Cult Militia trying to start a war...

[BigGiant]

I think this is the correct spot for this.

Evidently this militia group was planning to kill a police officer, then attack other officers at his funeral to begin their war against the United States Government.

Nope, not a 'Jihad', but in the name of Christ.

Methinks the fundamentalists enjoy ruining things for everyone.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/hutaree.militia.plans/?hpt=Sbin

[Savannah]

You know, I could have sworn there was something in the Bible about not killing people, treating others as you would like to be treated, and loving your neighbor. Silly me.

On a more serious note, I want to know what the hell these people are reading! How do you get the idea that Jesus wants you to wage war from reading the Bible? (Unless you're reading the "Bible for Opposites Day", without realizing it.)

[gremcint]

You know, I could have sworn there was something in the Bible about not killing people, treating others as you would like to be treated, and loving your neighbor. Silly me.


I don't know about those but I'm sure there was something about not judging or not throwing stones.


Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment.

Can someone find me a passage that backs this up even remotely? And I mean in terms of Jesus not someone else advocating violence but Jesus himself.

[HYHYBT]

No, nobody can find that. There are passages that can very easily be used to support violence, but most of that is Old Testament and none of it is His.

[Nyoibo]

Wasn't there more in the bible about beating the swords into ploughs and turning the other cheeck?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Just goes to show that hopelessly insane people can be found everywhere you look.

Kudos to the feds for shutting them down before anyone got hurt. Neat little reminder that there is real police work getting done despite the goofs that get plastered all over the news.

Kinda makes me wonder what would happen if I founded a militia specifically to oppose the violent overthrow of the government by other militias... :D

[BigGiant]

Kudos to the feds for shutting them down before anyone got hurt. Neat little reminder that there is real police work getting done despite the goofs that get plastered all over the news.




Definitely the most important thing to take from the article. Believe it or not, we do have a pretty competent police force for the most part. Unfortunately, it is the 'horror' stories that get folks to buy the papers or tune in.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Definitely the most important thing to take from the article. Believe it or not, we do have a pretty competent police force for the most part. Unfortunately, it is the 'horror' stories that get folks to buy the papers or tune in.

I just KNOW that the statements about this are going to be "how on earth did they let these people do this!???!" despite the fact that, they didn't!

It was a textbook situation. Suspicious behavior warrents closer inspection, in turn reveals potential danger so evidence is gathered until you either

A) prove the threat and take them down
or
B) discover that there is little or no threat and either keep an eye on them or ignore them.

Class tommorow is going to be FUN :D

[Stormraven]

I've seen, quoted, a passage that claims to be a quote from Jesus 'If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one'. But I haven't had a bible in decades, so I have no way to check, and I don't recall on what site I've seen it.

However, the use I've seen that quote applied to was self-defense - being willing, able and ready to defend yourself if attacked. It was not being used to support attacking anyone.

[lordlundar]

Kinda makes me wonder what would happen if I founded a militia specifically to oppose the violent overthrow of the government by other militias... :D

You'd get busted for vigilante justice.

What? He asked.:D

[Ghel]

According to the author of Matthew, Jesus did say (and I paraphrase), "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." But that just goes to show that you can find a bible verse to support almost any agenda.

And this story just goes to show that extremists will latch on to any philosophy or religion that they think supports their cause. In this sense, Christianity is no better than Islam.

[HYHYBT]

Ghel: I'm tempted to say that that verse, combined with the Michigan militia people, is what happens when people who claim to take everything in the Bible literally actually try to do so... but that wouldn't be fair. Instead, a quote from a famous hymn:Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before.

[smileyeagle1021]

What is truly sad about this... I'm not surprised that this happened, I am however surprised at how long it took for this to happen. Far too many fundamentalists who are upset over blacks being given equality, gays moving (far too slowly for any decent person's taste) towards equality, and more and more people abandoning the Bible to believe that this wouldn't have happened or won't happen again.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

You'd get busted for vigilante justice.

What? He asked.:D

I would say it's actually preparation for future self defense, which is actually 100% legal :D

As a great man or woman has probably already said:

"In order to shoot the bad guy first, you have to already have a gun"

And if they didn't I just did!

On another note, I'm not in the slightest surprised that this happened because similar thing have and likely always will. Absolutely fucking insane nut cases are always going to exist and sooner or later some of 'em will band together and try and blow shit up. The trick is to lock them up or shoot 'em till they stop squirming before they get the chance :D

[insertNameHere]

As a great man or woman has probably already said:

"In order to shoot the bad guy first, you have to already have a gun"



I'm sorry your trying to bring logic into politics you really need to not do that. but of course I couldn't agree more. What sucks is many people who own guns are now seen as part of this group for no real reason. I am sick of people demonizing guns. Glad they were able to stop the militia before anything happened, guess they saw this article/forward Four down 20000 go (http://alaskareport.posterous.com/four-down-20000-responded). Guess they took 20000 to go as a challenge.

[lordlundar]

I would say it's actually preparation for future self defense, which is actually 100% legal :D

Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, it's a pre-emptive strike, which is only legal in a warzone. So unless you formally declare war on them and the declaration is recognized internationally, it's still considered vigilantism.:p

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, it's a pre-emptive strike, which is only legal in a warzone. So unless you formally declare war on them and the declaration is recognized internationally, it's still considered vigilantism.:p

It's only a pre-emptive strike if I were to go after them. I'm saying that we'd weapon up and wait for them to do something stupid, then go after them. Preferably by showing up to whatever shit they try to pull and catching them from behind :D

[Fryk]

Hell, Sir Integra, I'd sign up for it, but I can't shoot straight worth a damn. Does your hypothetical group need radio operators?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Hell, Sir Integra, I'd sign up for it, but I can't shoot straight worth a damn. Does your hypothetical group need radio operators?

We'll make you are information and logistics operative. It comes with dental and a neat hat :D.

Seriously though, yeah. Any group of people even attempting tactical organization would benefit from someone elsewhere giving them the larger picture/ helping to co-ordinate them with friendlies...

[Hobbs]

Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, it's a pre-emptive strike, which is only legal in a warzone. So unless you formally declare war on them and the declaration is recognized internationally, it's still considered vigilantism.:p
Pre-emptive strikes are legal regardless as to where it is. LOAC only says that the legality of an attack has to do with the elements of military necessity. Concerns such as distinction: Civilian population vs. combatants, Civilian objects vs. military objectives; and proportionality. Rules for an attack are that forces: 1. Must attack a specific military objective
a. Attacks must be limited strictly to military objectives
2. Prohibited to use methods or means which cannot be directed at a specific military objective
a. Presumption of civilian status for dual use objects

There's a lot more, but I'd suggest a separate thread to discuss LOAC

[lordlundar]

It's only a pre-emptive strike if I were to go after them. I'm saying that we'd weapon up and wait for them to do something stupid, then go after them. Preferably by showing up to whatever shit they try to pull and catching them from behind :D

Ah, well if you made yourself known, you'd get busted by the feds. Though I think the CIA might offer training. :p

It's a simple matter if the government thinks you're a threat, they'll shut you down. And because they don't know you're loyalty, they'll regard you as a threat. After all, they don't know you from a lunatic fundie who thinks Glenn Beck is telling him to assassinate the president.

Pre-emptive strikes are legal regardless as to where it is. LOAC only says that the legality of an attack has to do with the elements of military necessity. Concerns such as distinction: Civilian population vs. combatants, Civilian objects vs. military objectives; and proportionality. Rules for an attack are that forces: 1. Must attack a specific military objective
a. Attacks must be limited strictly to military objectives
2. Prohibited to use methods or means which cannot be directed at a specific military objective
a. Presumption of civilian status for dual use objects

There's a lot more, but I'd suggest a separate thread to discuss LOAC

I note a considerable point of "must be a military target" there. If I recall correctly, the US laws regard militias as civilians when not in a time and place of war. So it really does depend on what you regard a pre-emptive strike to be. Otherwise you could shoot someone for looking at you wrong because you thought they we're going to kill you first.

[Hobbs]

Actually, most of the "militias" bullshit are considered domestic terrorists. So Geneva doesn't even apply to them.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Believe it or not, the CIA and FBI do need something to bust you with, regardless of whether or not they regard you as a threat. Nothing I'm proposing is against the law. The reason why this militia was shut down is because they actively planned and prepared for illegal activities. The purpose of my 'militia' would be to prepare for and respond to if necessary the illegal activities of others, basically large-scale self-defense and all completely legal.

[Fryk]

I'd be happy to be your Logistics Officer! Can I design my own logo for my hat?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I'd be happy to be your Logistics Officer! Can I design my own logo for my hat?

As long as it in some way incorporates the militia logo (right now it's a dead heat between fuzzy dice and a cute puppy, both just for the sake of being contrary) all things related to the support division is up to you!

I'll make sure a selection of feathers are available for your hat as well :D

[wolfie]

As long as it in some way incorporates the militia logo (right now it's a dead heat between fuzzy dice and a cute puppy, both just for the sake of being contrary) all things related to the support division is up to you!

Cute puppy would probably be a better choice. Intelligence? Cute bloodhound puppy sniffing around. Logistics? Cute puppy dragging a bag of stuff. Engineering? Cute puppy digging a hole. Combat arms? Pit bull puppy with its teeth bared.

[Fryk]

Cute puppy with a pair of fuzzy dice dangling from its collar!

I'll be setting up some cardboard cutouts later this week, to pretend like I have a staff.

[IDrinkaRum]

Cute puppy with a pair of fuzzy dice dangling from its collar!

I'll be setting up some cardboard cutouts later this week, to pretend like I have a staff.

Yes, but what type of fuzzy dice?

Just the regular 6-sided fuzzy dice (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RdVZtvYqUrc/SEFcEPMn1YI/AAAAAAAAAFY/awNs7qKMxQ8/s320/dice.jpg) or the more awesome D-20 fuzzy gaming dice which you can roll for initiative if anyone threatens you (http://www.bytelove.com/images/uploads/Gadgets/lifestyle/d20-fuzzy-dice.jpg)? :D

[Fryk]

Even better: D-20 fuzzy dice stuffed with quarters. Perfect for swinging and bashing.

[Parrothead]

I've seen, quoted, a passage that claims to be a quote from Jesus 'If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one'. But I haven't had a bible in decades, so I have no way to check, and I don't recall on what site I've seen it.

It's Luke 22:36 (http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm), when Christ was trying to protect his followers after the Last Supper.

[infinitemonkies]

Maybe this deserves it's own thread:

How could one legally and non-violently secede from America?
Let's say, for the sake on convenience, that the area is already on the border, with ocean access. One of the Florida keys for instance. Me & everyone else on this bit of land want to form our own country, and write our own constitution. How could it be done without ending in a 4 day stand-off with the FBI & ATF and a whole lotta body bags? What would be different in the scenario if it were instead a chunk of land in the middle of Tennesee?

[Andrew B]

Surprisingly enough, there are micronations within the US Borders. Molassia for example.

[smileyeagle1021]

Surprisingly enough, there are micronations within the US Borders. Molassia for example.

theoretically all tribal reservations and colonies are micronations. When I lived in Reno I quite frequently left the United States... in fact every commuter on the 395 freeway going between Mill and 80 technically left the United States (the freeway crosses a colony).

[Hyena Dandy]

According to the author of Matthew, Jesus did say (and I paraphrase), "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." But that just goes to show that you can find a bible verse to support almost any agenda.

Especially if you want to take it out of context. It seems pretty clear from that passage that Jesus isn't saying "I'm all about war" but rather "Yeah, shit's gonna go down. I'm awesome, but I can't make peace happen."

And this story just goes to show that extremists will latch on to any philosophy or religion that they think supports their cause. In this sense, Christianity is no better than Islam.

What's so bad about Islam anyway?

[Nyoibo]

Islam is still going through growing pains that Christianity went through something like 1000 years ago.

[Hyena Dandy]

I hate the growing pains argument. It takes responsibility for people's actions away from them, and places it on the religion. And not even the teachings of the religion, rather, that there is a religion at all, essentially saying that all religions will inevitably turn violent after a certain amount of time. But religions do not exist seperate from their practitioners. Catholicism is not separate from Catholics. Presbyterianism would not exist, were it not for the Presbyterians. Even the most regimented religion, like Scientology, is only present because there are Scientologists. And any action taken by the followers of a religion is taken by its followers, not the religion itself. Christianity has had bad times. Times when people were persecuted, violently even, by the Catholic church, or another church. But the responsibility for that lies solely on the persecutors, not on the religion.

But I see the appeal of the growing pains theory. It takes that blame away from the people who commit the crimes in their religion's name, and places it on the religion. In fact, it basically says that, because there is a religion, it will experience 'growing pains'. The theory lends itself to the argument that the best way to reduce violence is to stop religion from existing altogether, and then we will all be peaceful, free from the spectre of religion, which compels otherwise peaceful people to commit violence. Religion is the villain here, not the people who do the crimes.

Besides. Islam is the second largest religion in the world. Where exactly is it supposed to grow TO?

[BigGiant]

Agree on the 'Growing Pains' argument.

It is a cop out, and reeks more of trying to express superiority than anything else.

Like:

"Ya know, that silly little toddler religion Islam and their terrorists! Ah well, kids will be kids! Remember when Christianity was that young, Martha? And we had those sillly crusades? They'll grow out of it eventually!"

[KabeRinnaul]

The problem with Islam seems to be that many of the regions it has a strong presence are also extremely unstable and undeveloped, allowing any political opportunist to use it as an ideological weapon.

As for those Bible quotes?

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Helpful reference is helpful. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)

[Hobbs]

The problem with Islam seems to be that many of the regions it has a strong presence are also extremely unstable and undeveloped, allowing any political opportunist to use it as an ideological weapon.

As for those Bible quotes?




Helpful reference is helpful. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)
Yeah, because the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" is going to be fair and balanced. Nice to see that it left out the passages about "Love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek."

Athiesm is just as bad as religion in that vein of thought.

[ExiledV20]

Maybe this deserves it's own thread:

How could one legally and non-violently secede from America?
Let's say, for the sake on convenience, that the area is already on the border, with ocean access. One of the Florida keys for instance. Me & everyone else on this bit of land want to form our own country, and write our own constitution. How could it be done without ending in a 4 day stand-off with the FBI & ATF and a whole lotta body bags? What would be different in the scenario if it were instead a chunk of land in the middle of Tennesee?

Short answer: You can't. Period.

Long answer: The question of secession was resolved in Texas vs. White, in which the Supreme Court stated that the only viable method of secession in the USA was to either a) leave with the consent of ALL states AND the federal government or b) have a successful revolution and overthrow the federal and state governments in their entirety. This decision was predicated on the clause in the U. S. Const. of "to form a MORE PERFECT union"; if you secede, it's not perfect, therefore it's not allowed.

[Ipecac Drano]

Yeah, because the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" is going to be fair and balanced. Nice to see that it left out the passages about "Love thy enemy"
Skip down to Matthew 5:44 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/5.html#44)
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k605/IpecacDrano/sa/10e07440.gif


and "turn the other cheek."
and Matthew 5:38 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/5.html#44)
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k605/IpecacDrano/sa/10e07440.gif

The whole Bible is on that website. There is even a link called "Good Stuff (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html)" which takes you to passages that tell people to do good things.

Athiesm is just as bad as religion in that vein of thought.
Too bad that vein of thought actually came from an anti-atheist.
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k605/IpecacDrano/sa/51b1c156.gif

[KabeRinnaul]

Yeah, because the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" is going to be fair and balanced. Nice to see that it left out the passages about "Love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek."

Athiesm is just as bad as religion in that vein of thought.

Ipecac Drano already said it, but to add to the point, you might notice how often I argue in defense of religion on here.

I use the SAB because it has the full text of the King James bible, Book of Mormon, and Koran. Furthermore, they're searchable, with highlights on oft-debated topics and passages. It also includes Christian responses to much of the atheist commentary in the KJV section.

Too bad that vein of thought actually came from an anti-atheist.
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k605/IpecacDrano/sa/51b1c156.gif

If you're referring to me, I've not settled on any particular religious standpoint. I'm somewhere between "agnostic" and "Catholic who thinks too much".

[Ipecac Drano]

If you're referring to me, I've not settled on any particular religious standpoint. I'm somewhere between "agnostic" and "Catholic who thinks too much".
No, that was for Hobbs.

[Mytical]

Hmm may need the anti-rotten fruit shield up for this..but religion ISN'T the problem. Most recognized religions have both good and bad in them..it's the people that decide to go the higher road or the lower road.

Religions (even organized which I am not a fan of) have done a lot more good then bad..but only the bad get attention. IE the vocal minority make it hard on the silent majority.

For instance. You go to a restaurant. Three children are screaming, yelling, carrying on. 99% of people would complain about the three ..not saying anything about the 20 that are quietly eating dinner (other children that is). Like anything else in this world..the bad gets more press then the good.

People use anything to excuse their own bad behavior. Religion, Politics, Society, etc. "It's not MY fault, it's <X's> fault!!!"

[Ipecac Drano]

So, Mytical, what is the root of religious zeal? If the Bible, Qu'ran, etc., orders its followers to kill others and they kill for their god (in earnest, not as an excuse), where would religion fit it to that?

[Mytical]

So, Mytical, what is the root of religious zeal? If the Bible, Qu'ran, etc., orders its followers to kill others and they kill for their god (in earnest, not as an excuse), where would religion fit it to that?

So you know these books inside and out? Every facet of them? Not just select quotes that are out of context, but have actually taken the time to study them?

Because, I don't know them inside and out, though I have studied them..and that is not what I get from them. ((Note : I do know a lot more about the bible then the Qu'Ran, but everything? No.)) There are just as many, if not more, verses that tell you to : Turn the Other cheek, Judge not least you be judged, Love your neighbor as you would yourself.

So let me explain. In the past, have people have taken the selected quotes, out of context, and used them to further their own agenda? Yes. They preyed on peoples fear, ignorance, and worry. Think people in religion are the only ones that do that? Heck governments do that today.

Blame the 'illegal aliens' of the day, the 'infidels' (in the case of the religious fanatics), the gays, the jimbobfurlybobs. Whatever is CONVENIENT. Charismatic people can get people to follow and believe what they say, especially those who were never taught better.

Lets take the 'Crusade' one of the biggest tragedies attributed to Christianity. At the time the average person could not read or write. So when their leaders said "This is what the bible says." they believed it. Using fear, charisma, and POLITICAL positions of power, these people furthered their own political agenda. Not only distracting the populace from whatever real problems their were, but filling their pockets with ill gotten loot to boot.

Currently Islam is going through the same thing. Charismatic people are furthering their own political agenda, at the expense of people raised to follow them without question.

[Ipecac Drano]

So you know these books inside and out? Every facet of them? Not just select quotes that are out of context, but have actually taken the time to study them?
I've read them in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.


Because, I don't know them inside and out, though I have studied them..and that is not what I get from them. ((Note : I do know a lot more about the bible then the Qu'Ran, but everything? No.)) There are just as many, if not more, verses that tell you to : Turn the Other cheek, Judge not least you be judged, Love your neighbor as you would yourself.
You can learn alot about the Bible just by reading Deuteronomy; that book that isn't read from in church and in the temple.


So let me explain. In the past, have people have taken the selected quotes, out of context, and used them to further their own agenda? Yes. They preyed on peoples fear, ignorance, and worry. Think people in religion are the only ones that do that? Heck governments do that today.
I'm aware of all that.


Blame the 'illegal aliens' of the day, the 'infidels' (in the case of the religious fanatics), the gays, the jimbobfurlybobs. Whatever is CONVENIENT. Charismatic people can get people to follow and believe what they say, especially those who were never taught better.
Even if the Bible tells them so?


Lets take the 'Crusade' one of the biggest tragedies attributed to Christianity. At the time the average person could not read or write. So when their leaders said "This is what the bible says." they believed it. Using fear, charisma, and POLITICAL positions of power, these people furthered their own political agenda. Not only distracting the populace from whatever real problems their were, but filling their pockets with ill gotten loot to boot.
Did the leaders get their fuel from God's Book? Making shit up is one thing; communicating something from the Bible is another.


Currently Islam is going through the same thing. Charismatic people are furthering their own political agenda, at the expense of people raised to follow them without question.
I take all that as, "Yes, Ipecac, they're batshit crazy because they want to please their god."

[Boozy]

I've read them in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.

But not in English?

Too plebian for your tastes? ;)

[Ipecac Drano]

But not in English?

Too plebian for your tastes? ;)
Oh, pish posh, my fair lady!
;)

[Andara Bledin]

Did the leaders get their fuel from God's Book? Making shit up is one thing; communicating something from the Bible is another.
As explained in the rest of the post you're responding to, they cherry-pick the bits they like, quote them out of context and use them to rouse the rabble. A lot like what you do, actually.

^-.-^

[Ipecac Drano]

As explained in the rest of the post you're responding to, they cherry-pick the bits they like, quote them out of context and use them to rouse the rabble. A lot like what you do, actually.
In answer to your charge against me, the so-called cherry-picking doesn't apply here for one major reason: when there is a passage that is in the Bible telling people to go out and kill for their god and the passage is not an indirect quote or there is nothing before or after it saying something to the effect of, "He was just kidding"; it wasn't taken out of context.

Ecce:

13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15 you must attack that town and completely destroy[a] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17 Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.

18 “The Lord your God will be merciful only if you listen to his voice and keep all his commands that I am giving you today, doing what pleases him.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:13-19&version=NLT
There is a handy footnote that gives some enhancement of "you must attack that town and completely destroy":
a.Deuteronomy 13:15 The Hebrew term used here refers to the complete consecration of things or people to the Lord, either by destroying them or by giving them as an offering; similarly in 13:17.
Say what you want, but it's a pretty clear cut way of saying "Believe in my god or I shall destroy you and sacrifice you to him." Yes, I found that little tidbit and yes, I singled it out. Spank me. But it's in the Bible. If wasn't meant to be there, then it should have been removed along with the other things that King James, et al., didn't like. I'm not saying that the whole Bible is like that or supposed to be about killing in the name of God; but it is part of the Bible nevertheless.

As been mentioned before, the Bible really isn't as warm and fuzzy as some would like to believe.

[Mytical]

Mathew 10 14-16...

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves

Yep says to hate and kill..oh wait..it doesn't. Odd.

I am not a Christian, at all. People will pick and chose to push their own agenda. Sure it says that the people who do not listen will reap what they sow, but it says in plain english "Be as harmless as doves"

[Ipecac Drano]

Mathew 10 14-16...



Yep says to hate and kill..oh wait..it doesn't. Odd.
No, but in the New Testament, God does most of the killing of non-believers.


I am not a Christian, at all. People will pick and chose to push their own agenda. Sure it says that the people who do not listen will reap what they sow, but it says in plain english "Be as harmless as doves"
Uh, I already said that to do all those bad things is NOT THE ONLY THING the Bible says: "I'm not saying that the whole Bible is like that or supposed to be about killing in the name of God".

But, you have backed my reason for disliking religion: people pick and choose what they read in God's Word. It's kinda sad when God tells you to kill non-believers in one passage and then says be nice in another in the same volume.

[Mytical]

So dislike everything, because people will pick and choose period. Politics, race, sex, sexual orientation. A million and one excuses.

[Ipecac Drano]

So dislike everything, because people will pick and choose period. Politics, race, sex, sexual orientation. A million and one excuses.
There's a big difference between several people coming from different politics, racial culture, gender and sexual orientations and people picking and choosing from one holy book that's given to them by their god and claiming to believe and obey that god.

[Mytical]

How? The results are the same. If you hurt somebody because they are black, or because they don't worship a certain deity, how is it any different? At all?

It is still YOUR choice. Are bad things explained or examples given in religion. Yes. I even have a reasonable reason why there is a difference, but can I prove my theory? No. Religion does a lot more good then people like to give it credit. Like all things however, the vocal minority (that does bad), get more press then the silent majority who do things like feed the hungry, tend the sick, etc.

I guess I should explain my theory as to why in one section there is "The wrath of the almighty", and in another section the "Be as gentle as doves."

God is LIKE an alien intelligence. He could understand us, and us him as well as we can understand ants. Having just (basically) gotten past a huge war with some of his most trusted allies..he was a bit .. miffed. Didn't want it to happen again. He was (somewhat understandably) a bit angry. Thus the "Wrath of god" bit.

Time passed, he sort of mellowed out..and then..had a SON (if anything can teach you patience..it is having a child). He learned a little more about humans (and could understand us better) through the son..so along came the "Be as gentle as doves." To protect the ones he cared for, he might still get down and dirty, but he mellowed a lot.

As to why they exist in the same sections. They are explaining the difference. How it was, and how it is.

Think of it like this. If somebody came to your house (it would be 'HIS' house..the whole universe) and started harming YOUR children, what would YOU do? So he wanted to teach his children a better way, to let him take care of things. Sounds like a great dad actually.

Keep in mind..again..I am not a Christians. I don't speak for Christians, but it makes a bit more sense in that context.

Not to mention at the time during the more harsher wording/etc the world they were in was a very harsh unforgiving place. It was needed to survive (the harshness). Once that was (for the most part) over, the big guy relaxed a bit.

[Ipecac Drano]

How? The results are the same. If you hurt somebody because they are black, or because they don't worship a certain deity, how is it any different? At all?
If you can't tell the difference, ask a priest.


It is still YOUR choice. Are bad things explained or examples given in religion. Yes. I even have a reasonable reason why there is a difference, but can I prove my theory? No. Religion does a lot more good then people like to give it credit. Like all things however, the vocal minority (that does bad), get more press then the silent majority who do things like feed the hungry, tend the sick, etc.

I guess I should explain my theory as to why in one section there is "The wrath of the almighty", and in another section the "Be as gentle as doves."

God is LIKE an alien intelligence. He could understand us, and us him as well as we can understand ants. Having just (basically) gotten past a huge war with some of his most trusted allies..he was a bit .. miffed. Didn't want it to happen again. He was (somewhat understandably) a bit angry. Thus the "Wrath of god" bit.
That has nothing to do with ignoring something that one's god tells them to do.


Time passed, he sort of mellowed out..and then..had a SON (if anything can teach you patience..it is having a child). He learned a little more about humans (and could understand us better) through the son..so along came the "Be as gentle as doves." To protect the ones he cared for, he might still get down and dirty, but he mellowed a lot.
Paraphrasing Lewis Black will get you nowhere.


As to why they exist in the same sections. They are explaining the difference. How it was, and how it is.
Too bad they left out the part that says, "Here's the difference."


Think of it like this. If somebody came to your house (it would be 'HIS' house..the whole universe) and started harming YOUR children, what would YOU do? So he wanted to teach his children a better way, to let him take care of things. Sounds like a great dad actually.
By telling me to stone the perps?


Keep in mind..again..I am not a Christians. I don't speak for Christians, but it makes a bit more sense in that context.
I used to be a Xtian and even entered a seminary. I'd suggest you do the same before preaching the Bible to me.


Not to mention at the time during the more harsher wording/etc the world they were in was a very harsh unforgiving place. It was needed to survive (the harshness). Once that was (for the most part) over, the big guy relaxed a bit.
Choice of words isn't the issue; it's what's behind them.

[Mytical]

God is not telling them to kill, etc. It is somebody picking and choosing. Humans, not God.

I was a Christian at one time, and even headed toward priesthood. So? Want to clarify here. I (Mytical) was also once a Christian, and once was going to become a priest. I fail to see how that affects anything whatsoever however.

You have every right to your interpretation of things. I am not here to change your mind. My side is told, make of it what you will. Peace.

[Ipecac Drano]

God is not telling them to kill, etc. It is somebody picking and choosing. Humans, not God.
That's right: the Bible was written by men, not a supreme being.


You have every right to your interpretation of things. I am not here to change your mind. My side is told, make of it what you will. Peace.
I'm sorry, but "Go out and kill!" can only mean one thing.

[Hyena Dandy]

That's right: the Bible was written by men, not a supreme being.

I don't believe that anyone has claimed otherwise.

[Ipecac Drano]

I don't believe that anyone has claimed otherwise.
Well, as hard as you might not believe they exist, there are people out there who believe that a giant voice in the sky told some shepherds to write down everything it said and, lo, it became the Bible.

[Hyena Dandy]

I apologize, my meaning was not clear. That's my fault.

I don't believe anyone on HERE has claimed otherwise. I know there are people who believe that a giant voice in the sky gave word-for-word instructions on writing a holy book. Those people are either foolish and haven't put any research into their faith, or they're Muslims, whose holy book is actually SUPPOSED to be dictation. That's why you're not supposed to translate the Qu'ran into English, and why Muslims seem to get more upset over disrespecting the Qu'ran.