What's going on at CS, lately?

[DesignFox]

I don't know if it's just me, but I've noticed a lot more thread shutdowns recently.

People seem to have gotten either very aggressive or overly sensitive over at CS. I mean, if someone doesn't agree with the opinion of someone else, or someone tries to give another person advice, things just seem to blow up!

What the hell? I thought we were all on the same team?!

I don't understand why some of the members get all bent out of shape when they post their situations on a public forum and someone disagrees with something they did. Geez. I thought the whole purpose was to get varying opinions on the subject, take a minute to vent and learn how to handle situations better in future.

Am I crazy? I just feel like a see "thread closed" more often than when I first started...(I do have a tendency to read them to see why it was closed down, but that might stop because it's getting kind of depressing).

It's just making me sad, because the respect we have for one another is what makes CS stand apart from other online communities. I really don't want us to lose that.

[ArenaBoy]

It's not just you because I've noticed it. Some posters tend to disagree with EVERY and I mean EVERYTHING. There could be data provided and it could be backed by the most respected source and they'd still disagree. There are also posters who are oversensitive to a point that even a simple hello might set them off. From most forums I post on there many people who just read the post and fire off what's on their head instantly. Really all it takes is the following: Read, breathe, think and I mean think, then reply.

But take heart though, those posters will end up either A: A moderated poster and from what I've noticed most of them never come back. or B: Banned. All I can say is as long as we just keep to what makes the site great

[Rapscallion]

We got more popular after the hits from Reddit and Fark, as well as the continued interest from StumbleUpon. Most of the people that logged in from that are normal people, but not all. Also, what gets linked on those sites gets linked on others.

We do what we can to steer conversations back to where it's safe, but sometimes the water gets too turbulent. Closing threads does mean more people look at them to see what went on, which serves a more public purpose than deleting them. Usually the original post is fine and it got taken off the rails by others.

Sometimes people take the hints we drop. When they don't, we have to act. I just wish we didn't have to.

Rapscallion

[Ree]

I think we are getting a lot of newer members with pretty radical ideas about the customer as the enemy...period!!!

That is not meshing well with the 'regulars' who have been around and know that we are about a lot more than just bashing customers for the sake of bashing them.

The majority of our members know that there are also sucky employees, and a lot of these newer people fall into that category, but don't want to admit that.

They are hotheads, and to be honest, it's their own attitudes that create the problems they are venting about.
Yes, the site is for venting, but as I said earlier today in one of the threads, just before I closed it, we are not going to sit by and let that type of stuff go uncorrected. If we can help the person to see that small changes in their attitude or approach can make things easier for them in the end, then we are going to do just that.

Because, as I said, they are hotheads, that doesn't sit well with them either, and, not knowing that this place is not run like other forums, they go on a defensive rant and strike out.

We only close a thread if we cannot see any type of resolution to get it back on track. If, after a mod has stepped in, we continue to see more posts harping on the points, that's when we hit it with the closed button.
We only do it as a last resort, and we never do it lightly.

[DesignFox]

Well, I appreciate you doing it. I'm not appalled by the moderators' actions- I'm appalled by the behavior of the people causing it!

And yes, I read the thread I believe you are referring to, Ree. I wholeheartedly agreed with your response, and I am very glad you wrote it.

I am one of those service people that genuinely enjoys working with the public. I think that if someone dislikes people that much, they shouldn't be working in retail. It's the few people like that that make the rest of us look terrible. I don't like to give people any reason to feel like they should treat service workers like crap...sentiments like that person's give us all a bad name. I also don't want to see the CS site degrade into that...If that many people are reading our stories and visiting, I want them to see how genuine, real people try to cope with their very real and difficult jobs. I want customers to see us as humans and take us seriously- not add fuel to the sucky person's fire. I truly believe that people are good, and that some people, when called on their rudeness, genuinely see the error of their ways and change.

I guess it just upsets me to see so many people coming to the site with such poor attitudes. I'm glad it is being taken care of, and I hope the tide will turn back to normal soon enough. I also hope that if any non-retail customers are reading it, they will see that we service workers do not condone suckiness from fellow employees!

[AFPheonix]

It may very well be the time of year, too. We're just out of the Christmas rush, those of us in health professions are dealing with full swing cold-and-flu, and I'm sure seasonal affectedness disorder is running rampant amongst our more northern brethren. I notice I'm a little crankier this time of year, too.

[Greenday]

Even in that one thread about some guy who refused to pull over for the cops, then when he did, the cops sicked a dog on him and he jumped off the bridge, nearly killing him and killing the dog. Everyone says poor dog, which I agreed with. But everyone looked at him as just trying to kill the dog. I pointed out that if the guy just wanted to kill the dog, he wouldn't have jumped off the bridge. It was obvious he was trying to kill himself, and since the dog was trained not to let go, the dog went with him. I immediately got responses of hostility over that for being so sensitive about the guy who jumped.

When stuff like that happens, I just leave the thread and don't respond. Things will only get more heated by responding and then it'll get closed.

I have noticed that a lot of the new people joining are extremely radical with their posts and actions with customers. It's actually rather appalling, some of the stuff. Not used to seeing it. These seem to be the people that give the rest of us a bad name.

[BlaqueKatt]

I immediately got responses of hostility over that for being so sensitive about the guy who jumped.


I feel you there Greenday, I once made the "mistake" at a previous job of showing compassion for a school shooter-what they did was wrong yes I fully believe that-but how long did it take to get to that breaking point? How much torment-no one cares anymore-people have gotten too thin skinned where it doesn't matter(being offended way too easily), and too thick skinned or calloused if you will toward people that are truly suffering.

I think allot of it has to do with the "entitlement mentality"-and that just sickens me. Does anyone know or care about the kids in Nigeria that were killed by a large well known US pharmaceutical company? No we all just know about the scammers from Nigeria trying to steal hard-earned "American"* money. Maybe if we didn't flaunt our 5 tv sets, 300 channels of cable or satellite, $300 ipods, and $400 Ugg boots, while they don't even have running water or electricity in their houses-or maybe instead of getting that new mp3 player, sent the money to a non-profit that actually helps them, Maybe they wouldn't feel justified in doing it. Americans have allot more freedom than some countries, I just wish the freedom to be a self-absorbed, arrogant, cold-hearted, prick wasn't the freedom that many seem to be choosing.

sorry got kinda carried away in my half rant there-so I think I'll end with my favorite saying-

"The world owes you nothing, it was here first."


*I only sy American because they whine the most.

[horror]

To be honest, I've considered leaving CS.
I came over to Fratching a while ago but never posted. Today I thought I would skim the posts and when I saw this one I couldn't help but jump on it.
The way some people behave on CS is ridiculous, and I especially dislike the fact that some mods react to drama by responding to the posters like they're children. This "spelling out" of the rules, so to speak, essentially makes one feel like they've just been sent to the corner and scolded in front of the entire class.
Call me dramatic if you must, but it's no secret that the majority of regular posters are known among one another in at least some small way, so scolding a member in a thread is really a dick move on the mods part.
They want us to take arguments to PMs if we must, so why can't mods make PMs to users who have crossed the line, rather than making it public?

Not only that, I have a particular problem with the general demeanor of one mod. I find this individual rude, condescending and snide. But what am I to do? PM them? And then what?
Nothing.
Should I say something in a post when I feel like they've crossed a line like they would to me?
Of course not, because that would be diverting from the OP and I would promptly be told so and reminded that any other topic be brought here, to Fratching.

Perhaps not everyone who is modding should be modding. But that's just one little wee opinion that won't change anything.

Overall posting on CS and even reading CS has become far less enjoyable, mostly due to the people's attitude. I think people should either shape up or ship out (or be forced out).
Personally I seem to be leaning more towards the "ship out" option.
Though I'm sure many will view that as an, "I'M NEVER SHOPPING HERE AGAIN!" remark. Oh well.

[Rapscallion]

Where do I start with this one?

If you have a problem with a moderator, you contact me with specifics. Actually, that was an easy start.

Why do we sometimes tell people in public? I've just come over from CS where we told someone via PM and requested a 'read receipt' - they haven't even bothered checking their PMs over the last two weeks. This is not uncommon.

Spelling out the rules in public? As above, people don't often read the rules or PMs sent, but also it serves as a good reminder to others as to why we say something.

Regular posters? Sure, they're known to each other. Ever wondered how many people aren't established and regular? We average roughly five new registrations per day. Most don't post, some do, and a few stay with us to become regular posters - churn happens.

Thread drift happens to take topics off topic, which isn't so bad. If you see a thread with a Fratching warning in it, it's something we know that's going to end up in a fight.

As to the rules themselves, I do intend trimming them down. Their very size puts people off reading them. However, the moderators are there to steer people towards following the rules, and if they don't take the hint then they have to act.

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

And if you have a problem with Raps and don't want to bring it up to him, talk to one of us mods. Raps knows that everyone - including him - makes mistakes at times, and he respects us mods and will listen to us.

That said, ultimately it is Raps' bat and ball. If you have a problem with the fundamental aspects of Customers' Suck and/or Fratching, maybe you'd enjoy some other part of the net better.

But if you like what CS and Fratching are about, but just think we could be running it better: we're willing to listen, and we will discuss concerns that are brought to us. We will change the rules or the way we work if we think the new idea is better; and we do accept that we're all human and could do things better. Okay?

[horror]

Why do we sometimes tell people in public? I've just come over from CS where we told someone via PM and requested a 'read receipt' - they haven't even bothered checking their PMs over the last two weeks. This is not uncommon.

Spelling out the rules in public? As above, people don't often read the rules or PMs sent, but also it serves as a good reminder to others as to why we say something.

Some people also don't check back threads for some time after they've said their piece.
In all, I don't find it necessary to reprimand posters in threads. I don't know how many people will agree with this analogy, but would you want your boss reprimanding you in front of your coworkers or customers, or would you prefer that s/he do it in private?

And if you have a problem with Raps and don't want to bring it up to him, talk to one of us mods. Raps knows that everyone - including him - makes mistakes at times, and he respects us mods and will listen to us.
In all honesty I don't feel comfortable speaking to any of the mods, since there seems to be an ego with them, in that the way some (not ALL) of them post is as though they know they have more power than the rest of us.
I don't know how mods were chosen, if it was at random, by measure of longevity on the forums, if they're personal friends of Raps or what, but personally I wouldn't mind seeing some new mods around CS.

[Rapscallion]

Some people also don't check back threads for some time after they've said their piece.
In all, I don't find it necessary to reprimand posters in threads. I don't know how many people will agree with this analogy, but would you want your boss reprimanding you in front of your coworkers or customers, or would you prefer that s/he do it in private?


Even if they don't check back, it's not just for them. As to being unprofessional, I'm certainly not making any money out of this - it's hard to be professional when it's a hobby. Most of it is done in private, though - we only resort to public when we feel we have to.


In all honesty I don't feel comfortable speaking to any of the mods, since there seems to be an ego with them, in that the way some (not ALL) of them post is as though they know they have more power than the rest of us.
I don't know how mods were chosen, if it was at random, by measure of longevity on the forums, if they're personal friends of Raps or what, but personally I wouldn't mind seeing some new mods around CS.

The choice is made when we think we need more moderators due to turnover or increase in how busy the forum is. We discuss amongst ourselves who we think would be good based on their posting history, and then I make an offer to those we decide on. I won't force anyone to be a moderator against their will. Posting as if they have an ego/power? Some moderators only have time to moderate, not enjoy the site - so they're usually dealing with situations where they have to be a moderator rather than Joe Member.

As to making mistakes, I admit that sometimes I do. I recently wondered if I'd made a mistake buying and maintaining the site and I was seriously considering selling it. Of course, any new owner probably would put adverts on the board, probably wouldn't commission a weekly cartoon, but I'd be able to pay off my mortgage faster...

I'm not just saying the above to throw in your face that I pay the bills so I make the final, big decisions, but that is part of it. The buck stops with me, so I have to make the final decisions. I do however had a rule - I don't always take advice, but I will always listen to it if offered in good spirit. I admit that I'm an amateur doing this for a hobby - were I a professional, I'd be trying to make money at the job, and it would be a job. A second job? Extra stress.

I'll make you an offer. Start up a forum about something other than what customerssuck.com is about. Advertise it in Check it Out. Alternatively get on the admin/moderator side of a board that is different to CS. Again, you have my permission to post an advert for it in Check it Out. After six months, if it's an active forum, come back and tell me what you think then.

I moved from small-time forum ownership (a good day saw maybe fifty posts) to CS.com, which is far larger (currently getting roughly six hundred posts a day). The difference is astounding.

Rapscallion

[Ree]

I agree with horror that mods reprimanding members on the board is a dick thing to do.
In fact, it used to be the rule among the mods on the old board, when I was first appointed a mod by the former owner all those years ago, that we didn't call people out in public. If the members were expected to take it to PM, then so were we.

The thing is, many members feel as Raps does that the rules are too long, so they don't bother to read them.
Sometimes, we have to come across as looking like a dick to get a message across.
We could handle it all hush hush and behind the scenes in PM, and then that member knows what they did wrong, but then, often, another member will repeat the very same thing within the day, or at least within the same week.

Sometimes, it's the easier way to just post a message in the thread so, even if that member never comes back to read it, at least others, perhaps a newbie or two, will read it and know what not to do.

Often, if I make a public message, I do follow it up with a PM. Sometimes I just don't bother, or I forget.
I recall one incident, last spring, I think, when a member who had only been with the site for about a month, made a post and was promptly attacked by another member. For some unknown reason that member had taken exception to the complaint that the OP was making, and didn't feel the customer was being sucky, but felt, in fact, that the OP was being a total nitpicky bitch.

I chose to handle that one behind the scenes in PM.
The OP never had any idea that I had gone to bat for her.
I had so much verbal abuse heaped on me by the offending member that I was literally shaking after I read my PM's from her.

At the time, I thought, "This person doesn't even know me. Who is she to call me those names and say those horrible things about me?" I also remember thinking, "Holy crap!!! I come here for fun and because I love this site. I am, in effect, a volunteer, who moderates to keep this place that I love running smoothly. I really don't have to take this garbage."

The thing that hurt most of all, though, was that the member for whom I had gone to bat and had been treated so cruelly as a result, then turned around and trashed me not too much later, and has continued to do so repeatedly.
I am only human, and stuff like that hurts.

Maybe if I had taken my reprimand public, that member might have felt a little differently about me.

I have no problem with a member PM'ing me when they think I have acted badly.
There have been some who did approach me, and I think they were a little surprised that they got an apology from me. In some cases, it even resulted in a retraction or an edit to remove the comments.
In other cases, the member and I came to an understanding and I developed a greater respect for them.

I am not perfect, and I am the first to admit I make a lot of mistakes.

Like I said, though, I'm just a volunteer.

[MadMike]

To add to what Raps and the other mods said, an unmoderated board is not all it's cracked up to be. I've been to one.

It was a nice place at first, and I made a few friends, some of which I'm still in contact with to this day. Unfortunately, it was completely unsecured and unmoderated. There was no login, you just filled out your name and your message, so there was nothing to stop anyone from pretending to be someone else, which some people started doing. Then it went on to people trolling and flooding the board. Interestinly enough, we didn't get a whole lot of spam, if any.

Some of us long-time regulars tried to convince the owner to appoint moderators, and even offered to help with that, but it fell on deaf ears. Eventually, he just gave up and shut the message board down.

[Rapscallion]

Oddly enough, the DP forum is mostly unmoderated. There's me, Jennie (she's admin, but doesn't really do any of the moderating), and Sehson who deal with any problems, but there rarely are any. In the five years or so since I started that one, I reckon we've had to ban one member (trolled on other forums before joining that one) and had to cut down one member thread when he went really off the rails. This is ignoring the spammers, of course.

Mind you, they play far rougher over there. The rules are simple - respect your fellow forumers - and I only really brought them in fairly recently. However, the folk there are often gamers/larpers and have access to quite a bit of replica weaponry - possibly something in what Rahmota says about an armed society being a polite one. We're very protective of each other, though the community has grown up together for the most part, rather than a new member being lost in a sea of fresh posts.

It's a very different place. I find the way they work fascinating.

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

if they're personal friends of Raps or what, but personally I wouldn't mind seeing some new mods around CS.

Everything Raps knows about me, he's learned on the boards.

And Broomjockey, PuckishOne and I became mods about a month ago. It's difficult to get newer than us.

[horror]

Everything Raps knows about me, he's learned on the boards.

And Broomjockey, PuckishOne and I became mods about a month ago. It's difficult to get newer than us.
"New" isn't necessarily in relation to the longevity of someone's time as mod. "New" also refers to "different".
Some mods who have been there for quite a while, like Ree, do a great job.
I just don't feel that a couple mods should hold that position, mostly because of the way they speak to, and treat, other members. I know Raps has the "I pay the bills, I make the rules" kind of final decision, but if this is a situation where input is being taken from members then maybe there's a new way to choose mods.
At the moment the only thing that comes to mind is perhaps making a poll including all mods, asking who members would like to see remaining in their position, as well as allowing members to nominate others for the position, should one or two people be found unsuitable by the masses.
Naturally Raps would still have the very final say, but at least it would allow a greater input from everyone.
Now obviously a thread asking who should go and who should replace the mods would get heated at some point, so I wonder if it's possible to make all comments and poll results private, so that only the creator of the post can see what is being said. If it's not, okay, but if it is possible then why not?
So long as people gave good reasons why they think Mr. or Mrs. X should be appointed mod in place of someone else, I don't think that's terribly unreasonable.

[Rapscallion]

A poll? Undermine the mods and cause them paranoia? Can't see that happening.

If people want to feed back directly to me, my inbox is always open.

Rapscallion

[horror]

A poll? Undermine the mods and cause them paranoia? Can't see that happening.


I don't see how a poll where the only person who is able to view the results (potentially) is the creator of said poll would be undermining anyone, or causing them paranoia. It's not as though if someone were to hypothetically say something bad about one of the mods they, and other members, would see it.
Of course this is all based on the possibility of making all results and comments private.
This is also not an attack on individuals, but not everyone truly feels comfortable with confrontation, and the ability to simply choose an option in a poll would be far more comfortable for those people.

[blas87]

With all due respect, the mods are mods for a reason and I highly doubt that starting a poll to attempt to eliminate one in particular that you don't like will be successfull at all. In fact, it will just stir up controversy and hurt feelings. Despite the fact that we are all behind a computer, we are still human beings with feelings, and CS.com is not one of those sites where you are allowed to bash others and make everyone feel insignificant.

I'm not a mod, but I do feel inclined to say, if you have such a problem with moderators or how they run the site, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to stay. They are as fair as they possibly can be, I don't see how creating a poll or trying to get rid of certain mods will help anything at all.

[Pedersen]

I don't see how a poll where the only person who is able to view the results (potentially) is the creator of said poll would be undermining anyone, or causing them paranoia. It's not as though if someone were to hypothetically say something bad about one of the mods they, and other members, would see it.

You're absolutely 100% correct in this opinion, horror. In fact, I'm going to do my own poll on this real quick:

-----------------------------
Everybody, your attention please: Here's the poll question of the day:

Is horror right, and polls are a great idea for determining if mods should be kept or not?

Or is horror wrong, and polls shouldn't happen?

Please PM me with your opinions on this. Don't worry, I won't tell anybody else (including horror) what you have to say. As such, please feel free to say anything you wish in the PM as relates to horror having a good idea or a bad idea.

I'll summarize the results and post the summary in 3 days.
-----------------------------

Yep, nothing like a good old fashioned poll to find out what people are thinking without impacting the mood of anybody being discussed in the poll, right horror?

I mean, as you yourself have just pointed out, this shouldn't be undermining, or causing any paranoia, right?

[ArenaBoy]

I take it you obviously don't like the way things are run. No one's forcing you to stay at CS at all. You don't like some of the mods, understandable but I like them. You want new mods, keep in mind that this is Raps' site and he can do what he likes. The users who became mods were picked because Raps knew that they have a good posting history and are level headed; not because some watery tart lobbed a sword at them. I've never had a problem with them at all. I might disagree with them but I never have a problem with them.

About the poll: Yes, let's cause paranoia and hurt people's feelings because of a few things one person doesn't agree with. Let's give our opinion even though Raps has the final say. It'll be great. Again. Raps chose them for a reason.

You don't like one of the mods because of the way they treat other members, I've seen worse mods on other forums who were under the belief that just because they were a mod that everything they said was right. That mod you mentioned might be posting in a "rude manner" because he/she might be just sick and tired of seeing threads turn into arguments, or only has time to be mod and not Normal Person.

Again, you want to leave. Leave. No one's stopping you from leaving. People come and go anyway. No one's forcing you to stay.

Also, I've been a member of CS since July of 2006. Like DesignFox said things have changed and while I like the fact that we're linked in some way and while it brings new posters who become regulars, it usually brings along idiots who tend to snap at the slightest objection and offend the regulars. I had to deal with a poster like that on a Chelsea board and he damn near ruined that board. We all just decided to make an effort to put him on ignore. It worked and he hasn't popped up in a while. The mods have to be strict for a reason.

Here's what the mod said to this problem poster and would somewhat reflect Raps' attitude.

This forum is not a democracy. Its a dictatorship. We make sure the threads and posts run on time. I don't even claim to be particularly benevolent.
However, we are not without sympathy. If you wish to rail against the perceived injustices done to you, you may do so from somewhere else. Because, like it or not, you don't have any "freedom" or "democracy" here. This isn't an organized system of government. Its a community. Its a community that has evolved over a long number of years. Some members have come and some have gone. But it remains. And if you want to be a part of that, you should play by its rules. And if you don't, then no one forces you to post here.

[horror]

You're absolutely 100% correct in this opinion, horror. In fact, I'm going to do my own poll on this real quick:

-----------------------------
Everybody, your attention please: Here's the poll question of the day:

Is horror right, and polls are a great idea for determining if mods should be kept or not?

Or is horror wrong, and polls shouldn't happen?

Please PM me with your opinions on this. Don't worry, I won't tell anybody else (including horror) what you have to say. As such, please feel free to say anything you wish in the PM as relates to horror having a good idea or a bad idea.

I'll summarize the results and post the summary in 3 days.
-----------------------------

Yep, nothing like a good old fashioned poll to find out what people are thinking without impacting the mood of anybody being discussed in the poll, right horror?

I mean, as you yourself have just pointed out, this shouldn't be undermining, or causing any paranoia, right?

hahahaha I look forward to reading the results. Don't forget to let me know when they're in.

[DesignFox]

I, personally, don't have any problems with any of the mods.

I don't see any reason for polling or voting. I don't watch the forum nearly as closely as Raps does, or any of the more active mods do. In fact, sometimes I disappear for a few days. Who would I be to decide who should be a mod and who shouldn't? I don't see all the things they do behind the scenes...I imagine that their job is pretty tough.

I've learned in retail- don't bash on the manager until you try to do the job yourself... you'll be in for a rude awakening. Managing anything is hard work! It's HARD to find the happy medium between playing "boss" and being the "good guy" and sometimes you don't have time to be both. You have to do what's right for your store first and foremost. I once had a DM tell me that it wasn't the assistant manager's job to be liked- it was their job to be RIGHT. I like to think a better balance can be found than that...but sometimes, you can only pick one.

In the best interest of EVERYONE on the forum, sometimes, the mods just have to be RIGHT- or try to be. And I HAVE seen mods apologize when they THOUGHT what they did was right, but it turned out to be a mistake...

I'm sorry that you don't agree with the way things are handled, Horror. I don't know what happened or what offended you, but I hope you can speak with the moderator and work out your differences. If you cannot, and you choose to leave, then farewell.

[horror]

I'm sorry that you don't agree with the way things are handled, Horror. I don't know what happened or what offended you, but I hope you can speak with the moderator and work out your differences. If you cannot, and you choose to leave, then farewell.
Who said I was leaving CS? I'm not just going to pick up my toys and go home because one of the kids on the playground doesn't know how to play nice.
I was offering my suggestions as to how things could potentially be done, and instead of offering counter arguments I was met with immature rebuttals like the one from Pedersen.
But hey, that's what I get for opening my yap.

[DesignFox]

Well, I'm glad you aren't going, then. :)

It's hard to tell someone's tone from their writing sometimes... I guess I was reading more upset into your thoughts than was really there.

Moving on... any other thoughts?

[horror]

Well, I'm glad you aren't going, then. :)

It's hard to tell someone's tone from their writing sometimes... I guess I was reading more upset into your thoughts than was really there.

Moving on... any other thoughts?
Well seeing as my first two ideas didn't fly I'm fresh out for now. Maybe when my fever subsides I'll come up with something more acceptable to everyone. I know most people like the "just don't read what they write" approach but I've always been of the opinion that it's best to solve an issue rather than ignore it. However I have considered adding this person to my ignore list, but since they're a moderator such a thing is an impossibility.
Meh.

[Ree]

The beauty of fratching is that people are much more free to offer their opinions about things that they wouldn't comment on over on the CS board.
I think it's great that someone has opened this discussion, as there is always room for new ideas and feedback.

Nobody likes criticism. I know I don't always handle it well.
The truth is, until I saw that compliment from horror, I honestly thought her complaint was about me. :D

There have been a few times when I know I have let emotions get in the way, or when I was going through some things in my personal life, or was just too stressed, when I haven't exactly acted as a good example of a moderator.
Those are times when I honestly knew better and should have stepped away from the keyboard, but I didn't.

We mods are human and we make mistakes, but that's why we have a team.
What a lot of people don't realize is that we are all in close communication with each other on each and every moderation done on these sites.

We post in our moderator forum and ask for advice or suggestions, or for critiques on how we handled something. We will email or PM each other if we aren't sure how to handle something.
We all support each other.
No mod works in an isolated environment.
We sometimes forward or even carbon copy our PM's to Raps for his input, or we post them in our mod forum so other mods can see what's going on.
Sometimes, we will do a rough draft and post if so others can tell us where to edit, if needed.

When members report a post, it goes to this moderator forum, and the mod who gets to the report first will post to let the others know how it was handled.
Sometimes, we see these messages, but other times, we don't check there first and jump on a report, so it can look like overkill if two mods show up and start acting, especially if both of them have very unique styles that are polar opposites.

On the old board, under the former owner, I believe I was the last mod appointed before the board was hacked for the last time, and then sold to Raps.
I can't speak as an expert as to how mods were appointed there, but I believe it was offered to some who had proven themselves on the board.
From time to time, Mr Slugger would find it necessary to appoint a new mod.
There was one time he he was looking for new mods and he did ask the board to nominate their choices.
He selected from those names put forward.

I think, in my case, the mod team nominated me.

On the new board, there were a lot of changes and Raps found himself in need of some new mods.
We mods talked among ourselves and put forward several candidates that we felt had carried themselves well on the board.
From all the names put forward, we discussed the pros and cons of each one and from there, it was put to a vote and the list was pared down to 4 excellent people.
They became part of the new mod team.

Not long ago, it was decided that we needed a few more mods.

We went through the same process again and came up with 3 very capable and competent moderators.

Our team is very diverse.
We have some who are very laid back and nothing fazes them.
We have some who lean more to the conservative side.
We have some who are more liberal.
Some are very active, and some visit or act in a mod capacity only occasionally.
Some have tact and a cool head, and some can be quite blunt and to the point.
Some have the patience of Job, and some do not suffer fools gladly and do not tolerate BS.

I think this diversity makes for a great team.

While it may seem to some that a certain mod is over the top and makes questionable decisions, please know that, even though other mods may have handled it differently, they fully support that mod.
If we feel very strongly that they didn't handle things very well, or have added fuel to the fire with their approach, we will be honest with them and offer support and constructive ways for the next time. (I have been on the receiving end of a few of those.)

Anyone who has an issue with the way any of the moderators handle themselves is free to simply PM Raps with those concerns.
That's the easiest most democratic and most effective way to handle it.
I can assure you that he will address the problem with the mod.

I do feel there is something to be said for horror's suggestions, to a point.
I am wondering, the next time we need a mod, what is the viability of opening it up to the membership for nominations via PM to Raps or a mod?

I certainly don't feel that opening up a private poll is an ideal way to handle your current problem, but I thank you for at least trying to offer a solution, rather than simply hitting and running by slamming a mod and offering no constructive idea for resolving the issue.

[Seshat]

not because some watery tart lobbed a sword at them.

It's a good thing I was obeying rule 1.

However I have considered adding this person to my ignore list, but since they're a moderator such a thing is an impossibility.

Horror,

I'm afraid that we simply can't help you unless you can be more specific. I know you believe the person who upsets you to be "rude, condescending and snide", and presumably this is also the person who is "responding to the posters like they're children".

To you, this probably clearly defines which mod it is, and which specific behaviours are offensive. However, I've discovered that once you cross cultural boundaries, definitions of 'rude' behaviours change.

I've had a person contact the head of my ISP and tell me I should be banned from the internet - because I called myself a bitch in a correspondence with her. Or then there's people from Georgia calling everyone 'honey' and 'dear' - and people from New York finding that behaviour incredibly patronising.

Given the wide variety of what constitutes 'rude, condescending and snide', and what constitutes 'treating people as children' - well, we honestly can't tell who you mean.

So. You have a problem with a moderator. Rapscallion suggested you speak to him about it. I suggested that if your problem was with Raps, you speak to any mod about it. Heck, if you have a problem with any moderator, you can speak to any moderator about it. We're mostly level-headed people, we understand that personality conflicts happen. Also that cultural conflicts happen, and also that humans - which we all are - make mistakes.

However, "[you] don't feel comfortable speaking to any of the mods". Well. That makes things tough.

Why don't you feel comfortable? Apparently at least some of us post like"they know they have more power than the rest of us". Well, I post in the awareness that I have more responsibility than I did pre-mod. Do I have more power? Nah. The single greatest power I have is the power to silence someone on one tiny forum in a vast internet - and even then, the other mods or Raps can override me with the press of a few buttons.
Are you sure you aren't mistaking awareness-of-responsibility for power?

So how can we solve the problem of the mod who makes you uncomfortable? You suggested we run a poll. To avoid the problems of a public poll, you suggested that comments be private. Good plan. But: that would require everyone who commented in the poll to trust the person who ran it. What if the person who ran the poll was the very same moderator you have so much of a problem with?

(Besides which, running a wide-reaching poll because one member is uncomfortable with one mod is a bit like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.)


Well seeing as my first two ideas didn't fly I'm fresh out for now.

I'm aware of the poll idea - what was the other?

As for my own ideas: all I can think of is an anonymous 'comment box' which the mods or Raps can read, but we can't tell who made the comment. I can see that being troll heaven, though. :(

Beyond that: be brave! All the mods now know you think one of us is condescending, rude and snide, and that none of us can be trusted to listen to your complaints in a polite, respectful, even-handed manner. Honestly, how much worse can it be? Do we have the fleas of a thousand camels infesting our underwear? Are we cursed to live in interesting times? Do you bite your thumb at us?





And to answer a couple of other comments I found while looking for your second idea:

"New" isn't necessarily in relation to the longevity of someone's time as mod. "New" also refers to "different".

Well, that's a new and different definition of the word new! Which culture uses that? Mine doesn't. (This is a genuine, not rhetorical, question.)

We mods are VASTLY different! We come from different cultural backgrounds, different religious backgrounds, and for all I know, different racial backgrounds. (I have no idea who's what race, except for me.)

The only thing we have in common is the ability to handle disagreement and criticism without going all capslock on each other.


so scolding a member in a thread is really a dick move on the mods part.

I attempt not to scold individual members in a thread, though I do sometimes highlight something an individual member said as an example of a behaviour to avoid. I realise I may not always make it clear that I'm not scolding that individual member, and will attempt to be clearer about it in the future.

For the most part, when I publically moderate in a thread, it's because the thread is getting off topic for either CS, or for that section of CS. Posting a private message isn't going to pull the thread back on topic: it has to be a threadwide change.

Pulling the thread back on topic only affects people who post to the thread after my public action, so posting in the thread is the most effective way to reach all those people.


Who said I was leaving CS?

You did. Well, okay. You said you might be leaving.

In your first post in this thread, you said:

Overall posting on CS and even reading CS has become far less enjoyable, mostly due to the people's attitude. I think people should either shape up or ship out (or be forced out).
Personally I seem to be leaning more towards the "ship out" option.
Though I'm sure many will view that
as an, "I'M NEVER SHOPPING HERE AGAIN!" remark. Oh well.

[Pedersen]

I was met with immature rebuttals like the one from Pedersen.

Wow. My reply was immature? No, not really. My reply was meant to make you think about something, and that thought completely avoided you, judging by your reply.

Simply having a poll of any sort could have a severely negative impact on the mods. These are people, just like you and me. They've been doing this for a while. And now, suddenly, what you are proposing is that each and every mod be voted on to determine if that person is kept a mod.

The number of issues with an online poll is just staggering. First, the issue of ballot stuffing. And yes, this is real. Anybody with a small clue about the internet plus a modicum of scripting ability can set up a script that will send in 3 votes/hour, at varying intervals, from various IP addresses, and with various new usernames from all the free email services out there. Don't like a mod? How about 72 "no" votes a day for a week? All done in such a way as to be extremely difficult to prove that any falsification was done?

Second, what about the issue of trust between Raps and the mods? Raps would, basically, tell all the mods "Hey, some of the users don't like some of you, so now all of you are on trial. Hope the vote goes well, or you're off the mod team." Do you think that any of the mods would trust him after that?

Third, we have the issue of moderators being able to do their job as moderators. With polls open, they can't really step in and stop a derailed thread, or delete a post recommending vandalism to others. After all, the person(s) who feel slighted by their action will just go and vote the mod down right away. The mods become afraid to do their jobs, and not just now, but later, too, since Raps could easily put in another poll 6 months down the road. The mods have to watch out for that, and campaign for that.

My point in my post earlier was to make you think about what would happen if you were one of the people who was suddenly being put on trial. It's a shame you missed that point. Surprising, too, since I'm about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the big toe. While wearing open toe sandals.

[AFPheonix]

Have you considered just corresponding with this particular person one on one through PMs?
Seriously, what's the worst that could happen? Don't be afraid of confrontation or the search for understanding and the truth, no matter where it is, even if it's something as insignificant as modding on a little message board.

[blas87]

Honestly horror, I don't know what to futher tell you.

Many people, even moderators, have offered you advice and their unbiased POVs to you, and you still aren't satisfied.

You don't want to leave, but you hate the "power trip". I don't know what to tell you anymore.

I feel you owe Pederson an apology, as no hatred or offense was meant towards you. Others are speaking out because they are hurt that you are sort of "bashing" the site and the valued moderators.

[horror]

Many people, even moderators, have offered you advice and their unbiased POVs to you, and you still aren't satisfied.

You don't want to leave, but you hate the "power trip". I don't know what to tell you anymore.

I feel you owe Pederson an apology, as no hatred or offense was meant towards you. Others are speaking out because they are hurt that you are sort of "bashing" the site and the valued moderators.

For the sake of ease I'll just make one response for both you and Pederson, since essentially the two would be mostly the same anyway.

I think my stance is being taken far too seriously. I mean, this much is obvious enough to me by the sheer fact that it was even suggested that I was bashing the board.
No.
I expressed my issues about the board in a thread devoted to issues on CS, and offered what I felt could be a possible solution. I never once said that is should be the only way to go about things. That's what a suggestion is. An idea that is tossed out that can be considered and/or worked with.
When the notion was expressed that this suggestion could cause worry within the mod team, the simple fact that I disagreed and felt otherwise, based on how I would personally react to such a thing were I in the position, seemed to express some sort of... I don't know... foolishness? Bitterness? Unwillingness to empathise with others? I don't know specifically, but clearly the fact that I don't see why a poll would create paranoia is a bad thing.
This is also why I will not apologise to Pederson.
Not because I'm stubborn, not because I'm an asshole, but because in spite of the fact that yes, I got his very obvious point, I feel that the way he worded it was, in fact, immature.
It read to me as, "nananana see how you like it!" Well... I wouldn't care.
If it's assumed that I owe someone an apology for something like that -being the way their comment read to me and the fact that I disagree with them- then we all owe everyone an apology for every debate we've ever had. In the same vain would Pederson not also owe me one?
Not in my opinion, and I would never expect one since I'm not personally perturbed when someone disagrees with me in a discussion.
The fact that I felt his method of delivery for expressing his opinion was of a certain tone does not mean that I take offence to it. However it does seem that the possible solutions I suggested offended others.
Ah but what can ya do, right?
Can't please everyone.

[Ree]

I really don't feel that horror owes Pedersen an apology.

He disagreed with the suggestions offered, and the way he did it came across as immature to horror.

horror expressed that fact to Pedersen.

This is fratching, after all, and not CS, and members are given a freer rein here.

If Pedersen isn't prepared to be called on comments, with dissenting opinions offered, then he shouldn't be making those comments.

[blas87]

I understand, Ree, I'm just getting a little shaken up over all the CS bashing and I think it'd just be best if after this I stay away from this particular thread.

The thought of making a poll to eliminate a moderator is just ridiculous.

[Ree]

I understand where you're coming from on this, blas.

It was just a suggestion from horror, though.
Personally, I didn't like the private poll idea, or the idea of removing a mod, but as I already said, at least it wasn't just a slam against a mod with no suggestion for improvement.

I don't think the idea was meant to completely bring down the site, nor was it an attempt to bash CS.

horror has a problem with a moderator. I think there are a lot of members who could say the same thing.

Removing a mod doesn't seem like a productive option at the moment, because our current team works well together, and a large majority of the team were only recently appointed. They would not be mods if it was felt they were not capable of doing the job.

Now, this thread is starting to look a little like a poor dead horse that's being beaten into the ground.

I'm pretty sure we started out talking about members being overly sensitive and there being too many threads shut down as a result...

[Seshat]

When the notion was expressed that this suggestion could cause worry within the mod team, the simple fact that I disagreed and felt otherwise, based on how I would personally react to such a thing were I in the position, seemed to express some sort of... I don't know... foolishness? Bitterness? Unwillingness to empathise with others? I don't know specifically, but clearly the fact that I don't see why a poll would create paranoia is a bad thing.

Eh, everyone has different reactions to things. There are all sorts of common human reactions that I don't understand either - all I can do is mentally shrug my shoulders and accept that some people react that way. Take their word for it.

Some of the mod team probably would feel bad if such a poll were made: simply because such a large percentage of the human population hates that type of criticism, and we have a large enough mod team that we can assume some of them are part of that percentage.

My main objection to the poll is the one I expressed earlier: that everyone who responded would have to trust the poll counter/comment compiler. Whichever person - mod or not - we pick to run the poll, there're going to be some people abstaining simply because they don't like/trust the person running the poll.