mall security that said person was in the mall AND had threatened him with a firearm were unsuccessful. But having met him, I'll call him "intentionally annoying". I'm reminded of the scene in "Dumb & Dumber" where is used the line "Wanna hear the most annoying sound in the world?" For those who want more details - I'm not gonna go into the tabloid-ish stuff here - WikiFur, the furry wikipedia, has an extensive article on Sibe.

Edit: Was reading up myself, and found a great Sibe quote: "It's like I'm Napster, and greedy furry artists are Metallica". Oh, yes, Sibe, like so many of the artists make bucketloads of money off their art. <more sarcasm> There are very few who don't also have a day job. It's hard to make a living off furry art 100%.

I try my best not to get involved in drama... It really isn't all that difficult to do this. There are even artists who are so-called drama-whores, but whose art I like; I ignore the crap and enjoy the art. Even so, many furry artists are genuinely nice people, and will chat you up if you're at a con in the dealers' area. Steve Martin aside (no, not the comedian, but a furry artist known for being overly talkative, and for asking passerby "Hey! Wanna buy a naked bunny?") you can bet that people at their tables in the dealers' area will be friendly. So are at least 70% of the fandom: if you're nice, and ask questions with a little you're-on-the-spot edge as possible, you'll get answers. If anyone here has any questions about things they've heard about and/or seen in the fandom, I'll try'n answer 'em.

Incidentally, I wear a collar, fairly plain black leather with a tiny padlock on the front, all the time. Since I also usually wear a dress shirt and tie (I've always thought that if I own nice clothes, unless I'm doing yardwork there's no good reason not to wear them) I can tuck it down into my shirt collar if I want it hidden. If I don't mind the occasional odd looks, or are somewhere where I don't care, I leave it visible, and let the lock sit in front of my tie knot where it's out-of-the-way. The collar isn't related directly to my furry fandom side, and some of my characters, which I dress up like at cons (just the clothing, no ears or tails) don't wear a collar.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I like to wear cat ears sometimes, like at parties; there are no hyena ears, sadly, so cat ears are as close as it gets. I prefer to say that I have an animal "other"; sometimes, I feel mentally as tho I've changed into my other and I've dreamed of a full change happening. I'd never poke fun at people for wearing fursuits; as long as they're not using it to rob a bank, let them wear what they like.

[Rapscallion]

The fandom means many different combinations of things to many different people. Many of these seem to think 'those other guys' are taking it in the wrong direction, are ruining it for us guys or, on the flip side, are spoilsports who can't relax. So there's a fair bit of quiet (and occasionally not-so-quiet) infighting. Also, a large part of the fandom is comprised of nice people with severe social anxiety disorders, issues like Asperger Syndrome which can severely hamper the ability to function socially, etc. These can cause flare-ups as well. Last but not least, for some reason or other, there seem to be a number of furries who:
--Self-diagnose problems like Asperger and use it as a crutch, or a reason to bitch at people who "don't understand" (I personally have diagnosed Asperger, though years of work with a helpful psychologist have aided me in 99% hiding it - it is not a crutch and I don't use it as such as it affects my life so little now)
--Have bipolar, severe depression etc. and are not getting themselves aid, by consequence or even by choice, and who often snap peoples' heads off, freak out, have depressive or manic fits, etc.
--Claim to have bipolar, severe depression, etc. and use these as a reason to lash out, bitch at people, or try to gain attention and sympathy. If I had a dollar for every time someone has threatened to their fans (usually artists or writers) or friends that they're leaving the fandom forever...and then come back after the sympathy pours in, I'd be a very wealthy skunk.

I assume you're aware of this, but you just described pretty much every online community.

Rapscallion

[Skunkle]

Oh, yes, I'm quite aware. It's just that the Something Awful etc. goons (that's what the net-bullies there use as a self-blanket-term) play it up as though furry is the ass-end of the net and the only group so horribly afflicted. Actually, 90% of the problems with the oversexualized side of the fandom are shared by the anime fandom - furries catch far more flak for it because skimpily-dressed, big-eyed anime chicks getting attacked by hordes of tentacles is found hawt by loads of people who'd find a fox anthro getting banged by a cat anthro horrifying. *grin* But from what I know from friends, anime cons have a similar tendency to showcase extremely-overweight people who don't know the first thing about hygeine; anime fans just throw spandex into the mix.

Next year at my local fur con, I'm going to be handing out soap. Really. There's a shop near here that sells motel supplies. I'm going to buy a big huge case of generic soap. Then I'll make up two sets of labels and put one on each side. One will say something like "Zephyr brand Fur Soap: because skunks know soap!" The other will have instructions that hint without being direct that the user may not have encountered soap before, thus complete instructions, redundant to many people, might be necessary. Step 1 is "Remove your tail and ears. Remember, they DO come off!" I'll be handing these around. Last year at FC, similarly, there was a fursuiter hanging around in the hotel's elevator lobby, holding a large sign reading "Soap and water are your FURiends; please use them"

Lace Neil Singer, I'm bettin' I can find you some nice 'yena ears. Tell me what colors, how you prefer them (headband, elastic, hair combs, etc.) and what your price range is, and I'll ask around. I know some people who do suit stuff.

Anyone here on Fratching go to FC in San Jose? I'd love to know what occurred, or if anyone heard anything about, "Hot Fur". Backstory: Last year, my BF found a bunch of old floppies filled with furry art he was given back around 1996. We went through them, and there was a lot of eye-searingly horrid artwork, much of it X-rated. Stuff that was so bad it passed the "so bad it's funny" mark in a blur and came back around to awful again. We made up a small number of CDs filled with the abject worst, labeled them "Hot Fur" with some flowery prose describing the unbelievably hot art provided within for free, and hid these under stacks of fliers at various info tables at FC. They vanished quickly, but I never did hear any circulating rumors about the horrors within. I would, however, have loved to be a fly-on-the-wall when some lucky guy gathered his buds around his laptop, popped in the disc, and started paging through the contents.

OT: Raps, been readin' CS for years now. Always love your posts.

[Rapscallion]

OT: Raps, been readin' CS for years now. Always love your posts.

Me too.

What? What? I'm an expert in self-love...

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

Thanks, Skunkle, for taking the time to post about this! I know someone posted about a doctoral thesis....in all seriousness, I have a feeling that 'online communities' are the next hot topic for academics. A friend of mine is already researching performative aspects of pen-and-paper role playing games versus online rpgs. Performing 'identities' could be the next step.

[Skunkle]

As much as furries don't want to be harassed for what they do, at the same time I think they'd feel uncomfortable being classified, detailed, categorized etc. by a specific study. Still, yes, examination would be interesting.

It's probably a little bit difficult get an objective view or "slice" of the fandom, since there are plenty of net nuts who'll pretend to be furries just to slip in lots of misinformation. Non-furries aside, there are a fair numbewr of people who count themselves furries who'll do the same thing, for the reason, it is said, that everything is done on the 'net: "For the lulz". Just for laughs, i.e. because said people find it funny.

Again, if anyone has fandom questions, I'll answer them if I know the answer. If I don't, I'll at least try to find one.

By the way, where's your icon from, Raps? I've been reading CS for so long (since back in the Mr. Slugger days) that that image pops into my head whenever I hear the word 'rapscallion'.

[Rapscallion]

I commissioned some cartoon strips from Jennie from before I took over the site to deal with some of the tales I experienced. That's from 'Irony Girl'.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

It's probably a little bit difficult get an objective view or "slice" of the fandom, since there are plenty of net nuts who'll pretend to be furries just to slip in lots of misinformation. Non-furries aside, there are a fair numbewr of people who count themselves furries who'll do the same thing, for the reason, it is said, that everything is done on the 'net: "For the lulz". Just for laughs, i.e. because said people find it funny.

Well, and I'm guessing here, since this will start in sociology/anthropology and not my field (Performing Arts), but the majority of the research will initially be done at cons. Good researchers who use the internet use it very carefully, and I have confidence that the anthropologists who do the ground work will sort out who's doing it for the 'lulz.' They would be looking at the why's and how's, if there are any common denominators amongst those in the fandom, and so on. They wouldn't be trying to classify or set aside people so much as to understand what it's all about and what the greater social implications are, if any.

Plus, in a realistic sense, there is incredible pressure on all academics to be up-to-date and in the know. Publish or perish, as the old saying goes.

From a performative aspect, if I were doing this study, it is interesting to see people not only associate with a particular animal but to wear pieces of that persona, whether that is fursuits or ears and tails. Hm. Now....if I were to do this would I go psycho-analytic (Freud/Lacan)? Or Postmodern? What would Foucault do?

That last paragraph is entirely rhetorical - as I'm primarily a historian and this just ain't my thing. BUT, it will happen. Rule 34 of academia is that 'If it exists, someone is writing their dissertation on it.'

[Kheldarson]

Heck, you could do a temperament study on it if you wanted. Yay psychology?

I'd like to add my thanks too Skunkle. Helps me understand a friend of mine a bit better.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I PMed you, Skunkle. ^^

I also like anthro art; hell, I used to draw it myself, back when I had a lot more spare time. XD Plus, it's all linked to the Sonic fandom (now, what could possibly have given me away as a fan? :D) which also is linked to RPs and fanfic. Trust me, there is a lot of squicky anthro fanfic; and not just in Sonic, either. O_o

[Skunkle]

Glad to help people a lil' bit. Again, per the OP, it's not unusual for furries to start out defensive, simply because the bad word has gotten around the 'net so thickly that it'd be easy to pick ye random forum, walk in, out yourself as a furry, and be avalanched with flames. And despite this, many furries do still out themselves, as it's seen as a facet of your life; if others want to bash you, fine, but you're happy with who/what you are.

A lot of furries, I'd say a good 8 out of 10, have a "fursona", one or more - characters who (choose one or more) represent:
--who they are, with similar interests, abilities, clothing, mannerisms, etc.
--who they wish they were.
--what they believe to be their true, hidden self.
--a soul facet, sort of the "I'm a fox trapped in a human body" thing
--and/or simply, a fantasy persona, for no reason other than entertainment.
Many of those who don't have what they'd call a fursona/fursonae have one or more 'characters' which fall under the last classification: just fantasy critters, made for fun.

It's popular and fun for many to have art drawn of their characters, roleplay as their characters, and/or fursuit as their characters, the latter being a fun way to feel as though you ARE your character for a short time. As noted, I have suited, and I can say that vthere's a kind of disconnection when you're in-suit. You're playing a role, and you're best when you try to BE the role. Forget about who you are out of the suit, pretend you ARE the character, lean into it, and you'll soon find that yes, you temporarily ARE the character. The world sort of disappears, and you just enjoy yourself. I've suited and been forced to go out in 80-degree sun (boo hotel, booking a wedding same weekend as the con and giving the only suit-parade timeslot same as the wedding procession, necessitating it ending up outside - in LA - in June!) and, even after being outside for half an hour, going back inside after and spending another half-hour in-suit. Whenever I needed a quick break I'd duck into a lounge, pull off the head for a minute, and keep going.

That con (Califur 09) was notable in that there was a reporter in the indoor after-parade gathering space, who claimed to be trying to do a truly objective report on the fandom. And though I haven't seen any article yet, she was very friendly and obviously had very good intentions. I sat and discussed suiting with her for a bit; brought up the notion she'd already heard where there's a politely-held suspension of disbelief wherein you, say Joe Blow, and your suited character, Joe Fox, are considered different entities - and, in this vein, how it's traditionally held that suiters don't reveal who's in the suit or take off their heads in public and spoil the illusion. I do talk in-suit, whereas most suiters don't, as my suit's jaw moves with mine, and I have a very different persona while suiting. After going over all this and reaffirming what she'd heard, in front of her cameraman I took off my head, explained how it worked, and she held the camera while her cameraman put it on and tried it himself. Very fun and interesting. Other suiters talked with her, too, though I don't think any of them took their heads off which is understandable. WEre another reporter or interviewer to approach me at a con and show visibly that they have the right idea of being really open-minded, I'd probably do the same thing again.

Oh, yes: why don't I have a Zephyr Skunk suit? I'm 30. Zephyr is 14. And skunk tails are very hard to make, since they're supposed to stand up and be big and fluffy. The best I've seen is Fractal Squirrel, whose squirrel suit tail is an inflatable form covered in fuzzy flocking; he covered in in spray adhesive, hooked it to a Van De Graaff generator, and used the high-voltage static cling to pull flocking onto it evenly. Even so, that's difficult stuff to keep up. It was far easier to do a cat tail and have it sway nicely as I walk, and Scott Sierra the jag-you-are is my age. I'll be at a Washington (the west-coast one) Con in September, wearing my suit. Should anyone think they'd want to chat with a suiter about what it's like, or try on a suit head for fun, drop me a note, I'd be happy to chat up anyone who's friendly and genuinely interested.

Edit: Squickly fanfic? Oh, yes, there's tons of that, in every fandom. We have the Trekkies to thank for starting slash fic.

For anyone confused by the term, slash: fan fiction where the writer pairs two male characters and introduces romance, sex, angst, or more likely, all three. The original idea of slash was to pair two straight characters who, even if gay, would still never get together without the writer's help; the original slash pairing was Kirk/Spock. I don't read much of any kind of fanfic, but there's some good stuff and some Lovecraftian horrors out there, all right.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I adore slash if it's well written, not squicky and researched well. XD If you want some fanfic horrors, I can link you to a sporking site. XD

Re the Sonic fandom; I tend to favour the Sonic/Shadow pairing. XD What? They'd make a great couple, and you know it. :D

[Skunkle]

Sporking? I knlow I'd be interested in reading some bad fanfic or really poorly-chosen crossovers that were NOT written to be bad, but simply bad writers/bad choices. I've *heard* of some really distant, unrelated crossovers that shouldn't work (and probably don't).

Speaking of fanfic, did anyone ever figure out whether "My Immortal", at least the original 'chapters', were a troll or not? There were so many reasons to believe she had to be, and yet so many reasons she seemed to be genuine. Those were horribly funny. Yes, I managed to read them all. I can wade through the dyslexic-ness pretty well and read the terribly botched plot attempts.

For any not aware: "My Immortal" = (a), a sad song by Evanescence, or (b) a really bizarre and awful attempt at Harry Potter fanfic by a claimed-dyslexic, containing what may be the worst Mary Sue (author self-insertion character who usually usurps the entire plot) ever written. The entirety of the HP world becomes a bitchfight between the only two possible types of people the author seems to know exist, "goths" and "preps", along with drinking blood, faux-satanism, Evanescence concerts (in Hogsmeade RIGHT NOW!) and various main chartacters turned badly into perverts, preppies, vampires and nutjobs. If you can wade through the constantly-changing misspellings, it's a laugh and a half, and no one's been sure whether it was written tongue-in-cheek or not. Incomplete, the "last chapter" (16 I think?) was slapped on by some random person, making a mockery - not difficult - of the rest.

Sorry 'bout the long OT. Back to our regularly-scheduled furry program.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Well, the author of My Immortal has many accounts all over the web; that's a hell of a lot of work for a troll to do. XD

Sporking is when you take a section of badfic and insert text every so often to point out how awful it is. XD Here's the link to said site; it's worth looking thru the history as there are some terrible fics sporked: http://community.livejournal.com/deleterius/

Oh yeah, and scroll down a little to find the worst crossover ever; Sonic/LOTR. How could anyone think that would work? XD

Anyways, back to furries. XD I tend to call my hyena persona my "other"; it tends not to throw up quite so many negative reactions.

[Skunkle]

Wow... Looked at parts of the Sonic/LOTR one. Ouch. My head hurts. And somewhere, a blue hedgehog is weeping.

I just call them "characters", since none of them are me at all, really. And they're such a disparate bunch. List includes (with notes as to art)
--Sir Berry Woodthorn - European Badger, age 60, massive, muscular, 9' 4" (ouch), pipe organ builder. Had a BIG sketch of him from Ken Sample aka Cougr, who does nice muscle. The only full-size art I've gotten of a personal character.
--Zephyr Skunk - Striped skunk, standard black-and-white. His surname is actually Skunk, despite his adoptive parents being cats. Age 14, plays jazz/blues piano for fun. Rough baritone voice (think Eeeyore) with maybe a six-note range at most. Got the obligatory Marci McAdam conbadge of Zephyr.
--Scott Sierra - Jaguar. Spottymew, err...Scottymew? Scott fixes amusement rides for a living, mostly coasters. The character grew out beyond the suit, which itself was based on the first nice suit I ever saw, way before I found furry: Jam the jaguar on the Fox US transplant of bizarre Brazillian popstar/kids' show XUXA. An artist called Bagheera did a b/w badge of Scott, and saw me in-suit while drawing it.
Alyssa Kamber - Kitten, age 8. Tan fur, white feathered wings. Shifter: can change fur/eye color, body form, species etc. Cannot be older than her current age or change gender. Cute, happy, bouncy, kitteny goodness. EDIT: Plays bass. Upright and electric. Bass kitten, yay. Obligatory adorable Marci badge of 'Lyssa, but also have a beautiful badge by Aja Williams/Kamicheetah. Don't see a way to add images here, but I know that's not what this board is really for.
Edit: How could I forget Midnight? Lutrai!! Ottery goodness. Officially greenlighted by Ollie Canal, who's a really great guy all-around, from what I found. Midnight SkyStar is his conventional-sounding name based on his tribal name which translates to "night sky star". Lutrai are fun. Many locals in the fandom still call me Midnight, and most don't seem to be going with the transition to Zephyr as a more common handle.

Hey Lace... What's the UK furry scene like?

One more edit: The Elf and the Witch is painful, too. Ow.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Nonexistant as far as I know; which is why I go on the internet. XD Just like there are few rock fans around my neck of the woods.

And yeah, that fic is painful to read; the sporking makes it better. XD I could go on for ages on how the only thing that made Sonic Next Gen bearable was Mephiles and his penchant for evil laughter.

[Amanita]

Skunkle, I've enjoyed reading your comments, they've been extremely well written and insightful. I've got a good friend who's a furry, and even he laughs at the idea of fursuit sex or plushophilia.

[Skunkle]

Well, zoophilia (sex with animals) no. But the fandom has loads of plushophilia (using plushies as sex partners or sex toys). Furries begat the term 'SPH' (look it up. Or don't). There's a big difference here, though, between a plushie as a sex aid and a life animal. And fursuit sex, I don't really lump in with plushophilia - there are crossover connections, sure, but most fetishes cross-connect to at least some other(s).

The bad face of furries-as-plushophiles was a person called Plush-She, who posted many, many photos of herself 'playing' with a Pepe LePew plush endowed with a large male sex toy. She soon realized they were a bad plan and yanked 'em, but not before they spread like wildfire. They're still out there somewhewre, I'm sure; I've never gone hunting, but every so often I run into some on some or other forum. Usually they're used to spam a furry art thread in hopes of killing the sex drive that made the viewer browse the thread in the first place, but that's often taken to extremes with some very gory, disturbing stuff too.

One such spammer, filling up a fur porn thread on some imageboard with very bloody stuff, was asked once if he LIKED all the gore he was posting. His reply: "Nope. I just like killing your arousal. It's fun" ...to fuck with people. The mantra of the anonymous.

[Amanita]

Oh, I've heard of SPH- Some of the furs that my friend knew were real fur-verts.

As for the trolls, people like that just embody the internet dickwad theory. Anonymous person+internet=total dickwad

[Skunkle]

LOL @ furverts. Modified plushies, Steve Martin folios, and a few Thor jokes for good measure.

I own all of one X-rated commission, and it's hanging in a spot visitors never see - on the back of my bedroom door. I do have some art on display, but nothing the least bit 'adult'. Non-furs, though, have no idea how odd it is to see Marci McAdam's art of someone's adorable kid Kimba the white lion 'sona next to a large watercolor of Roz Gibson's Jack Salem, looking particularly malicious as only Salem can. (Another picture of Salem looking friendly hung nearby notwithstanding - I told Roz when recieving it "I don't want to know what makes him this happy, do I?" She said "No. No, you probably don't") Besides those and a print of Gibson's otter species watercolor, I don't have much where the average visitor sees; my badges are on the wall in my bedroom though.

And yes. It seems to be that a random guy who might be quite amiable in person can easily turn into an utter dick when suddenly set down behind a computer; the fact that anonymity is almost guaranteed gives way to countless nasty actions the person would never do to another person face-to-face. In many cases, I think that's letting out their true self. In at least some, though, I believe they just let the headrush that is anonymity hit them too hard, try to have some fun, and get carried away.