Who says we can and cannot say what

[Rapscallion]

I had a conversation with a chum at work - he was my minder when I was on trial.

He came in to an office where I was checking my emails, and he began to tell me about how another colleague had told a joke that was sizeist (he said that it was odd since the other person is overweight) and mysogynist. Chum is gay - married his long-term boyfriend a couple of years ago.

The conversation followed wherein I pointed out that someone overweight is apparently not allowed to tell a joke about someone else being fat? Isn't that against the current trend where black people can use the word 'nigger', though any right-thinking person of any skin (in my view) wishes they wouldn't? A heterosexual person is not allowed to use the word 'fag' or 'queer' to denote someone of homosexual persuasion, though there are groups such as 'Fags against fur' and 'Dykes on bykes' etc

As a non-minority, white, European male, I have to say that it's very confusing. Reclaiming a word isn't a noble effort when it's regarded as an insult. I find myself in a position where I don't know what I can and cannot say to pretty much everyone.

Rapscallion

[DexX]

I think part of it is that proudly reclaiming a word takes time, and there can be a confusing period in the interim. Take "queer" for example. I've never had a problem applying it to myself, and all of my queer friends consider it to be a thoroughly reclaimed word to be used with pride. Then one day I used it in front of my boss at the time, a gay guy, and he told me to be very careful because some people find it very offensive. I was totally baffled, as I thought it had lost its negative power a long time ago. I ended up coming out to him as bi and assuring him i didn't mean it in an offensive sense.

The simple fact is that the English language is always changing, evolving, ebbing, and flowing. "Negro" was a perfectly acceptable word when I was a kid, and "black" was considered offensive. Now "black" is just fine and dandy, but "negro" is considered outdated and kind of pretentious, as well as offensive by some.

The English lanuguage provides a very slippery and unstable footing. :)

[Seshat]

Humour is a funny thing. So are words.

Jokes - especially 'ist' jokes - are used in several different ways. A group tends to use jokes to establish and reinforce its group identity, and also to exclude others from the group.

Let's explain the group identity and exclusion with an example.

Feel free to replace sexism with any other -ism, the situation doesn't change much, only the details do. Also, feel free to reverse male and female roles - the same sort of thing happens in both directions.

A classically male-dominated, sexist workplace. Jokes about women happen, attitudes about women are reinforced among the group. Women are given words and nicknames based on stereotypes about them (slut, bitch, whore, dragon, dog). Usually these attitudes as sexist, and include the assumption that women can't do their job and don't belong in the industry. But because the group is comfortable in their identity and attitudes about women, the sexist jokes don't actually happen much. I call humour and terminology used this way 'inclusive' - it supports the group identity and encourages the members to stay in the group.

A woman is hired, and enters the group. This challenges the group's identity. Jokes about women happen more often, as the group tries to stay as it was. The woman is specifically targetted for some of these jokes, and to the stereotypical words, and her reaction to them is (usually subconsciously) analysed. If she seems sufficiently willing to maintain the old identity, she becomes 'one of the boys' and becomes accepted. Otherwise, the humour and words are used to exclude her, or to drive her into an 'acceptable' role in the periphery of the group. It becomes quite vicious and pointed, usually sublimated under things which she can't exactly point to and complain about, and she gets 'but it's just a joke' said to her any time she gets upset about it. Used this way, humour and terminology are 'exclusive' - it is an attempt to drive out of the group people who aren't seen as valid members of the group.


When enough people have had the same exclusionary experience, they often form a group of their own and attempt to adapt the jokes and the words to their own purposes. They make them into inclusive terms for their own group - themselves and the people who support them. Examples for women are 'bitch' and in some places 'slut'. For American Blacks, I hear that 'nigger' is being modified that way. Gays use 'queer' and 'dyke' and 'gay'. At this point, the word is inclusive within that group.

During this stage, the same word (or joke) is used in both inclusive and exclusive ways. From a member of the affected group, the word is inclusive. From an outsider, the instinctive and default reaction is to expect that the word is being intended in the exclusive way. Therefore, the instinctive and default reaction is to be hurt by them.

It's wrong to make that assumption. However, it's also very human to make the assumption. For an outsider to use these double-meaning words and have them assumed to be intended inclusively, the outsider usually has to indicate their sympathy in a way other than using the jokes or terms.

It sucks. But it's very human.

I hope this helps.

[Sylvia727]

I was 16 years old enough before I learned that faggot wasn't an acceptable word. Once I got over my embarassment, I started thinking back to how many people I had used it in front of, including teachers, who had never corrected me. How many people had assumed I was homophobic and either agreed or were too timid to confront me about it. The person who finally did confront me was my lesbian best friend, who of all people ought to have known I wasn't bigoted.

I think what boils down to is who gets hurt when you say it. My ADHD sister laughs at the ADHD jokes I make, but flips out when I refer to her marijuana-addict friend as a pothead. From my point of view, this makes no sense. ADHD isn't something she can control, and authority figures have used her label to discriminate against her. The decision to smoke pot, and break the law, was made freely and clearly by her friend, and he should accept the consequences. But from her point of view, my joke is just friendly ribbing, and the pothead term is used to dismiss him as a valid member of society.

None of it makes any sense. I just say what I think is friendly, avoid what I think is offensive, and whip out the "I'm sorry I inadvertantly offended you," when I guess wrong.

[Norton]

I find people get very uncomfortable if I use the F-word to describe myself. Of course, I'm referring to the word "fat". If I dare mention that I'm fat to someone who is not, they get a worried expression and say "Oh you're not fat. You're big/voluptuous/curvy/stocky/buxom" etc. However, if I say that I'm fat to another fat person, they show signs of agreement and commiserate about their own weight.

I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable. Afterall, "fat" is an insult. I don't call myself fat because I'm fishing for compliments - I do it because it's true. I also don't see it as an insult. It's just part of who I am, and I'm perfectly fine with it.

I suppose it may also be a preventative measure. If I call myself fat, it shows people that they can't hurt my feelings by pointing out the same fact. I used to find it funny in highschool when someone would call me fat. I'd look down at myself and say "Yup. You're pretty observant." Their mirth would deflate rather quickly. It does take the power away from someone who tries to hurt others with words.

[Boozy]

That's interesting, Norton! I've heard lots of big guys describe themselves as "fat", but never women. Women, in my experience, usually describe themselves as voluptuous or curvy.

As far as I'm concerned, people can describe their bodies any way they'd like. Its not my body, hence none of my damn business.

[AFPheonix]

Usually the women who describe themselves as fat have a BMI of around 10 ;)

[Sylvia727]

I call myself fat when I'm with other big women, but not when I'm around skinnier girls. The reason being that big women will not argue with my assessment, but petite women will hasten to soften the word, or compliment my curves. Big women are as comfortable with my body as I am, but small women rush to defend me so quickly I can't help but wonder what they're really thinking.

Of course, as Idrinkarum's icon says, skinny girls are for wimps ;)

[Seshat]

My ADHD sister laughs at the ADHD jokes I make, but flips out when I refer to her marijuana-addict friend as a pothead. From my point of view, this makes no sense.

In the model I use (explained above), you're an 'insider' in the ADHD group by virtue of being your sister's sister. Presumably, you love your sister and accept her for who she is, ADHD and all. ;) Therefore you're assumed to be using the inclusive/accepting versions and definitions of jokes and ADHD terms.

You're an outsider in the marijuana-addiction group, therefore you're assumed to be using the exclusive/insulting definition of 'pothead'.

None of it makes any sense. I just say what I think is friendly, avoid what I think is offensive, and whip out the "I'm sorry I inadvertantly offended you," when I guess wrong.

That's pretty much it. Based on my experiences, my model seems to be essentially correct - hopefully it can help explain things.

If other people's experiences show my model to be wrong, I'd appreciate hearing so, and hearing why. I'd like to refine it!

[Hellbound Alleee]

I wish that more fat people like myself would call themselves fat and get it over with. I'm fat because that's what I am.

Of course, I, having unpopular political opinions, don't believe in "bad words," and don't consider anything sacred. I can't imagine spelling out a word making any damn sense.

But what Rapscallion said--it's not the same with fat people, because fat people aren't a "community" or "culture." (Not that I'm up with tribalism in any case). It's up to the individual fatty to say if being blunt about it is okay or not. It takes people a long time to get over the hurt and abuse they might have suffered in childhood, from being the "fat kid." Nowadays, I don't know what it's like, because most kids are fat anyway (making it all the more absurd not to accept it).

I think it's really about personal space, though. Talking about someone else's body can be kind of a violation of that space. That's really, really personal. It's like pulling someone's pants down in front of other people--you just have to know the person well enough to tell if he or she has a sense of humour like that.

And whether the person making the joke is fat or thin--I don't think it really matters.