Unions!

[Spiffy McMoron]

Pretty simple thread here:

Are unions good? Are they bad? Are they becoming a relic from a time past, like guilds are now? What are your experiences regarding a union?

[DarthRetard]

I've established a tasteful disdain for teachers unions, especially down here, and some instances all over the country. Teachers unions destroy the need for competition, and allow lesser quality teachers to be paid the same amount as teachers who are effective and productive.

[Greenday]

Well, my union that I was in at my old summer job did nothing but just take some money out of my paychecks. Didn't do crap for me on any ocassion.

[Spiffy McMoron]

Hmmm...interesting responses, guys. Thanks.

I'll state right off the bat that I've never worked at a job that had a union. However, I'm going to become a teacher, which means that I'll become a part of the teachers union.

I'll just state what I think, and let you guys mull over it:

-I'm pro-union, as long as they work. If I were in a situation like DR described, I might be pissed at the union. However, I'd probably be more pissed at that particular teacher, and I'd definately be pissed at the school principle for not doing anything about that teacher. Incidentally, the union I would be joining has pretty specific rules regarding complaints toward a colleague.
-Unions can help to protect you from a bad boss or a vindicitive co-worker.
-Unions can do more than help you out on the job. I know of some unions that will help you upgrade your skills, or help you out legally if you get in a bind (even if it's not work related.). For a prime example, check out how the union helped out Aaron in the Vinegar Boy situation. (An extreme example, but one that he all know and love.)
-Historically, unions have generally down more good than harm, I think. Minimum wage, health care, pension, regular working hours, and occupational health and safety codes were all implimented with the influence of unions.


I'll be the firt to admit that unions aren't all sunshine and roses. Lazy co-workers, as Darth mentioned, can often be saved by the system. High overhead costs associated with unionized labour have forced some manufacturers to look elsewere for labour, and "alleged" associations with mobsters have all tarnished the reputation of unions.

[Melxb]

I'm pro-union. I come from a union family. Both of my parents have worked in positions for years as part of different unions. When I graduated from college, my first job was a union job. Subsequently, every job I've had since then has been a union job.

My first job out of college was teaching, and I was represented by a very large and locally powerful teacher's union. In my opinion, working there for the two years I did, my union totally worked for me. I was a teacher in a dangerous, inner-city school (nothing like assigning a new teacher to a potential lethal school). My administration, from the principal to the counselors, were awful. If it wasn't for my union representative (hey Bill!) and my union in general I would've had had a nervous breakdown. My teacher's union was/is awesome.

All unions aren't the greatest though. There is a lot of corruption in union ranks, and the potential for kickbacks in historic and legendary. However, my personal experience with unions has always been positive in that both the workers and the company at large have benfitted.

[Seshat]

Many people are lazy and greedy. This combination is the cause of a lot of misery in the world.

Lazy and greedy bosses contributed greatly to most of the horrors of the Victorian age: phossy jaw, coal mining deaths, the company store abuse, the plight of children working in places like textile mills. (They had to clean the looms - while the looms were running.)

Lazy and greedy bosses are still with us. High profile cases include Bhopal and Exxon Valdez. Low profile cases are visible throughout the Morons in Management forum.

Management has a relatively easy way of protecting themselves from lazy or greedy staff: fire them. It's harder now than it used to be, because of regulations intended to protect good staff from bad management.

Humanity has only found three ways (that I can think of right now) to protect people from lazy or greedy management:
* boycott the company (but a truly effective boycott bankrupts the company, causing the staff to be fired);
* regulate the industry (but a whistleblower who brings a violation to the attention of the regulating body is almost always fired and usually can't work in the industry again);
* unionise, making an initial complainer relatively anonymous, and preventing the lazy/greedy manager from getting any work done until the problem is redressed (but a union can be corrupted by laziness and greed too).

I think it's wrong to say that we can discard one of those methods - not until we figure out a way to keep lazy and greedy people out of management. But we do need to figure out a way to keep those methods from being abused.

As a side note: AFAIK, union pay scale equality is an attempt to keep good staff with poor bargaining skills from being paid less than bad staff with excellent bargaining skills. It sucks because good staff get the same pay as bad staff, but at least it prevents good staff from getting worse pay than bad staff who meet the same pay level requirements.

[Boozy]

As a side note: AFAIK, union pay scale equality is an attempt to keep good staff with poor bargaining skills from being paid less than bad staff with excellent bargaining skills. It sucks because good staff get the same pay as bad staff, but at least it prevents good staff from getting worse pay than bad staff who meet the same pay level requirements.

It also prevents sexism. Women in unions are more likely to have "equal work/equal pay" than their non-unionized counterparts.

[Seshat]

Good point, Boozy. It also prevents other -ism created pay disparity.

As for sexist pay, check out Women Don't Ask (http://www.womendontask.com/). It's a popular-sociology book about the results of some study the authors did, triggered by a professor giving the title as the reason why male students got a particular advantage and female students didn't. The women just didn't ask.

Discussion of it would be a thread derail, so if anyone wants to discuss it, open a new thread please.

[AFPheonix]

The author was on Fresh Air or some other program on NPR quite awhile back. It was pretty interesting.

As for unions, overall they do some good work, but there are definitely bad apples out there. The union for Kroger workers is a perfect example. They're pretty much in bed with the company to the detriment of the very workers they're supposed to help.

[CancelMyService]

On the flip side, there are no more Kroger's stores in Western PA anymore because there was a strike back in 1983-84. Instead of trying to deal with the unions, they simply closed the stores. That's probably why the union's in bed with the company now, they know if they get out of line the company will just close the store down.

While there are certainly bad apples, unions in general are an essential thing in the US. Without them, there wouldn't be such things as 40 hour work weeks, paid vacations, labor laws, etc. It's really sad to see so many people with a negative opinion of them that is largely based on the FUD spread by big chain stores (hello Wal-Mart) that beat it into the heads of their largely young impressionable staff that unions are only out to steal your money.

Hell, unions are like car insurance. You should hope you never need them but if shit happens you'll usually end up glad you have one.

[DexX]

If you think unions are bad, then feel free to work sixty hour weeks on third-world level pay, with no paid holidays and no employee benefits, and no protection from unscrupulous employers.

Unions got us fairer wages, forty hour weeks, equal rights for female workers, paid holidays, unfair dismissal laws, anti-discrimination laws, etc etc etc.

Are unions populated 100% by angelic altruists? Of course not - there are scumbags in every group of people you might care to sample. That said, the unions do far more good than harm, and bagging them out while enjoying the benefits they fought hard to get for us is hypocrisy of the highest order.

[Greenday]

I think the main issue these days isn't whether unions are good or bad, but whether they are really needed as much these days as in the past.

[CancelMyService]

The question I always ask the anti-union people is if unions were to go away tomorrow, do you really think most corporations would do right by their employees when it goes against their basic economic interests to do so? The bottom line is that employee costs (pay, benefits, training) is usually the largest chunk of a company's budget. For all that fuzzy talk of how We're All A Happy Family At *Companyname*, the truth is they would fire you in a second to save money if push came to shove.

[AFPheonix]

Ditching unions wouldn't be a smart idea, we'd probably go back to where we started in the first place.

We as workers do have to try and keep our unions honest if we want them to work in our best interests.

[claidhmore]

All I know about unions I learned about from either textbooks (about how they helped set standards for labor and such) and from people in Flint, Michigan. The latter is important because I got to hear about how the guys at the auto plants would take their sweet time during 'calibration' where they'd find out how much work you could do in a day, then when the management left they'd plow through the work assigned and hit the bar. They'd leave a person at the plant to watch for the boss, and should management show up unannounced it was their job to call all the local bars to get people rushing back in to work.

I don't know if that's a true story, but my friend wouldn't lie about that I don't think and it would explain why Flint's a near ghost town today.

[CancelMyService]

All I know about unions I learned about from either textbooks (about how they helped set standards for labor and such) and from people in Flint, Michigan. The latter is important because I got to hear about how the guys at the auto plants would take their sweet time during 'calibration' where they'd find out how much work you could do in a day, then when the management left they'd plow through the work assigned and hit the bar. They'd leave a person at the plant to watch for the boss, and should management show up unannounced it was their job to call all the local bars to get people rushing back in to work.

I don't know if that's a true story, but my friend wouldn't lie about that I don't think and it would explain why Flint's a near ghost town today.

Not to doubt your friend but that story sounds highly suspect to say the least. I don't see how such a plan could possibly work, unless the lookout guy had a 15 minute floorshow designed to distract the bosses. Flint's a near ghost town due to GM sending jobs overseas to save costs rather than paying solid wages, but I guess it's easier to blame the union since a whole generation is being taught to hate the very groups that brought them the way of life they and their parents enjoy.

[Boozy]

I don't know if that's a true story, but my friend wouldn't lie about that I don't think and it would explain why Flint's a near ghost town today.

The reason Flint is a ghost town today involves international free trade agreements, multi-national corporations, inflation and the national debt, and 8 years of Reaganomics. Its more complicated than a few guys drinking at a bar instead of working.

[blas87]

Many veteran employees where I work are the first ones to tell us young pups that Unions are not as great as everyone says they are.

One lady said to me, "Blas, if we had a Union, even more worthless employees would be protected from termination than already are."

(meaning employees who really need to be fired but aren't because of plush toy supervisors)

[Ree]

I have never worked a union job.

I think unions served a purpose at one time, but I honestly think that they have caused workers to price themselves out of a market. They have forced companies to take their production to countries where the minimum wage is much lower.

There was a time when there were major safety concerns and discrimination, and the unions helped to change all of that.

They got greedy, though.

Locally, we just had the Hershey plant close.
They are taking production to Mexico.

Only about 4 years ago, their union went on strike demanding more money and other concessions.

Now, those same people have no jobs.

Locally, we also had the shoe factory close. Production has been taken to Mexico. It's cheaper to import the shoes.
Again, only a couple of years before they closed, their union was on strike.

Those people are all out of jobs.

Consumers simply can't afford to keep paying those inflated prices to compensate for the wages and concessions that unions have forced onto the manufacturers.

I admit, I don't know a lot about the workings of the unions, and maybe I'm oversimplifying and generalizing, but seriously, what else am I supposed to conclude? Go ahead and say it's the companies who are greedy for taking their business to those places to save a buck, but to be honest, if it comes down to paying $60 for a pair of shoes produced in a union factory, and $20 for the same pair imported by that company, $40 looks pretty darn good in my pocket.

[Seshat]

I admit, I don't know a lot about the workings of the unions, and maybe I'm oversimplifying and generalizing, but seriously, what else am I supposed to conclude? Go ahead and say it's the companies who are greedy for taking their business to those places to save a buck, but to be honest, if it comes down to paying $60 for a pair of shoes produced in a union factory, and $20 for the same pair imported by that company, $40 looks pretty darn good in my pocket.

It's a really tricky one to me.

If the difference in price is because, in Elsewhereistan, the company can fire lazy workers - I'm happy to have the extra $40.

But if the difference is because, in Elsewhereistan, the company can run a company store, fire anyone who reports safety violations, and doesn't have to ventilate the room where the uppers are glued to the soles, that $40 is blood money and I don't want it.

Fair Trade certification helps a lot.

[AFPheonix]

People in countries that are typically outsourced for manufacturing will work for far less, but they also have smaller living expenses than we do here. The cost for land and buildings can also be much cheaper in other, less developed countries than in the US, too. I don't think outsourcing can be laid entirely at the feet of unions. There's a lot of economic factors at play including treaties between nations.

The reality is that we as an economy are moving away from manufacturing and into service-oriented jobs. There are more service professionals in the workforce than there ever has been in history. It may be a rocky transition but it will need to be made.

[Boozy]

The reality is that we as an economy are moving away from manufacturing and into service-oriented jobs. There are more service professionals in the workforce than there ever has been in history. It may be a rocky transition but it will need to be made.

The problem is that service economies are built like a house of cards. In order to produce wealth, you have to produce something physical. If all of America's stuff is being produced elsewhere, its wealth depends on its ability to manage and control smaller production economies of independent nations.

This has led to US involvement in wars and skirmishes throughout Central America and Southeast Asia.

Service economies are also dependent on oil for shipping (if nothing is made here, they need to ship the goods in). Which leads to US involvement in the Middle East.

It would be better for world peace and the environment if the US actually started producing their own goods again, and shipping in raw materials only if necessary.

[purplecat41877]

I'm in a union where I work. The main problem with the union I'm in is when coworkers call the union just because they didn't get their way on something.:mad:

For example, I had a former coworker threaten to call the union on me if I didn't transfer her calls to her register from then on. She even told me that I was nobody and that I was just running the front.:mad:

[Dreamstalker]

If you think unions are bad, then feel free to work sixty hour weeks on third-world level pay, with no paid holidays and no employee benefits, and no protection from unscrupulous employers.
Exactly. Of course the ex has said "those are bogus reasons"...ok, you can work 100 hours a week for no pay then. The last job he worked at (construction, non-union) fired him for a trumped-up reason, he could have rightfully pursued that but didn't.

I'm pro, a relative of mine helped start the coal miners' union. Not to say I think they're perfect (as the ex seems to think).

I always wonder what would have happened if I had still held my union membership when working at the game store...some of the stuff the guy got away with wasn't exactly kosher (wrt breaks, time clock, etc).

[BlaqueKatt]

Flint's a near ghost town due to GM sending jobs overseas to save costs rather than paying solid wages


GM workers were receiving $46.17($29.15 cash wages and $17.02 benefits) per hour-is that a "solid wage" or extortion?

This wage information is directly from General motors (http://www.media.gm.com/division/uaw/gm_wages.htm)-the data (http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf)comparing what the "big three"(Ford, GM and Chrysler)-UAW plant workers make compared to the US based plants for Honda, Nissan, and Toyota-non-union-there is a huge difference between them.

this article (http://www.dailycardinal.com/article/14290) details the Tyson foods strike here in WI back in 2003(it failed BTW, after 11 months)

Some of the concessions Tyson Foods is demanding include a two-tier pay scale cutting hourly rates for new hires from $11.10 to $9(1) and a four-year pay freeze for current workers(2). They also want to enact a freeze on pension benefits and to eliminate them entirely for new hires(3). Health care premiums and deductibles would be increased, taking up to $4,600 a year out of families’ pockets(4). Tyson Foods also wants to eliminate a health care supplement for retirees(5), cutting sick leave and disability benefits by more than half(6), reducing vacation benefits by 33 percent(7) and eliminating severance protections(8). Currently, strikers are receiving $100 a month from the UFCW Local 538 strike fund, so they rely heavily on donations.

I'm going to address these one at a time:

1-this would not affect anyone currently working, only new hires
2-this would be done to bring current wages in line with other plants that have a lower payscale-due to location, size, etc.
3-every job I've ever worked you did not receive any kind of pension until you had worked for 1 to five years-why do new hires deserve a pension?
4-my insurance premiums for a family at the call center were $4800 per year, and that is before deductibles of $1000 per person.
5-why are people that no longer work for the company getting the company to pay for health care?
6-actual numbers are not given so this may or may not be reasonable-not enough info to judge.
7-how many jobs have severance pay if you get terminated?
8-for the 11 month strike workers made $1100-if they had been a new hire @ $9/hour @ 40 per week they lost out on $14,740-they gained nothing from the strike, they only hurt themselves.

this was not a strike done for any reason other than the greed of the workers, difference between the union's starting wage and the one the employer wanted is less than $5000 per year, at my $10 per hour job the state/feds take more than that away from me.



If you think unions are bad, then feel free to work sixty hour weeks on third-world level pay, with no paid holidays and no employee benefits, and no protection from unscrupulous employers.

Perfect example of the "black or white" fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html)

there are labor laws now-yes the unions fought for them, but they are law, if all unions went away tomorrow the laws would not.

That said, the unions do far more good than harm, and bagging them out while enjoying the benefits they fought hard to get for us is hypocrisy of the highest order.


President Bush signed the first law to raise federal minimum wage in over 12 years-he fought hard for that, he is viewed by many to have done nothing good while in office-is that hypocrisy?

nope check your definition of the word.


hypocrisy

noun
1. an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction
2. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

[Evandril]

Exactly. Of course the ex has said "those are bogus reasons"...ok, you can work 100 hours a week for no pay then. The last job he worked at (construction, non-union) fired him for a trumped-up reason, he could have rightfully pursued that but didn't.

I'm pro, a relative of mine helped start the coal miners' union. Not to say I think they're perfect (as the ex seems to think).

I always wonder what would have happened if I had still held my union membership when working at the game store...some of the stuff the guy got away with wasn't exactly kosher (wrt breaks, time clock, etc).

Look into the railways, if you want to see what a union can 'do' for a company...There is a reason that air travel won, and it wasn't because they were better...It was because they could actually make a *profit* and still pay their workers what they demanded. There might be some good unions out there, but I've not run across them, personally...Most seem more concerned about making money than the welfare of the company itself...Which tends to mean the company doesn't prosper much.

[fireheart17]

I'm in a union where I work. The main problem with the union I'm in is when coworkers call the union just because they didn't get their way on something.:mad:

For example, I had a former coworker threaten to call the union on me if I didn't transfer her calls to her register from then on. She even told me that I was nobody and that I was just running the front.:mad:

Three simple words for my situation: Enterprise. Bargaining. Agreement.

Basically, work isn't anti-union, but rather they work by the Enterprise bargaining agreement and at every induction, try and encourage people to join. The fees get taken out according to the hours you work a week...no hours, no fees. (It's usually about $5 for me). Of course, the managers may not always enforce it, at which point we can THEN call the union.

And yes, they have helped out quite a bit :D

[Mr Slugger]

Personally I think unions are a good thing, even though I've never worked in a union job, and I don't think every industry needs unions. I think there's jobs like miners, electricians, laborers, plumbers that need unions. Jobs that are sometimes either dangerous or don't stay in one place forever. The union helps in moving these people to their next "job"

Do I think you need a union for a job at payless shoes? No. However in the case of a company like walmart they have done things to make things better for their employees (not enough in my opinion) because while they're not so fearful of say one walmart unionizing I'm sure they fear say a whole state of walmart unionizing, and if they don't treat their employees with some respect that could happen. And closing stores that unionize can only go so far, they do lose money doing that at some point they'll piss off more than workers, and I think in canada the government went after walmart because they closed stores.

So like I said I think there's jobs that need unions, there's jobs I don't think you need a union for, but so long as those jobs fear unions coming in things should be good.

[AdminAssistant]

I used to be ambivalent towards unions, but now I'm rather grateful.

Simply put, I work for a University, but my paycheck comes from the State. My state is pretty much broke. It's possible that they may furlough state employees, including those who work at this university. However, the TA's for this State have a statewide union that makes sure that all of us are paid the same, regardless of institution. As the only unionized work force on campus, and since we are student workers, that makes a furlough somewhat unlikely.

[BlaqueKatt]

and we just lost another 850+ jobs due to unions-they're being sent to oklahoma-from a company that was set to add another 600 jobs-why?


Mercury Marine had asked for changes to a four-year contract it signed a year ago. The company had said workers would see no pay cuts under its proposal, but the union said workers were asked give up 2 percent pay raises in each of the last two years of the contract. The average hourly wage now is about $20, the union said. The proposal also called for lower wages for new hires and workers called back from layoffs, and changes in pension benefits that workers said would have made retirement unaffordable.

now they're closing down.



If Mercury Marine, a subsidiary of Lake Forest, Ill.-based Brunswick Corp., shuts down the Fond du Lac plant, it would mean an annual loss of $353 million in workers earnings and an additional 5,900 in lost jobs due to the impact on suppliers, government and business in the area, according to the Fond du Lac County Economic Development Corp.


so they cost the state a total of 7,350 jobs-why their wages are higher than my husband is getting with a bachelor's degree with nothing more than a high school education-but they wanted more-now they get nothing, and the state loses out as well-keep up the great work.

[muses_nightmare]

I'm not against all unions by any means, but you have to look at them individually. I used to work for a casino which was unionized, our union sucked Essentially it only did any good for employees who had been working there for years, anyone under at least 2 years got screwed. Though, that was probably due to the poor barganing on the part of the Union reps, or perhaps something to do with the company itself in barganing. The contract we had was awful. and the pay wasn't horrible, but it wasn't very good either, especially for the dealers (IMHO), even those who had been working there for 5+ years weren't making over $10/h, which in BC isn't much. I made more per hour working at a gas station.

Okay, going to stop before I get into a rant about the general crappyness of the place.

[protege]

Anyone who thinks unions are good...obviously hasn't driven around SW PA anytime. We were once the steel capital of the US. Seriously, at one time, everything metal had some Pittsburgh steel in it. Now, all of that is gone--steel production is a former shadow of what it once was. Nearly every small town had some sort of mill, prep plant, or mine. Most of those towns...are now ghost towns.

The reason? Simple. Unions had used strikes to drive wages up, and ensure that the plants were never modernized. By the late 1970s, cheaper steel from overseas started coming in, and caused prices to fall. Because our steel cost more, the plants eventually closed, and killed our economy. By the time the steel companies did something, it was too late.

...and it wasn't just Pittsburgh either. Eventually, Pittsburgh seems to be coming back. But, the smaller towns--McKeesport, Hazelwood, Aliquippa, Duquesne, to name a few--haven't been so fortunate.

Oh, and let's not forget about "Jock" Yablonski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Yablonski). For those who don't know, he wanted to clean up the coal miner's union, which at that time, was very corrupt. After opposing the then-president, he, along with his family, was murdered in 1969.

I guess my views of unions are tainted a bit. Not surprising, considering where I live. (I guess I should mention that I witnessed several mine strikes during the 1980s, a few of which were violent! The last one I remember, involved miners blocking roads, and hurling rocks at cars...most of whom had no involvement with the company! Grandpa was politically connected in that town, so they left us alone.)

I admit though, unions once had a purpose--now, they're a relic of the past. Are they really necessary now?

[bunnyboy]

I have only a few problems with Unions, and one of the biggest is the whole idea of "Union shops". IIRC the term is basically for any company which unionizes and makes it where ALL workers are unionized... experienced this in my last job as a Security Guard... most useless union ever, represented both that company and the company I had worked with previously...previous company was actually able to get in essence workers choice (ie workers can be members if they wish) while the one i was with at the time was a union shop... meaning if i had stayed with the one previous I could have chosen to unionize (which would have been better from what I've seen rather than get told sign here and here or look for another job.

so yeah big problem there, a business can't tell a union to piss off, but an employee can't tell a union to piss off if it's a shop.


Oh and I don't think anyone's stated this yet, ever wonder why many unions get a bad rep... one compound word, blacklisting... do your job well and make the lazy jagoffs look bad and you get the fun of paying dues without having representation...

Of course living in the Reddest of Blue states I can't come out and say it, but Unions nowadays are pretty much a relic of the past which keeps the hard workers down with blacklisting, and lets those who just want to coast through.

AAAAAND as a bonus, wonder why some grocery stores cost more... see if their distribution center is unionised... the one I did security for was pretty much local and the cost of food at these places was damn near 50% higher than any of the others... why... well you see according to the union for the warehouse workers, actually making a whole box of melons unsellable by eating half of one (esentially stealing) and leaving the rind and other half in the box was something that just wasn't enough to get fired for... multiply that by about 40 different items (some of which are whole pallets) and you'll see why unions in some ways HAVE messed up our economy a little.