View Full Version : Cult Militia trying to start a war...
BigGiant
03-29-2010, 10:13 PM
I think this is the correct spot for this.
Evidently this militia group was planning to kill a police officer, then attack other officers at his funeral to begin their war against the United States Government.
Nope, not a 'Jihad', but in the name of Christ.
Methinks the fundamentalists enjoy ruining things for everyone.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/hutaree.militia.plans/?hpt=Sbin
Savannah
03-29-2010, 11:06 PM
You know, I could have sworn there was something in the Bible about not killing people, treating others as you would like to be treated, and loving your neighbor. Silly me.
On a more serious note, I want to know what the hell these people are reading! How do you get the idea that Jesus wants you to wage war from reading the Bible? (Unless you're reading the "Bible for Opposites Day", without realizing it.)
gremcint
03-29-2010, 11:25 PM
You know, I could have sworn there was something in the Bible about not killing people, treating others as you would like to be treated, and loving your neighbor. Silly me.
I don't know about those but I'm sure there was something about not judging or not throwing stones.
Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment.
Can someone find me a passage that backs this up even remotely? And I mean in terms of Jesus not someone else advocating violence but Jesus himself.
HYHYBT
03-30-2010, 01:38 AM
No, nobody can find that. There are passages that can very easily be used to support violence, but most of that is Old Testament and none of it is His.
Nyoibo
03-30-2010, 02:12 AM
Wasn't there more in the bible about beating the swords into ploughs and turning the other cheeck?
Wingates_Hellsing
03-30-2010, 02:13 AM
Just goes to show that hopelessly insane people can be found everywhere you look.
Kudos to the feds for shutting them down before anyone got hurt. Neat little reminder that there is real police work getting done despite the goofs that get plastered all over the news.
Kinda makes me wonder what would happen if I founded a militia specifically to oppose the violent overthrow of the government by other militias... :D
BigGiant
03-30-2010, 02:21 AM
Kudos to the feds for shutting them down before anyone got hurt. Neat little reminder that there is real police work getting done despite the goofs that get plastered all over the news.
Definitely the most important thing to take from the article. Believe it or not, we do have a pretty competent police force for the most part. Unfortunately, it is the 'horror' stories that get folks to buy the papers or tune in.
Wingates_Hellsing
03-30-2010, 04:13 AM
Definitely the most important thing to take from the article. Believe it or not, we do have a pretty competent police force for the most part. Unfortunately, it is the 'horror' stories that get folks to buy the papers or tune in.
I just KNOW that the statements about this are going to be "how on earth did they let these people do this!???!" despite the fact that, they didn't!
It was a textbook situation. Suspicious behavior warrents closer inspection, in turn reveals potential danger so evidence is gathered until you either
A) prove the threat and take them down
or
B) discover that there is little or no threat and either keep an eye on them or ignore them.
Class tommorow is going to be FUN :D
Stormraven
03-30-2010, 05:26 AM
I've seen, quoted, a passage that claims to be a quote from Jesus 'If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one'. But I haven't had a bible in decades, so I have no way to check, and I don't recall on what site I've seen it.
However, the use I've seen that quote applied to was self-defense - being willing, able and ready to defend yourself if attacked. It was not being used to support attacking anyone.
lordlundar
03-30-2010, 05:38 AM
Kinda makes me wonder what would happen if I founded a militia specifically to oppose the violent overthrow of the government by other militias... :D
You'd get busted for vigilante justice.
What? He asked.:D
According to the author of Matthew, Jesus did say (and I paraphrase), "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." But that just goes to show that you can find a bible verse to support almost any agenda.
And this story just goes to show that extremists will latch on to any philosophy or religion that they think supports their cause. In this sense, Christianity is no better than Islam.
HYHYBT
03-31-2010, 02:43 AM
Ghel: I'm tempted to say that that verse, combined with the Michigan militia people, is what happens when people who claim to take everything in the Bible literally actually try to do so... but that wouldn't be fair. Instead, a quote from a famous hymn:Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before.
smileyeagle1021
03-31-2010, 03:52 AM
What is truly sad about this... I'm not surprised that this happened, I am however surprised at how long it took for this to happen. Far too many fundamentalists who are upset over blacks being given equality, gays moving (far too slowly for any decent person's taste) towards equality, and more and more people abandoning the Bible to believe that this wouldn't have happened or won't happen again.
Wingates_Hellsing
03-31-2010, 07:10 AM
You'd get busted for vigilante justice.
What? He asked.:D
I would say it's actually preparation for future self defense, which is actually 100% legal :D
As a great man or woman has probably already said:
"In order to shoot the bad guy first, you have to already have a gun"
And if they didn't I just did!
On another note, I'm not in the slightest surprised that this happened because similar thing have and likely always will. Absolutely fucking insane nut cases are always going to exist and sooner or later some of 'em will band together and try and blow shit up. The trick is to lock them up or shoot 'em till they stop squirming before they get the chance :D
insertNameHere
04-01-2010, 09:54 PM
As a great man or woman has probably already said:
"In order to shoot the bad guy first, you have to already have a gun"
I'm sorry your trying to bring logic into politics you really need to not do that. but of course I couldn't agree more. What sucks is many people who own guns are now seen as part of this group for no real reason. I am sick of people demonizing guns. Glad they were able to stop the militia before anything happened, guess they saw this article/forward Four down 20000 go (http://alaskareport.posterous.com/four-down-20000-responded). Guess they took 20000 to go as a challenge.
lordlundar
04-02-2010, 07:16 PM
I would say it's actually preparation for future self defense, which is actually 100% legal :D
Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, it's a pre-emptive strike, which is only legal in a warzone. So unless you formally declare war on them and the declaration is recognized internationally, it's still considered vigilantism.:p
Wingates_Hellsing
04-03-2010, 03:31 AM
Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, it's a pre-emptive strike, which is only legal in a warzone. So unless you formally declare war on them and the declaration is recognized internationally, it's still considered vigilantism.:p
It's only a pre-emptive strike if I were to go after them. I'm saying that we'd weapon up and wait for them to do something stupid, then go after them. Preferably by showing up to whatever shit they try to pull and catching them from behind :D
Hell, Sir Integra, I'd sign up for it, but I can't shoot straight worth a damn. Does your hypothetical group need radio operators?
Wingates_Hellsing
04-03-2010, 05:13 PM
Hell, Sir Integra, I'd sign up for it, but I can't shoot straight worth a damn. Does your hypothetical group need radio operators?
We'll make you are information and logistics operative. It comes with dental and a neat hat :D.
Seriously though, yeah. Any group of people even attempting tactical organization would benefit from someone elsewhere giving them the larger picture/ helping to co-ordinate them with friendlies...
Hobbs
04-03-2010, 10:59 PM
Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, it's a pre-emptive strike, which is only legal in a warzone. So unless you formally declare war on them and the declaration is recognized internationally, it's still considered vigilantism.:p
Pre-emptive strikes are legal regardless as to where it is. LOAC only says that the legality of an attack has to do with the elements of military necessity. Concerns such as distinction: Civilian population vs. combatants, Civilian objects vs. military objectives; and proportionality. Rules for an attack are that forces: 1. Must attack a specific military objective
a. Attacks must be limited strictly to military objectives
2. Prohibited to use methods or means which cannot be directed at a specific military objective
a. Presumption of civilian status for dual use objects
There's a lot more, but I'd suggest a separate thread to discuss LOAC
lordlundar
04-04-2010, 08:49 PM
It's only a pre-emptive strike if I were to go after them. I'm saying that we'd weapon up and wait for them to do something stupid, then go after them. Preferably by showing up to whatever shit they try to pull and catching them from behind :D
Ah, well if you made yourself known, you'd get busted by the feds. Though I think the CIA might offer training. :p
It's a simple matter if the government thinks you're a threat, they'll shut you down. And because they don't know you're loyalty, they'll regard you as a threat. After all, they don't know you from a lunatic fundie who thinks Glenn Beck is telling him to assassinate the president.
Pre-emptive strikes are legal regardless as to where it is. LOAC only says that the legality of an attack has to do with the elements of military necessity. Concerns such as distinction: Civilian population vs. combatants, Civilian objects vs. military objectives; and proportionality. Rules for an attack are that forces: 1. Must attack a specific military objective
a. Attacks must be limited strictly to military objectives
2. Prohibited to use methods or means which cannot be directed at a specific military objective
a. Presumption of civilian status for dual use objects
There's a lot more, but I'd suggest a separate thread to discuss LOAC
I note a considerable point of "must be a military target" there. If I recall correctly, the US laws regard militias as civilians when not in a time and place of war. So it really does depend on what you regard a pre-emptive strike to be. Otherwise you could shoot someone for looking at you wrong because you thought they we're going to kill you first.
Hobbs
04-04-2010, 10:35 PM
Actually, most of the "militias" bullshit are considered domestic terrorists. So Geneva doesn't even apply to them.
Wingates_Hellsing
04-05-2010, 01:14 AM
Believe it or not, the CIA and FBI do need something to bust you with, regardless of whether or not they regard you as a threat. Nothing I'm proposing is against the law. The reason why this militia was shut down is because they actively planned and prepared for illegal activities. The purpose of my 'militia' would be to prepare for and respond to if necessary the illegal activities of others, basically large-scale self-defense and all completely legal.
I'd be happy to be your Logistics Officer! Can I design my own logo for my hat?
Wingates_Hellsing
04-05-2010, 02:39 AM
I'd be happy to be your Logistics Officer! Can I design my own logo for my hat?
As long as it in some way incorporates the militia logo (right now it's a dead heat between fuzzy dice and a cute puppy, both just for the sake of being contrary) all things related to the support division is up to you!
I'll make sure a selection of feathers are available for your hat as well :D
wolfie
04-05-2010, 03:21 AM
As long as it in some way incorporates the militia logo (right now it's a dead heat between fuzzy dice and a cute puppy, both just for the sake of being contrary) all things related to the support division is up to you!
Cute puppy would probably be a better choice. Intelligence? Cute bloodhound puppy sniffing around. Logistics? Cute puppy dragging a bag of stuff. Engineering? Cute puppy digging a hole. Combat arms? Pit bull puppy with its teeth bared.
Cute puppy with a pair of fuzzy dice dangling from its collar!
I'll be setting up some cardboard cutouts later this week, to pretend like I have a staff.
IDrinkaRum
04-06-2010, 12:07 PM
Cute puppy with a pair of fuzzy dice dangling from its collar!
I'll be setting up some cardboard cutouts later this week, to pretend like I have a staff.
Yes, but what type of fuzzy dice?
Just the regular 6-sided fuzzy dice (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RdVZtvYqUrc/SEFcEPMn1YI/AAAAAAAAAFY/awNs7qKMxQ8/s320/dice.jpg) or the more awesome D-20 fuzzy gaming dice which you can roll for initiative if anyone threatens you (http://www.bytelove.com/images/uploads/Gadgets/lifestyle/d20-fuzzy-dice.jpg)? :D
Even better: D-20 fuzzy dice stuffed with quarters. Perfect for swinging and bashing.
Parrothead
04-07-2010, 06:16 PM
I've seen, quoted, a passage that claims to be a quote from Jesus 'If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one'. But I haven't had a bible in decades, so I have no way to check, and I don't recall on what site I've seen it.
It's Luke 22:36 (http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm), when Christ was trying to protect his followers after the Last Supper.
infinitemonkies
06-19-2010, 01:42 PM
Maybe this deserves it's own thread:
How could one legally and non-violently secede from America?
Let's say, for the sake on convenience, that the area is already on the border, with ocean access. One of the Florida keys for instance. Me & everyone else on this bit of land want to form our own country, and write our own constitution. How could it be done without ending in a 4 day stand-off with the FBI & ATF and a whole lotta body bags? What would be different in the scenario if it were instead a chunk of land in the middle of Tennesee?
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